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[Napalm_Frank]

Sins of the father started playing while listening music with shuffle and the frustration came back, it's that time again.

More I think about it the thing that frustrates me the most about Phantom Pain is not the game being unfinished, kinda barebones storytelling for MGS or the unneccessary open world focus. What does still get to me is the tone of the narrative and what I consider to be almost a broken promise. You could compare it to MGS2 Raiden switcharoo except this time there is no meta message or a troll behind it.

MGSV E3 2013 trailer is one of the best there is and it was the trailer that really kickstarted my hype and it was because of the tone it promised for PP: game would be all about revenge. Revenge tales are pretty cool and all but I don't think I have ever played a videogame with the kind of intrique that was promised here. You would be a broken down soldier who gathers the remnants of your old group to set up a new mercenary unit whose sole objective is to get back at Cypher/Zero.

Everything about it was hammering in that Diamond Dogs weren't fucking around. There is the whole Kaz speech, Punished/Venom Snake, Ocelot torture, 100 tag lines about revenge ect.

Then the game comes out and Venom Snake is pretty chill dude all things considered. "Men become demons"? Not really. Kaz was the only character that somewhat had revenge driving him and he was by far the most interesting character in the game. In fact it feels almost like they completely rewrote the game in those 2 years before release to make the protagonists tamer, that or the trailer was just a smokescreen.

I'd get if they wanted to tone down the child soldier stuff (of which had scenes shown in the trailer but later removed) or the subject of race that supposedly was going to be a big deal but it feels extra insulting that for 2 games before MGSV Kojima already had this bait of "missing link between MGS3 and MG1, Big Boss totally gon turn evil at the end of this!" stuff which isn't that interesting in itself but in here it was practically promised to show him become if not a villain then at least a ruthless soldier driven by personal revenge. And it all boiled down to a scene where he had to kill some guys because he had no choise and he felt really bad afterward.

Why are we still here, just to suffer?

 

[Yoshichan]

Every single time this game gets brought up, my day kinda shallows.

It's frustrating, to say the least - I need to get over it.

 

[Smokey]

Personally one of my all time most disappointing games :/

 

[Foffy]

To the games defence, the subtitle "The Phantom Pain" is probably one of the most meta things in the universe.

How it applies to the plot, the game itself, what's missing, and the fanbase is amazing.

 

[BocoDragon]

Pretty much since MGS3, I don't think we are to assume that Big Boss "turns evil". That was the simplistic understanding of the protagonists in the old games. He's just a morally grey character who loses his faith in the West and carves out his own independent nation state, and we see that play out more or less (complicated by Venom Snake malarkey, but I digress).

As with most things MGSV, I don't take much disappointment in it. I had my expectations set that the series was finished with 4, and V would just be this odd little coda filling in details of the backstory. I wasn't expecting some hugely important new revelation to this series like some were.

I guess that Venom reveal was a new detail but it's so oddly unimportant. It seems mainly to explain how Snake could kill Big Boss in the first MG.

 

[Gorillaz]

I'm amazed that it still has the best controls and mechanics of the generation

Even when kojima the gawd loses he still wins

Edit:narrative wise 4 was my breaking point it was obvious kojima didn't have much else to say for the series so V wasn't that bad to me

 

[Juraash]

I'm in the process of replaying Metal Gear specifically to go through V for the first time. I know at least some of the twists in it already, so it's more to just finally see it through.

Threads like this give me real pause as to whether I should even bother. It seems like a...divisive game to say the least.

But I also like 4 the best which seems to be an equally touchy subject, soooooo maybe I'll like V. Other than the broad strokes and the general unhappiness with it here, I'm unsure what V is actually like to play.

 

[cj_iwakura]

We can fill in the blanks ourselves. At least we know what was meant to be there. Better than nothing.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

I'm in the process of replaying Metal Gear specifically to go through V for the first time. I know at least some of the twists in it already, so it's more to just finally see it through.

Threads like this give me real pause as to whether I should even bother. It seems like a...divisive game to say the least.

But I also like 4 the best which seems to be an equally touchy subject, soooooo maybe I'll like V. Other than the broad strokes and the general unhappiness with it here, I'm unsure what V is actually like to play.

MGSV is still one of the best games of the gen, easily.

It's just frustrating that it had the foundation to be something truly special. As in greatest games of all time tier.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm in the process of replaying Metal Gear specifically to go through V for the first time. I know at least some of the twists in it already, so it's more to just finally see it through.

Threads like this give me real pause as to whether I should even bother. It seems like a...divisive game to say the least.

But I also like 4 the best which seems to be an equally touchy subject, soooooo maybe I'll like V. Other than the broad strokes and the general unhappiness with it here, I'm unsure what V is actually like to play.

It's a fantastic videogame and I wouldn't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

The story is rather minimalist and concerned with very tangential details of the MGS mythos, so that's divisive. But in my opinion, the series was so throrougly wrapped up by previous entries that I don't know why people expect that much. It's a post-script to the series.

It's pretty much the opposite of 4, though. Much less story, much more game.

 

[sotojuan]

I guess I'm in the only person that "lost hope" or saw meh things to come since MGS4 and Peace Walker. I personally don't like Big Boss' story at all after MGS3. It could've been much simpler while retaining its MGS-style twists. And 4... wasn't a very fun stealth game. Two levels of sneaking through war, then stalking some guy in a city, and then finally sneaking but through robots were just not fun for me.

So I got what I expected with GZ and PP. Actually, I got much more than expected since the game was much better than 4.

 

[Spaghetti]

MGSV's story is definitely a missed opportunity, but how much of that is Kojima being unwilling to pull the trigger, or Konami making it incredibly difficult to finish the game as intended, is unknown.

Dumb shit like the vocal chord parasites was probably always going to be part of the mix, unfortunately.

 

[BocoDragon]

I guess I'm in the only person that "lost hope" or saw meh things to come since MGS4 and Peace Walker. I personally don't like Big Boss' story at all after MGS3. It could've been much simpler while retaining its MGS-style twists. And 4... wasn't a very fun stealth game. Two levels of sneaking through war, then stalking some guy in a city, and then finally sneaking but through robots were just not fun for me.

So I got what I expected with GZ and PP. Actually, I got much more than expected since the game was much better than 4.

I would have been fine if they ended Big Boss' story with MGS3. It told me everything I needed to know... he became disillusioned with the government. If the next time he showed up was Metal Gear 1 as a villain, that'd say it all.

 

[PK Gaming]

Every single time this game gets brought up, my day kinda shallows.

It's frustrating, to say the least - I need to get over it.

You definitely need to get over it if it's affecting you to such a degree!

 

[EvB]

To the games defence, the subtitle "The Phantom Pain" is probably one of the most meta things in the universe.

How it applies to the plot, the game itself, what's missing, and the fanbase is amazing.

Only Kojima could be such a genius to make the game with a missing limb

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I had my expectations set that the series was finished with 4, and V would just be this odd little coda filling in details of the backstory. I wasn't expecting some hugely important new revelation to this series like some were.

This is my attitude, really. I didn't go into MGSV expecting anything major storywise; the story clearly wrapped itself up with 4 and I didn't think Peace Walker's story was compelling at all. V's marketing did trump the game up to be more dramatic than it was, which I guess was a bit misleading, but I didn't immerse myself in the game's pre-release hype cycle so I guess that didn't bother me.

I'm not sure if we're not supposed to believe that Big Boss didn't, in fact, turn "evil", unless we just aren't supposed to take Metal Gear 2 as absolute canon (which could be the case). That game does pretty definitively show him training child soldiers and ranting about wanting to create a world of constant war so he can get more children to brainwash - and the fact that Big Boss directly says that he regrets the way he lived and the things he did in MGS4 suggest to me that we probably should take that element of his character as canon still. (Regardless, I think we totally did see Big Boss's "turning evil" moment, just not as dramatically as we would have hoped. The fact that Big Boss would even use Venom Snake the way he did shows that he's sunken from what he was back in MGS3.)

 

[chronic_archaic]

I loved it, but had no real interest in the series before the announcement and if it weren't for the lack of 360 releases in 2015 I very likely would have skipped it. It's one of my favorite games of the gen and I'm beating it again on my Xbox One - 60fps so good.

 

[Alienous]

They missed such a golden opportunity.

All they had to do was take the premise - an injured Big Boss (scarred physically and mentally) seeking revenge - and that would have been enough. Just have him doing a series of messed up acts with a single-minded focus on vengeance. Acts that irrevocably damage any idea of him being a hero.

But instead he's this placid guy. You hire this actor who could pull off a 'should he be doing this' torture scene, but make him the dude stopping the torture. What?

I think Kojima grew to like Big Boss too much to give him the 'heel turn' he deserved.

 

[Col.Asher]

I loved playing part one. Part two was just a slog. MGSV has great gameplay bogged down by a shit story, awful real world timers, and the mother base mechanics. I also miss all the real world guns, MGS4 had a bunch.

 

[Toparaman]

I enjoyed it a lot. No sadness on my part.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

They missed such a golden opportunity.

All they had to do was take the premise - an injured Big Boss (scarred physically and mentally) seeking revenge - and that would have been enough. Just have him doing a series of messed up acts with a single-minded focus on vengeance. Acts that irrevocably damage any idea of him being a hero.

But instead he's this placid guy. You hire this actor who could pull off a 'should he be doing this' torture scene, but make him the dude stopping the torture. What?

I think Kojima grew to like Big Boss too much to give him the 'heel turn' he deserved.

I hate Big Boss much more after playing TPP than anything with him as the focus could have done. I feel like if we had played as him, it would have been too easy to sympathize with him. Kojima really delivered on turning Big Boss into a villain with V imo.

 

[BocoDragon]

This is my attitude, really. I didn't go into MGSV expecting anything major storywise; the story clearly wrapped itself up with 4 and I didn't think Peace Walker's story was compelling at all. V's marketing did trump the game up to be more dramatic than it was, which I guess was a bit misleading, but I didn't immerse myself in the game's pre-release hype cycle so I guess that didn't bother me.

I'm not sure if we're not supposed to believe that Big Boss didn't, in fact, turn "evil", unless we just aren't supposed to take Metal Gear 2 as absolute canon (which could be the case). That game does pretty definitively show him training child soldiers and ranting about wanting to create a world of constant war so he can get more children to brainwash - and the fact that Big Boss directly says that he regrets the way he lived and the things he did in MGS4 suggest to me that we probably should take that element of his character as canon still. (Regardless, I think we totally did see Big Boss's "turning evil" moment, just not as dramatically as we would have hoped. The fact that Big Boss would even use Venom Snake the way he did shows that he's sunken from what he was back in MGS3.)

Good point about Metal Gear 2's more maniacal Big Boss.

I wasn't so much saying that Big Boss was a secret hero or wouldn't be considered evil by the outside world. But that I wasn't expecting MGSV as a narrative to have a "Revenge of the Sith" conclusion where he embraces his villainy in a cartoonish way. Or even in a Breaking Bad sense. I think Kojima wanted to humanize and rationalize why he became a character that the world hates. I can't explain that MG2 dialogue though.

 

[yanipheonu]

I mean, despite all the game's flaws, they did at least manage to get revenge.

 

[swearing-circle]

Big Boss is shown to be a hypocrite and a not so great guy in V. He uses his best soldier to take the fall for him while manipulating shit from behind the scenes. He did to Venom the exact same thing he hated the US for when they used The Boss as the fall guy.

The star of bethlehem at the start of the game and Venom's speech in the nuclear disarmament ending show that Venom has a lot in common with The Boss.

Kojima has always tried to subvert fan expectations and I'm personally glad we didn't get a darth Vader turn to evil. I personally felt it was far more subtle and interesting in the game.

 

[VDenter]

I am shocked that people fell for the marketing hype yet again. After MGS2 i kind of expected people to expect this kind of stuff from Kojima in the future and not fall for stuff that shows up in the trailers. Personally i am glad that the game did not fall into another MGS4 type scenario, where its only reason to exist is to please the fans and nothing else. It kind of seemed obvious from GZ and Peace Walker that Kojima was done with long winded 1-2 hour cut scenes and boring power-point presentations that plagued MGS4. Big Boss was already shown to be a villain at the end MGS3 and the entirety of Peace Walker so i have no idea what anybody expected? Its not like it was a broken promise because we already saw everything in the previous games.

Now i am not defending MGSVs narrative because in all honesty it is just as bad as MGS4. The thing is i kind of did not mind it because MGSV still remembered to be a game at the end of the day and as a game it was one of the most satisfying games ever released and offered more Gameplay content than all the rest of the MGS games combined. So it is not difficulty for me to overlook some unfinished aspects of MGSV and a bland filler side story.

Only one mission got cut and nothing else. Granted the way they presented Chapter 2 makes it seem more unfinished than it actually is but people throw around hyperbole that the game is "unfinished". if i had to bet MGS4 probably had way more stuff cut out considering how hollow that game feels but that is besides the point.
There is a difference between a game not being what you might of have wanted and a game being unfinished or bad. MGSV was awesome and it succeed in its goals admirably.

 

[LordKasual]

This game was so disappointing that i didn't even finish it.

That original trailer LITERALLY had every interesting scene in the game inside it.

It also had some of THE worst boss fights of this generation, hands down

Now i am not defending MGSVs narrative because in all honesty it is just as bad as MGS4. The thing is i kind of did not mind it because MGSV still remembered to be a game at the end of the day and as a game it was one of the most satisfying games ever released and offered more Gameplay content than all the rest of the MGS games combined. So it is not difficulty for me to overlook some unfinished aspects of MGSV and a bland filler side story.

I REALLY can't agree with this anymore. Looking back on MGSV...what did you even really do that compares to MGS4's scenario?

MGSV had "great gameplay" in the sense that the sandbox nature of the game worked extremely well.....but that just was not enough to carry the entire game.

MGS5 felt like GTA5 if you removed all the actual missions from the game and just told you to travel to places on the map and shoot people. You get more unique gameplay out of the first half of MGS3 than the entirety of MGSV.

 

[disappeared]

Why are we here?

Just to suffer?



Kaz had no chill.

 

[DrFunk]

Incredibly disappointing game

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Big Boss is shown to be a hypocrite and a not so great guy in V. He uses his best soldier to take the fall for him while manipulating shit from behind the scenes. He did to Venom the exact same thing he hated the US for when they used The Boss as the fall guy.

The star of bethlehem at the start of the game and Venom's speech in the nuclear disarmament ending show that Venom has a lot in common with The Boss.

Kojima has always tried to subvert fan expectations and I'm personally glad we didn't get a darth Vader turn to evil. I personally felt it was far more subtle and interesting in the game.

What I was trying to say in the OP was that "turning into villain" wasn't really what interested me rather than the theme of revenge and the overall tone. Venom could still have been able to be relatively "good guy" while being totally driven by revenge and ruthless against bad guys with the biggest moral issue being the use of torture for example.

What we got was just a decent guy that didn't feel like he was driven by anything.

 

[ScottFarRoad]

It's still my favourite game this gen. It feels like the ultimate way a retro game could be brought into the modern era.

And for MGS to go from "great story, try and ignore the annoying controls" to "best controls of any AAA this generation" is something.

This wasn't a story focused MGS. That seems to have annoyed people. for me it was exactly what I wanted after MGS4 with its endless cutscenes.

And I like the slightly broken, weird, story. What cutscenes there are still the best directed out of any recent game (acting is a draw). The real, make you gasp, story moments happen live, as you're playing.

The spirit of Kojima is still alive and well in this game, and that's why I play Metal Gear games.

And never has finding a cassette tape felt better...

 

[Bubbavelli]

Big mgs fan here. Some of my earliest video game memories involve hearing a retelling of MGS1 from a cousin that I no longer see any more.

I bought it day one on PS3 because that was the only console I had at the time. That game took a piece out of my soul I will never get back.


This past Christmas, I bought it again for my modern pc with AmazonBux that I won at a work party. Didnt get past saving Huey because it hurt too much

Clearly Im a masochist.

 

[Ratrat]

The story is a huge missed opprotunity. Thankfully its got some of the best gameplay around.

 

[CalamityPixel]

Konami sent us to hell, but we're going even deeper. Take back everything that's ours.

 

[moltonasty]

The game is a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. The 77 hours I put in are some of the most fun I've had this gen. The gameplay is fucking sublime! As far as missing story content, yeah it would've been nice to have of course but I enjoyed what was there. It's typical MGS batshit insanity, and I don't see how vocal chord parasites are any crazier than things they've done in previous games. The twist with Venom was pretty enjoyable for me as well.

 

[Holiday]

OP is right about the 2013 trailer. That was probably the most emotional and most engrossing trailer that I've seen. The way the story went just undercut that so hard that it was difficult for me to see any bright spots afterward.

 

[Gator86]

The idea of a hack like Kojima trying to tackle a subject with the complexity of race is horrifying. Hard to imagine a way MGS5 could have made people more ashamed of their words and deeds.

MGS5 is somehow underrated now though. The gameplay is just terrific.

 

[Gnome Scat]

OP is right about the 2013 trailer. That was probably the most emotional and most engrossing trailer that I've seen. The way the story went just undercut that so hard that it was difficult for me to see any bright spots afterward.

All of those trailers made this game look like the most epic and emotional thing to grace gaming.

Shame how it turned out.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

The idea of a hack like Kojima trying to tackle a subject with the complexity of race is horrifying. Hard to imagine a way MGS5 could have made people more ashamed of their words and deeds.

Kojima is not a hack though.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Kojima has some of the funnest incomplete games around.

 

[tesqui]

I get urges to replay this game like once a month. I don't know why I think about it so much. (probably because it's brought up so much on gaf) The unfinished story and all that doesn't bother me at all. I had an extremely good time playing this game. It's the best and most fun stealth game I've ever played.

 

[Alastor3]

Yep, I played ALL of the metal gear, including msx, ac!d, except Babel on GBC i think, anyway, and I still haven't played MGS5 because I know I will be freaking disappointed by the story not reaching a conclusion.....

 

[120v]

i think MGSV was conceptualized as a soft reboot... the story was more or less intended to be a blank slate to acclimate you to that sort of metal gear experience. the modus operandi was to have you playing a free form stealth experience as opposed to knocking you--or more importanly, players not super familiar with past games-- over the head with lore, 30 min scripted sequences, ect...

you have to keep in mind it wasn't intended as the finale. i think the next few games (or additional MGSV "chapters") were supposed to be the "breaking bad of metal gear" everybody wanted , Phantom Pain was sort of a prelude to this new kind of MGS experience, and the red meat would come later

that's why i really can't fault the game in and of itself too much. i guess you can rightfully point fingers at false advertising but when do years-out e3 trailers ever match the finished product

 

[RK9039]

fuck this game

 

[RandomExpletive]

I certainly don't regret buying MGSV, or spending 250 hours in it.

I don't remember who said it but its brought up every thread in some fashion or another

GREAT 3rd person action game, mediocre metal gear game


I hope god smiles upon us and konami turns mgs survive into a pubg rip-off

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Most disappointing game of all time for me. I hated it.

It was almost topped that year by Xenoblade Chronicles X in terms of being a complete disappointment, but no. MGSV reigns supreme.

 

[falconxcrunner09]

Most disappointing game of all time for me. I hated it.

It was almost topped that year by Xenoblade Chronicles X in terms of being a complete disappointment, but no. MGSV reigns supreme.

In the same boat, except I found XCX to be a really shitty game and not just disappointing. MGSV in particular has taught me never to be so hyped for a game ever again and to level my expectations.

 

[peppers]

Yes.

It really is a phantom pain.

 

[TissueBox]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc0EzLc7NZg

 

[novenD]

SPOILERS FOR THE ENDING OF MGSV FOLLOW
DON'T BLAME ME IF YOU CLICK IT AND HAVE IT RUINED FOR YOU YOU MORON

Ahem.

Now that that's out of the way....

Spoiler

So I have some pretty serious problems with the narrative in The Phantom Pain, but the way Big Boss's fall is handled is actually brilliant.

So one of the big themes, if not THE theme, of MGS is the conflict between free will and genetic and environmental influences. Liquid's dominant and recessive genes thing, all the talk about memes in MGS2 and Rising, Ect.

The introduction of Venom and how his story ties into Big Boss's not only serves to fit MGSV into the same "canon" as the rest of the series, but also to hold BB accountable for his actions in this game and every other game in the series.

Venom's existence is, in of itself, a crime against humanity. Big Boss takes one of his most loyal men/women(!), and essentially steals their life. He takes their body, their name, their thoughts and memories, and replaces them with his own. Why? So he can use Venom as a decoy to keep his enemies off his back while he recovers from his injuries in Ground Zeros.

Big Boss condemns someone to a fate arguable worse than death because he is coward.

As if that wasn't enough, the major decisions Venom makes throughout the game echo choices that Big Boss has made or will make. For example, contrast Venom's desire to rescue the child soldiers and give them a life free from war with Big Boss's desire to use them as weapons in MGS2. Venom has (or thinks he has) the same history as Big Boss, the same influences, but he chooses differently regardless.

The same can be said for other parts of the story(Venom's care for his men vs. BB's disregard for them, to name one), and they all emphasize that Big Boss, and Big Boss alone, is responsible for his actions; his fall isn't an inevitable consequence of his past.

So, yeah. Props to anyone who actually read this rambling.

Note: I have not played MGSV.

EDIT: well shit swearing-circle, congrats on not taking ten years to say what I was trying to say

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Not going for revenge is the point of the game. Big Boss is a piece of shit. He uses child soldiers and nukes, as shown by Peace Walker. Venom is better than that. He spares Quiet. He spares POS Huey. He tries to give child soldiers a violence-less life. He strives for worldwide nuclear disarmament. The ending shows that he eventually gives in to his demon and becomes Big Boss. Many people interpret Big Boss saying that Venom is Big Boss as an acknowledgement of the player's skill. "The player is big boss just like Venom is". But this is a fundamental misreading of the game. Big Boss is Venom's demon. He represents the worst part of Venom. Throughout the ga Venom manages to overcome this dark side of himself and be better. But in the end he succumbs and completely becomes Big Boss (as represented by the smashing of the mirror)

Likewise, Big Boss is the demon of the loser fat nerd (or effeminate Raiden) player who plays these games. Just like a child soldier playing games since you were a kid has made you think that someone like Peace Walker Big Boss is a hero. But he is fucking scum. And by emphasizing by him you are no better. MGSV is meant to contrast good guy (initially) Venom (and Solid Snake and MGS2 Raiden) with piece of shit Big Boss and piece of shit player who empathizes with real Big Boss. 1984 Venom is thrice the man you are.

I'm drunk, so maybe I can't express myself in a way that's understandable, but this makes perfect sense to me even when I'm sober