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Unexpectedly Cruel Moments (That Took You Out Of The Narrative)

SOLDIER

Member
Piranha 3D is clearly an intentional B horror movie that's mostly entertaining, but one scene went a bit overboard in the brutality department.

When the one jock douchebag is trying to escape from the hoard of piranha tearing apart a beach party, he gets onboard a waveracer and proceeds to straight up murder a bunch of people in the way of his motor.

The absolute worst is when a girl's hair gets caught on the motor blades, only to eventually have her entire scalp AND face torn off.

I think that asshole got away scott free too. I don't remember him getting his compuppance at all.
 
Don't watch Outlander.

The various rape and assauly scenes would have gotten me to stop watching, if my wife hadn't wanted to keep watching.

And then they stop happening, which is good.

It's interesting that it bothered you but not your wife.


One death doesn't negate the century-old WASP values machine that is Hollywood. Hollywood has been operating on it for so long that writers today aren't even aware that their writing is being moulded by it.

99% of deaths in Hollywood movies are moralizing. The character who dies will always have some anti-WASP behaviour that justifies their death.

Women in mainstream movies are often written to be protected and for little harm to come to them. I've written it before but John Wick is a perfect example of a movie where men are totally disposable as target practice but the one female assassin can't be killed by either protagonist and is instead captured, only to break free, kill more men, and then finally dies by multiple assailants in a mid shot forgoing individual blame. IIRC

Hollywood or any screenwriter gets freaked out when to comes to violence against women. You can't do Kill Bill with a male protagonist hacking up dozens of women with a sword.

Hero Women can kill men. Hero Women can kill women. Hero Men cannot kill women. It sickens the audience. Even Bordello of Blood was offensive where the male heros were killing vampire women.

Tarantino himself knows this rule and he subverted it in Hateful Eight by making the female antagonist the most horrible person on the planet to justify why the can get rid of her by the end.

I don't know if the female audience even notices or cares about it as much as the male audience does.
 
Bone Tomahawk. I mean what the fuck man.

I think that was done for political reasons. You have a white cast going into a indigenous enclave. They had to get the audience 100% on the side of the rescuers. Up to that point it is a white person who stole from them so it could be read that they simply stole back.

The movie doesn't even believe that after the whole split scene happens that the audience is on that side so they need to show you the blind women at the end to seal it.
 
"Offed" would have been merciful compared to what she got instead.

I feel like Nasu wanted to channel Urobuchi in this instance, except Urobuchi never tortures his characters for no reason.

Seriously, dude is a master class in making you feel sorry for characters, even the incredibly evil ones.

Nasu didn't actually write the early parts of Grand Order.

I don't think he actually gets involved until, like, the Camelot chapter I think
 

Goodstyle

Member
If Zara was a dude, no one would give a shit about them dying or how they died. I think she was the first named female character to die in any Jurassic film, so I understand the backlash. People just are uncomfortable with seeing a female character get hurt in a film, unless they "deserve it".
 
Runner-up goes to Fate/Grand Order, an ongoing mobile game that also had a promotional anime that served as the backdrop for the main story:

https://youtu.be/mzIwVi0kdfo

The character in question is Olga, who served as the Rin-type authority character with a tsundere attitude. Despite her personality, she was shown as dependable and willing to risk her life to protect her comrades. In the anime's climax, the main villain reveals himself, who was previously a man that Olga admired and loved (romantically?). As if his shocking betrayal wasn't bad enough, he proceeds to entrap Olga inside the glowy Mcguffin, where she will "experience the moment of her death in an infinte loop for all eternity".

Wait, what? That's pretty fucked up.

It only gets even more fucked up as she's screaming and crying for help as she's being slowly dragged toward her Fate (I'd make a pun but this is seriously a bummer). While the main characters do take a moment (as in, a second) to regret what happened, it's never brought up again. In fact, based on what I've read, fans have pestered the writers of the mobile game to create a scenario where Olga can be freed, but they have more or less responded with "She doesn't matter, shut the fuck up already."

When it comes to bad writing in fiction, this is probably my single biggest pet peeve. If you're going to introduce a gruesome moment like this but don't have the characters react accordingly, then you've pretty much shown the cracks in your storytelling.

Well that video clip put a damper on my smile. Also seems really pointless to have a character suffer such a terrible fate and then get mad that people want a way to save them. Like, what's the point of making her experience death for all eternity? You can establish that evil guy is evil without all that. Does the villain get even a somewhat comparable comeuppance?

Plus people in the comments talking about how that's not even the most brutal thing in the Nasuverse. :(
 
You have to look at this through a 1980's lens. This is a love scene. It reads very rapey and creepy now, but that was not the original intent. Deckard isn't using Rachel because she's "a machine," he's falling in love with her. '80s teen comedies were also rife with sex crimes (by today's standards).

Uh, no, Deckard is definitely raping Rachael in that scene. He's not "falling in love" with her; he just wants to fuck her, and very clearly forces her into having sex with him there.

Reminds me a lot of this scene from Hitchcock's Marnie.
 

cuate

Banned
eh. op example didn't shock me at all. eddie had it way worse in jp2, and was far more shocking and brutal. also I don't know what the two kids were even supposed to do in that situation, so i'm not sure why op is mad at them.

edit: oh I see, they got away earlier in the movie, making her have to search for them? sorry, haven't seen the movie.
 
Uh, no, Deckard is definitely raping Rachael in that scene. He's not "falling in love" with her; he just wants to fuck her, and very clearly forces her into having sex with him there.

Reminds me a lot of this scene from Hitchcock's Marnie.

She tries to leave because she does not know if her feelings are hers or Tyrell's nieces'. She doesn't trust herself to make a decision. Its supposed to be tragic that while she might want to have sex with him she doesn't know if it is her making that decision or not. Deckard tries to convince her, because really what else can he do besides have her leave? Its the convincing part we take the issue with. You can read the resolve of that scene that he just takes advantage of her, or that she takes a chance on her emotions and give into them. Its dark shades of grey, but that scene and its built in tragedy is what the entire movie is about. Its a adult movie through and through and that we question that scene makes it memorable and important.
 
That one rape scene in The Hills Have Eyes 2. The hilariously cheesy tone just did not mesh well with how that scene was handled. Seemed like a cheap attempt to maintain the status quo set by the first film.
 

SOLDIER

Member
Well that video clip put a damper on my smile. Also seems really pointless to have a character suffer such a terrible fate and then get mad that people want a way to save them. Like, what's the point of making her experience death for all eternity? You can establish that evil guy is evil without all that. Does the villain get even a somewhat comparable comeuppance?

Plus people in the comments talking about how that's not even the most brutal thing in the Nasuverse. :(

The Fate series is certainly not lacking in garbage human beings (or literal monsters that wear the skin of humans). The people in charge of this story must have thought "We need to raise the stakes, show that this new villain is even eviler then the previous ones!"

Except, as I mentioned before, the bad stuff that happened in prior Fate stories tend to have meaning to them, with a logical conclusion that was given proper catharsis, whether it be a good or bad end.

This feels more needlessly cruel, especially if there are no current plans for them to go back to it. And even if they do, how do you hand-wave what will probably be weeks of literal endless torture?

It doubly sucks because from what I saw in the anime, she was easily the most interesting character, especially compared to the MC, who is the typical plucky shonen and his waifu Servant girl with deadpan personality and rocking boobs.
 

cuate

Banned
oh, i remember being seriously bothered by the way the elder couple died in x-men origins:wolverine. it was so cruel and mean to have them die like that, after they helped logan, who didn't seem the least bothered by their deaths, and to have their house destroyed in a huge explosion, while their fresh corpses were inside, just so logan can look cool while he escapes in a bike. it was so ridiculously inappropriate. what an awful movie.
 

Fat Goron

Member
Logan.

The whole movie.

But especially the needless killing of the friendly family.

This bothered me a lot, not because of the violence itself, but because
it was caused almost directly by Logan and Xavier.

I mean... even considering the context of the movie, and the fact the these characters are far from their highest moments, it seems SO out of character to sacrifice an entire family for a bed.

Thanks, Logan, I wonder why even bother with the water pipe issue...
 
That's the problem with Matthew Vaughn, isn't it? He wraps up all of his disgusting excesses under the guise of "satire." Which would be more credible if the film was, even for a single frame of the film, about criticizing those excesses and not celebrating them at every turn.

Whatever. Kick Ass is fucking terrible too.

Vaughn and Treverrow's brand of immature manchildren cinema is so dull. Fuck them both.

Now you helped me understand why I dislike Kingsman, thank you.
 

Somnid

Member
Diablo 3 in couple places but mostly Deckard Cain. Like was any of that necessary? It didn't set a dark tone because it was so cartoonish and just felt like such a waste of a good character.
 
Well, with horror movies as many of you have mentioned, such moments are intentional and meant to be funny. It's usually action and adventure movies that tend to have jarring cruel moments.

Jurassic World was a good example. However, a ton of action films have scenes of cruelty toward villains and sometimes just bystanders. Sometimes theyre committed by the protagonist! Shit, I remember in the original Total Recall, as Arnold is running through the metro terminal, he intentionally takes cover behind a civlian, then continues to use him as a billet shield, and then throws the now shot up to hell civilian's body at the bad guys to make his escape. A few easier examples would be half of James Bond's actions in the entire bond series, specifically how he ruthlessly executes villains. (Starting with Dr. No)
 
Zara's death is so odd, because it's so disjointed from the rest of the film.

Put another way, Zara's death seems too cartoony for a film that tries to make a Velociraptor getting blown up by a rocket launcher a realistic and emotionally resonate moment.
 
Jesus Christ lmao. What a horrible thing to happen but it's so over the top its hilarious. Man what were they thinking ."Yeah lets have some baby mice just killed by being dropped by a bird. and have them impaled too!"

The bird is a shrike. This is what they do. Shrikes hunt by impaling their prey on thorns or barbed wire or whatever is handy and store their food there as well. The scene isn't over the top, it's just surprising to see it shown with no punches pulled, but it is completely accurate.
 
Zara's death is so odd, because it's so disjointed from the rest of the film.

Put another way, Zara's death seems too cartoony for a film that tries to make a Velociraptor getting blown up by a rocket launcher a realistic and emotionally resonate moment.

Didn't help that the movie kept pushing the message that Bryce Dallas Howard's character should go home and be a family woman. So they viciously kill the only other career corporate woman to send the message home I guess?
 
Hmm, let's see...

I'll start with the awful giant-maggot-rape scene from Galaxy of Terror. I saw that shit as a kid. One of my biggest movie traumas.

The we got Archer kid and girl with big hat from Hunter x Hunter suffering in a way that we didn't see before in that story. This soured the Chimaera Ant arc to me.

Samuel L. Jackson's death on Deep Blue Sea

Owen Wilson on that haunted house shit movie.

The couple from the first Puppetmaster movie.
 
The Fate series is certainly not lacking in garbage human beings (or literal monsters that wear the skin of humans). The people in charge of this story must have thought "We need to raise the stakes, show that this new villain is even eviler then the previous ones!"

Except, as I mentioned before, the bad stuff that happened in prior Fate stories tend to have meaning to them, with a logical conclusion that was given proper catharsis, whether it be a good or bad end.

This feels more needlessly cruel, especially if there are no current plans for them to go back to it. And even if they do, how do you hand-wave what will probably be weeks of literal endless torture?

The point is to shock and upset you.

I watched a show a couple of years ago called Akame ga Kill, whose entire selling point was it's cheap shock value. There was one particularly egregious scene a couple of episodes in where they introduced an entirely new character, your typical genki girl, just so that they could have one of the villains come in five minutes later and skin her alive. Very tasteful.
A lot has been written about the over reliance on sexual titillation in otaku media, not nearly enough about the thinly veiled torture porn.
 
I'm actually going to mention a video game b/c this was in my head as I was playing it recently. In Borderlands 2, which I love, there are these audio tapes in the wildlife exploitation reserve or whatever where this couple is getting tortured by handsome jack while begging for their lives. And it's just really disturbing, and seems way off tone for the game which is, you know r-rated, but generally light and goofy. The point of it I guess is to really, really establish the bad guy as the bad guy, but its not really necessary
 
Thought of another one: Akira

NSFW: http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/c813d1ef31f1dfd9078c9e04c773fc2d1408423050_full.gif

I think at one point the director actually acknowledged and apologized for this. It was especially unnecessary considering she already suffered a violent moment earlier in the movie.

Her death in the manga was far less gruesome by comparison, and was given the proper acknowledgment by characters (Tetsuo).
At least she wasn't kept as a rape slave like in the manga.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Seriously Hollywood (and JoJo guy): leave the fucking dogs alone.

It's an unwritten Hollywood rule that as soon as a dog enters the movie, there's a 99% chance it's going to die. I'm completely desensitized to dog deaths in movies because of this.
 

PSqueak

Banned
It's an unwritten Hollywood rule that as soon as a dog enters the movie, there's a 99% chance it's going to die. I'm completely desensitized to dog deaths in movies because of this.

the percentage is much lower actually.

there is a site that keeps track of it.
 
Yes. Especially the second game, the VN one. Was playing the first chapter and was like "yes finally they might make up for" and then the next thing happens and it's like "fuck now it's even worse."

It didn't really take me out of the experience, though. It's just a really depressing game outside of like one chapter (and even that is just bittersweet considering the context).

The final chapter was just... yeah...
 
Thought of another one: Akira

NSFW: http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/c813d1ef31f1dfd9078c9e04c773fc2d1408423050_full.gif

I think at one point the director actually acknowledged and apologized for this. It was especially unnecessary considering she already suffered a violent moment earlier in the movie.

Her death in the manga was far less gruesome by comparison, and was given the proper acknowledgment by characters (Tetsuo).

Yeah, this has always really bugged me.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Anyway, to contribute something to the topic...

I guess Skyfall and Spectre with Bond straight up raping the French girl in the shower and abusing Monica Belucci's grieving to get some pussy. I mean, Bond has been kinda skirting consent before, but this was multiple steps too far. It's amplified by the facts that the Skyfall girl is shot in literally the next scene she's in and that Monica Belluci was hyped up as 'finally an older Bond girl', only to have her turn out to be a one-time fucktoy with no more than two minutes screentime.
 

Superflat

Member
"we need to show that anyone can die and that this is real danger. Let's just kill a supporting character gruesomely. Whoops, I forgot about following it up with lasting impressions or how it makes sense in the story or its themes!"

I hate sequences like this with a passion, unless rampant violence is central.
 

Ogodei

Member
It's an unwritten Hollywood rule that as soon as a dog enters the movie, there's a 99% chance it's going to die. I'm completely desensitized to dog deaths in movies because of this.

A funny subversion of this is in the anticlimax ending of Amityville Horror. In the family's rush to escape the house at last they leave the dog behind until the husband remembers, goes back in the house, successfully gets the dog, and they leave. Weird subversion where you'd think something would happen, or very nearly happen, to one of them, but it didn't.
 

Maxios

Member
Anyway, to contribute something to the topic...

I guess Skyfall and Spectre with Bond straight up raping the French girl in the shower and abusing Monica Belucci's grieving to get some pussy. I mean, Bond has been kinda skirting consent before, but this was multiple steps too far. It's amplified by the facts that the Skyfall girl is shot in literally the next scene she's in and that Monica Belluci was hyped up as 'finally an older Bond girl', only to have her turn out to be a one-time fucktoy with no more than two minutes screentime.

I've never seen actually seen more than five minutes of Skyfall. Is it as fucked up as the time Sean Connery's Bond raped a woman while lighthearted music played?
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
The latter half episodes of 13 Reasons Why is full of these and turned the show into grief porn. And the writing was already on the decline at that point too.

One of the rare instances where I got initially hooked and turned to hate-watch mode in just one season.

I guess Skyfall and Spectre with Bond straight up raping the French girl in the shower and abusing Monica Belucci's grieving to get some pussy. I mean, Bond has been kinda skirting consent before, but this was multiple steps too far. It's amplified by the facts that the Skyfall girl is shot in literally the next scene she's in and that Monica Belluci was hyped up as 'finally an older Bond girl', only to have her turn out to be a one-time fucktoy with no more than two minutes screentime.
Nobody gets raped in Skyfall, although the circumstances for the sex are incredibly awkward, yes.
 
If Zara was a dude, no one would give a shit about them dying or how they died. I think she was the first named female character to die in any Jurassic film, so I understand the backlash. People just are uncomfortable with seeing a female character get hurt in a film, unless they "deserve it".

Perhaps not, and her being female is a major contributing factor, but importantly it is not the reason.

Her death is in large part problematic specifically because of the film's depictions of women. Her suddenly becoming a man removes the contextual issues surrounding her character and thus dramatically changes how the death is perceived.

The character is presented as unsympathetic and deserving of the death (one that's ostensibly intended to be a crowd pleaser), due to facets of her character that involve traditionally problematic depictions of working women in Hollywood and her (rightfully) being more concerned with her own issues than with babysitting her boss's nephews (who should be able to take care of themselves at their respective ages). And it's the fact that this character receives a death so clearly supposed to be a crowd pleasing punisher, for those reasons, that causes it be so damn questionable.

To go a few steps further, combine the above with:
- Claire's character leaning heavily on Hollywood tropes regarding working women that date back nearly a century (tropes that have very real world origins in actual beliefs that have negatively impacted women in the workplace for decades), such as being presented as being incapable of simultaneously living life as a functional human and being a successful businessperson (and having to have men constantly point it out), as well as:
- the sister constantly telling this extremely successful businessperson that her life can't possibly have meaning until she becomes a mother, a stance which is validated by the movie itself, specifically through Claire's character arc (she grows as a character specifically by learning to develop maternal instincts towards her nephews and by ceasing to be so business-minded)
- and finally, the fact that the only other major female really only exists to 1) give the audience emotional cues and 2) to be Lowery's crush, which is made exceptionally clear when she leaves the movie at the exact point it's revealed he has no chance with her
(there's smaller elements as well, but you get the gist of it)

When you look at it all together it just feels really gross. So it's because of all that context that changing it to a male would in fact diminish the problem.
(for what it's worth though, to me it would still feel pretty out of place with a male character, assuming they weren't specifically shown in a sympathetic light, because it's so damn lengthy and cruel - it felt like outright torture porn)

As an aside, though very much on topic, I think it's also worth noting that:
1) There is only one death in the franchise with the same level of brutality and lengthiness - Dieter Stark's death by Compies in The Lost World, which everyone would probably agree is supposed to be a deliberately punishing death, enacted upon an explicitly deserving character. Stark is never presented sympathetically - he takes joy in electrocuting a small animal for no reason, starts an unnecessary fight with a protagonist, and is shown to be incompetent at his job. None of these unsympathetic depictions are rooted in problematic elements, and they "justify" his lengthy, excruciating, and horrific death, hence why no one takes issue with it. Had Zara been depicted in the same way, or at least if her death-justifying aspects not had a base in sexism, you would have heard much less about it.
(Edit: mind you, I'm not saying that this is the only way to "fix" the scene, just providing an example in which the same scene with a female character would be read differently with different context)

2) Colin Trevorrow himself has some pretty clear issues with sexism, which further solidifies arguments into these sorts of readings into Jurassic World and its scenes. He has stated that he believes the reason women aren't directing blockbusters is because they don't want it enough (a common excuse to explain away lack of women in any and all fields of work), as well as his other works showing deep problems, such as Home Base (the two-line Wikipedia summary alone is grating as fuck).
 

Not

Banned
Yeah, huh, inexplicable and undeserved violence against women in narratives really does it for some creative men
 

Ridley327

Member
That's why it's the best Grind house style movie that came well after the grind house era.

Yeah, it seems weird to include it as a film with an unexpectedly cruel moment, considering how bang-on it is to that whole style of filmmaking. A scene like the kid shooting himself in Planet Terror is a better candidate because that film, like most neosplotation films, are rather toothless compared to their "source material," so that sticks out a lot more than it would in something like Hobo with a Shotgun.
 
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