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LAT: The politics of math: Is algebra necessary to obtain a college degree?
- Thread starter Tripon
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lmfao
Because society needs well-rounded educations, not people only skilled at one thing, going out and voting (or not) with their ignorance.
Most Americans "survive" algebra instead of learning it. You can tell people here think it is just a set of rules to memorize instead of understanding patterns and what it aims to achieve.
I think that math should be taught all the way through high school. It's important to have a wide array of exposure to subjects at that phase in life. At one point in my life, I might have been able to do that problem in the OP, but I can't remember how to now and I really don't give a care how.
Math has always been a hard subject for me to tackle. I think it's because no one ever really broke it down and applied it to real life. With almost every other subject that I've learned, there's always been a practical component that I could touch.
English is the gateway course. The world of the written word completely opens up to you. This is how you communicate with others. Science has a bunch of concepts, but you also have practical parts where you can do things like grow plants, cut open frogs, mix chemicals and see reactions, push objects and see them move, etc. Cooking is practical for saving money and eating tasty food. History helps you learn from the mistakes of the past. I could go on. But no one has ever connected abstract math to me in practical terms before.
When I was taking trigonometry, I asked the teacher why we would ever want to use this. She said that you could build a bridge with it and a couple of other things. I remember thinking to myself "I don't want to build a bridge, screw this" and, surprisingly, I didn't do too well in the class. The only abstract math I use in my day-to-day life is just intuitive and done subconsciously. Why does no teacher say "okay, here's how we use math to make more money" or "so, you want to throw a party for 20 people, here's how many bags of chips you need?"
I've read a majority of this thread and I see another major problem with many of the people who are advocating for more abstract math: you're sanctimonious assholes about it. You rail against people for not knowing how to solve the OP's problem, belittle them, and then expect them to be like "oh yeah, I totally want to solve whatever the hell that is now" when almost no one will ever sit down at a desk and write a problem out like that. If you really want to change people's minds on more math, I think you need to connect it to things they actually care about.
Math has always been a hard subject for me to tackle. I think it's because no one ever really broke it down and applied it to real life. With almost every other subject that I've learned, there's always been a practical component that I could touch.
English is the gateway course. The world of the written word completely opens up to you. This is how you communicate with others. Science has a bunch of concepts, but you also have practical parts where you can do things like grow plants, cut open frogs, mix chemicals and see reactions, push objects and see them move, etc. Cooking is practical for saving money and eating tasty food. History helps you learn from the mistakes of the past. I could go on. But no one has ever connected abstract math to me in practical terms before.
When I was taking trigonometry, I asked the teacher why we would ever want to use this. She said that you could build a bridge with it and a couple of other things. I remember thinking to myself "I don't want to build a bridge, screw this" and, surprisingly, I didn't do too well in the class. The only abstract math I use in my day-to-day life is just intuitive and done subconsciously. Why does no teacher say "okay, here's how we use math to make more money" or "so, you want to throw a party for 20 people, here's how many bags of chips you need?"
I've read a majority of this thread and I see another major problem with many of the people who are advocating for more abstract math: you're sanctimonious assholes about it. You rail against people for not knowing how to solve the OP's problem, belittle them, and then expect them to be like "oh yeah, I totally want to solve whatever the hell that is now" when almost no one will ever sit down at a desk and write a problem out like that. If you really want to change people's minds on more math, I think you need to connect it to things they actually care about.
undrtakr900
Member
I'm probably alone here, but I actually love math. When I finally solved a long complicated problem, I get a sense of euphoria/endorphins released lol.
The whole "solve for X" scenario has never came up, but in the abstract form algebra has drastically helped my critical thinking and ways to analyze everyday problems.
The whole "solve for X" scenario has never came up, but in the abstract form algebra has drastically helped my critical thinking and ways to analyze everyday problems.
PSYGN
Member
I think I'm missing something here. In all my life we've always had lessons to review over with problems covered under these lessons to reinforce our understanding. I wouldn't consider myself great at math, but going by the article I must be some kind of genius for being able to study and remember formulas and such for tests (before forgetting them again after the semester).
With that said, if this is the only thing keeping people from graduating from a community college, then I think they can "dumb" it down, but only if you aren't planning on transferring to a University. Algebra isn't difficult, it just takes patience and a lot of practice to gain that intuition. There's so many resources out there these days like Kahn Academy that there really shouldn't be any reason to not be able to complete it unless they just fail to balance work and family life with school life, but that's still on them... not everyone's going to be a winner.
With that said, if this is the only thing keeping people from graduating from a community college, then I think they can "dumb" it down, but only if you aren't planning on transferring to a University. Algebra isn't difficult, it just takes patience and a lot of practice to gain that intuition. There's so many resources out there these days like Kahn Academy that there really shouldn't be any reason to not be able to complete it unless they just fail to balance work and family life with school life, but that's still on them... not everyone's going to be a winner.
Saucycarpdog
Member
I believe variety is the key for better intelligence. Having people learn the basics for a variety of subjects can open someone's mind and actually change the way they think of subjects. Which I believe would benefit people more in their future career than just pushing STEM classes down their throats. This is especially true of course if the people taking those stem classes are not going into careers based on stem.
People should know basic math and logic solving yes, but I don't always understand when some math experts say everyone needs to know at least like business calculus before they can graduate.
If you make that arguement, well, I can find a sociology expert who swears that that people need to learn sociology before they graduate in order to fully understand society's collective behavior and biases. I actually had a sociology professor once who told the class that what he teaches is the most important thing in school. That if we forget all other subjects after graduation that was fine as long as we remember what he taught us. He argued that teaching about the discrimination and biases of society was essential to eliminating them and changing society, which was something that was more impactful than any of the other subjects. (I sorta got where he was coming from)
People should know basic math and logic solving yes, but I don't always understand when some math experts say everyone needs to know at least like business calculus before they can graduate.
If you make that arguement, well, I can find a sociology expert who swears that that people need to learn sociology before they graduate in order to fully understand society's collective behavior and biases. I actually had a sociology professor once who told the class that what he teaches is the most important thing in school. That if we forget all other subjects after graduation that was fine as long as we remember what he taught us. He argued that teaching about the discrimination and biases of society was essential to eliminating them and changing society, which was something that was more impactful than any of the other subjects. (I sorta got where he was coming from)
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
The principle reason I don't have my degree is because of the required math classes.
I scored a 32 on my ACT. Perfect 36 on Reading Comprehension, a 35 on English, a 29 on Science, and I believe a 26 on Math. Always my weakest subject.
This was freshman year. Due to freshman placement and a quirk in my school district's academic expectations, I only had to take 2 years of math in high school. So Junior and Senior year, no math. Then, I took 4 years off from school. When I went back, I had to take a Compass exam for placement. I crammed the night before trying to figure out what the hell I was doing. A 98% pre-algebra, a 30% on algebra. That meant I had to go take Math for Dummies (Math 1000) my first semester back. I was fine with that since I straight up had no idea what I was doing.
Well, I failed that class, but the teacher passed me because I was a congenial student. The following semester, I jumped into College Algebra. Very quickly on, I knew I was in over my head, so I withdrew before it would count against my GPA. The following semester, I tried again, and again withdrew. The semester after that, I pivoted to Statistics, thinking that might be more up my alley, and my chosen degree was fine with either class. Nope, another withdrawal.
I simply cannot do math at a level required to get a degree in English. I have no intention of using or teaching math beyond what is required for me to live my normal life, but because of a deficit in math ability, I was unable to get that sheet of paper to prove to people that they should give me a raise.
Pretty stupid, in my opinion.
I make really good money now, but there was a good 7 or 8-year period in which I earned less than the person next to me if they had a degree and I didn't, regardless of ability, experience, production, or whatever.
I admire people who love math and have the ability to comprehend it, but I simply cannot keep formulas in my head. It just doesn't work.
I scored a 32 on my ACT. Perfect 36 on Reading Comprehension, a 35 on English, a 29 on Science, and I believe a 26 on Math. Always my weakest subject.
This was freshman year. Due to freshman placement and a quirk in my school district's academic expectations, I only had to take 2 years of math in high school. So Junior and Senior year, no math. Then, I took 4 years off from school. When I went back, I had to take a Compass exam for placement. I crammed the night before trying to figure out what the hell I was doing. A 98% pre-algebra, a 30% on algebra. That meant I had to go take Math for Dummies (Math 1000) my first semester back. I was fine with that since I straight up had no idea what I was doing.
Well, I failed that class, but the teacher passed me because I was a congenial student. The following semester, I jumped into College Algebra. Very quickly on, I knew I was in over my head, so I withdrew before it would count against my GPA. The following semester, I tried again, and again withdrew. The semester after that, I pivoted to Statistics, thinking that might be more up my alley, and my chosen degree was fine with either class. Nope, another withdrawal.
I simply cannot do math at a level required to get a degree in English. I have no intention of using or teaching math beyond what is required for me to live my normal life, but because of a deficit in math ability, I was unable to get that sheet of paper to prove to people that they should give me a raise.
Pretty stupid, in my opinion.
I make really good money now, but there was a good 7 or 8-year period in which I earned less than the person next to me if they had a degree and I didn't, regardless of ability, experience, production, or whatever.
I admire people who love math and have the ability to comprehend it, but I simply cannot keep formulas in my head. It just doesn't work.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
It really is
Every other subject I've learned in school/college has been useful in the real world. Alegebra hasn't done shit for me.
Forerunner
Member
I graduated last year and I don't remember it. For my degree (criminal justice), all I needed was College Algebra and Statistics. I've always hated math, so it's whatever.
Lagspike_exe
Member
This is INTERMEDIATE algebra? Give me a break. If you can't solve that you shouldn't graduate high school let alone college.
HoodWinked
Member
algebra in itself is probably pretty useless but learning the procedural nature of it and how values are assigned to letters are all very fundamental to things like programming and higher maths.
i think its hilarious that many are pushing for others to go into STEM then selectively see this then are like nah this is pointless to teach.
i think its hilarious that many are pushing for others to go into STEM then selectively see this then are like nah this is pointless to teach.
These are my thoughts really. I never grasped algebra because math teachers just said: problem-solving when I asked about its practical usage with examples. And once you get lost, it's almost impossible to catch up, so I and others get demoralized. Tutoring isn't always an option and even then, sometimes it doesn't help.
Can't be said enough. Some level of problem solving is needed for any career, and you will need to learn and adapt to off the wall shit often to get by.
And like with any subject, it does shine some insight on what people used to figure out shit, even if it's shit you will never do.
If this was an optional elective like woodshop or some shit, no one would choose it and thus never have the opportunity to know if they are good at it. Since so many math science and programming subjects are based on fundamental algebra, its worth being exposed to it. With testing that ensures you've digested a basic form of it
toastyToast
Member
Can't remember how to do that shit and I've got an engineering degree
umop_3pisdn
Member
Because university is for academics, which is another way of saying a broad education in theory, the humanities, or really any kind of optional thinking that extends beyond blunt pragmatic utility. If university weren't the institution for that, then what would be?
Considering report writing is a huge part of the job as an engineer, doing some literary/writing classes certainly won't hurt.
A degree in a STEM field is practically a piece of paper that demonstrates your ability and willingness to engage in abstract problems, so yeah I kind of would. You can't have this sort of unhealthy hostility when faced with your own intellectual inadequacies, especially in academia.
...particularly if this is a problem solvable by sixth to seventh graders.
Yeah, I actually thought this was pre algebra
If the objective of teaching math isn't to teach a specific thing, but instead to teach general problem solving (which it should be IMO), I would argue math is the wrong way to teach it, math is extremely low level, and usually a bit distanced from the end result, even something as basic as 1+1=2 is an abstraction.
Programming on the other hand is a far better way to teach logic and problem solving skills, you can get something that is clearly a real world problem, you then break it down into its smaller components, going line by line until you get an end result that you can see solving the problem, not just know that it solved it, but actually see that it solved it.
This is a huge difference, more than that in most problems you create a solution that is interactive, that people can mess around with and check that it did in fact solve the issue in a very real way.
Current way math is thought at least from my experience, feels more like teaching programming by teaching people APIs.
Anyway the Banach–Tarski paradox proves that math is fake science
so clearly it isn't worth knowing.
Programming on the other hand is a far better way to teach logic and problem solving skills, you can get something that is clearly a real world problem, you then break it down into its smaller components, going line by line until you get an end result that you can see solving the problem, not just know that it solved it, but actually see that it solved it.
This is a huge difference, more than that in most problems you create a solution that is interactive, that people can mess around with and check that it did in fact solve the issue in a very real way.
Current way math is thought at least from my experience, feels more like teaching programming by teaching people APIs.
Anyway the Banach–Tarski paradox proves that math is fake science
no it doesn't
Chaos2Frozen
Member
You're not alone.
When you look back at the long working you did, it would feel like you wrote a symphony.
Memorizing isn't that useful... Remember the most common 3-4, and keep the rest on a file you can handily access.
But I wish I was better at deviring them. I stumble upon ODE on a regular basis that I can't solve... and half of the time I ask a mathematician, he's like "you do this, then substitute this, then do that and swap those and you're done". It's a bit annoying.
On topic, I'm with people that argue that even if you don't directly use algebra in everyday life, you still benefits from working on it in the past.
I mean, we still teach ancient greek or latin to a lot of 13-18 years old (*if they want to learn*), it's the epitome of "useless in life" and I still think it's a great way to train your brain.
ChubbyHuggs
Member
People should be learning to balance their finances, because I see people leaving school and having no fucking clue how to manage their money.
eot
Banned
This is baffling to me, did you actually take a lot of math?
Then you have a very rigid and narrow view of intelligence.
Nostremitus
Member
I passed an advanced physics course over a decade ago...
I'd have trouble with a simple equation right now, I've not used it so I lost it. The class was a complete waste of money in that regard
I'd have trouble with a simple equation right now, I've not used it so I lost it. The class was a complete waste of money in that regard
If you take a random sampling of any student body and ask them "Why are you going to college?" an overwhelming amount of them will probably say "to get a better job"
veloxStrix
Banned
That seems like a failing of the public school system then. As is Algebra. Most people I went to university who had any trouble with higher maths could trace that issue directly back to a lack of knowledge and practice in Algebra.
I'm a firm believer that, for almost any field, a well-rounded education is more important than being an expert in one single detail. This is a big part of why you'll see so many complaints about programming interviews. People self taught themselves programming but never bothered to learn math skills. Now they have to try and wrap their head around algorithms and they have issues. So you end up with 100 Medium posts about how shitty programming interviews are because employers would like people with some level of comprehension rather than syntax monkeys.
eot
Banned
He's right and wrong. The problem is that people pass these classes without having gotten anything out of them, because they're not really learning how to do math. Teaching people to memorise rules is pointless. We should be teaching every one some level of math, but the quality of the teaching needs to improve. I'll also drop this here:
https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I know your trying to make a point but your examples are way off. A lot of engineer's need comprehensive writing to record, in very technical detail, what they do for clients. They also need good writing skills to convey plans properly. Not even mentioning if you ever become a head engineer.
Do you really think management and economics is bad for an accountant? Aren't some accountants placed in supervisory roles? Doesn't some basic economics help out an accountants understanding of finance sectors? I'm not in this field but it seems like the ability to design scripts could help accountants do some useful stuff in excel as well. Not applying what you learn does not mean it isn't useful!
Also electives are electives. They are meant to help round out your education. If you chose not to do something to compliment your career field, that's the individuals fault. Although I really did enjoy that useless art class I studied!
The Spoony Hou
Member
Well, anything that might help people get smarter has to stay. It's scary how stupid people are becoming.
It absolutely is a failing of the system. I agree that a well educated population is better for society overall, but academia is still very much stuck in a mode of "university is only for the pursuit of knowledge". Ivory Tower syndrome is a real thing and many professors and departments are beholden to outdated ideals about what purpose the institution serves, and who they are serving. Last I remember reading, there is approximately 4x as many PhDs graduating as there are positions available at universities. Yet the level of professional development on how to apply those degrees outside of the university environment is sorely lacking, and in many fields looked down upon. You get people who can cure cancer but don't know how to write a grant so they end up in adjunct hell for the rest of their career.
Now, I'm not arguing that math is useless, but on the other hand, we have a lot of math majors and people who work in the physical sciences and technology fields up in this thread doing a lot of shaming. Sorry folks, but your bias is showing. Yes, it's a great tool for developing critical thinking and problem solving skills, but so is the scientific method, so is philosophy, so is law school, so is the debate team.
What good are math skills if you're a total douche to work with and can't compose a grammatically correct email? Employers consistently rank communication and teamwork skills at the top of the list of desirable traits in a new hire, along with problem solving/critical thinking.
A lot of folks are knee deep in "you're not wrong, you're just an asshole" territory, and I know very few folks who like working with assholes.
"ive never used it after school" is the absolute worst excuse. You can erase ALL subjects (except your mother tongue) using that argument. If you end up getting a History degree, odds are you never needed biology math classes. If you got biology, you probably never used History. And so on.
Learning stuff, that you like and dont like, that you use and don't use, is part of growing and deciding what the hell you want to do with your life. Unless you guys think child with 10yo already know what their life plan is, there is no way you can cut any subject from their learning. Come on, moat people end high school and are not sure yet what they wanna do.
Learning stuff, that you like and dont like, that you use and don't use, is part of growing and deciding what the hell you want to do with your life. Unless you guys think child with 10yo already know what their life plan is, there is no way you can cut any subject from their learning. Come on, moat people end high school and are not sure yet what they wanna do.
esmith08734
Member
I am a Comp Sci grad. student and I looked at the problem in the OP and was like 'nope.'
I mean, I can solve it, but it's the type of math that's not relevant for me (although the thought process on how to solve may be)
I mean, I can solve it, but it's the type of math that's not relevant for me (although the thought process on how to solve may be)
RageWaffles
Member
I could have done that in a blink 15 years ago, but now? Hah, no. Maaaybe if you let me toy with it for a hour I could figure out/remember what to do where.
I feel like I remember even fewer details from math than from other subjects that also have near-zero use my daily life (physics, biology, american pop music 1700s-1950s [yes, I actually had a class on this], etc).
Maybe that's because most of my math classes focused on the what (i.e.: "just follow these rules, you don't need to understand it"), rather than the how and why like every other class.
I feel like I remember even fewer details from math than from other subjects that also have near-zero use my daily life (physics, biology, american pop music 1700s-1950s [yes, I actually had a class on this], etc).
Maybe that's because most of my math classes focused on the what (i.e.: "just follow these rules, you don't need to understand it"), rather than the how and why like every other class.
If you could simply plug people into a machine and download the skills then sure. Reality on the other hand demands time and dedication, the same time and dedication that can in nearly any situation be argued to be well spent on some other skill. There are as many plausible arguments as there are individuals. If mathematics would be the end all for a happy society then i doubt Gaf would be bitching about Singapore in nearly every topic the country is mentioned.
Bingo.
I can't remember how to solve many of the shit I did in school, but it sure helped my problem solving speed.
Same as basic litterature and history. I can't stress how it helps me managing the non profit organisation I'm in.
Yes, every individual that claims to have attained a higher level of education should meet a baseline of proficiency in redaction and composition, along with mathematics, science, literature and history. That's the sole purpose of higher teaching.
And while the ivory tower syndrome might be a thing, so is short term utilitarianism. Specially in math, you can find that many of its greatest achievements were stuck in the ivory tower of their respective times for decades or even centuries, until their time came to change the world.
toastyToast
Member
Karsticles
Member
There are smart people and there are dumb people. The end. All intelligence tests have strong correlation with a general intelligence factor. The idea that people are just "smart in different ways" is an attempt to democratize intelligence so everyone can feel good.
andythinkpad
Member
You should be able to look at that solution and remember how to solve it in similar step. It's very basic stuff in diagram and symbol representation and abstract thinking.
Americans being shit at math is not news.
Americans being shit at math is not news.
eot
Banned
I'm not saying that you should know how to solve it instantly, because that kind of knowledge fades with time, but if you completed an engineering degree I think you can sit down for a few minutes and work it out.