WHY they're announced is kind of besides the point that they were.
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Doctor Who Series 10 |OT| He's Back, and It's About Time
- Thread starter tomtom94
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WHY they're announced is kind of besides the point that they were.
The only way I could see anything happening with the Valeyard in the next couple of episodes would be if the next show runner wanted him as a character during their run, and as the lore says the Valeyard is born between regenerations they would need to be introduced during one.
Though thinking about it the Valeyard was supposed to be an incarnation of the Doctor from somewhere between his 12th and final regeneration. While we know the Doctor is on more than his 12th regeneration, he is currently the 12th "Doctor" and not some other form of himself. So if they did want to use him as a character I can see how they would work that in if they wanted to.
That or it's like the one part of Doctor Who that Moffat hasn't messed with yet, so he's going out with a bang.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Is it confirmed that Pearl's leaving? She's been the best companion since Donna and in clear contention for best companion of the show. It'd be a shame to move on from her so quickly.
paradox121
Member
Loved that. You can see why Moffat keeps returning to the Cybermen - when you get the story right it can be so damn good. Its a very small change, but making it so that people are undergoing 'conversion' not because they want to be upgraded but purely because this is a dying population desperate to stay alive, makes it work so well. I love the slow reveal of all the elements of the Mondasian Cybermen, like the singsong voice and the cloth masks that gradually get eye and mouth holes and Bill's replacement heart. I know a lot of people were disappointed that they revealed so much, but I think knowing what's coming works in the episode's favour.
That goes for Simm's Master too. I twigged about halfway through who he was (the trouble with Doctor Who and British TV in general is that if you don't think "Oh, that's that guy from that other show!" then it probably means its someone under prosthetics) but again knowing its the Master befriending Bill completely changes the tone. I think the Simm Master is very much about the long game, and going to such lengths just to screw over the Doctor and his future self seems perfect.
As for the future Doctor turning up next week, I'm doubtful it'll be a substantial appearance if he/she does. Mainly because you kind of what Chibnall to have first writing credits for his new Doctor, and having them play an important role in proceedings rather than just an epilogue type deal like with Moffat and Smith would probably be too complicated. This does give Moffat the opportunity to basically do a prolonged version of what RTD did though - have next week be 12's tragic demise and then have a 'farewell tour' at Christmas.
That goes for Simm's Master too. I twigged about halfway through who he was (the trouble with Doctor Who and British TV in general is that if you don't think "Oh, that's that guy from that other show!" then it probably means its someone under prosthetics) but again knowing its the Master befriending Bill completely changes the tone. I think the Simm Master is very much about the long game, and going to such lengths just to screw over the Doctor and his future self seems perfect.
As for the future Doctor turning up next week, I'm doubtful it'll be a substantial appearance if he/she does. Mainly because you kind of what Chibnall to have first writing credits for his new Doctor, and having them play an important role in proceedings rather than just an epilogue type deal like with Moffat and Smith would probably be too complicated. This does give Moffat the opportunity to basically do a prolonged version of what RTD did though - have next week be 12's tragic demise and then have a 'farewell tour' at Christmas.
The original cybermen were the mondasian. New who muddied it with the alternate earth cybus men whom then took up residence on our universe and have been the only ones used since in new who.
The audio Spare Parts is still Imo the best genesis of mondasian cybermen.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
One thing that did irritate me in this was that moff went to great lengths with that flashback to say that the doctor would be watching when Bill was uneasy with working with the master, but in the end it wasn't her fault or the Doctor's, Bill was the one who blurted out that she was human when the Doctor had already arrived to try to defuse the situation.
The originals, whereas the ones used since Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel and throughout the RTD era are from an alternate dimension.
The originals, whereas the ones used since Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel and throughout the RTD era are from an alternate dimension.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Dr Zhivago
Member
I think Neil Gaiman said the cybermen in that episode were the result of Mondas cybermen and the Cybus ones joining forces.
Hambulance
Member
Good episode, would have been better if the thumbnail from a recommended youtube video didn't spoil the end.
APZonerunner
Member
It's all a bit weird now, but the way I see this now is this:
1) Cybermen develop naturally on Mondas as the Mondasian people struggle to survive. Mondas is basically a twin planet to Earth with a very similar ecosystem and its indigenous race more or less identical to humans. (Big Finish story Spare Parts)
2) At some point prior to this, a ship departs Mondas /before/ the cyber stuff reaches its natural conclusion in parallel to that on Mondas itself - and we joined that ship this week. It's possible The Master used his knowledge of natural events on Mondas to 'help' the Mondasian colony ship along, too.
3) The events on Mondas are mirrored on a parallel Earth, but with the reasoning for their creation less desperation and more evil/maniacal (and Davros-like), resulting in a more militant style of Cybermen with the same basic setup. (Rise of the Cybermen) There are key differences though, like Parallel Cybermen being a human brain in an 'immortal' metal exoskeleton (again, fairly Dalek-like), where Mondasian ones are more whole humans encased in metal.
4) At some point in the far future the two species of Cybermen encounter each other, ally, and eventually merge before waging war across the galaxy. (Nightmare in Silver). We know they're merged not only because of author comments but also because the Cybermen in that episode resemble the Lumic/Parallel Earth ones but also have traits and skills associated with the Mondas Cybermen including a weakness to gold and (as seen in Death in Heaven, which features the same style of Cybermen) entire bodies being encased in their armor rather than just brains.
plagiarize
Banned
I'd love Moffat to finally grow the balls to properly kill a companion. The closest he came was Danny Pink. Bill is amazing and it would hurt so much, but it clearly shows her face undeformed beneath the face cloth thing and obviously she still has emotions.
It's far too brutal. I mean, maybe this is just further evidence that Moffat learnt how to really get the show right in this last season... But I guess we will find out next week. He always nailed the second to last episode but had way more trouble with the final part.
I've really enjoyed this season and it's classic style of stories so far. I hope he sticks the landing.
It's far too brutal. I mean, maybe this is just further evidence that Moffat learnt how to really get the show right in this last season... But I guess we will find out next week. He always nailed the second to last episode but had way more trouble with the final part.
I've really enjoyed this season and it's classic style of stories so far. I hope he sticks the landing.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Amy was killed by a weeping Angel and Clara was killed too, so it's like companions haven't been killed before.
Although none as brutally as one being turned into a Cyberman. Would be a nice twist to end this season and Capaldi's time as the Doc.
Although none as brutally as one being turned into a Cyberman. Would be a nice twist to end this season and Capaldi's time as the Doc.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Amy and Clara had hyper-copout meaningless "deaths".
If there are no take-backsies next ep, this is the first real one.
plagiarize
Banned
Yep.
Moffat 'kills' companions in ways that give them long lives afterwards. It's not really death.
As I say, Danny Pink is the nearest he came to properly killing a companion and that's more because he wasn't really a companion. Even then that 'death' was undone. Bill already died and got brought back once. Moffat is likely going to Moffat here.
forgeforsaken
Member
They are going to rescue Bill and she's going to end up with one of Doctor's hearts, which leads to him slowly dying and regenerating. That's my prediction.
Why do the "colonists" stay on the bottom of the ship? Razor tells Bill that there was an expedition to floor 507 but they vanished and therefore there must be some terrible foe that they have to become Cybermen to survive but he could be lying.
Maybe he killed the expedition to make the people on the bottom floor take the risky step of becoming Cybermen?
Maybe there is some other reason they don't go up or maybe there is some actual foe they face.
Also how did the Master get on the ship in the first place and why is he there? Did he follow the breadcrumbs of Cybermen history back in time and realised it all started on this ship? Why would he interfere in this way? Is he just interested in watching evil happen or is he making it happen?
Maybe he killed the expedition to make the people on the bottom floor take the risky step of becoming Cybermen?
Maybe there is some other reason they don't go up or maybe there is some actual foe they face.
Also how did the Master get on the ship in the first place and why is he there? Did he follow the breadcrumbs of Cybermen history back in time and realised it all started on this ship? Why would he interfere in this way? Is he just interested in watching evil happen or is he making it happen?
Spectromixer
Member
I could see The Doctor having some plan to save CyberBill and her ending up sacrificing herself instead.
Speaking of which, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this but Razor's exact words were "silence", which cannot be a coincidence, right?
plagiarize
Banned
I think the expedition to floor 507 just haven't come back yet. Time dilation and all.
Also, if this episode could also be called Genesis of the Cybermen then the next episode looks like Rememberence of the Cybermen, and that would work for me.
first doctor references, warring factions
Solid enough theory, especially since they specifically referenced Bill's heart (otherwise redundant since, you know, she had a huge hole in her)
plagiarize
Banned
Presumably a full conversion would be more than just her already replaced heart and the pain inhibitor, but I guess we will find out.
Oh shit. You might actually be onto something here. Especially since the episode made a reference to how "humans have no backup" for their heart.
Although, how would this work if she's had a full conversion and not just a cyber heart transplant?
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
Twist: It'll be Missy's heart in her last act of redemption. There's six hearts between the three timelords, it's a pick and mix really.
Bits N Pieces
Member
I know I'm going to go against the grain here but I don't like Bill as a companion, I just find her really annoying.
I'm not a complete callous bastard though and it would he a horrendous way for her to go if they can't reverse what's happened to her but with a new Doctor I want a new companion, except Nardole - he can stay in it forever.
I'm not a complete callous bastard though and it would he a horrendous way for her to go if they can't reverse what's happened to her but with a new Doctor I want a new companion, except Nardole - he can stay in it forever.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I stopped watching Doctor Who since that skinny bloke went away. Think his name was Matt.
Is it still worth watching with this new Doc?
Is it still worth watching with this new Doc?
yeah, although his last episode is literally next week!
Yes. It's been a very uneven run but then again so was Matt's - both Capaldi and Smith though in themselves were good Doctors.
Personally if that's your situation, I'd just start with Season 10 episode 1 and run through this lot, see how he feels to you. It's fairly standalone and the references you miss, you can fill in the blanks. Then go back to S8 if you liked it.
I've enjoyed S10 far more overall than S8 or S9, the excellent penultimate S9 episode not withstanding
plagiarize
Banned
Yeah, agreed. Although the monk trilogy was weak after the first part.
I think it would be pretty awesome for Bill to just be screwed from this point onwards, and the Doctor also regenerating alone on an icy planet. Maybe I'm hankering for some real dark, consequences that I haven't seen from Moffat before. Maybe something half as dark as Lucie Miller/To the Death for those that have listened to the Eighth Doctor Adventures.
I also can't decide which is more tragic, the Doctor failing to convert Missy to turn good or the Doctor actually succeeding to make her good but she immediately regenerates into something real evil that just resets all the Doctor's efforts. Either way the way this resolves is probably going to suck for him.
Also if I had to rate Bill I think she's been decent. I feel there is not really much to her in terms of depth or development but at least her personality was likeable. Hard to do too much with just one series I guess and not everyone can be a Donna, so Bill is just decent to me.
I also can't decide which is more tragic, the Doctor failing to convert Missy to turn good or the Doctor actually succeeding to make her good but she immediately regenerates into something real evil that just resets all the Doctor's efforts. Either way the way this resolves is probably going to suck for him.
Also if I had to rate Bill I think she's been decent. I feel there is not really much to her in terms of depth or development but at least her personality was likeable. Hard to do too much with just one series I guess and not everyone can be a Donna, so Bill is just decent to me.
Mutanthands
Member
It just seems too mean for what is meant to be a "family" show. Personally, i think
The Pilot will come back for her.
plagiarize
Banned
Oh, you could totally do it, but they won't. Remember Adric. That guess is a solid one though. Very Moffaty.
Agree. You can do dark and fringes of scary, but shooting a companion at point blank range, having her heart destroyed, gaining her friendship only to betray it turning her slowly into a Cyberman and effectively killing her that way - as a father to an eight year old daughter who likes parts of Who, I'm glad she didn't see last night's, and I'll wait to see how it's resolved before showing her the conclusion. It would be a bit too mean.
I don't think they will actually do it and I'm not sure they should.
Mutanthands
Member
Adric was an attempt at a heroic sacrifice and redemption, with a touch of warning against arrogance. I suppose that a sacrifice of some sort can happen, but Bill just being forever screwed is just way too bleak. She's too nice and even keeled. She even learned the right lessons from the Doctor this season, unlike Clara, who went full on wreckless.
I'm going to go with my guess, after a sacrifice of sorts. It's the best happy ending she can get at this point, and gives her everything she deserves (because Bill is awesome).
I still think we could see Twelve attempting Doctor Who's version of suicide for pretty much letting Bill die after he said he'd protect her. And with Simm's Master back on the scene, either his version or Missy will die, meaning the Doctor will ultimately lose his childhood friend. He has nothing to live for, so he 'kills' himself and forces a regeneration.
plagiarize
Banned
Attempt at heroic sacrifice or not, Adric's death was utterly pointless. He saved no one and the spaceship was predestined to crash. He ignored the Doctor telling him not to try and solve it but does it anyway.
It's brutal really.
plagiarize
Banned
No he didn't.
Adric died trying to stopp the Cybermen from killing everyone on Earth.
The spaceship was travelling back through time whatever Adric did. It was predestined to crash and kill the dinosaurs. It had to for humanity to even exist.
He thought he was doing that, yes, but he wasn't. He was ignoring the Doctor and dying completely pointlessly.
Whatever he believed.
boclfon479
Member
Mutanthands
Member
I disagree, there was a point. It was a fable-like warning against arrogance. They knew how the fan-base didn't quite take to Adric. Him not listening led to his pointless death.
They could have done the same with Clara, but no, the Doctor had to betray most of his principles to bring her back as a walking time-zombie.
If they screw Bill, after all she learned, and after the fact she told the Doctor it was a bad idea, I will be pissed, because it's the wrong damn message to send. Doctor Who does not do nihilism.
I could see this happening.
I remember the canonical explanation for 12th's face looking like Caecilius was to choose a face that reminded him of what The Doctor is meant to be. Equally, he may force a regeneration to forget this life, much like he did with the War Doctor.
The regeneration could be caused by him donating his heart, perhaps?
EvilRedEye
Member
If Bill totes dies then none of the major companions from the Twelfth Doctor era would be in play to have their roles reprised later on. I feel like Moffat would be aware of that and not want it. It would be unprecedented in modern Who (and AFAIK the history of the entire show) to have none of the major companions representing that era alive at the end. Moffat left the door open for Clara to perhaps pop up in the final Twelfth Doctor story or something but no more than that since she can't age.
But if they're going for an unusually bleak regeneration as it seemed to be in last night's episode then who knows.
But if they're going for an unusually bleak regeneration as it seemed to be in last night's episode then who knows.
You could probably bring back Amy or Clara for an episode or two between the time they last saw the Doctor and their deaths.
Who knows if those actresses would actually be interested in doing it though.
It seemed to me he was feeling anger over distress. Maybe he was angry at himself, thus his suicide.
While I don't think Moffat will do the full "tour" in quite the same way RTD did, I fully expect him to put in goodbyes to all of the characters he's made. Dorium, Paternoster Gang, Craig, Rigsy etc.
Remember that he got Simon Callow and the Shadow Proclamation to film what were basically glorified cameos for flavour purposes.
Some of them (Gillan, Kingston, Williams) are busy, of course, but the BBC got Peter Jackson and Ian McKellen to film stuff on the set of the Hobbit for a poxy 30-minute comedy special; they have their ways.
Remember that he got Simon Callow and the Shadow Proclamation to film what were basically glorified cameos for flavour purposes.
Some of them (Gillan, Kingston, Williams) are busy, of course, but the BBC got Peter Jackson and Ian McKellen to film stuff on the set of the Hobbit for a poxy 30-minute comedy special; they have their ways.
EvilRedEye
Member
Nah, what I mean is in some kind of future anniversary scenario, the Twelfth Doctor's era would be totally backed into a corner continuity-wise if Bill dies, since both Clara and Bill would have died as young women. All the companions of the modern era could potentially return to the show as older versions of the characters except all of the Twelfth Doctor ones.
It's not like that necessarily can or should have any bearing on the plotting of the show but I feel like it's something that will have at least crossed Moffat's mind.
It's not like that necessarily can or should have any bearing on the plotting of the show but I feel like it's something that will have at least crossed Moffat's mind.
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