Holy shit it all makes sense now.
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Remembering MGSV and getting sad part XI: audience robbed of revenge
- Thread starter Napalm_Frank
- Start date
Holy shit it all makes sense now.
The Cartographer
Member
V is an unnecessary MG title, even for an alternative game in the series (that's what it is) and it's also an anathema, both to its own series and creators.
Punished_Snake
Member
MGSV is one of my favorite MGS games and Kojima not doing the predictable story of big boss went villain because he is recruiting children and that stuff is why I love the game.
Edit: Kojima's advice to the director of the MGS movie is "Betray your audience's expectations", that said it all.
Edit: Kojima's advice to the director of the MGS movie is "Betray your audience's expectations", that said it all.
Kojima was praised for his meta stuff all the time so that he brought the most meta mgs that he could pull.
As for myself, I loved the meta narrative and it tops even mgs2 in its ideas. The whole theme and story developments are there, but they don't exist to slap everything in your face. You are actually part of the story because the game treats you like the phantom that Venom really is. I am a big fan of alternative approaches to interactive media and my most beloved narratives are those, that tackle my thoughts way after consuming the medium.
I dont want to say that mgsv is in fact awesome, because everyone has his own demands getting fun out of something. But given the whole mg universe and how you are wrapped inside that little story that was the start of the whole downfall afterwards entertained me tremendously.
The revenge, the phantom pain, the "full circle".. Everything is absolutely there, but it is not presented in a way that pleases the demands of every gamer.
Actually, who thinks BB and others didnt become demons in the process of mgsv has actually failed how things went down.
I think that Kojima started his idea of merging movies with games and how the universes are endless in its own. MGSV is a little but important gear in the whole MG universe and the narrative put you as an observer and victim of the plot to tell a bit of a huge universe.
I will not claim that everyone has to enjoy that. But as a huge fan of the universe, I was extremely pleased how this part of MG was shown to me.
The missing end that is often brought up is also a thing that just clashes with the expectations of people. It is a bridge to things that happen in MG1 and it really worked for me.
But in reality, I really can understand if someone was let down by this approach and expected MGSV to be totally different.
As for myself, I loved the meta narrative and it tops even mgs2 in its ideas. The whole theme and story developments are there, but they don't exist to slap everything in your face. You are actually part of the story because the game treats you like the phantom that Venom really is. I am a big fan of alternative approaches to interactive media and my most beloved narratives are those, that tackle my thoughts way after consuming the medium.
I dont want to say that mgsv is in fact awesome, because everyone has his own demands getting fun out of something. But given the whole mg universe and how you are wrapped inside that little story that was the start of the whole downfall afterwards entertained me tremendously.
The revenge, the phantom pain, the "full circle".. Everything is absolutely there, but it is not presented in a way that pleases the demands of every gamer.
Actually, who thinks BB and others didnt become demons in the process of mgsv has actually failed how things went down.
I think that Kojima started his idea of merging movies with games and how the universes are endless in its own. MGSV is a little but important gear in the whole MG universe and the narrative put you as an observer and victim of the plot to tell a bit of a huge universe.
I will not claim that everyone has to enjoy that. But as a huge fan of the universe, I was extremely pleased how this part of MG was shown to me.
The missing end that is often brought up is also a thing that just clashes with the expectations of people. It is a bridge to things that happen in MG1 and it really worked for me.
But in reality, I really can understand if someone was let down by this approach and expected MGSV to be totally different.
xviper
Member
when you expect a 8 hours of cutscenes and amazing story, you're gonna be disappointed as fuck
but when you expect an amazing new game, you will enjoy the fuck out of this masterpiece
when i played Peace walker, i couldn't stand it as it wasn't MGS, it was boring and cound't keep playing, then i read that The phantom Pain is like Peace Walker, so i expected something different from the mainline MGS games which is exactly what we got
what i didn't expect that disappointed me in MGS V is the lack of cutscenes, no bosses aside from Quiet and sahalantherpus, no big buildings to enter and have a whole quest in a huge building, repetitive quests and empty world
about 5 hours in i knew this isn't an MGS game so i played it as a new ip, same thing with Breath of the wild
play MGS V as a new ip and see how amazing it is, to this day, nothing is close of how good the gameplay is, the controls are perfection, building your base is awesome and makes you be careful on who to kill and who to not so you can bring them to your base and upgrade it, the camera movement during cutscenes never cut, just 1 shot, i wish more games did that, the cutscenes were well performed, their only flaw is that they had too much slow motion
it's sad to see that when someone talks about MGS V, they only talk about the single player, the game had 3 modes, single player, Multiplayer and infiltration
the MP was awesome but too short on content, it was weird because the single player is huge on content
infiltration is fun but you won't be playing it for that long, it's like Soulsborne X MGS
overall, to me, MGS V is a masterpiece, but sadly, an unfinished masterpiece
but when you expect an amazing new game, you will enjoy the fuck out of this masterpiece
when i played Peace walker, i couldn't stand it as it wasn't MGS, it was boring and cound't keep playing, then i read that The phantom Pain is like Peace Walker, so i expected something different from the mainline MGS games which is exactly what we got
what i didn't expect that disappointed me in MGS V is the lack of cutscenes, no bosses aside from Quiet and sahalantherpus, no big buildings to enter and have a whole quest in a huge building, repetitive quests and empty world
about 5 hours in i knew this isn't an MGS game so i played it as a new ip, same thing with Breath of the wild
play MGS V as a new ip and see how amazing it is, to this day, nothing is close of how good the gameplay is, the controls are perfection, building your base is awesome and makes you be careful on who to kill and who to not so you can bring them to your base and upgrade it, the camera movement during cutscenes never cut, just 1 shot, i wish more games did that, the cutscenes were well performed, their only flaw is that they had too much slow motion
it's sad to see that when someone talks about MGS V, they only talk about the single player, the game had 3 modes, single player, Multiplayer and infiltration
the MP was awesome but too short on content, it was weird because the single player is huge on content
infiltration is fun but you won't be playing it for that long, it's like Soulsborne X MGS
overall, to me, MGS V is a masterpiece, but sadly, an unfinished masterpiece
Mr.Deadshot
Member
Most disappointing game ever.
Dr. Carroll
Banned
MGS V is a very good game, but its open world is dead and devoid of both meaning and curiosity. Which is a shame. Even Peace Walker had fun and cool stuff to find as you played the game. MGS V has jack shit. It also pushes too much busywork onto the player. And in the grand scheme of things, I think Splinter Cell: Blacklist was a better game.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Interesting thing is, game has like 4 hours or something of cutscenes probably. I added up the Mother Base cutscenes alone at a bit over 2 hours. It's even got the longest 'movie version' video on Youtube when you throw in all the 'codecs/tapes,' something like 8-9 hours long.
Though it never really feels like it because unlike the other games where the scenes/arcs follow an arc, in V they sort of feel like Bloomberg news videos, 'Live from Mother Base,' just random news events tagged under Diamond Dogs. Kind of cool for the open world game/private army theme/atmosphere but pretty poor at building a story arc.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
One of the reasons i'm okay this game turned out the way it did.
Most Meta MGS is best MGS. In the Top V of my MGS games
I'll be honest, i don't get why people are still so worked up on this game...
MGS is one of my favorite series ever so i understand some of the feelings around here but we should have been well prepared on the fact that the game would have been botched one way or another... what was it? 6 months before launch that we had the news that Kojima was being obstructed in completing the game?
In the end we got a game that story wise is nowhere near the standards of the series but to compensate it has the best gameplay of any games that i've ever played in my life.
Am i disappointed on how the story was/wasn't told? Yes but i got over it because i knew well ahead of the time that the game entered development inferno way before its completion.
TL;DR Let it go.
MGS is one of my favorite series ever so i understand some of the feelings around here but we should have been well prepared on the fact that the game would have been botched one way or another... what was it? 6 months before launch that we had the news that Kojima was being obstructed in completing the game?
In the end we got a game that story wise is nowhere near the standards of the series but to compensate it has the best gameplay of any games that i've ever played in my life.
Am i disappointed on how the story was/wasn't told? Yes but i got over it because i knew well ahead of the time that the game entered development inferno way before its completion.
TL;DR Let it go.
Don'tBeWeird
Member
Best game of the generation. Fucking love it. The gameplay is still king.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Or even when
Quiet left for good. I felt a phantom pain for a couple months after that, a phantom pain where my sniper used to be.
Any bad thought I had of her design:I felt ashamed for my words and deeds. I just wanted my sniper back.
Felt like purposeful my Kojima. 'You guys hate Quiet's design? How about after 50+ hours of getting used to your sniper, I take her away! Give you another phantom pain, and make you ashamed for your words and deeds"
Adding her back was good gameplay patch much later on, but was pretty good move for her to leave.
Game gave you phantom pain about:
- Kojima leaving MGS;
- Chapter 2 being unfinished or no Mission 51;
- Venom not being Naked Snake;
- Quiet leaving;
- heck even no Hayter as Snake or Keaton as Ocelot;
- and then obviously the arm thing being the only thing not meta
Any bad thought I had of her design:I felt ashamed for my words and deeds. I just wanted my sniper back.
Felt like purposeful my Kojima. 'You guys hate Quiet's design? How about after 50+ hours of getting used to your sniper, I take her away! Give you another phantom pain, and make you ashamed for your words and deeds"
Adding her back was good gameplay patch much later on, but was pretty good move for her to leave.
Game gave you phantom pain about:
- Kojima leaving MGS;
- Chapter 2 being unfinished or no Mission 51;
- Venom not being Naked Snake;
- Quiet leaving;
- heck even no Hayter as Snake or Keaton as Ocelot;
- and then obviously the arm thing being the only thing not meta
Chapter 2 was basically a never ending feeling of phantom pain lol.
Itchy//Tasty
Member
Robbed feels a bit strong wording for a game that gave me 200 hours of fun, with completely perfect controls, missions, AI and mechanics. I mean the game would still be in my top five of this gen.
On the other hand, I know what you're saying. The game was VERY different to what we thought we were getting. And the vast majority of story was given away in Kojima's trailers. But I've learnt to appreciate what we did get.
On the other hand, I know what you're saying. The game was VERY different to what we thought we were getting. And the vast majority of story was given away in Kojima's trailers. But I've learnt to appreciate what we did get.
Man.. sometimes it's good to skip all the pre-release marketing and just jump in when it's released. While people were still bitching on about that trailer, I could just enjoy the game.
The game's narrative was fulfilling for me. It made a point to create a contrast between Venom and Big Boss and it worked out well. The revenge part certainly fell short, but I think that was the point.
The game's narrative was fulfilling for me. It made a point to create a contrast between Venom and Big Boss and it worked out well. The revenge part certainly fell short, but I think that was the point.
Jawmuncher
Member
After MGS4, MGSV actually restored my faith in the franchise even with its weak story. I will agree that the whole "missing link" advertising should've been dropped though. Since all things considered, story wise it's a really unneeded game.
Turin Turambar
Member
Novel Mike
Member
Honestly the story sucks but what baffles me is everyone saying the gameplay is perfect or at the very least makes up for the god awful and unfinished story.
I thought the gameplay was deeply flawed. Almost every single scenario can be solved by doing the same things over and over again (snipe enemies from afar, move in and do whatever you need to do) and the open world was completely pointless and actually hurts the overall structure of the gameplay because you end up going to the same locations over and over again fighting the same enemies over and over again making it excessively repetitive. On top of that the open world is completely empty with only enemy bases and random wildlife spread across the various empty looking zones. If this game had not tried to force an open world into its gameplay you wouldn't have such obvious problems. It's the same problem that I had with FF15, open worlds are hard to do right and when they are empty and meaningless outside of just showcasing how BIG you make your world then it becomes increasingly pointless.
What really screws up the gameplay though are the boss battles. A few are okay but most are an exercise in frustration either for being mind numbing easy or stupidly hard. None of them are ever actually fun and they ALL show just how poorly the actual gameplay holds up when you are put into a direct scenario against a boss compared to the open world missions that the gameplay was designed around.
MGSV is not a good game, I think the praise it gets is only because we don't have anything better to compare it to. It certainly has a lot of things to like about it but I think if Kojima has gotten the time and resources to make the game he wanted to make we wouldn't have ended up with anything like this. It screams about how rushed out it was not just from the story but from the repeating missions to the same areas being used over and over again.
I thought the gameplay was deeply flawed. Almost every single scenario can be solved by doing the same things over and over again (snipe enemies from afar, move in and do whatever you need to do) and the open world was completely pointless and actually hurts the overall structure of the gameplay because you end up going to the same locations over and over again fighting the same enemies over and over again making it excessively repetitive. On top of that the open world is completely empty with only enemy bases and random wildlife spread across the various empty looking zones. If this game had not tried to force an open world into its gameplay you wouldn't have such obvious problems. It's the same problem that I had with FF15, open worlds are hard to do right and when they are empty and meaningless outside of just showcasing how BIG you make your world then it becomes increasingly pointless.
What really screws up the gameplay though are the boss battles. A few are okay but most are an exercise in frustration either for being mind numbing easy or stupidly hard. None of them are ever actually fun and they ALL show just how poorly the actual gameplay holds up when you are put into a direct scenario against a boss compared to the open world missions that the gameplay was designed around.
MGSV is not a good game, I think the praise it gets is only because we don't have anything better to compare it to. It certainly has a lot of things to like about it but I think if Kojima has gotten the time and resources to make the game he wanted to make we wouldn't have ended up with anything like this. It screams about how rushed out it was not just from the story but from the repeating missions to the same areas being used over and over again.
This... the trailer implied some dark stuff (killing children) but in game we get the exact opposite. The main character was just a 0, no excitement or energy
Or even whenQuiet left for good. I felt a phantom pain for a couple months after that, a phantom pain where my sniper used to be.
Any bad thought I had of her design:I felt ashamed for my words and deeds. I just wanted my sniper back.
Felt like purposeful my Kojima. 'You guys hate Quiet's design? How about after 50+ hours of getting used to your sniper, I take her away! Give you another phantom pain, and make you ashamed for your words and deeds"
Adding her back was good gameplay patch much later on, but was pretty good move for her to leave.
Yeah, it was pretty great how this sentence from Koji can get an entirely different meaning than what most are thinking.
So regarding the story, on the Giant Bomb GOTY podcasts, Jeff theorized that
I think the game is extremely fun to play. I did almost every single side op, even though they were so repetitive. But my favorite game in the series is still MGS3.
The game is called Metal Gear Solid V rather than 5 (unlike the rest of the series which has not used Roman numerals) because the whole game is a side story about a different character. He said that it is basically a fake sequel, but it's only cool if Kojima then gets to make the real MGS5 and clearly things did not pan out that way.
I think the game is extremely fun to play. I did almost every single side op, even though they were so repetitive. But my favorite game in the series is still MGS3.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
There was an MGS trailer that was deliberately misleading?!
That's exactly what I thought after finishing the game!
MGS Venom. V has come to. V != 5
Net_Wrecker
Member
This is how i felt about the game as a whole, really. The biggest case of "Great mechanics but I'M SO BORED" I've personally ever experienced. 15 hours in, I was already beyond disappointed at how the story was progressing and being presented, but even on the scenario design/locations/boss encounter side of it I was just completely unimpressed. Let's not even talk about Mother Base jesus christ
Metal Gear Solid stops at 3 in my mind. I'm ok with that moving forward.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Not sure what you mean? There are tons of games to compare it with. It is an action game with an emphasis on stealth and shooting. We've had hundreds of games like that. Despite MGSV being in a crowded market, many consider it a masterpiece in gameplay. Heck, many have said it was almost the greatest game of all time, but various flaws like the story and the structure of chapter 2 weigh it down.
JudgeFlips
Banned
xviper
Member
exactly, the cutscenes are random and sometimes don't add something valuable to the story
no it's not 8-9 Hours, MGS 4 without the codec, is 8 hours of cutscenes for a 16 hours game
MGS V cutscenes without the tapes are around 4 hours for a 50 hours game
sotojuan
Member
After some thinking, I actually don't think MGSV had great gameplay. Great controls and mechanics? Sure. But this is a stealth game right? Then why is it open world? It's way too easy to just do a 180 and run away from command posts or general area while shooting, getting on your horse, and losing the enemies.
Compare that to MGS2 - clearing rooms on high difficulties was (at least for me) brutal and required creativity. There was no easy way out.
Compare that to MGS2 - clearing rooms on high difficulties was (at least for me) brutal and required creativity. There was no easy way out.
Novel Mike
Member
I mean a open world stealth game, specifically in this generation.
The One Who Knocks
Member
I'm playing through it for the first time and even being aware the game was incomplete prior to playing it, I'm just really not enjoying it. I'm at 90% completion right now, very close to the end, and it just feels very lacking overall.
While the game controls very fluidly, that's really it as far as my compliments for it go. You've a lot of freedom, but there's really not much variation in the missions to accommodate this. The missions are incredibly repetitive and largely forgettable (especially the side operations) except for a very select few. The fact that playing missions at a higher difficulty or with different starting options (obviously you can manually do that yourself, but just making it an option isn't too much to ask when it's already there) is limited to a select few (and that playing them is required) is silly. The open world is very bland and traversing it gets very repetitive, very quickly, and traversing it is more of a significant annoyance than a genuinely enjoyable part of the game; this isn't very good when a significant amount of hours are simply spent going to and from various points on the map.
Maybe if I'd played the main missions on their own and largely ignored the side operations (instead of employing a very consistent strategy of "complete a main mission, complete all the new side operations, complete the next main mission, etc.") it'd seem less flawed just by nature of not doing as much in the game, but I don't think that should be required. I don't think 'good gameplay' is apt, as while the mechanics are fun and the controls sublime, there's nothing interesting to do with them thanks to bland missions, an open world which is lacking, and few interesting locales. In comparison to the more puzzle-like gameplay of the MGS1 to MGS3, or even Peace Walker, it's simply not as fun or nearly as tight.
While the game controls very fluidly, that's really it as far as my compliments for it go. You've a lot of freedom, but there's really not much variation in the missions to accommodate this. The missions are incredibly repetitive and largely forgettable (especially the side operations) except for a very select few. The fact that playing missions at a higher difficulty or with different starting options (obviously you can manually do that yourself, but just making it an option isn't too much to ask when it's already there) is limited to a select few (and that playing them is required) is silly. The open world is very bland and traversing it gets very repetitive, very quickly, and traversing it is more of a significant annoyance than a genuinely enjoyable part of the game; this isn't very good when a significant amount of hours are simply spent going to and from various points on the map.
Maybe if I'd played the main missions on their own and largely ignored the side operations (instead of employing a very consistent strategy of "complete a main mission, complete all the new side operations, complete the next main mission, etc.") it'd seem less flawed just by nature of not doing as much in the game, but I don't think that should be required. I don't think 'good gameplay' is apt, as while the mechanics are fun and the controls sublime, there's nothing interesting to do with them thanks to bland missions, an open world which is lacking, and few interesting locales. In comparison to the more puzzle-like gameplay of the MGS1 to MGS3, or even Peace Walker, it's simply not as fun or nearly as tight.
Its one of the greatest and saddest games i have played. With more time it could probably be the best in the franchise. Gameplay feels smooth as fuck.
But the thing that bothered me the most was mute Snake. I mean why get Sutherland if he only has like two pages of dialogue in the game.
But the thing that bothered me the most was mute Snake. I mean why get Sutherland if he only has like two pages of dialogue in the game.
Dr. Carroll
Banned
Kojima is a huge Mad Max fan, and of all MGS V's design choices, Venom Snake demonstrates this the most comprehensively. That Venom barely speaks was driven entirely by the fact Kojima wanted him to be more like Max. If you look at the Mad Max series, they're quite plot-light, and so MGS V ended up similarly plot-light in that it is extended gameplay sequences peppered with brief spurts of story.
Not to mention the fact George Miller recast Max around the same period Kojima recast Snake.
Not to mention the fact George Miller recast Max around the same period Kojima recast Snake.
The gameplay in mgs V is still phenomonal for a 3rd person shooter and most people who say otherwise today thought so too when the game came out. The story blew but this is easily one of the best 3rd person shooters ever made in terms of gameplay.
Also Kojima somewhat delivered on that missing link horseshit. There were two big bosses all along yay! The story sucked man
Also Kojima somewhat delivered on that missing link horseshit. There were two big bosses all along yay! The story sucked man
CharminUltra
Member
Is today "Let's Remember Disappointing/Underwhelming Games Day" or something? I woke up and saw both this thread and that the Last Guardian thread.
But yeah, while I really liked the feeling of controlling Snake, everything else about MGSV left a lot to be desired. Funky mission structure, empty world, the boring characters and motherbase management, the Kojima-doesn't-really-give-a-fuck-anymore-does-he story and twist, meh villains.
But yeah, while I really liked the feeling of controlling Snake, everything else about MGSV left a lot to be desired. Funky mission structure, empty world, the boring characters and motherbase management, the Kojima-doesn't-really-give-a-fuck-anymore-does-he story and twist, meh villains.
Weltall Zero
Member
I'm kind of surprised people still get disappointed by Kojima. He's a pretty decent director when they rein him in but for the most part he's a master of writing checks his games can't cash. He hasn't made a single game in the past decade that isn't massively disappointing in some way.
Yep, that too. It's like people missed MGS2's release and never even read about it.
Yep, that too. It's like people missed MGS2's release and never even read about it.
Sändersson
Member
Im curious how people interpret the quarantine scene. Im with you pretty much 100% especially the part about big boss being venoms demon. The mirror scene in the end fits perfectly into this narrative but I dont get why the horns flash in the quarantine scene where venom basicly just euthanizes infected soldiers. How does big boss fit into this scene? Also what about the part in the cut third chapter where venom sits in the helicopter and sees the demon from the reflection.
Yep. And if it had anything of interest going on it was in the trailer.
Hugely disappointing game.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
I'm still not really seeing the difference. Far Cry 3 and 4 are technically open world stealth games as well. The "open world" term feels pretty loose when it comes to MGSV, all of the main missions take place in a closed off environment.
I never saw the demon stuff as Venom trying not to become Big Boss. I always saw the demon stuff as regret. When Venom Snake must kill his own soldiers in the Quarantine chapter, he feels like absolute shit. He sees himself as an evil man. He took in these soldiers, failed to protect them, and is now executing them without giving them any choice at all. He can't help but feel like a terrible person after that event. The same thing happens at the very end of the game. He sees himself as a demon in his decision to follow Big Boss. He probably did a bunch of stuff that he regrets under Big Boss's orders. Instead of building a better future, he feels that he did the opposite.Sändersson;244840305 said:
This also fits with the demon point system in the game. If you constantly murder people or build a nuke. Venom will be turn into "demon snake" and will permanently have a giant horn and be coated in blood. The character of Venom Snake sees himself as an evil man for the actions he commits, despite the fact that it was all in the player's hands. That's just my interpretation of the demon stuff. I don't see it as the game passing judgement and saying "this character is evil" or something. It's more to do with the internal struggle happening within Venom Snake's mind.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
That's the issue. The open world is thoroughly bland, and rather than the deliberately-designed forts and towns that Far Cry 3/4 and jeez, even ASSASSIN'S CREED has at times, the outposts feel like a random smattering of tents and sandbags. There is nothing visually interesting about them, and little point to doing anything but sticking to the perimeter and crawling around them. And yet, the game relies on them for around 3/4 of its missions. The best parts about stealth games, to me, are traversal and finding clever routes. MGSV technically gives you 360 degree approach, but most of the approaches are equally bland or simply inefficient. The only ones that defy this are, unsurprisingly, the areas that are actually designed around specific missions (Mfinda Oilfield, Afghanistan Base Camp, OKB Zero) and so have a variety of routes that will make the mission play out differently. But those make up the clear minority of the game's content, so you're stuck crawling around the same bland open world filler waiting for some guy to wander off so you can fulton him.
Napalm_Frank
Member
You feel it too, don't you?
At least McDonald's Miller is insanely quotable even tho he didn't have that many lines in GZ+PP. Minus tapes I suppose.
At least McDonald's Miller is insanely quotable even tho he didn't have that many lines in GZ+PP. Minus tapes I suppose.
BarringGaffner
Member
It's the best MGS game and plays incredibly well. I don't care about the bad storyline though.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
The secret war between McDonald's Miller and Hamburglar rages on.
"You've been in line for quite some time. Yes, yes, I know. You would like to know how long.
I'm afraid it's been 9 minutes."
Black Duke
Neo Member
I mean...Kojima somehow managed to make the player
.
One of my favorite 4th wall breaking moment in a mgs ever.
the REAL Big Boss
One of my favorite 4th wall breaking moment in a mgs ever.
"Nine years ago, I thought everything had been taken from me. But now, I really have lost it all. No meat, and we're even out of pickles."