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[PrivateWHudson]

I don't know what the standards are but that problem was like... second year of high school for me? I think I did geometry, then algebra, then two years of calculus.

Wow, that's crazy. Geometry was middle school, then high school was algebra 1, algebra 2, trig 1, and trig 2. Trig 2 was replaced with pre-calculus for the advanced kids (not me).

 

[Wvrs]

I couldn't simplify my way out of a paper bag these days, my mathematic skills are limited to basic sum calculation. I still graduated from a top university with first class honours. I don't see how algebra is a necessary skill when there are domains of professional life in which you hardly come into contact with abstract maths whatsoever.

 

[cheezcake]

I couldn't simplify my way out of a paper bag these days, my mathematic skills are limited to basic sum calculation. I still graduated from a top university with first class honours. I don't see how algebra is a necessary skill when there are domains of professional life in which you hardly come into contact with abstract maths whatsoever.

If education was strictly about catering to this lowest common denominator attitude you'd be living in a third world country.

 

[Wvrs]

If education was strictly about catering to this lowest common denominator attitude you'd be living in a third world country.

You've misapprehended what I said. We're talking of education at college level (read: adult); I think by that the time you reach adulthood, you should have a tentative enough idea of who you are and what you want out of life to be able to focus on what truly matters to you. At no point did I imply that algebra shouldn't be taught in early education; as broad a range of possible topics as is possible should be taught in that stage, as no-one should be precluded from the opportunity to discover something they love and excel at.

I did algebra back in secondary school, and I understood it pretty well, but mathematics always bored me and so I didn't pursue it further. In the six years since I've never had to solve an alebraic problem or do any maths more difficult than calculating percentages and ratios, the methods and meanings of signs have been forgotten, and if I was forced to solve a problem such as the one in the OP I'd be lost at even interpreting the significance of what I was looking at. And why should I have to know? I's useless to me.

 

[JohnsonUT]

I don't see how algebra is a necessary skill when there are domains of professional life in which you hardly come into contact with abstract maths whatsoever.

Do you agree that there are many domains in which algebra is either an absolute requirement or a prerequisite for other requirements? If so, do you think 15 years of age is the time when we start eliminating large numbers of potential career paths for Americans? In other words, the only people who will become physicists, engineers, chemists, biologists, programmers, economists, etc are those who actively decided to take algebra as an elective as a freshman or sophomore in high school.

 

[cpp_is_king]

You've misapprehended what I said. We're talking of education at college level (read: adult); I think by that the time you reach adulthood, you should have a tentative enough idea of who you are and what you want out of life to be able to focus on what truly matters to you. At no point did I imply that algebra shouldn't be taught in early education; as broad a range of possible topics as is possible should be taught in that stage, as no-one should be precluded from the opportunity to discover something they love and excel at.

I did algebra back in secondary school, and I understood it pretty well, but mathematics always bored me and so I didn't pursue it further. In the six years since I've never had to solve an alebraic problem or do any maths more difficult than calculating percentages and ratios, the methods and meanings of signs have been forgotten, and if I was forced to solve a problem such as the one in the OP I'd be lost at even interpreting the significance of what I was looking at. And why should I have to know? I's useless to me.

Literature, social studies, and history are useless to me. I still learned them. Vocational schools exist for a reason

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

This was the video (less than 3min) with Neil deGrasse Tyson I was talking about earlier, although he was talking about math in general not specifically algebra (although algebra is pretty much math in general).

Neil deGrasse Tyson- Why Would-be Engineers End Up English Majors

"Whether or not you ever again use the math you learned in school, the act of having learned the math established a wiring in your brain that didn't exist before and it's that wiring in your brain that makes you the problem solver."

 

[Wvrs]

Do you agree that there are many domains in which algebra is either an absolute requirement or a prerequisite for other requirements? If so, do you think 15 years of age is the time when we start eliminating large numbers of potential career paths for Americans? In other words, the only people who will become physicists, engineers, chemists, biologists, programmers, economists, etc are those who actively decided to take algebra as an elective as a freshman or sophomore in high school.

I'm talking college age students.

 

[RMI]

I passed whatever the first level of calculus was in college for engineering majors and even I don't remember how to solve this shit.

Algebra is important but for most people it doesn't need to go further than solving equations in one variable for day-to-day living.

I'm a biologist now and I can tell you that we never use this shit. Maybe the computational folks are a little more mathy, but not by much.

I still think the coursework was valuable. I never use "art history" but don't think it's pointless.

 

[Bakercat]

Shit, I had 3 math classes since started college,( two were so I could get in due to low math atc score) and aced them all, but I couldn't tell you the first thing to do here lol. To tell you the truth I don't need algebra for what I'm going to school for which is psychology. All I really needed was stats because trying to do math for research results, but in this day in age we have computers that just spit out the numbers you need, so I have no idea why I even need stats nowadays.

 

[Makai]

How do you even plan your finances without algebra? Seems completely absurd that people never use it.

 

[God Dayumm]

Literature, social studies, and history are useless to me. I still learned them. Vocational schools exist for a reason

Same. Useless and inacurate, altough literature was ok because they were strict on the writing instead of promoting bullshiting your way out of a paper. I didn't need 3 ethics classes though.

 

[Superflat]

Went to art school and can't math myself out of student debt.

 

[Makai]

To be fair I don't think I've ever had to use algebra (as shown in OP) as a tax accountant, much less planning my own budget.


That being said, I don't see the problem with this level of algebra being the bare minimum for community college.

You definitely need linear equations at the absolute minimum.

 

[cheezcake]

You've misapprehended what I said. We're talking of education at college level (read: adult); I think by that the time you reach adulthood, you should have a tentative enough idea of who you are and what you want out of life to be able to focus on what truly matters to you. At no point did I imply that algebra shouldn't be taught in early education; as broad a range of possible topics as is possible should be taught in that stage, as no-one should be precluded from the opportunity to discover something they love and excel at.

I did algebra back in secondary school, and I understood it pretty well, but mathematics always bored me and so I didn't pursue it further. In the six years since I've never had to solve an alebraic problem or do any maths more difficult than calculating percentages and ratios, the methods and meanings of signs have been forgotten, and if I was forced to solve a problem such as the one in the OP I'd be lost at even interpreting the significance of what I was looking at. And why should I have to know? I's useless to me.

I also think that once you hit post-secondary education your study should be focused on a particular profession. The reason why I disagree about removing it in this instance is because America's secondary school mathematics education is already a god damn embarrassment. This is an appropriate stop gap til you fix the problem at it's source.

Also it's not about 'having' to solve algebraic problems. Problems which can be expressed algebraically are literally everywhere in normal life. It's not that you don't 'have' to use algebra, it's that you choose not to. And that largely stems from a lack of mathematical capability developed in you during your education. You admit it yourself, " I'd be lost at even interpreting the significance of what I was looking at". A good algebraic foundation will help anyone take appropriate financial decisions and encourage them towards better retirement and investment strategies at minimum. And that doesn't even begin to go into the more abstract merits: logic, creative problem solving, pattern recognition, theory building are all traits which algebra helps you develop.

And the issue here is that people who don't really understand algebra, or other basic mathematical concepts, don't understand that they're missing out on this. They act as if the fact they're not confronted by a quadratic equation every time they go to buy a coffee makes algebra as a whole useless. It's blind.

Literature, social studies, and history are useless to me. I still learned them. Vocational schools exist for a reason

I feel like this is making the same mistake in the other direction. I took philosophy, ethics, and literature courses through my elec engineering degree and I would never call them useless. Do I use them day-to-day? Nope. But I'm damn sure that the larger concepts or thinking methods they taught me still inform my thoughts in everyday situations.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I feel like this is making the same mistake in the other direction. I took philosophy, ethics, and literature courses through my elec engineering degree and I would never call them useless. Do I use them day-to-day? Nope. But I'm damn sure that the larger concepts or thinking methods they taught me still inform my thoughts in everyday situations.

I think this was their point. For some reason (as the xkcd comic posted says) we find it acceptable to argue "When do I use this? Useless!" when we're talking about math even though that applies to damn near every class you've ever had.

 

[Karsticles]

This was the video (less than 3min) with Neil deGrasse Tyson I was talking about earlier, although he was talking about math in general not specifically algebra (although algebra is pretty much math in general).

Neil deGrasse Tyson- Why Would-be Engineers End Up English Majors

Yes. This is what I tell my students. Math isn't about the specific skills you learn. It's about Establishing an underlying base structure for thinking well. I have never met an intelligent person who is bad at math.

 

[Cagey]

Yes. This is what I tell my students. Math isn't about the specific skills you learn. It's about Establishing an underlying base structure for thinking well. I have never met an intelligent person who is bad at math.

Go to any good law school. You'll find hundreds.

 

[captive]

If that is what algebra is basically meant to teach then I would argue using real life problems to help people break down complexities and have them solve for them instead of irrelevant numbers would be better suited to teach this.

and this ladies and gentlemen is the correct answer to the problem.

 

[The Lamp]

To be fair I don't think I've ever had to use algebra (as shown in OP) as a tax accountant, much less planning my own budget.


That being said, I don't see the problem with this level of algebra being the bare minimum for community college.

If you want to solve for unknown amounts of anything, you're using algebra.

If you want to know how much taxes you pay over a lifetime,
Let x be the tax bracket rate
y be the amount of income in that bracket
z be the tax paid in a given year
Total lifetime paid = sum(z) from z=1 to retirement
Z = sum(xy) for all tax brackets in a years income

Algebra, even if you didn't know that.
Mind you, I'm not an accountant so there may be details I'm ignorant of in this example

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

This was as far as I got. Totally forgot how to smoosh the the two parts together.

 

[TheExodu5]

Look up multi variable calculus and linear mathematics. It is the worst

First semester of University.

My most hated class was Ordinary Differential Equations. Proofs were so incredibly complex that you weren't ever expected to use or derive them. You were just expected to memorize 50 different types of ODEs and their solutions. Really hated that class.

 

[TheExodu5]

I don't know what the standards are but that problem was like... second year of high school for me? I think I did geometry, then algebra, then two years of calculus.

Canadian here.

First year of high school was easy algebra, geometry, and an introduction to y=mx + b.

Second and third year are a bit of a blur. Not sure at which points, but they were generally focused on functions (2nd degree equations, quadratic formula, solve for x), and trigonometric identities.

Fourth year had 2 classes: algebra and calculus. Algebra is where the problem in the OP would have come in. So again, high school level. Calculus class was learning limits and derivatives for polynomials and trigonometric functions, from what I recall.

First semester of University was mostly a review of the fourth year of high school, with the later 30% of the semester introducing integration.

 

[Artanisix]

the amount of people in this thread who can't (at least at one point in their lives) solve the OP's basic algebra question is legitimately shocking.

 

[The Lamp]

First semester of University.

My most hated class was Ordinary Differential Equations. Proofs were so incredibly complex that you weren't ever expected to use or derive them. You were just expected to memorize 50 different types of ODEs and their solutions. Really hated that class.

That class was a lot easier if you built a flow chart for when to use different solution methods, such as Variation of Parameters versus Laplace Transform versus other options.

 

[Timedog]

You should be able to apply basic logic and problem solving to get a college degree. It's not about needing to know factoring to complete a task at a job and more about the ability to learn and apply ideas quantitatively. The fact that many people can't solve the problem years after the fact is completely missing the point.

A critical thinking course should also be required for non-STEM majors.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

the amount of people in this thread who can't (at least at one point in their lives) solve the OP's basic algebra question is legitimately shocking.

I did high level calculus while getting my Comp Sci degree. I now write code for a living. I can't simplify OPs equation anymore. I haven't needed to in almost a decade.

 

[Chewie B]

As a grad student in a Speech Language Pathology program, that's gonna be a no from me.

This is a really poor attitude to have if you're planning on being an SLP. Much of your work revolves around phonology, phonetics, and audiology which are all quite math heavy at the underlying level. Yea, you can bullshit your way through a lot but I'd be quite concerned to find an SLP that was unable to at least know the association between a logarithm and hearing, what resonance is and how it is associated with speech production, how to track/graph their own data, how to determine if their patient's therapy gains are significant or not (and if so, how significant), how to read research articles, how design your own therapy techniques and be able to test them to know if they are effective or not, etc. etc.

Here's another really important one you should learn to appreciate NOW because you can and will kill someone in a hospital setting if you at least don't appreciate this:

In short, never ever ever endoscope a patient with a sky high INR level (like someone on too much Coumadin) as just a slight scratch in the nasal cavity/nasal turbinates/etc. with the tip of the endoscope can cause a massive hemorrhage.

This profession isn't just "English class but teaching it really really well". It's applied linguistics with some medicine all of which are quite math/logic heavy. Any decent physician will tell you they are a scientist first and foremost and you need to have the same attitude as well to actually make a positive impact in the lives of your patients.

This doesn't mean having the ability to factor polynomials in your head under 20 seconds, but at least having the ability to know where to look to remember how, and to be able to do so efficiently. It's impossible to do such a task efficiently without at least some kind of previous exposure.

Besides, lets say you plan on being a speech path in the school setting. A lot of kids are going to be coming to you stressed as fuck about their math homework or whatever and won't be motivated to work on their speech/language exercises that day. There exists an opportunity to kill 2 birds with 1 stone IF you know how to help them with their algebra homework. It's a near-perfect incentive to do a few therapy tasks in exchange for help on 1 problem. Depending on the speech/language disorder/severity of disorder/etc., you could even potentially figure out a way to blend speech/language therapy with math problem practice essentially making the therapy quite naturalistic instead of just rote.

 

[Artanisix]

I did high level calculus while getting my Comp Sci degree. I now write code for a living. I can't simplify OPs equation anymore. I haven't needed to in almost a decade.

so did you read my post at all, specifically the underlined section

 

[Kieli]

That class was a lot easier if you built a flow chart for when to use different solution methods, such as Variation of Parameters versus Laplace Transform versus other options.

I rocked ODEs, but got my arse rocked by PDEs. It's weird because you go from a lot of options on how to solve the problems down to 3 methods (change of variables, Sturm-Louiville, and 1 more), but then the calculations get absurdly tedious and there's a million variations of the basic 4 problems (heat, wave, etc...).

 

[opticalmace]

I rocked ODEs, but got my arse rocked by PDEs. It's weird because you go from a lot of options on how to solve the problems down to 3 methods (change of variables, Sturm-Louiville, and 1 more), but then the calculations get absurdly tedious and there's a million variations of the basic 4 problems (heat, wave, etc...).

I kind of miss college. I enjoyed taking those math courses (aside from astro and phys).

 

[jchap]

I rocked ODEs, but got my arse rocked by PDEs. It's weird because you go from a lot of options on how to solve the problems down to 3 methods (change of variables, Sturm-Louiville, and 1 more), but then the calculations get absurdly tedious and there's a million variations of the basic 4 problems (heat, wave, etc...).

In practice I solve all PDEs numerically using software like COMSOL.

 

[texasairhead101]

This was the video (less than 3min) with Neil deGrasse Tyson I was talking about earlier, although he was talking about math in general not specifically algebra (although algebra is pretty much math in general).

Neil deGrasse Tyson- Why Would-be Engineers End Up English Majors

You've sent me down a YouTube spiral with that video.
The conversation of what's useful for us has a lot of weight to it and that part in the video about wiring us to even if subconscious to be better problem solvers is a good argument.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Also Math is not a science. You don't run math experiments.

But you can't do experiments or any science without math though.

How was the Higgs-Boson discovery verified? By a five-sigma confidence level.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Algebra is not just about math, it's about understanding the logic and rules of a complex system where there will always be the same output for the same input.

This is a valuable skill for almost anyone to have.

 

[Just_myles]

Everyone needs it at some level. Problem solving skills.

 

[Xe4]

Also Math is not a science. You don't run math experiments.

People have been running math experiments for ages. Its actually how we learn most thing in math. Trial and error, making inferences on data, and forming conjectures. It just so happens that math can go one step further due to its abstract nature in that it can prove something, where as other sciences cannot. For instance we've been running experiments for years now determining if the Riemann-Zeta Hypothesis or Goldbach Conjecture are likely to be true or not, and have determined they likely are (without giving a formal proof saying they absolutely are). This is a crucial part to math, and often underrepresented.

Though you're right that math and science have major differences, they have tons of overlap as well.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

I rocked ODEs, but got my arse rocked by PDEs. It's weird because you go from a lot of options on how to solve the problems down to 3 methods (change of variables, Sturm-Louiville, and 1 more), but then the calculations get absurdly tedious and there's a million variations of the basic 4 problems (heat, wave, etc...).

Because ODEs and PDEs that model our natural world will require the use of numerical methods.

ODEs at the introductory level give nice analytical solutions.

 

[ZackieChan]

I'm a math professor and even I'm torn about forcing students to pass certain math courses in college.

The thing about a problem like this is that the answer isn't really important. The critical skills that help you solve something like this are pattern matching and logic puzzle skills.

When I looked at the problem I basically scanned it and said to myself "difference of perfect squares. two terms, only common factor x. four terms, most likely factor by grouping. two terms, only common factor 5." I think it's not as important (to a general non-math-major student) that you get the answer as it is that you are able to break down the "puzzle" and use problem solving skills.

The worst is the person above who said "I would take points off because you didn't specify x =/= 0, etc" - that doesn't help non-math-majors at all.

100% this. A vital skill that so many lack. Even here, people often post about some overwhelming issue, whether it's finding a date or finding a job, but they seem to lack the ability to break down a problem into actionable steps and arrive at a solution. You can't just go from problem to answer most of the time in real life. It's this critical thinking and problem solving that is severely lacking. Learning this shit is like Mr. Miyagi teaching you karate - you learn these skills, thinking you're washing cars, when really you're learning how to make shit happen in your adult life.

Similarly, all of those worthless liberal arts classes aim to teach you how to start with an issue, research a solution and get it done. Meanwhile, we have people posting threads with simple, googleable questions, or about how to mail a letter or other similar "turtle on its back" nonsense.

For the record, I'm a lawyer who has had no more than the bare minimum of math classes in my education, and I could see the different factoring patterns in that problem right away, simply by virtue of not freaking out at the overall confusion of all the numbers/variables, and looking at each individual part.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

People have been running math experiments for ages. Its actually how we learn most thing in math. Trial and error, making inferences on data, and forming conjectures. It just so happens that math can go one step further due to its abstract nature in that it can prove something, where as other sciences cannot. For instance we've been running experiments for years now determining if the Riemann-Zeta Hypothesis or Goldbach Conjecture are likely to be true or not, and have determined they likely are (without giving a formal proof saying they absolutely are). This is a crucial part to math, and often underrepresented.

Though you're right that math and science have major differences, they have tons of overlap as well.

To expand on this, there have been plenty of conjectures that were later disproved due to a computer program that found a ridiculously large counterexample.

 

[Lesath]

100% this. A vital skill that so many lack. Even here, people often post about some overwhelming issue, whether it's finding a date or finding a job, but they seem to lack the ability to break down a problem into actionable steps and arrive at a solution. You can't just go from problem to answer most of the time in real life. It's this critical thinking and problem solving that is severely lacking. Learning this shit is like Mr. Miyagi teaching you karate - you learn these skills, thinking you're washing cars, when really you're learning how to make shit happen in your adult life.

Similarly, all of those worthless liberal arts classes aim to teach you how to start with an issue, research a solution and get it done. Meanwhile, we have people posting threads with simple, googleable questions, or about how to mail a letter or other similar "turtle on its back" nonsense.

For the record, I'm a lawyer who has had no more than the bare minimum of math classes in my education, and I could see the different factoring patterns in that problem right away, simply by virtue of not freaking out at the overall confusion of all the numbers/variables, and looking at each individual part.

Yeah, I work in STEM and it baffles me that so many people this category would just throw their hands up and say "I forgot/I couldn't be bothered to remember so I won't even try".

It's not that they don't know; ignorance is never something I would shame someone for. But what's absolutely galling is people in here take some sort of perverse pride in *not* knowing how to do something and not even making a token attempt to solve the problem as far as they can. I'd thought GAF better than this anti-intellectualist crap.

 

[ZackieChan]

Yeah, I work in STEM and it baffles me that so many people this category would just throw their hands up and say "I forgot/I couldn't be bothered to remember so I won't even try".

It's not that they don't know; ignorance is never something I would shame someone for. But what's absolutely galling is people in here take some sort of perverse pride in *not* knowing how to do something and not even making a token attempt to solve the problem as far as they can. I'd thought GAF better than this anti-intellectualist crap.

Particularly when we live in a time when access to information is greater than literally any time in human history, pretty much across the whole of humanity.

 

[devilhawk]

Go to any good law school. You'll find hundreds.

He said intelligent people.

 

[ZackieChan]

He said intelligent people.

These hot takes...

 

[Cyrano]

Math is about structured thinking, but I'm torn on whether or not math is the best way to teach that - it's certainly not as practical as a course on formal logic. That said, I'm not sure how approachable formal logic would be without an understanding of algebra and basic symbolic language, though understanding language itself is the understanding of symbolic structures - so, hard to say.

At the same time, I don't think most people actually appreciate any of that when they construct sentences, and it's pretty clear many don't understand language very well.

Even so, for however much some might hate it, I think people should at least learn up to pre-calculus, if not calculus.

 

[Kieli]

In practice I solve all PDEs numerically using software like COMSOL.

Yeah, that was one of the points hammered home by my prof. Is that the large portion of PDE and ODEs cannot be solved in closed-form. The techniques we were taught could only solve maybe less than 1% of all the diffyEqs that exist in the wild.

A few of my comp sci professors actually did their PhD in solving PDEs numerically.

 

[Laiza]

Yeah, I work in STEM and it baffles me that so many people this category would just throw their hands up and say "I forgot/I couldn't be bothered to remember so I won't even try".

Can you blame people when it's a completely abstract problem indicative of nothing other than their willingness to engage with completely abstract problems?

Reword the whole thing into something that sounds at least vaguely relevant and I suspect you'd have a lot more people showing due respect to the problem.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Can you blame people when it's a completely abstract problem indicative of nothing other than their willingness to engage with completely abstract problems?

Reword the whole thing into something that sounds at least vaguely relevant and I suspect you'd have a lot more people showing due respect to the problem.

Figuring out what the problem is is half the battle (in the real world)

 

[GraveRobberX]

I never understood why in college you are burdened to take all these classes that most of the time don't really affect your degree

If your an Engineer, of course math and all the sub classes attached to it should be taken, but why the hell is Literature 101 or Comprehensive Writing 101 necessary too?

Why on earth does a degree in Accounting require me to take electives that may not benefit the degree overall. Hey take a computer class, oh most easy ones filled up, here take Visual Basics, for what purpose does a an Accountant need VB for?, CS I get, but business management or economics?

One of my electives I took was World Geography, wanted to enjoy getting to know the world, little did I know this is a major class for people looking to get into travel industry and were confused to as why an accountant major was here
I was like damn, y'all have cliques in here?

Also Community College really is High School+

 

[cpp_is_king]

I never understood why in college you are burdened to take all these classes that most of the time don't really affect your degree

If your an Engineer, of course math and all the sub classes attached to it should be taken, but why the hell is Literature 101 or Comprehensive Writing 101 necessary too?

Why on earth does a degree in Accounting require me to take electives that may not benefit the degree overall. Hey take a computer class, oh most easy ones filled up, here take Visual Basics, for what purpose does a an Accountant need VB for?, CS I get, but business management or economics?

Because higher education != job training