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[ULTROS!]

I made a thread asking why SRPGs aren't very popular but people addressed that DRPGs are the least popular of the bunch in the RPG subgenres.

With that said, we've seen some cult hits like Etrian Odyssey, Wizardry games, Experience Inc. games like Demon Gaze, but they never seem to attain a decent amount of popularity nor are they frequently talked about when discussing the RPGs (from what I've observed). That said, what makes the DRPG subgenre not so attractive to the market or to even you?

Adding to that, how can developers evolve the dungeon RPG subgenre to make it more attractive and interesting for others to check it out? Do you believe that the DRPG genre has evolved in many ways from the start that it doesn't need to evolve or do you believe an overhaul can make it a much better experience for others?

 

[spiritfox]

They can be very samey if it's the same corridor after corridor, plus a lot of them are not heavy in story. I like them, but they're more focused on mechanics and leveling than an epic story and cool cutscenes.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

 

[Sophia]

Good dungeon design is hard. Many of the more recent ones don't exactly have high production values either, even if they have decent art. And then you've got stuff like Etrian Odyssey that's reliant on the dual screens/touch screen of the 3DS to work, and would be difficult (but not impossible) to implement elsewhere.

Honestly, in the era of games like Dark Souls and the like doing well, I feel like there's a lot of potential for a high quality HD dungeon RPG. Dark Souls already borrows from them to some degree. But I don't know what developer would be willing to put out the effort for that.

Plus, Atlus/Racjin hasn't re-released the best dungeon RPG ever. Shame on them!

 

[Joyful]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

I love etrian odysseys artstyle, its cute

 

[NintendosBooger]

EO does everything right save for its appalling character and monster design.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Eh...Like shmups/STGs, the dungeon crawler is a niche genre that's pretty set in its ways.

Their appeal only goes so far. "Evolving" them risks upending everything that makes them work.

 

[texhnolyze]

The genre never click with me. I feel like they're just boring and too hardcore for me.

 

[Joseph Flemming]

I've wondered what could make this sub genre more enticing too. I love EO, (like the overall general artstyle, but not crazy about the character designs) and I really enjoyed Legend of Grimrock. I never got around to playing the sequel but from what I've seen it has a lot more open and out door environments.

 

[Producer]

casuals

 

[RPGam3r]

I find the dungeon crawling boring/samey, which is bad for a genre based on said crawling. The mapping aspect is also not entertaining to me as it is something I did when I was younger and don't miss all that much.

 

[SkyOdin]

Dungeon crawlers are by their very nature on the niche end of an already niche genre. As a whole, they are light on story, have comparitively simple graphics, emphasize difficulty, and cater to a crowd of veteran enthusiasts. You can't make them more popular without changing what makes them what they are.

They have been around forever. Dungeon crawlers are among the earliest form of videogame RPG, and are based on the oldest form of tabletop RPG playstyle. In all of these years, no one has created one that has broken out in mainstream. On the other hand, they thrive as modest-budgeted games catering to their niche audience. I don't see that changing.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I cut my PC RPG teeth on Eye of the Beholder, Dungeon Hack, etc. Hell, I still love dungeon hack today. I wish we could get a modern version of it.

But there's something about the modern iteration of the genre that just totally does nothing for me. I don't know if it's the art styles, or the gameplay structure, or what.

 

[jiggle]

Better character presentations would help for me

Cropped character portraits just doesn't hold my interest for long

 

[loganclaws]

I just want to say Legend of Grimrock 1 and 2 are amazing and everyone should play those games.

 

[Sophia]

Dungeon crawlers are by their very nature on the niche end of an already niche genre. As a whole, they are light on story, have comparitively simple graphics, emphasize difficulty, and cater to a crowd of veteran enthusiasts. You can't make them more popular without changing what makes them what they are.

They have been around forever. Dungeon crawlers are among the earliest form of videogame RPG, and are based on the oldest form of tabletop RPG playstyle. In all of these years, no one has created one that has broken out in mainstream. On the other hand, they thrive as modest-budgeted games catering to their niche audience. I don't see that changing.

I mean, for all intents and purposes Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and I presume Dark Souls 2 and 3 are pretty much just action-RPG takes on dungeon crawlers. Demon's Souls itself even splits it's levels up in a manner loosely similar to Etrian Odyssey.

They have all the same traits you mentioned above, save for the "comparatively simple graphics"

 

[BennyBlanco]

How's Wizardry 8?

Never tried this series and this has been in my backlog forever. Love Etrian Odyssey.

 

[Vamphuntr]

A lot of them tend to be quite difficult and requires good understanding of their systems/class/mechanics and don't have what could be considered good tutorials by modern standards. You have to put lot of time and use trials and errors a lot which are a turn off to lot of people.


This too:

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

It doesn't help that many Experience games use creepy fan service. I enjoyed Stranger in Sword City a lot and there was barely any in that one thank God.

 

[Fou-Lu]

I am a fan of dungeon crawlers, but especially the more action-y ones like Xanadu Next or Dark Cloud and Dark Cloud 2.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

How's Wizardry 8?

Never tried this series and this has been in my backlog forever. Love Etrian Odyssey.

Wizardry 8 is awesome.

It's a very different game though, at least compared to the rest of the series (and its many clones).

 

[Forward]

Wizardy is the pinnacle of the genre. VII and VIII were the best of the best. A new game that combined the best aspects of those two, whilst injecting something of the less intrusive aspects of modern gaming's quality of life improvements, would be my GOAT of Holy GOATs.

 

[Rei dos Vermes]

Most of today's dungeon crawlers are japanese portable titles with anime art and tropes, which turns away many hardcore fans of the genre who grew up playing Wizardry, Might and Magic, Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, etc.

 

[Forward]

How's Wizardry 8?

Never tried this series and this has been in my backlog forever. Love Etrian Odyssey.

Get it. Download the frame skip mod, and Flamestrike's first mod, and Profit like Mad.

 

[elshoelace]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

I agree with this. I'm not a fan of EO artstyle. Also think the lack of emphasis on story turns people off, the gameplay itself is fun and I enjoyed the time I put into 4.

 

[OBias]

You are stuck in the dungeon all the time, that's not very exciting.

 

[Lindsay]

They're like all first-person aren't they? If I couldn't play Shining in the Darkness way back in the day, I sure wouldn't be able to get into similiar games with a different coat of paint these days.

 

[Nairume]

As a fan of Etrian Odyssey from the very beginning, the character art style really doesn't help. I've tried turning people on to the game on numerous occasions only to get weird looks when they see the character art. While I get that's more on those players for tentatively writing off some great games for something so minor, it's not like the loli shit is really that integral to the experience that it needs to be there.

 

[ULTROS!]

You are stuck in the dungeon all the time, that's not very exciting.

Not necessarily. Demon Gaze has different, static, dungeon and a town system (more like a base).

 

[Hippopuncher12]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

I've never looked at EO since I don't play handhelds, but decided to look at the designs because of your comment. Yikes, is all I really have to say.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Its a genre with a long history of and reputation for being actively user hostile (what are the a chances a that the first time you playback a wizardry-clone game a you realise that the bonus points are a) on a roughly logarithmic probability scale and b) high enough for access to specific race / class combinations ?). This usually comes with awful documentation of what the various tools you have to overcome challenges so you have to catch up on about 40 years of mechanics blind.

And even if the particular game isn't they generally lack a "hook" since DRPGs aren't known for their quality of writing at the world level, character level (there usually aren't any actual characters just game mechanics with a couple of lines of text attached), or visual flair.

Taken together that gives you a pretty niche appeal and a negative incentive to check it out if something about a game may have caught you're eye.

There are games that play very similirly to DRPGs that manage to break out due to having hooks. I'm thinking of SMT particularly Persona for example. But there's also Dragon Quest in Japan. The weird bit is that pretty much any game does this successfully the stop counting as a DRPG despite the similarities.

 

[Wood Man]

Would Dark Souls be considered an evolved dungeon crawler?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Would Dark Souls be considered an evolved dungeon crawler?

If you count Diablo I guess Dark Souls counts to? I personally wouldn't usually count anything without a "party" or with very real time combat systems. But the definition of DRPG is imprecise enough you probably can (it's hard to come up with a definition ybsf doesn't clearly include games that usually aren't considered DRPGs).

 

[Forward]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

The Pure Grind (tm) is what holds it back. It is the double-edge sword that cuts off the majority and cleaves to a niche of diehard fans. The godawful "design choices" heavily strewn about the character portaits only serve to offer very valid non-gameplay for abstaining from them. I personally enjoy the grind, but fervently wish it would incorporate at least some form of potatoes to go with the meat of its gameplay. Adult character portraits would be nice too. EO: "Here there be dragons. No, not the elemental boss trifecta... the five 1000 year ladies killing them." :/

 

[Usobuko]

I don't enjoy first person perspective to be honest. It's like you're playing with just the menu, I need to be tricked by seeing full model characters I'm controlling.

Also, it's really tedious sometimes. I will typically clock one of these game per year and hits my quota for that year.

 

[Mozendo]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

No, it's fine as is.

 

[low-G]

How's Wizardry 8?

Never tried this series and this has been in my backlog forever. Love Etrian Odyssey.

Came into this thread to recommend Wizardry 8. Fantastic game. I wish there was something of this quality today. Probably the best of the genre IMO & probably the most unknown great RPG(ish)

It's a LOT more than just dungeon crawling. It's kinda like if you took Everquest 1 and added lots of details and single player progression. At times feels more fleshed out than a Bethesda RPG... (but similar scope)

 

[Arkkoran]

How's Wizardry 8?

Never tried this series and this has been in my backlog forever. Love Etrian Odyssey.

Great! You can't go wrong with 6 or 7 as well.

As stated before, if you do play 8, download the mod that speeds up/skips enemy animations in combat.

 

[Forward]

Came into this thread to recommend Wizardry 8. Fantastic game. I wish there was something of this quality today. Probably the best of the genre IMO & probably the most unknown great RPG(ish)

The only thing that works against it, after applying Flamestrike's mod (building your robot companion towards using his personalized staff is SO satisfying, among so many other new and improved things *cough* Lords */cough*), is how badly Mage nuke spells scale towards the mid-game, becoming utterly useless well before approaching the end.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

They're dry, grindy & repetitive. The question is, why did anyone continue to make them past 1984?

Spoiler

I liked Stranger of Sword City & Dark Spire.

 

[Voliko]

I like them but they can be: Way too long. Too repetitive (fight and heal against the same 4 groups of enemies over and over again).

I don't see why the majority of them still seem to use tile based dungeons. Free form dungeons could allow for more options when designing the dungeons.

 

[Renekton]

How's Wizardry 8?

Never tried this series and this has been in my backlog forever. Love Etrian Odyssey.

Too much combat, can't walk a few types without getting into a fight. Combat also takes longer to resolve than some other crawlers I've played with comparable quantity.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Dungeon crawlers are by their very nature on the niche end of an already niche genre. As a whole, they are light on story, have comparitively simple graphics, emphasize difficulty, and cater to a crowd of veteran enthusiasts. You can't make them more popular without changing what makes them what they are.

They have been around forever. Dungeon crawlers are among the earliest form of videogame RPG, and are based on the oldest form of tabletop RPG playstyle. In all of these years, no one has created one that has broken out in mainstream. On the other hand, they thrive as modest-budgeted games catering to their niche audience. I don't see that changing.

Basically my take. They are really gameplay focused turn based games in a time where larger audiences almost seem to view turn based gameplay as a flaw in design.

Take away the long stories that drive more typical turn based RPGs and the flashy animations that make the battles visually interesting and there's not really much there to appeal to non-enthusiasts.

I'm happy the games exist and I'm glad the games have their audience, but they're definitely not for me. Drawing maps in EO is not my idea of a good time unfortunately lol.

 

[Estoc]

The obvious answer for both SRPG and Dungeon RPG would be: Difficult strategic game don't sell to mainstream gamers that well.

However, with Dark Souls success, I think the more correct way to put it is: Difficult strategic game with no social elements and ways to circumvent the obstacles don't sell to mainstream gamers that well.

 

[Rabid Dwarf 76]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

The art style is awesome.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Basically my take. They are really gameplay focused turn based games in a time where larger audiences almost seem to view turn based gameplay as a flaw in design.

Take away the long stories that drive more typical turn based RPGs and the flashy animations that make the battles visually interesting and there's not really much there to appeal to non-enthusiasts.

I'm happy the games exist and I'm glad the games have their audience, but they're definitely not for me. Drawing maps in EO is not my idea of a good time unfortunately lol.

I think the entire notion of a "dungeon crawler" could be combined with SRPGs to make something pretty special. Think like Icewind Dale to Baldur's Gate.

This would be something focused on crawling through dungeons, engaging in complex encounters with lots of room for height, movement, etc. Maybe varied goals as well (so not every fight is "kill the monsters").

Basically a SRPG version of one of those D&D campaigns where you just dungeoncrawl the whole time.

 

[MontlyCure]

I would kind of consider a game like Demon's Souls to be an evolved version of the traditional dungeon crawler.

The problem I have with games like EO (though I only played the 3rd one) is that the gameplay can get repetitive and there isn't a whole lot of interesting stuff going on with the story. I loved SMT: Strange Journey, but without the story and interesting setting to keep me going, I don't know if I would have ever finished it.

 

[gforguava]

I am routinely put off by their presentation. The games just make it so hard to become engaged with them, so not only are they light on story but, as jiggle mentioned above, the 'portraits as characters' makes it hard to even care about your party.
Why combat is still uniformly presented as some variation of 'first person but your party doesn't really exist' is beyond me.

So you end up with a long, hard game(usually) that doesn't really give me a reason to want to come back to it. I used to love these games in the past, I love the original Lands of Lore, and I think a large part of the reason why was that they were more immersive than your average game. It was you and your party making your way through an elaborate game-space fighting a variety of monsters and dangers. But now the pendulum has swung the other way and they might be some of the least immersive games around.

 

[Some Nobody]

I'll say it again!

The pedo and ugly art style is holding EO back. Lots of people give it a pass because of how it looks.

EO's artstyle is about the only thing it has going for it. Dungeon RPGs are the pits, man. Can't stand first-person.

 

[Abilidebob]

Not everything has to be popular or try and expand its audience. Sometimes having its own little niche space is the best way forward.

 

[spiritfox]

Well I like the first person view. It lets you become part of your party rather than an omnipresent god hovering over the party. Also you can hide stuff around corners and use that as part of puzzle solving and as a scare factor.