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Insomniac Games responds to the QTE criticism in Spider-Man for PS4

gamerMan

Member
I am glad that gamers are speaking out against them. The fact that Insomniac is responding means that gamers have won. If gamers said nothing in Rockstar fiasco, no change would happen.

The next time a developer thinks about using QTEs to drive a setpiece, they are going to look at the backlash that Spider-Man received. The message is clear: Gamers don't like them in any form no matter how many fancy polygons, textures, moves, camera angles, and special effects you layer on top of them. They are not cool.

It's an interesting discussion. Are QTEs ever okay? Is there a way to design blockbuster moments around your core gameplay mechanics instead of separating them out into "Blockbuster moments" ? I'd argue yes.

Button prompts on their own are not bad when they serve to enhance the experience, but the problem is relying on them to drive the coolest parts of your setpieces. The other problem is it doesn't make sense in the context of the gameplay. Like why am I pushing triangle to make Spider-Man duck when I can't duck in the game by hitting the triangle button. It's so random. Honestly, it seems like the Insomniac designed this setpiece because they thought we would get bored if we didn't randomly hit a whole lot buttons feverishly every once and awhile.

It's a weird disconnect between the core gameplay and setpieces. The first Uncharted was filled with loads of non interactive button-mashing Summer Blockbuster moments that felt so isolated from the core game. Quiet frankly, all these moments were rubbish and hindered the overall game.

Naughty Dog went back to the drawing board with Uncharted 2 and said we want to make our summer blockbuster moments playable. They built an entire moving traversal system for the game just to accomplish this goal and it drove the whole development of the game. Their setpieces became a part of their core mechanics instead of being separated out.

God Of War was another game that relied on QTEs for blockbuster moments. Now the team has designed the blockbuster moments around the core gameplay mechanics in the latest God Of War.

As the gaming medium matures, great developers have found a way to design around QTEs and as a result their games have been better.
 
I'm still waiting for all of you backseat game developers to give me a better designed way to handle all of this without any QTE involvement. Do it and go show Insomniac, who are this totally non-establish noob developer and only use QTE because they don't know what you know when you repeat this stuff on a web forum.

I'm not being a backseat game developer. Im not telling them what to do, I'm saying I'd prefer a gameplay based set piece over a QTE based one. I'd rather them figure out how to make an engaging set piece that doesn't boil down to QTEs, because I see them as a cop out.

You're making it out that I said that we're too dumb or something to do a good set piece when I've never said anything of the sort. All I've said is I think QTEs like this are lame and I'd rather something else.

A lot of the defenders in this thread are so full of rage. Instead of understanding that some people just don't like QTEs, a fair amount of people are just resorting to insults and 'well then you go and do it' comments. Yet we're the Ines being told to calm down and to stop over reacting.
 
Cutscenes actually give the devs and players less options. And they're more jarring and break the flow of gameplay. Here, the devs can modulate, alter, and shift controls and scale as needed without being limited to regular gameplay and controls while remaining in-game. This segment switches from the complicated crane rescue to webswinging chase to collapsing interior to contextual dodging/fighting on the helicopter

And further more the two main prompted moments - saving the crane and saving the helicopter - use the same controls that the players use in regular gameplay (X to jump off the crane, shoulder buttons for webs)
Cutscenes absolutely give the player and developers less options, but when the option used is an occasional timed button press, then it might as well just not exist. Its a negligible difference and a wasted opportunity. There is no reason a developer couldn't string along the crane rescue to webswinging chase to ect ect through full game play.

I don't look at that Spider-Man sequence and think "Oh man, that section looks like a blast to play." Because the interaction with the game is so limited and uninteresting. It doesn't really matter that the buttons match what they do when I have full control. All that does is make me wish that they designed that part where I actually have full control so I can feel like what I'm doing is based on skill instead of basically being pre determined unless I stop paying attention.
 

Zurick

Banned
I am glad that gamers are speaking out against them. The fact that Insomniac is responding means that gamers have won. If gamers said nothing in Rockstar fiasco, no change would happen.

The next time a developer thinks about using QTEs to drive a setpiece, they are going to see look at the backlash that Spider-Man received. The message is clear: Gamers don't like them in any form no matter how many fancy moves, camera angles, and special effects you layer on top of them. They are not cool.

It's an interesting discussion. Are QTEs ever okay? Is there a way to design blockbuster moments around your core gameplay mechanics instead of separating them out into "Blockbuster moments" ? I'd argue yes.

Button prompts on their own are not bad when they serve to enhance the experience, but the problem is relying on them to drive the coolest parts of your setpieces. Like why am I pushing triangle to make Spider-Man duck when I can't duck in the game. It's so random. Honestly, it seems like the Insomniac designed this setpiece because they thought we would get bored if we didn't randomly hit a whole lot buttons feverishly every once and awhile.


It's a weird disconnect between the core gameplay and setpieces. The first Uncharted was filled with loads of non interactive button-mashing Summer Blockbuster moments that felt so isolated from the core game.

Naughty Dog went back to the drawing board with Uncharted 2 and said we want to make our summer blockbuster moments playable. They built an entire moving traversal system for the game just to accomplish this goal and it drove the whole development of the game. Their setpieces became a part of their core mechanics instead of being separated out.

God Of War was another game that relied on QTEs for blockbuster moments. Now the team has designed around them in the latest God Of War.

As the gaming medium matures, great developers have found a way to design around QTEs and as a result their games have been better.


I fucking loved Asura's Wrath, which is QTE the game.
 
It's an interesting discussion. Are QTEs ever okay? Is there a way to design blockbuster moments around your core gameplay mechanics instead of separating them out into "Blockbuster moments" ? I'd argue yes..
It's okay in the same way that forced walking and whatnot is okay. Player control, limiting control and the context of what the player can and can't do and why, is a powerful tool for a developer, and we should want devs to experiment rather than yelling at them to never attempt it. Good or bad, it's a net positive for exploring what works and what doesn't in this still-growing medium.

I liken it to early 20th century film makers experimenting with editing to see how to use cuts and edits to tell a visual story.
 

The God

Member
I am glad that gamers are speaking out against them. The fact that Insomniac is responding means that gamers have won. If gamers said nothing in Rockstar fiasco, no change would happen.

The next time a developer thinks about using QTEs to drive a setpiece, they are going to look at the backlash that Spider-Man received. The message is clear: Gamers don't like them in any form no matter how many fancy moves, camera angles, and special effects you layer on top of them. They are not cool.

It's an interesting discussion. Are QTEs ever okay? Is there a way to design blockbuster moments around your core gameplay mechanics instead of separating them out into "Blockbuster moments" ? I'd argue yes.

Button prompts on their own are not bad when they serve to enhance the experience, but the problem is relying on them to drive the coolest parts of your setpieces. Like why am I pushing triangle to make Spider-Man duck when I can't duck in the game by hitting the triangle button. It's so random. Honestly, it seems like the Insomniac designed this setpiece because they thought we would get bored if we didn't randomly hit a whole lot buttons feverishly every once and awhile.

It's a weird disconnect between the core gameplay and setpieces. The first Uncharted was filled with loads of non interactive button-mashing Summer Blockbuster moments that felt so isolated from the core game. Quiet frankly, it was rubbish.

Naughty Dog went back to the drawing board with Uncharted 2 and said we want to make our summer blockbuster moments playable. They built an entire moving traversal system for the game just to accomplish this goal and it drove the whole development of the game. Their setpieces became a part of their core mechanics instead of being separated out.

God Of War was another game that relied on QTEs for blockbuster moments. Now the team has designed around them in the latest God Of War.

As the gaming medium matures, great developers have found a way to design around QTEs and as a result their games have been better.

What setpieces from Uncharted: Drake's Fortune were "non-interactive" button mashing?

God of War isn't even out and we haven't even seen a setpiece from that game. Bad examples to use.
 
I don't look at that Spider-Man sequence and think "Oh man, that section looks like a blast to play." Because the interaction with the game is so limited and uninteresting. It doesn't really matter that the buttons match what they do when I have full control. All that does is make me wish that they designed that part where I actually have full control so I can feel like what I'm doing is based on skill instead of basically being pre determined unless I stop paying attention.
I'd argue the part where we see differently is that I don't think always being in full control and needing gameplay and moments to always be about skill is a good thing for games, or even makes sense depending on the game and situation
 

Balb

Member
It's okay in the same way that forced walking and whatnot is okay. Player control, limiting control and the context of what the player can and can't do and why, is a powerful tool for a developer, and we should want devs to experiment rather than yelling at them to never attempt it. Good or bad, it's a net positive for exploring what works and what doesn't in this still-growing medium.

I liken it to early 20th century film makers experimenting with editing to see how to use cuts and edits to tell a visual story.

Are we still in the experimental phase for QTEs though? They've been around for decades and I personally haven't experienced once example where they enhance a game. On the contrary, they hinder otherwise fantastic games like the original Bayonetta.
 
Makes me sad gamers are so angry. From the Spiderman demo i saw the game looked to balance gameplay with QTE's perfectly, but according to the angry vocal community that you MUST LISTEN TO OR ELSE demographic iam a moron and should learn to hate QTE's
 

Hindl

Member
Sounds fine to me. There are certain sequences and setpieces in games that wouldn't be possible if it wasn't a QTE. I'm fine with that as long as it's used sparingly, a little spectacle never hurt anyone. Or you go all the way in the other direction and get Asura's Wrath, which is also good. It's basically games that fall between these two where QTEs are grating
 

Black_Red

Member
It isn't just the QTE, the whole segment looked too scripted, except for the combat that had slow motion for you to press the counter button, and that is basically another form of QTE.


They probably should have shown some free traversal instead of only a set piece.
 

ElFly

Member
It's okay in the same way that forced walking and whatnot is okay. Player control, limiting control and the context of what the player can and can't do and why, is a powerful tool for a developer, and we should want devs to experiment rather than yelling at them to never attempt it. Good or bad, it's a net positive for exploring what works and what doesn't in this still-growing medium.

I liken it to early 20th century film makers experimenting with editing to see how to use cuts and edits to tell a visual story.

you are talking about QTEs like they are some experiment, but we've had them for close to 20 years

in that time players have largely decided they don't like them, but somehow some game devs did not get the memo
 

Eumi

Member
All I'm getting from this thread is that people who don't like qte's haven't played any games with good qte's.

So many people are throwing around the 'I'd rather actually play it' argument but I really don't see what exactly that's supposed to mean. It comes across as "I'd like to press these buttons assigned to arbitrary actions in this way rather than in that way".

Go play a game like Wonderful 101. Go see what qte's are like when executed with purpose. Huge emotional moments of Wonderful 101 are delivered through qte's, and the specific inputs used have meaning and thought put into them. All the best moments of that game are qte's.

Just because you aren't familiar with good qte's doesn't mean the whole system is worthless. It just means you aren't familiar with actually good qte's.

Or you are and still don't like them. But I'd love to see a case for that that isn't just trotting out the old outdated standby arguments.
 
Are we still in the experimental phase for QTEs though? They've been around for decades and I personally haven't experienced once example where they enhance a game. On the contrary, they hinder otherwise fantastic games like the original Bayonetta.
I'd say they fall within the category of devs exploring how to use player control and gameplay for storytelling. We've been in that phase for almost 20 years now, we're still in that phase considering Edith Finch and the latest God of War. Games is still a relatively very young medium.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Circle is counter / dodge. Yes. He dodges out of the way of that piece of crane that smashes in front of him and also throws out some web to hold it there.
No he doesn't. It hits the wall in front of him and actually going frame by frame, it goes in the opposite direction. :| He was in no danger of being hit by it.
 
"you can't blame people for focusing on the biggest part of the trailer"

except people aren't focusing on that, they are taking a small slice of a small slice of gameplay and have decided the entire game is like that. did ppl think the entire uncharted 4 was going to be spent hanging on to the rope of a truck while being dragged through the mud?

there's a big difference between complaining about QTEs being involved at all and what seems to be circulating on the net, that this game is a on-rails QTE fest. It's really ridiculous. Considering the parts that were QTE weren't even dramatic.
 
Makes me sad gamers are so angry. From the Spiderman demo i saw the game looked to balance gameplay with QTE's perfectly, but according to the angry vocal community that you MUST LISTEN TO OR ELSE demographic iam a moron and should learn to hate QTE's

It's funny because in this thread, the bolded attitude is coming mostly from people in defence of QTEs. Actually haven't seen anyone speaking out against QTEs being childish or aggressive the way some of the defenders have been.
 

sanstesy

Member
QTEs can be appropriately used when they are sprinkled in for a short finishing move like in most Platinum games. One effective QTE works.

But this Spider-Man demo isn't that. Watching a lengthy cutscene with one QTE after another isn't fun at all and completely loses its effect as a result. It just becomes annoying the more you use them in succession.
 
you are talking about QTEs like they are some experiment, but we've had them for close to 20 years

in that time players have largely decided they don't like them, but somehow game devs did not get the memo
Whether you like it or not isn't actually the issue. What matters is figuring how to use the tool effectively rather than discarding it. For example, jump scares in horror movies. People tend to hate those, they're often cheap and unearned, and used as a crutch rather than actually building suspense or tension

And yet some of the best horror movies have jump scares, because the jump scare itself isn't inherently bad. What makes it bad is how it's used, why, and when.

Game design and these elements are the same. And we're still learning the how, why, and when. Player control, when to limit and modulate control and when not to, is as much a part of game design as deciding what to show in camera is for a movie. A game isn't a one way street; the developer is guiding you as much as you're guiding the action onscreen.
 
giphy.gif
 

vivekTO

Member
No he doesn't. It hits the wall in front of him and actually going frame by frame, it goes in the opposite direction. :| He was in no danger of being hit by it.

He would have crashed into that, if he keeps running or the crane could have swing backs and hit him as it is still attached to the ropes. Wouldn't he be dodging that.no??
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
People will find out about the full content of the game sooner or later. But Insomniac have never been dependent on QTE's for their games, so i don't expect that to start now. If they say its a small piece of gameplay, i tend to believe them

Not that i think QTE's are inherently bad, as i love CC2's games, but i don't think the outrage is worth getting outraged about
 
We finally have a chance at getting a good Spider-Man game again after a long, long time and people are really complaining that much about QTE's. What else would you rather have in place to react so fast?
 

Axass

Member
There you go.

QTE in set pieces only.

Much better than just sitting and watching a cutscene.
No.

More isn't always better.

A cutscene where you can relax without the fear of getting a random "game over" due to gaming's stupid version of Simon says is much better IMO.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
No.

More isn't always better.

A cutscene where you can relax without the fear of getting a random "game over" due to gaming's stupid version of Simon says is much better IMO.

You don't get game overs in these QTE's IIRC, just different outcomes
 

ElFly

Member
All I'm getting from this thread is that people who don't like qte's haven't played any games with good qte's.

So many people are throwing around the 'I'd rather actually play it' argument but I really don't see what exactly that's supposed to mean. It comes across as "I'd like to press these buttons assigned to arbitrary actions in this way rather than in that way".

Go play a game like Wonderful 101. Go see what qte's are like when executed with purpose. Huge emotional moments of Wonderful 101 are delivered through qte's, and the specific inputs used have meaning and thought put into them. All the best moments of that game are qte's.

this is a counterexample to me

I almost stopped play W101 because one of the QTEs early on would just not work for me (I think in the second or third level, had to build a rope out of wonders and, it took me seriously like 10 attempts. there must have been something wrong with it or just the timing was too tight) a few other QTEs also were failures on the first try and it only stops the flow of the game

it's a great game. but it would have been way better without QTEs. I think the last QTE, when Wonder Red is yelling the long name of the beam, is good tho, mostly cause it is ridiculous

meanwhile, look at something like Metal Gear Revengeance, by the same devs. the climax after killing Metal Gear excelsus is not a QTE, but just one of the core mechanics of the game amplified x 100 in size. it works, because it is natural in that game. not that MGR doesn't have QTEs in other places, but cutting metal gear excelsius is how it should always be done: through mechanics already in the game. maybe extra dramatized

another example is killing the Boss in MGS3. that's barely a QTE. you have to press the button that shoots the guns in other situations. sure, you cannot move, or aim elsewhere, but it is more inline with what you've done before

We finally have a chance at getting a good Spider-Man game again after a long, long time and people are really complaining that much about QTE's. What else would you rather have in place to react so fast?

normal gameplay? maybe normal gameplay in slow motion? the spiderman trailer starts p well and then it is qte forever time, even for things that spidey had done earlier, like grab a guy with webbing? he did that like five times without QTEs. then for walking through a falling crane?

just let the goddamn crane fall -maybe players can run through it as it falls with regular controls?- and let players try to stop it through normal gameplay

maybe people are disappointed because they will never be able to stop a helicopter from falling without it being a controlled cutscene

it seems like the game will gate those cool moments to QTEs. hell, the devs are saying it, it is for set pieces
 
I never thought they would be a major part of the game but they're worth criticising for being bad. Doesn't matter if it was only 30 seconds of a 10 minute demo, its something that insomniac wanted to put in the game and they look dumb. It would be nice if they came up with something better but the main gameplay loop still seems great.
 
During my E3 appointment for this game, they confirmed that the only QTE moments in that whole demo was the crane scene lol. People need to relax.

So then they chose the only section of the game with QTEs for their demo. That doesn't inspire confidence in the "core game loop" if they think that it's less interesting then a push A for awesome set piece. We'll know for sure when we see the next demo.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
He would have crashed into that, if he keeps running or the crane could have swing backs and hit him as it is still attached to the ropes. Wouldn't he be dodging that.no??
Well yea if he kept running full tilt but he's spiderman. Sticky hands and feet can stop on a dime. I wouldn't count it as a dodge so much him trying to make sure that it causes no more damage to the building it was about to wreck.

We finally have a chance at getting a good Spider-Man game again after a long, long time and people are really complaining that much about QTE's. What else would you rather have in place to react so fast?
A walkthrough of the open world?
 
I'd argue the part where we see differently is that I don't think always being in full control and needing gameplay and moments to always be about skill is a good thing for games, or even makes sense depending on the game and situation
I can see that standpoint, but I don't think a QTE really does anything that can't be done better by taking it further in one direction or the other. You're already making the sequence at least a little skill based by injecting button presses, it's just that they're so simple that the skill level is unnoticeable.

I agree things like forced walking sequences can pace a game and change the tone, but I don't feel like QTEs change the tone all that much from a cut scene. They're paced exactly the same, the only difference is that once and a while it's interrupted by a button press, and if you press that button, then the pace doesn't change at all. Whereas in a forced walking sequence, you still generally have control of your character and can dictate the pace yourself to some extent. If you want to explore the area you're walking through, you can. Or you can just press forward and stay on whatever path the game is leading you down.

I wouldn't say that I think the player needs to be in full control of the character at all times. It's more that I feel like the control given in QTE sequences is so minimal that it doesn't really add anything to the game play.
 

Tutomos

Member
I think they caught people off guard in what they've shown especially since their last game from the main team was Sunset Overdrive. However feeling towards QTE is a subjective thing. Some people hate it but some people like it. It's not going to hurt the sales, it might even help the sales.
 
OP, care to make the effort to add another sentence or two to your post?

imgur is blocked at my work, and several other workplaces.

There you go.

QTE in set pieces only.

Much better than just sitting and watching a cutscene.
Happy to see this. Curious what exactly they said about it, though.
 
I am glad that gamers are speaking out against them. The fact that Insomniac is responding means that gamers have won. If gamers said nothing in Rockstar fiasco, no change would happen.

The next time a developer thinks about using QTEs to drive a setpiece, they are going to look at the backlash that Spider-Man received. The message is clear: Gamers don't like them in any form no matter how many fancy polygons, textures, moves, camera angles, and special effects you layer on top of them. They are not cool.

It's an interesting discussion. Are QTEs ever okay? Is there a way to design blockbuster moments around your core gameplay mechanics instead of separating them out into "Blockbuster moments" ? I'd argue yes.

Button prompts on their own are not bad when they serve to enhance the experience, but the problem is relying on them to drive the coolest parts of your setpieces. The other problem is it doesn't make sense in the context of the gameplay. Like why am I pushing triangle to make Spider-Man duck when I can't duck in the game by hitting the triangle button. It's so random. Honestly, it seems like the Insomniac designed this setpiece because they thought we would get bored if we didn't randomly hit a whole lot buttons feverishly every once and awhile.

It's a weird disconnect between the core gameplay and setpieces. The first Uncharted was filled with loads of non interactive button-mashing Summer Blockbuster moments that felt so isolated from the core game. Quiet frankly, all these moments were rubbish and hindered the overall game.

Naughty Dog went back to the drawing board with Uncharted 2 and said we want to make our summer blockbuster moments playable. They built an entire moving traversal system for the game just to accomplish this goal and it drove the whole development of the game. Their setpieces became a part of their core mechanics instead of being separated out.

God Of War was another game that relied on QTEs for blockbuster moments. Now the team has designed the blockbuster moments around the core gameplay mechanics in the latest God Of War.

As the gaming medium matures, great developers have found a way to design around QTEs and as a result their games have been better.
Did you just compare mods being blocked to ppl on the internet being upset about qtes being in set pieces?
Gamers have won..won what? They aren't taking those out because the majority aren't bothered by them take a look at the specific tweet and wonder why they responded
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
It's not like Insomniac have a habit of making design decisions just to annoy people.

How about people complaining give them the benefit of the doubt?
 
First impressions are everything. The fact they didn't show any open world Spidey physics is worrying, particularly when it's been a core complaint of Spidey game fans for years.
 

AudioEppa

Member
This was obvious from the beginning.

Dont know why people needed to make such a big deal out of it.


Because gamers like them need their daily and weekly drama about anything. But oh it's giving "feedback" Ok.

Hey insomniac if you're reading this. I got some feedback for you. Good job on what I've seen so far. Btw, make sure there's a lot of super cinematic QTE and long cutscenes.

Give us what we REALLY need. Don't make it a boring swing around goofy arcade gameplay like the old ass days. You have all that power. Make us feel 'emotion' as the man behind Spider-Man.
 
maybe you guys should consider that Insomniac's showing was meant to grab more people than just the kinds of enthusiast gamers who'd prefer an open world walkthrough w/dev commentary over the goddamn stunning shit that they showed
Man they know that idk why ppl acting like e3 was new to them. Same reason you don't see them roaming around in days gone,or anthem,insert open world game here. Masses don't wanna see that
 
That twitter comment is so douchey like seriously

People need to get the fuck over themselves.


Keep going as you are insomniac great gaming studio I remember the time they won an award for great working environment
 

silva1991

Member
It's not like Insomniac have a habit of making design decisions just to annoy people.

How about people complaining give them the benefit of the doubt?

And Insomniac made the most fun open world game this gen(Sunset Overdrive)

I have no worries.

Feed me those QTE moments, Insomniac
 

chadtwo

Member
What's your point? It's a social media answer, QTEs are QTEs, news at 11.

My point is that it very obviously wasn't a non-answer, and if your summary of his response is "QTEs are QTEs" then apparently this still escapes you. What is so hard to understand about the content of the response?

1. The QTEs are particular to "set-piece blockbuster moments"
2. The "core gameplay loop" will not be these moments, but rather "combat and traversal"
3. QTEs will therefore play a minor role in the game.

This is a substantive response. It produces new information and is non-circular.
 
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