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CNN: The United States has meddled in 81 elections in 47 countries
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
- Start date
Given how it is read here as "devil's advocate" and "you reap what you sow", I do have seen less reasonable conclusions.
cloud_sleep
Member
Karma is orange.
Maintenance
Member
Well, duh. Karma is a bitch, shame the whole world is paying for it too.
Way too many.
Way too many.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Okay I can see that concern.
Is this actually a clickbait-driven topic though? Seems to me that it's actually rare moment of CNN playing "devil's advocate" in contradiction to their usual critical coverage of the Russian hacking story.
Is it really an out of nowhere story?.... or is it just that after 6 months of harping on Russian meddling, they gave a minute to address the (true) claims that the US has done it too.
Maybe the reason the OP posted it here is clickbait though! could be
It's Smerconish, his entire gig is I'm a middle of the road guy. This was done for views.
It is intellectually dishonest as hell to compare 2016 to the things that the U.S. has done over the years. I'm as anti-American exceptionalism as you can get, but it is absurd to compare 2016 to things that American has done in the past. The vast majority of America's influence has been straight forward, i.e. publicly supporting a candidate, trade deals, embargos, etc. etc. Is it nice, hell no, but it is at least 'above board'.
Has America used propaganda to prop up a candidate, hell yes. Should we, fuck no. What I have an issue with is dropping a five minute clip and trying to draw some comparison to 2016. This was 100%, hey we do it too. It is completely devoid of context, it is completely devoid of the realities of our modern era i.e. technology, social media, etc.
So provide some fucking context. It is disingenuous as hell. This doesn't educate people, was any context given as to why we were trying to influence elections in other countries? Did they have a discussion on the methods that we used? No, not really. This was a five minute clip that put up a splash screen that screams, hey we did it too.
Say you were uneducated concerning our attempts to intervene in elections, what is the take away. How after watching that are you more educated?
Naw, that was pretty succinct.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I imagine you haven't had time to respond to the further edits in my previous post replying to your edits (understandable), referring to actual US-backed coups in democratic countries. I'm going to say those are even more drastic actions than Russia 2016. So, an equivalency drawn between American and Russian actions might justifiably be called for....
I take your point about this piece being a Smerconish "both sides" clickbaity story rather than just being the usual CNN.
nephilimdj
Member
WHats the context of this? we live in a post-wikileaks world, USA gov purposly spied on companies in other countries so USA companies would win contracts. While the WH went out of its way to smear companies like huawei.
Straight forward lol
polyh3dron
Banned
donnie is going to latch the fuck on to this.
good job, cnn
good job, cnn
Charles Brandon
Member
The reason I want to know is not just because I want to know the specifics, although I do, but because I want to see where the bar is set. "Meddling" is very unspecific. Can anyone find the actual report this is based on, I can't access it?
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
The point is this, this isn't news unless you have been living under a rock...for well, ever.
Hell, if you want to look purely at American history look no further than the Monroe/Truman doctrine, Roosevelt corollary, Marshall plan, etc. We do this, every country does this. Zero doubt, I'm not denying it.
The problem I have is the blatant attempt to click bait w/o context. America is and has been a nation that engages in horrible and indefensible actions, is this really news? Are you going to sway peoples attention on this by posting and covering a story through this context?
You know the answer.
I'm talking historically. The vast majority of our influence has been via actual policy that was openly stated, see above. Guess what, it worked too. You don't see a massive amount of Communist countries out there.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
GIUK gap.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
What exactly is meddling? Because to me there is a big difference between openly supporting one candidate because he/she is better for US interests and digging up dirt to make the other candidates look bad.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
The fact that some seem so offended that CNN made this list is quite funny.
Unless you are American I dont know how this is surprising.
Also, it might not be proved but the common knowledge is that when Portugal got out of a dictatorship the candidate that won the elections was supported by the U.S. since the biggest competitor he had was the Communist party.
The U.S. has messed with a ton of countries.
Also, it might not be proved but the common knowledge is that when Portugal got out of a dictatorship the candidate that won the elections was supported by the U.S. since the biggest competitor he had was the Communist party.
The U.S. has messed with a ton of countries.
TheUzukiLives
Banned
You are right in that this feels like a "both sides" hit piece for clicks, but where I see it it's better then not talking about it at all. Even if this a subject that needs more nuance and information then a 5 minute segment can give, but at the very least it'll get people talking and digging for info. Will it work for everyone who saw/ will see this? No, because the people really need this info is going to ignore it, twist it, or Just flat out block it, but at least it's in people's minds and frankly that's the very least a news outlet can do.
I know it might not seem like much to people like you and me, but as someone who teaches history you should know better then anyone how sucky this country's education system and there are people who will be genuinely shocked by this information.
NyMartin90
Member
Sometimes those two things go hand in hand.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
No it won't. This isn't going to get people researching the depths of Americas involvement in foreign governments and/or the BS of American exceptionalism. All this is going to do is provide a talking point of, hey guys, whats the big deal we have done this too.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
America has done waaaaaaaaaaaay more than just the usual above board stuff. Come on now. There'a numerous occasions where their meddling has been as bad as Russia's was. Which is is sort of the point really. That stuff should have never been going on, by anyone.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
You've said you're a history teacher. I'm a former history major. So yeah, we do both know these facts about American interference in foreign democracies.
But we're not normal. Do the average people know this? I think not at all. I don't think it's common knowledge.
There's definitely room in this "Russia meddles in US election" story to remind the people, who certainly do not know much history, that the US has meddled in foreign democracies before. I would think it's the role of good news media to do so, actually. The ideal news source would mention it.
But you seem to have knowledge of Smerconish and his style of stories and you seem to think he is not the best delivery mechanism for this angle on the story because of his agenda. I can imagine if it were a full on right-wing news source, I might feel the same. The story is correct, but it's being used for a purpose. I'll agree that the source and implications of this source may be questionable... but this story isn't wrong (as you know) and news media reporting this isn't necessarily wrong. But maybe it's not the right vehicle to deliver this news.
Dragon Puncher
Member
If the US is "destroyed" the world economy goes with it. Not exactly a hero everyone wants.
More on topic, this is well known and obviously not okay. US meddling is also one of the biggest causes for anti Americanism around the world and have been since the end of WW2. That doesn't make what Russia did okay in any way, shape or form. Trying to lessen the impact or severity of the Russian meddling only emboldens other authoritarian regimes to do the same if weakens western democracy.
Autodidact
Banned
1. The US has meddled (what a nebulous word) in other countries' elections, doing everything from endorsing candidates to installing dictators to toppling regimes.
2. CNN, a trash cable network, tries to play #bothsides. You'd be naive to think they wouldn't purposely design a segment for Russia skeptics/downplayers so they could say, "See, we're not the liberal media." They value ratings and profit more than anything else. Trump's disparagement of them hasn't made them not trash.
Statements 1 and 2 can both be true.
News should be factual but also timely and relevant. Yes, the US has interfered in other countries' elections; check any textbook. But what is the point of running this story, especially when we've all but determined that a hostile foreign power tried to sway our election and may very well have installed a moronic Manchurian Candidate? In this atmosphere, running such a story can be construed as saying, "We did it too, so what's the big deal?" - thereby undermining the gravity of having our electoral sovereignty encroached upon. Our past actions, while questionable and even reprehensible, have no bearing on the current crisis, which should be handled and prosecuted according to the laws of this country, not according to some evasive "but what about" standard that implies somehow that we "deserved" this attack. This story fails to meet the "relevant" and "current" criteria for news, especially since CNN just lifted it from an academic paper or something. Moreover, genuine news seeks to inform, not merely to equivocate so as to draw "conservative" viewers and satisfy #bothsides.
Of course, the preceding paragraph bases its premises on CNN's being classified as news. I classify it as trash cable punditry that steals its "news" from legitimate outlets and then has stupid people comment on them.
They wanted you to watch. They wanted you to talk about them. You fell for the trick. Start reading the Times and the Post and the Wall Street Journal and the Associated Press and stop watching trash cable.
2. CNN, a trash cable network, tries to play #bothsides. You'd be naive to think they wouldn't purposely design a segment for Russia skeptics/downplayers so they could say, "See, we're not the liberal media." They value ratings and profit more than anything else. Trump's disparagement of them hasn't made them not trash.
Statements 1 and 2 can both be true.
News should be factual but also timely and relevant. Yes, the US has interfered in other countries' elections; check any textbook. But what is the point of running this story, especially when we've all but determined that a hostile foreign power tried to sway our election and may very well have installed a moronic Manchurian Candidate? In this atmosphere, running such a story can be construed as saying, "We did it too, so what's the big deal?" - thereby undermining the gravity of having our electoral sovereignty encroached upon. Our past actions, while questionable and even reprehensible, have no bearing on the current crisis, which should be handled and prosecuted according to the laws of this country, not according to some evasive "but what about" standard that implies somehow that we "deserved" this attack. This story fails to meet the "relevant" and "current" criteria for news, especially since CNN just lifted it from an academic paper or something. Moreover, genuine news seeks to inform, not merely to equivocate so as to draw "conservative" viewers and satisfy #bothsides.
Of course, the preceding paragraph bases its premises on CNN's being classified as news. I classify it as trash cable punditry that steals its "news" from legitimate outlets and then has stupid people comment on them.
They wanted you to watch. They wanted you to talk about them. You fell for the trick. Start reading the Times and the Post and the Wall Street Journal and the Associated Press and stop watching trash cable.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Zero doubt, I'm not denying that. I'm saying the vast majority of our interference has been in the open. I think that does make a difference as horrible as that sounds. It was obvious to all that we were trying to sway public opinion and the outcome of an election, hell even the system of government in a country. Yah, that does sound gross as shit. I agree.
The point is I think trying to draw some comparison between our history and 2016 as some type of normalizing factor is crap...and that was the purpose of this piece. Had this been an in-depth perspective I probably wouldn't be so annoyed.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
LOL. No he wouldn't.
An unstable United States is bad for the entire world. They got an incredibly nationalistic and well armed population of crazy people. I do believe that the gradual decline of American power is ultimately going to be a good thing but it has to take place over the next century, peacefully and without the influence of White Nationalism.
Can you imagine if the next Republican president is somehow more racist than Trump is? With a population of 50-60 million crazy white people behind him? That shit is scary as fuck.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
/raise glass
In ruling the world, yes. In interfering and similiar shit? Look up a country called Russia.
We are not we. And yes, you are probably not innocent.
And yet no mention of Congo/The DRC, even though IIRC Belgium and the C.I.A. have since admitted their involvement in assassinating Lumumba. Only the U.K./MI6 has not formally come out and apologized, I think.
Moff
Member
Can you back that statement up with facts and numberd?
Again, this is only about nonviolent election interference. Stuff like the DRC isn't counted.
No it's not. At all. Thanks for laughing while tons of people are suffering though.
XD
excelsiorlef
Member
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Excellent post.
TheUzukiLives
Banned
As much as I hate to use the downfall of other country's governments as a tool in an argument, but that's essentially what this info is probably best used for.
Person A: "SEE?! WE'VE DONE IT TOO AND IT WAS FOR AMERICA'S BEST INTEREST! FAKE NEWS!"
Person B: "And more then half of those countries on that list are in a political or economic chaotic state or are recovering from one. What do you think Russian gains by putting in someone that they have total control over? We could easily end up as the next Chile or Iran in that situation."
Outside of diverging back to right wing talking points, they're not going to have any ammo to fight back with. Believe me the right isn't going to want to use this as a talking point. It'll either make them look Russian government sympathisers or "Beta cucks" that aren't about MAGA.
#AllCountriesWillDoIt
You learned nothing about Soviet Union, didn't you?
A bit late to prevent that.
I mean, there was an official nato organization in charge of preventing socialist and communist parties from winning elections in most of european countries. It's not even that secret. People should remember it since it became public news after the fall of the USSR. In Italy several terrorist attacks were directly coordinated and sponsored by secret intelligence services to prevent the country from ever shifting too far left with terror scare tatics.
Hopefully not only that, hopefully this will reach people who in their mind still think America is the saviour and almighty, that America only cares for justice and right in the world, and for the rest of us, who are not Americans, well we shouldn't care and just watch from afar and laugh.
Chie Satonaka
Member
This is a good post that I agree with.
excelsiorlef
Member
You realize Trump is bad for the fucking world eh?! Paris Accord and such. Plus do you think he's not going to also continue interfering?
But yes just laugh ha ha all those minority Americans are going to be oppressed ha ha so awesome.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
The threshold is probably far, far higher.
AbsolutBro
Member
You might want to pick a different metaphor here...
because mathematically, it totally doesnt.