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[FantasticMrFoxdie]

This new idea floating around is very interesting. I'm seeing folks say what if the White Walker threat was resolved this season, and dwindles the Dany/Jon forces to the point that the Cercei/Euron actually has the upper hand in season 8? The political conflicts is the crux of the show and the series should end with Human/Human as the core plot element. 80% of the series has been about the Great Game. It should end on that note. And it would be an excusable reason to allow cersei and Jaime to persist to the end instead of "Muh Plot Armuh".

I highly doubt that. All evidence points away from that. lol

The opening scene of the entire show starts with White Walkers, Winter is Coming/Here, etc.

I'm still waiting for people within Kings Landing to overthrow Cersei. Seems pretty stupid that after the huge following the High Sparrow gained, people there would not openly rebel Queen Cersei after she straight up murdered all those important, influential people.

 

[-griffy-]

Oh wait, just checked the wiki (this is from the Game of Thrones wiki so I assumed this stuff has been in official lore videos). Rhaella, while pregnant with Dany, fled to Dragonstone with Viserys after Rhaegar was killed by Robert at the Trident. Aerys was killed during the sack of King's Landing and Rhaella died giving birth to Dany on Dragonstone. Rhaella died in 282 AL and Lyanna died in 281 AL, so Jon IS older than Dany by a bit.

Also interesting that both Jon and Dany's mothers died in childbirth and they are perhaps both the prince/princess who were promised.

 

[Rolfgang]

lets make a bet! Who will be the king/queen of the 7 kingdoms?

>=D

I bet

Spoiler

SANSA

Stannis.

Yes, I believe he is alive. Brienne just couldn't kill him.

 

[OrionX]

Also interesting that both Jon and Dany's mothers died in childbirth and they are perhaps both the prince/princess who were promised.

Cersei: "We must not forget the murdering imp. He enjoys slaying mothers as well."

 

[Nameless]

You know I just realized how the show has slowly mixed in Jon and Dany's worlds prior to their meeting.

We had Ser Jorah meet with Sam.
We had Melisandre meet with Dany.
And now its Dany and Jon meeting.


Star crossed lovers yall! I stay shipping.

From the History & Lore series on the Blu-Ray extras a few seasons back(Lord of Light feature narrated by Thoros)

https://youtu.be/opJ7h5rwvjs

"According to prophecy, our champion will be reborn to wake dragons from stone and reforge the great sword Lightbringer that defeated the darkness those thousands of years ago -- if the old tales are true, that terrible weapon forged with the life blood of a loving wife's heart."

Dany and Jon getting together won't be so bad if it leads to Lightbringer! The fan out cry alone would be delicious.

 

[RyanardoDaVinci]

Also interesting that both Jon and Dany's mothers died in childbirth and they are perhaps both the prince/princess who were promised.

There's one more main character that had their mother die during childbirth...

 

[platypotamus]

"According to prophecy, our champion will be reborn to wake dragons from stone and reforge the great sword Lightbringer that defeated the darkness those thousands of years ago -- if the old tales are true, that terrible weapon forged with the life blood of a loving wife's heart.".

Does anybody know if that horse who's heart Dany ate in season 1 was married?

 

[aBarreras]

There's one more main character that had their mother die during childbirth...

there are three dragons, we need 3 riders

 

[-griffy-]

Cersei: "We must not forget the murdering imp. He enjoys slaying mothers as well."

There's one more main character that had their mother die during childbirth...

Sheeeit that's right.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Not sure if posted but this is amazing.

https://www.unilad.co.uk/news/hot-p...ns-bakery-called-you-know-nothing-john-dough/

 

[DragoonKain]

He's barely on the show, so people tend to forget about him, but I don't think they would have brought Benjen Stark back into the show last season for no reason. I think he could have a big part to play going forward.

He stopped himself(somehow) turning into a Wight. I think that will have some kind of significance in stopping the White Walkers. If they can figure out how he did it and magnify it, they can stop the White Walkers from growing their army of Wights. And to a more extreme, if they can reverse it, then they can wipe out almost all of their forces.

 

[Moff]

He's barely on the show, so people tend to forget about him, but I don't think they would have brought Benjen Stark back into the show last season for no reason. I think he could have a big part to play going forward.

He stopped himself(somehow) turning into a Wight. I think that will have some kind of significance in stopping the White Walkers. If they can figure out how he did it and magnify it, they can stop the White Walkers from growing their army of Wights. And to a more extreme, if they can reverse it, then they can wipe out almost all of their forces.

maybe he melted dragonglass and injected it or smoked it for a few days before he died and that stopped the transformation. Wouldn't that make sense?

 

[Haly]

maybe he melted dragonglass and injected it or smoked it for a few days before he died and that stopped the transformation. Wouldn't that make sense?

No, but it'd be metal as fuck.

 

[Einchy]

He's barely on the show, so people tend to forget about him, but I don't think they would have brought Benjen Stark back into the show last season for no reason. I think he could have a big part to play going forward.

He stopped himself(somehow) turning into a Wight. I think that will have some kind of significance in stopping the White Walkers. If they can figure out how he did it and magnify it, they can stop the White Walkers from growing their army of Wights. And to a more extreme, if they can reverse it, then they can wipe out almost all of their forces.

If The Night King does end up destroying The Wall, like a lot of people think, I'm sure Benjen will show up again after that. Right now he can't physically cross The Wall since he's considered a Wight.

Hopefully he has a big part in season 8.

 

[DragoonKain]

In Westeros, we smoke glass, not grass.

I could see it

 

[-griffy-]

maybe he melted dragonglass and injected it or smoked it for a few days before he died and that stopped the transformation. Wouldn't that make sense?

No, but it'd be metal as fuck.

They talk about this in the show, the children of the forest found him after he was stabbed by a white walker weapon but before he died, and plunged a shard of dragonglass into his heart to prevent him from turning.

Link to scene.

 

[Dai101]

Stannis.

Yes, I believe he is alive. Brienne just couldn't kill him.

Roose Bolton pretty much confirmed Stannis dead.

 

[Einchy]

Stannis.

Yes, I believe he is alive. Brienne just couldn't kill him.

Never got why people thought this. She has killed a ton of people, why wouldn't she be able to kill the person who killed the person she loved and set her on this whole journey? I'm thankful that Game of Thrones never does this annoying trope.

 

[Future PhaZe]

In hindsight Jaime losing his hand might have been one of Martins biggest mistakes. He could have still went through the same evolution as a character without being crippled I think, and as the Lannisters find themselves without allies, his lack of ability becomes even more pronounced. Jaime being the best swordsman in the world while being morally torn about his role in the war would be more ideal than what he's become now at this point.

 

[Moff]

In hindsight Jaime losing his hand might have been one of Martins biggest mistakes. He could have still went through the same evolution as a character without being crippled I think, and as the Lannisters find themselves without allies, his lack of ability becomes even more pronounced. Jaime being the best swordsman in the world while being morally torn about his role in the war would be more ideal than what he's become now at this point.

no
1. it was a great twist, him losing his hand is up there for me with the shows greates moments, among Ned's beheading, the red wedding, holding the door and the viper and the mountain. It really shocked me.
2. it taught Jaime modesty and made him a decent and very likeable character, it also gave us one of the shows best character moments with Brienne in the bathtub.

 

[Sephzilla]

In hindsight Jaime losing his hand might have been one of Martins biggest mistakes. He could have still went through the same evolution as a character without being crippled I think, and as the Lannisters find themselves without allies, his lack of ability becomes even more pronounced. Jaime being the best swordsman in the world while being morally torn about his role in the war would be more ideal than what he's become now at this point.

Yeah in hindsight it feels like an unnecessary thing to happen to the character. Jamie hasn't had to do much combat in a long time and his handicap hasn't been a story point for a few seasons. It's hard to judge though because it was a good shocking moment and a solid catalyst for some of his character development, but I think they could have achieved a lot of that development without losing his hand

 

[Freshmaker]

He's barely on the show, so people tend to forget about him, but I don't think they would have brought Benjen Stark back into the show last season for no reason. I think he could have a big part to play going forward.

He stopped himself(somehow) turning into a Wight. I think that will have some kind of significance in stopping the White Walkers. If they can figure out how he did it and magnify it, they can stop the White Walkers from growing their army of Wights. And to a more extreme, if they can reverse it, then they can wipe out almost all of their forces.

He didn't stop it. The children did that. They have limited resources for that kinda thing however.

 

[Nameless]

Stannis.

Yes, I believe he is alive. Brienne just couldn't kill him.

As someone who would dance naked by the sea if the One True King was a live, nah, he's deader than Syrio Forel who's deader than those two Sand Snakes.

Ned, Stannis, and the wolves are the only deaths that have really bummed me out so far. It's going to suck when Cersei and Mel go, but Arya dying = sick time. Not too worried about Jon.

 

[Pagusas]

In hindsight Jaime losing his hand might have been one of Martins biggest mistakes. He could have still went through the same evolution as a character without being crippled I think, and as the Lannisters find themselves without allies, his lack of ability becomes even more pronounced. Jaime being the best swordsman in the world while being morally torn about his role in the war would be more ideal than what he's become now at this point.

He doesn't need 2 hands to stab his sister in the back.

 

[Zyae]

In hindsight Jaime losing his hand might have been one of Martins biggest mistakes. He could have still went through the same evolution as a character without being crippled I think, and as the Lannisters find themselves without allies, his lack of ability becomes even more pronounced. Jaime being the best swordsman in the world while being morally torn about his role in the war would be more ideal than what he's become now at this point.

I know theres no book discussion allowed in here but just providing context,

Jaime losing his hand makes more sense to his character in the books than how they've ended up writing him in the show. They kind of flubbed Jaime in the show.

 

[Einchy]

I know theres no book discussion allowed in here but just providing context,

Jaime losing his hand makes more sense to his character in the books than how they've ended up writing him in the show. They kind of flubbed Jaime in the show.

I think that's just your expectations not lining up to the book because Jaime's character progression has not be flubbed up. He went from one of the most hated characters to one of the most beloved.

 

[Gnome]

I think that's just your expectations not lining up to the book because Jaime's character progression has not be flubbed up. He went from one of the most hated characters to one of the most beloved.

That change started in Season 3 and pretty much ended in Season 4. I think the real issue is that we're now 3 seasons out from then, and he's been pretty stagnant, just going on errands where Cersei wants him to go. Coming back each season and getting a pep talk from Cersei about how they're the only ones that matter or w/e. And he just kind of shrugs and goes "okay"...

Edit: Jaime getting his handed axed accomplished the change in both mediums the same. So it's definitely not a problem with that.

 

[Grinchy]

Why be upset about the death of Stannis? He did nothing but make horrible decisions.

 

[RulkezX]

I think that's just your expectations not lining up to the book because Jaime's character progression has not be flubbed up. He went from one of the most hated characters to one of the most beloved.

Jaime adds nothing at this point. He's just a big wet fart doing whatever his psycho sister tells him to.

If he died next week nothing would be lost. They handled the character change well until him and Brienne went their own ways and now he's just sorta there..... doing nothing.

 

[Nameless]

Why be upset about the death of Stannis? He did nothing but make horrible decisions.

Precisely. Mary Sue's are boring. Stannis was a flawed, fascinating character and I loved Dillane's performance. He went harder for the Throne than anyone we've seen and like Golem getting his ring back I wanted to see him take it. Bonus points for having Mel and Davos.

 

[Gnome]

The only people who dislike Stannis are the ones who want their stories to have straight up heroes. Fuck that noise, heroes are boring. Stannis is Byronic, which already makes him more interesting than 80% of the characters on the show.

 

[OrionX]

When Stannis showed that he was willing to burn his own child at the stake I prayed to both the old gods and the new that someone would end him quickly. I was very upset they didn't actually show Brienne kill him because I wanted to be 100% sure he was dead and never coming back.

 

[Gnome]

When Stannis showed that he was willing to burn his own child at the stake I prayed to both the old gods and the new that someone would end him quickly. I was very upset they didn't actually show Brienne kill him because I wanted to be 100% sure he was dead and never coming back.

They did that because the show has been ambivalent for a while about killing any characters that people actually like. So they made sure to have Stannis do something irredeemable. When D&D went on the post-episode talk and said "When George told us about this" or w/e, to offset the blame, most people were able to call bullshit.

 

[Pagusas]

The only people who dislike Stannis are the ones who want their stories to have straight up heroes. Fuck that noise, heroes are boring. Stannis is Byronic, which already makes him more interesting than 80% of the characters on the show.

I like that the story has Stanis, but saw him as another villain and hoped for his demise. So no I didn't "like" stanis, just like I didn't like Joffrey, both were villains you hope will lose, but they are great characters for the story.

 

[Ocarina_117]

I like that the story has Stanis, but saw him as another villain and hoped for his demise. So no I didn't "like" stanis, just like I didn't like Joffrey, both were villains you hope will lose, but they are great characters for the story.

But stannis went north to help the nights watch against the white walkers?

He planned on freeing the north from the Boltons.

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

Ned Stark died as he saw Stannis to be the rightful king, which he is. Robb Stark also saw Stannis to be the true king. Stannis was set up as a threat to the main villain of the first season, Cersei and the Lannisters.

In what way was he a villain?

Edit - Stannis burning his daughter also made no sense after the talk he gave her an episode earlier. Though it was telegraphed to happen and executed poorly, my biggest gripe with D&D. They deprived the world of a brilliant character.

On the topic of Jamie. His show arc was brilliant in the early seasons. For me it peaked at his talk with Brienne in the bath tub 'By what right does the wolf judge the lion'. His involvement in Tyrion's trial helped maintain him as a good character for another season. Season 5 onwards he's been pretty lame. Coping with life without a hand no longer became a character trait but a long running joke in the show when Jaimie bantered by another character. His fixation on Cersei has also become tiresome, along with his recurrent 'We really are the last of us' talks.

 

[Gnome]

I like that the story has Stanis, but saw him as another villain and hoped for his demise. So no I didn't "like" stanis, just like I didn't like Joffrey, both were villains you hope will lose, but they are great characters for the story.

Stannis was not a villain up until he burned his daughter to death. Nothing he ever did was out of pure malice. Comparing him to Joffrey is laughable.

 

[Nameless]

When Stannis showed that he was willing to burn his own child at the stake I prayed to both the old gods and the new that someone would end him quickly. I was very upset they didn't actually show Brienne kill him because I wanted to be 100% sure he was dead and never coming back.

That's how deep his delusion ran. He believed with every fiber that it was his destiny to be King and lead humanity through the Long Night. He knew it. And for a man like that who had an unnaturally unbending sense of honor & duty no sacrifice was too great.

The show definitely could have reinforced some that stuff better before he burned Shireen but it's all there.

 

[Pagusas]

Stannis was not a villain up until he burned his daughter to death. Nothing he ever did was out of pure malice. Comparing him to Joffrey is laughable.

.... did we watch the same show? He had his own brother murdered with dark magic. He burned people on the beach alive as he thought it would help him win the throne. He was fine having his own bastard blood murdered to help his own cause. That was all way before his own daughter. He was a villain, an evil, self absorbed, asshole villain.

 

[Gnome]

.... did we watch the same show? He had his own brother murdered with dark magic. He burned people on the beach alive as he thought it would help him win the throne. He was fine having his own bastard blood murdered to help his own cause. That was all way before his own daughter. He was a villain, an evil, self absorbed, asshole villain.

Nope, he was not self-absorbed in the least. And he didn't do the things he did with villainous intent. He thoroughly believed the things he did were for the good of humanity. He was putting the realms of men before himself and his own family. And Renly was a piece of shit, it was war, and the shadow baby was no different than simply hiring an assassin, albeit one with better efficiency. Him killing Renly avoided starting a larger war and getting thousands of people killed as well.

This.

That's how deep his delusion ran. He believed with every fiber that it was his destiny to be King and lead humanity through the Long Night. He knew it. And for a man like that who had an unnaturally unbending sense of honor & duty no sacrifice was too great.

The show definitely could have reinforced some that stuff better before he burned Shireen but it's all there.

 

[OrionX]

That's how deep his delusion ran. He believed with every fiber that it was his destiny to be King and lead humanity through the Long Night. He knew it. And for a man like that who had an unnaturally unbending sense of honor & duty no sacrifice was too great.

The show definitely could have reinforced some that stuff better before he burned Shireen but it's all there.

Oh I know Melisandre had him completely convinced that he was the savior and that everything was for the sake of fulfilling his destiny, and I do believe he actually loved Shireen, which they made sure to try and show us right before he pulled a 180 on her. There's just no justifying doing something so cruel, and it made me instantly despise him.

Davos said it best: "If he commands you to burn children, your Lord is evil."

 

[Pagusas]

Nope, he was not self-absorbed in the least. And he didn't do the things he did with villainous intent.

This.

I disagree with both of you. With your logic Claude Frollo from the Hunchback of Notre Dame wasnt a villian.

Davos said it best: "If he commands you to burn children, your Lord is evil."

This.

 

[Ocarina_117]

Davos said it best: "If he commands you to burn children, your Lord is evil."

But this is the lord we're seeing as the main opposition to the white walkers in this song of fire and ice. The lord who brought back who is seemingly the show's protagonist in Jon Snow. The lord Davos is now working for and called upon to save Jon Snow.

In ASOIAF there are no absolute goods vs absolute evils. In the early seasons of the show it's what made the series so captivating. The narrowing down of the story has abolished this aspect greatly and the show has suffered a lot for it.

 

[Gnome]

I disagree with both of you. With your logic Claude Frollo from the Hunchback of Notre Dame wasnt a villian.

Who was Claude Frollo trying to save?

This.

You must have missed the part where I said the showrunners only did that to justify making him hateable and a full on villain so they could kill him shortly after to peoples fanfare.

Up until that point he didn't do anything worth naming him a straight villain over.

 

[Vashetti]

While I ultimately dislike that he burnt his daughter, those last two eps of season 5 (5.09 and 5.10) covered Stannis' downfall so well.

It's just a constant series of setbacks for him.

Ramsay ambushes the camp, people desert
People starving/freezing, more desert
Can't progress due to the snow, burn Shireen
Selyse finally sees sense and realises what she's allowed to happen, hangs herself
Melisandre deserts
Marches on Winterfell with what little men are left, more desert as the cavalry charges toward them

Stephen Dillane gives a fantastic expression in the last shot of the Shireen burning scene

"What the hell have I done?"

 

[Jombie]

I agree with this article, in regards to Euron: https://www.google.com/amp/s/theringer.com/amp/p/8a5c88d831e9

 

[Gnome]

While I ultimately dislike that he burnt his daughter, those last two eps of season 5 (5.09 and 5.10) covered Stannis' downfall so well.

It's just a constant series of setbacks for him.

Ramsay ambushes the camp, people desert
People starving/freezing, more desert
Can't progress due to the snow, burn Shireen
Selyse finally sees sense and realises what she's allowed to happen, hangs herself
Melisandre deserts
Marches on Winterfell with what little men are left, more desert as the cavalry charges toward them

Stephen Dillane gives a fantastic expression in the last shot of the Shireen burning scene



"What the hell have I done?"

I would not ascribe these events to someone who's a villain either, they're much more fitting to a Shakespearean tragic hero.

 

[OrionX]

But this is the lord we're seeing as the main opposition to the white walkers in this song of fire and ice. The lord who brought back who is seemingly the show's protagonist in Jon Snow. The lord Davos is now working for and called upon to save Jon Snow.

In ASOIAF there are no absolute goods vs absolute evils. In the early seasons of the show it's what made the series so captivating. The narrowing down of the story has abolished this aspect greatly and the show has suffered a lot for it.

It's never been completely clear to me how much Melisandre explicitly knows and how much is just her getting vague ass messages and winging it lol. How do we know the Lord of Light's not sitting back somewhere saying "damn girl that ain't what I meant but I guess I can still work with this."

 

[Nameless]

Oh I know Melisandre had him completely convinced that he was the savior and that everything was for the sake of fulfilling his destiny, and I do believe he actually loved Shireen, which they made sure to try and show us right before he pulled a 180 on her. There's just no justifying doing something so cruel, and it made me instantly despise him.

Davos said it best: "If he commands you to burn children, your Lord is evil."

To be fair talking about the warped world view and character flaws that informed his decision making isn't justifying it. Murdering Shireen was barbaric, not even sure that needs to be said. Personally I would've let the frozen undead take Westeros before I burned my kid alive screaming. Better pick up a sword and hope for the best.

I disagree with both of you. With your logic Claude Frollo from the hunchback of notre dame wasnt a villian.



This.

What are we disagreeing on? My post had nothing to do with whether or not he was a villain.

 

[SerAardvark]

In ASOIAF there are no absolute goods vs absolute evils. In the early seasons of the show it's what made the series so captivating. The narrowing down of the story has abolished this aspect greatly and the show has suffered a lot for it.

The story has always had good and bad and everywhere in between when it comes to characters. Fans have always grossly exaggerated things by claiming that everything is morally gray or ambiguous.

And given the fact fans are still regularly debating the morality of the vast majority of the characters, I don't think the show is really lacking in that area.

 

[lastplayed]

Yes, he was with the Boltons at Harrenhal. As Robb's forces are approaching, The Mountain slaughters all the prisoners and abandons Harrenhal. Robb finds Qyburn there, barely alive. Robb later leaves for his grandfather's funeral leaving the Boltons in charge there when Jamie is brought in.

Yeah now I remember.

He was hand before Cercei was even crowned in last season's finale.

Yeah I noticed that when looking it up. I was like "who was even Hand last year" and remembering it was Kevan. Didn't leave much of an impression.