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[Jangowuzhere]

Well, I preface this clarifying that we probably agree on most of the story. I tend to rather borderline love MGS V and I actually think Skull Face and his weird language machinations are a bit brilliant in terms of setting the stage for the rest of the series. So, regardless of Chapter 2, I was satisfied by Chapter 1.

But when such a main part of Chapter 1 is the parasite and the metal gear, and then Eli steals both and just disappears, I would be hard pressed to accept those as "small parts." They're arguably the biggest part of why Diamond Dogs truly needs to stop Skull Face

I'd say that's a pretty massive thing to even bother to introduce that way but then leave 'concluded' in such a sudden scene with seemingly unphased character, behaviour inconsistent with Chapter 1 -- especially when unfinished game assets point to that not being the intended conclusion and then being disposed by Venom.

Granted, I think MGS V stands alone as GZ + TPP Chapter 1. I think Chapter 2 can work in a Peace Walker Chapter 5/epilogue sense rather than another equal chapter. Were MGS V just GZ and Chapter 1, I'd feel satisfied in its conclusion.

But given the importance of the last parasite vial and metal gear, I'd still have to accept any argument that says those are pretty massive things to introduce so suddenly during an epilogue and not pursue beyond that.

Right, it is a little odd for them to be teased and not properly followed up on.

I guess it just doesn't really bother me...because that stuff doesn't matter. We know that Liquid Snake doesn't have the language parasites or Sally by MGS1. We can just assume that Diamond Dogs or some other forces stopped them. Yes, it would be nice to see that stuff, but when we can connect the series dots so easily, it's hard for me to get pissed in not seeing those events.

Also, MGSV unfairly has the series stigma as "the final Metal Gear game." Everyone came into MGSV thinking it was going to the final send off to this series once and for all. But...I don't think the game was ever intended to be that. Kojima and his team developed this game with the idea that they would come back to Metal Gear eventually. The fallout between KojiPro and Konami gave everyone this idea that MGSV had to be the final piece in the long going story.

The Eli and the parasite stuff could have also be seen as a teaser for MGS6. That's essentially what MGS2 did with Liquid Ocelot and Metal Gear RAY at that game's ending. The chapter 51 stuff likely would have never been shown to the public if Konami didn't go bananas and burn their whole gaming division to the ground.

 

[Lashley]

Big Boss is a meme

Doesn't matter whether you were "really" him or not



Eh. It was pretty much shown that he was turning his back on any institutions.

But yeah, it's only really in PW that we see him turn his back so hard, like an ultimate edgelord, that he basically becomes a terrorist.

I know it shows him turn his back on the government, but did it really show him turning evil?

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

Maybe someone can explain this to me in here, but what was even the point of XOF destroying MSF?

I took a wikidive on Skull Face and I still don't understand his motivation for wanting to destroy MSF or killing Big Boss back in GZ.

 

[Foffy]

Maybe someone can explain this to me in here, but what was even the point of XOF destroying MSF?

I took a wikidive on Skull Face and I still don't understand his motivation for wanting to destroy MSF or killing Big Boss back in GZ.

Revenge.

Punishment to Zero by attacking people associated with him, I guess...?

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

Revenge.

Punishment to Zero by attacking people associated with him, I guess...?

If this is all it really is, then I was right to be disappointed.

Also, MGSV unfairly has the series stigma as "the final Metal Gear game." Everyone came into MGSV thinking it was going to the final send off to this series once and for all. But...I don't think the game was ever intended to be that. Kojima and his team developed this game with the idea that they would come back to Metal Gear eventually. The fallout between KojiPro and Konami gave everyone this idea that MGSV had to be the final piece in the long going story.

The Eli and the parasite stuff could have also be seen as a teaser for MGS6. That's essentially what MGS2 did with Liquid Ocelot and Metal Gear RAY at that game's ending. The chapter 51 stuff likely would have never been shown to the public if Konami didn't go bananas and burn their whole gaming division to the ground.

If Kojima didn't realize he had burned out on all his good will with Konami and still left such a massive deliberate hook for a sequel, then he was a goddamn fool and deserves all the shit he gets for not properly finishing the game. The writing was on the wall ever since GZ was released all by itself.

 

[KOMANI]

Can't believe Konami patched the game yesterday, allowing Ocelot to be playable at mother base lol. Maybe Square noticed and are working to make Aranea playable in FFXV!

Hope this is a sign they are willing to go back and do more of the Fox engine. Especially a remake for MGS3.

Makes me really want to go back and play V again.

Maybe there's a misconception or it's my mistake but Ocelot is only playable on fobs. And it's an update coming in August. Where are you guys getting that he's playable in single player?
And again, the cries for mgs3 to be remade in the fox engine. Enough. Asking for a mgs4 remaster, I understand. You can't play that game on anything but a PS3. But mgs3 was made for the PS2 TWICE. Then released in a collection for multiple consoles, with one of the consoles not supporting analog/pressure sensitive buttons. It's Konami's job to make sure that every generation of people get to experience mgs3, The worst selling metal gear solid? They allowed the remake of mgs1 to happen with polarizing results. Leave mgs3 where it is (as a game).

 

[Jangowuzhere]

If Kojima didn't realize he had burned out on all his good will with Konami and still left such a massive deliberate hook for a sequel, then he was a goddamn fool and deserves all the shit he gets for not properly finishing the game. The writing was on the wall ever since GZ was released all by itself.

Lol wut?

Are you just completely ignorant or something? Konami began the process of trashing their gaming division when a gambling legalization bill was passed in 2014. It had nothing to do with Kojima burning his goodwill with Konami, his team and the PES games were the only ones actually making them money on the console gaming front. Sorry, Kojima and his team didn't have physic vision. I don't see how they could have possibly forseen this turn of events happening when they started engine and MGSV development in 2010.

 

[NotLiquid]

Quite frankly I wish they would've just committed to the idea of turning Big Boss into an irredeemable monster. The trailers were really framing this as his point of no return. Kojima was talking up a lot how Breaking Bad was his favorite series and if the only excuse to continue the "Big Boss Saga" (which I still maintain had no reason to go on after MGS3) was to systematically break him down Walter White style, I was ready to hop onto the despair train. But no, all of it was in service of some vain attempt to deify the Big Boss name and "thank the player", even though in the grand scheme of things the only impact the plot has is explaining why some pixels in an MSX game "survived" an encounter that never needed explaining and could've just been chalked up to willing suspension of disbelief.

Yeah, Big Boss is a piece of shit when you dig deeper but that's only really something players have to infer and doesn't even come close to closing the loop. Why do I collect "Hero Points" as someone ostensibly considered a franchise villain? It feels like Kojima got too attached to the Big Boss name and wanted to have his cake and eat it. Why is Ocelot more collected than Kaz even though the former has always been established as a sociopath while the latter is a "business first" kind of guy? There was a good opportunity to have Kaz be a dissenting voice from the inside that could create some much needed drama and turbulence to highlight the path Big Boss is on. Ocelot could have represented the destructive path Big Boss is on while Kaz could have represented the remaining humanity Big Boss had left, like a warring dichotomy, two people constantly trying to get Big Boss' head straight - one for nefarious purposes and the other for good. Instead he's barely given an arc, the reason for his turn is treated as a last minute loose end and it makes him look petty more than anything. "Turns out I spent these last couple of months with not-Big Boss because Big Boss had to go into hiding and that makes me really mad", that's the best you could come up with even though you had all this material to pull from?

The result is you can't really point out how reprehensible Big Boss and Diamond Dogs are in the grand scheme of things because the only character who actually highlights the fact is rewritten to be almost as much of an irredeemable fuckhead - like no really, what the fuck were they thinking with Huey? I feel dirty that I nodded my head in agreement half the time in response to his arguments that Diamond Dogs were a bunch of crooks. I couldn't agree more with him, I was hoping it would be the start of the spark that divides the entire group, and yet the game is like "haha, I was almost forced to admit you had a point but then I noticed you killed your wife because you wanted to turn your kid into a war machine guinea pig, tough luck pal".

Worse yet, the way they retconed him makes Otacon's backstory lack impact in MGS2. The pathos of the Emmerich family is rooted entirely on remorse in the wake of factors that are mostly (but not entirely) completely out of their control; having their naivety exploited and being forced into a bad situation after another, and knowing that Huey allegedly killed his wife and wanted to turn Otacon into a pilot for a walking manifestation of his delusions of grandeur makes it impossible to sympathize with the weight of his suicide, and the meaning it carries for Hal. MGSV leaves Huey off on the note that "he's gonna get what's coming to him!" which is hilariously tone deaf.

The way they treat this entire thing lacks a shocking amount of awareness - you go from Peace Walker, where no one had qualms employing child soldiers and building nukes, to a game which, despite having a more mature rating that could highlight the horrors of said elements, decides these are suddenly bad things - and the lazy excuse is "nah it's not actually Big Boss as protagonist so it's okay", even though Kaz is the one who basically runs the ship in MGSV despite being present for all of the same business in Peace Walker. Again - a big way to kind of waste his potential in the story.

I guess most criticisms at the game's story can be summed up with "but it fits into the Phantom Pain theme". Well, bravo I guess but the entire game's presentation doesn't permit that to happen in a way that feels like it was intentional, and intentionally unsatisfying storytelling does not necessarily make for good storytelling. MGS2 had a lot of these intentionally contradicting elements, gaps in storytelling, player analogies and more, but that game has aged a lot better in time and actually feels like a focused effort because it is meticulously made around it's twist. In contrast, the Phantom Pain theme in MGSV feels like an excuse because nothing makes it's themes readily apparent or prepares the player for it. You can basically anticipate the "big conceit" of the game immediately from the very first chapter in a painfully obvious way.

It's funny that a game which attempts at making the player be the "real" Big Boss and thanking them for their efforts just made me annoyed. This game made me annoyed of Big Boss. Makes me thankful that Solid Snake was only really playable in one game and that Old Snake from MGS4 is a tired, weary and walking self-conscious metaphor for how drawn out this nonsense has become

 

[RRockman]

SPOILERS FOR THE ENDING OF MGSV FOLLOW
DON'T BLAME ME IF YOU CLICK IT AND HAVE IT RUINED FOR YOU YOU MORON

Ahem.

Now that that's out of the way....

Spoiler

So I have some pretty serious problems with the narrative in The Phantom Pain, but the way Big Boss's fall is handled is actually brilliant.

So one of the big themes, if not THE theme, of MGS is the conflict between free will and genetic and environmental influences. Liquid's dominant and recessive genes thing, all the talk about memes in MGS2 and Rising, Ect.

The introduction of Venom and how his story ties into Big Boss's not only serves to fit MGSV into the same "canon" as the rest of the series, but also to hold BB accountable for his actions in this game and every other game in the series.

Venom's existence is, in of itself, a crime against humanity. Big Boss takes one of his most loyal men/women(!), and essentially steals their life. He takes their body, their name, their thoughts and memories, and replaces them with his own. Why? So he can use Venom as a decoy to keep his enemies off his back while he recovers from his injuries in Ground Zeros.

Big Boss condemns someone to a fate arguable worse than death because he is coward.

As if that wasn't enough, the major decisions Venom makes throughout the game echo choices that Big Boss has made or will make. For example, contrast Venom's desire to rescue the child soldiers and give them a life free from war with Big Boss's desire to use them as weapons in MGS2. Venom has (or thinks he has) the same history as Big Boss, the same influences, but he chooses differently regardless.

The same can be said for other parts of the story(Venom's care for his men vs. BB's disregard for them, to name one), and they all emphasize that Big Boss, and Big Boss alone, is responsible for his actions; his fall isn't an inevitable consequence of his past.

So, yeah. Props to anyone who actually read this rambling.

Note: I have not played MGSV.

EDIT: well shit swearing-circle, congrats on not taking ten years to say what I was trying to say

I definitely agree.

Spoiler

Venom's very existence shows just how much of a horrible person Big Boss extremely effectively imo. He had a heart while Big Boss' had a crevasse. He didn't even let Kaz in on it or even bothered to rescue him himself. The action spoke volumes about his character.

I try to get mad at this game story wise but then I think of the gameplay and "chemical burger" and all is forgiven.

Like I just can't hate it. MGS4 on the other hand...

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

It's easily one of the best games of the generation. Just don't get invested in the story.

It's not. It has good mechanics, tight controls and awesome 60FPS graphics. That's it.

It is incredibly repetitive and has one of the most barren and empty modern open worlds. It has only one good boss fight in the whole game and the whole motherbase system is worse than in Peace Walker. Peace Walker is far and away the better Metal Gear Solid 5.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I think it highlights a difference between Venom and BB, is the point. I don't think Venom would go straight for the throat, regardless of what had been done to him or his men by his target.

Case in point: Huey.

He literally sets out with all of DD at the end of chapter one with the express purpose of killing Skullface. The only reason he doesn't shoot the guy is cause he's outnumbered and Ocelot says to go along with whatever he's up to.

At the end of PW, BB accepts his role as a 'demon'. At the start of GZ, an assassination mission is just business as usual.

But he's already done that sort of stuff in the past. He wasn't killing those soldiers in MGS3 solely as a form of self defense and had experience with military conflicts before.

Quite frankly I wish they would've just committed to the idea of turning Big Boss into an irredeemable monster. The trailers were really framing this as his point of no return. Kojima was talking up a lot how Breaking Bad was his favorite series and if the only excuse to continue the "Big Boss Saga" (which I still maintain had no reason to go on after MGS3) was to systematically break him down Walter White style, I was ready to hop onto the despair train. But no, all of it was in service of some vain attempt to deify the Big Boss name and "thank the player", even though in the grand scheme of things the only impact the plot has is explaining why some pixels in an MSX game "survived" an encounter that never needed explaining and could've just been chalked up to willing suspension of disbelief.

Yeah, Big Boss is a piece of shit when you dig deeper but that's only really something players have to infer and doesn't even come close to closing the loop. Why do I collect "Hero Points" as someone ostensibly considered a franchise villain? It feels like Kojima got too attached to the Big Boss name and wanted to have his cake and eat it. Why is Ocelot more collected than Kaz even though the former has always been established as a sociopath while the latter is a "business first" kind of guy? There was a good opportunity to have Kaz be a dissenting voice from the inside that could create some much needed drama and turbulence to highlight the path Big Boss is on. Ocelot could have represented the destructive path Big Boss is on while Kaz could have represented the remaining humanity Big Boss had left, like a warring dichotomy, two people constantly trying to get Big Boss' head straight - one for nefarious purposes and the other for good. Instead he's barely given an arc, the reason for his turn is treated as a last minute loose end and it makes him look petty more than anything. "Turns out I spent these last couple of months with not-Big Boss because Big Boss had to go into hiding and that makes me really mad", that's the best you could come up with even though you had all this material to pull from?

The result is you can't really point out how reprehensible Big Boss and Diamond Dogs are in the grand scheme of things because the only character who actually highlights the fact is rewritten to be almost as much of an irredeemable fuckhead - like no really, what the fuck were they thinking with Huey? I feel dirty that I nodded my head in agreement half the time in response to his arguments that Diamond Dogs were a bunch of crooks. I couldn't agree more with him, I was hoping it would be the start of the spark that divides the entire group, and yet the game is like "haha, I was almost forced to admit you had a point but then I noticed you killed your wife because you wanted to turn your kid into a war machine guinea pig, tough luck pal".

Worse yet, the way they retconed him makes Otacon's backstory lack impact in MGS2. The pathos of the Emmerich family is rooted entirely on remorse in the wake of factors that are mostly (but not entirely) completely out of their control; having their naivety exploited and being forced into a bad situation after another, and knowing that Huey allegedly killed his wife and wanted to turn Otacon into a pilot for a walking manifestation of his delusions of grandeur makes it impossible to sympathize with the weight of his suicide, and the meaning it carries for Hal. MGSV leaves Huey off on the note that "he's gonna get what's coming to him!" which is hilariously tone deaf.

The way they treat this entire thing lacks a shocking amount of awareness - you go from Peace Walker, where no one had qualms employing child soldiers and building nukes, to a game which, despite having a more mature rating that could highlight the horrors of said elements, decides these are suddenly bad things - and the lazy excuse is "nah it's not actually Big Boss as protagonist so it's okay", even though Kaz is the one who basically runs the ship in MGSV despite being present for all of the same business in Peace Walker. Again - a big way to kind of waste his potential in the story.

I guess most criticisms at the game's story can be summed up with "but it fits into the Phantom Pain theme". Well, bravo I guess but the entire game's presentation doesn't permit that to happen in a way that feels like it was intentional, and intentionally unsatisfying storytelling does not necessarily make for good storytelling. MGS2 had a lot of these intentionally contradicting elements, gaps in storytelling, player analogies and more, but that game has aged a lot better in time and actually feels like a focused effort because it is meticulously made around it's twist. In contrast, the Phantom Pain theme in MGSV feels like an excuse because nothing makes it's themes readily apparent or prepares the player for it. You can basically anticipate the "big conceit" of the game immediately from the very first chapter in a painfully obvious way.

It's funny that a game which attempts at making the player be the "real" Big Boss and thanking them for their efforts just made me annoyed. This game made me annoyed of Big Boss. Makes me thankful that Solid Snake was only really playable in one game and that Old Snake from MGS4 is a tired, weary and walking self-conscious metaphor for how drawn out this nonsense has become

Awh man all of this.

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

TRUTH

Beautiful.

Konami began the process of trashing their gaming division when a gambling legalization bill was passed in 2014. It had nothing to do with Kojima burning his goodwill with Konami, his team and the PES games were the only ones actually making them money on the console gaming front. Sorry, Kojima and his team didn't have physic vision. I don't see how they could have possibly forseen this turn of events happening when they started engine and MGSV development in 2010.

Let me walk back a little bit because I do think I was little too hard, if anything time passing makes me more bitter about the game. Konami is still the villain in all this, especially with how vindictive they've been acting towards their ex-employees.

That said, their plans for the Kingdom of Flies shit was ludicrous, everything we know about that mission makes it seems it would have been bigger in scope than anything else in the game, what with the entire new area, the XOF soldiers and the DD soldiers helping you bring down Sahelanthropus. How much more time would they have needed to finish this single mission?

There are three possibilities here, they either planned to have the mission in the base game, to have it as DLC, or to make it in a sequel.

If they planned to have it in the base game, but couldn't, then the game's story was left incomplete, pretty simple.

If they planned to have it as DLC, maybe they banked on the possibility that Konami would keep them at least until the DLC was out, doesn't really matter in the end, the game's story was still left incomplete and there was no DLC to speak of.

If what we saw for the Kingdom of Flies was never what was really intended, and Eli taking off with Sahelanthropus was meant as a sequel hook for a future MGS6, then they still left those hooks in when it was entirely obvious that they would not be able to work on MGS6, let alone on Konami.

It would have been way better for everyone if they had just made it so Sahelanthropus was completely destroyed, together with the last strain of the parasite. Like you said it yourself, the signs were there in 2014, they had enough time to do this.

At least it wouldn't have left us hanging.

Those are the three "in good faith" possibilities, the other one, which I see some people defend and it PISSES me off to no end is "don't you get it man? oh it was all on purpose to make make you feel a Phantom Pain for what was supposed to be there but isn't".

Well, guess what, making an unsatisfying ending on purpose is still making a goddamn unsatisfying ending, and for a series that I've been following for the better part of my life, it feels like the game was flipping me off for even caring.

 

[Screaming Meat]

He literally sets out with all of DD at the end of chapter one with the express purpose of killing Skullface. The only reason he doesn't shoot the guy is cause he's outnumbered and Ocelot says to go along with whatever he's up to.

The reason he doesn't shoot him is he's told to interrogate him first.

Then, when he has the opportunity to kill him at the end, Kaz has to help (Venom actually can't kill him. If you pull the trigger he shoots, has a freaky flashback, and it resets). Even then, they still don't kill him, they go the 'eye for an eye' route. Huey does him in.

But he's already done that sort of stuff in the past. He wasn't killing those soldiers in MGS3 solely as a form of self defense and had experience with military conflicts before.

Which soldiers does BB canonically kill in MGS3 other than The Boss? Genuine question, I don't remember!

MGS3 is essentially BB's coming of age story and he has a lot of doubts about killing The Boss, not just from a difficulty perspective. When he has to deal with another friend who betrayed him, he has no such doubts. Venom, when faced with a similar situation (Huey), goes the complete opposite way.

There are differences, even if you don't want to see them or think they're too subtle or ambiguous to be meaningful.

Look, I think we're going in circles here. These back and fourths are exactly why I tend to avoid MGSV discussions these days (I know I started this... I was weak!). I end up making long and boring posts that I either don't write very well or get misread, and I don't have the energy to stand my ground much further than this.

Can we agree to disagree and leave it at that?

 

[Adam_Vania]

nope. what did they promise? people complain that it did not deliver but won't say what it didn't deliver.

he delivered the essential Metal Gear experience. there is nothing missing here. there is a lack of polish a maybe a handful of missing missions and cutscenes. that's it. we get resolutions to all the stories. it wrapped up all the storylines from all the games. Kojima was tasked with the impossible: tell the origin story of a villain who has had his origin story already told in a console title. what he did was make a connecting link that connected the final console prequel MGS3 to the first console Metal Gear MGS. he connected the two fan favorites together with MGSV. this game is the missing link that it promised to be. it connects the prequel Big Boss games to the future Solid Snake games. it focuses on the MGS3 bosses and PTSD from that and the Peace Walker incident (in effect Big Boss dealing w his own fall to villainry) and provides origin stories for the MGS major figures, even with the "missing ending".

the game has 5 endings! would people be satisfied with a 6th?

it acts as a do-over of MGS3 for Big Boss to write his own future and try not to be the bad guy. to not kill The Boss/Quiet. the tragedy is that he is fated to be, anyways, and even if you play this whole game non-lethally (Venom is a vegetarian in MGSV it is implied) you are doomed cos it is in your genes. cos you are a clone. hey, just like every other game. what is missing? it jump-starts potentially the next Kojima-less MGS series, if they decide to pick it back up. it is presenting the center of the Metal Gear series, the midway point between MGS3 and MGS. Quiet, is the halfway point of The Boss/The End and Sniper Wolf. this is the shifting of Kaz from friend of Big Boss to enemy in MGS and Psycho Mantis's origins as a Russian military extra-sensory experiment. most of the character work in MGSV is connecting MGS3 and MGS. the main villains of MGS, Liquid and Psycho Mantis and their Metal Gear, are all introduced in MGSV.

it was always going to be unfinished. it is not a valid complaint anymore. we knew it when Ground Zeroes happened. what was he supposed to do, not make the game? he went on anyways, made it about that. that is why he did the intro first, why he baked it into Ground Zeroes. it is a game about the missing limbs. that Phantom Pain. he addressed it head on. literalized it through Ground Zeroes and the ensuing trauma that Venom deals with in every way including fantasizing about what if things had gone the other way. Skull Face is killed, Venom's lust for power (keeping the parasite & Huey's Metal Gear research going) ultimately did him in, turning everyone against him, making him the villain, and all of the new characters introduced into the timeline as a result of MGSV being made disappear or go off to get ready for MGS. the whole disappearing Psycho Mantis and Liquid Snake are literally connecting MGSV to MGS. again, MGSV connects MGS 3 to MG/MGS. MGSV literally explains everything and connects the series into an infinite loop while also allowing Big Boss a chance to ride off into the sunset in a classic Hollywood style ending rather than getting ready to have his butt kicked by his clone.

 

[Alienous]

I find it hard to see Big Boss' treatment of Venom Snake as anything villainous.

As I recall it the whole Venom Snake plan started before Big Boss woke up, Big Boss just goes along with it.

Then it seems to be the right choice, as despite learning about being manipulated Venom Snake decides to still carry out Big Boss' request.

So it basically just reads as Big Boss promoting a soldier.


If you want to make Big Boss a villain you only have to show the collateral damage of a revenge crusade. Leading those who follow him to become monsters. Basically what 'Sins of the Father' implied.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

This game really doesn't present any of these things as a conflict because Venom really doesn't show any conflict at all. Venom didn't know that he was a medic. And there's really no indication that BB would've done things differently, like shooting the children in the cage, finishing off Quiet, not grieving about having to kill his own men etc. the demon point system feels straight up as unfinished as the covenants in dark souls. Plus there's the fact that he's specifically part of BB's army, who by my knowledge, is already supposed to be considered evil by GZ.

I'm arguing that Venom was subconsciously affected by his past personality. Clearly, the Paz hallucinations were included to illustrate just that. The Paz scenes are there to illustrate his remorse over a patient he failed to save.

Peace Walker already illustrates that Big Boss acts differently from Venom. Neither kills child soldiers, but PW BB employs Chico on his staff roll (even after he has clearly showed himself to be out of his depth by submitting to torture). Venom gets Sahelanthropus as a trophy, while PW builds his own Metal Gear and equips it with Hot Coldman's nuke, fished out of the water

 

[Roni]

This game made me annoyed of Big Boss. Makes me thankful that Solid Snake was only really playable in one game and that Old Snake from MGS4 is a tired, weary and walking self-conscious metaphor for how drawn out this nonsense has become

Solid Snake was playable in 5 games.

 

[Toparaman]

It's not. It has good mechanics, tight controls and awesome 60FPS graphics. That's it.

It is incredibly repetitive and has one of the most barren and empty modern open worlds. It has only one good boss fight in the whole game and the whole motherbase system is worse than in Peace Walker. Peace Walker is far and away the better Metal Gear Solid 5.

It's easy enough to not invest time into the open world and mother base. The core gameplay is excellent, and frequently emergent in nature, minimizing repetition.

I don't have any problem saying it's one of the best action games ever made. But it does require a certain level of player discipline; if you're the kind of person who just has to engage with everything a game offers, you're not going to like Phantom Pain.

 

[Adam_Vania]

I find it hard to see Big Boss' treatment of Venom Snake as anything villainous.

first of all, Venom has no say in this. like Paz, like Chico, there is no consent. who he was before GZ, his name, his face, his life, is dead. claimed by Big Boss. over-written to be a copy of Big Boss. like the bodies of poor Paz and Chico, they are altered and abused, deformed to fit the will of Big Boss.

As I recall it the whole Venom Snake plan started before Big Boss woke up, Big Boss just goes along with it.

yes in the tape where he discusses this with Zero (the main villain/mentor of the previous console entry). he thinks sacrificing the innocent people at the hospital is a great idea.

So it basically just reads as Big Boss promoting a soldier.

this is what turned Snake into the villain Big Boss in the first place. this is the end of MGS3 and it leads to him turning his back on his country because they forced him to kill a friendly solider. this is what makes him a villain. this is what he must train Venom to do, to prepare him for his role in Metal Gear 1.

as a villain Big Boss sends others to die for him. this is why the helicopter was so wrong. you had a young woman's body being used against her will for multiple bomb delivery and Venom being forced to operate on her without anesthetic. this would be traumatic and damaging experience for anyone to witness, let alone participate in. Chico is being psycholigically and physically tortured as well in order to justify Big Boss's grand vision. this is what Big Boss expects of his soliders.

Venom earns the title Big Boss at the beginning of the game, which just turns out to be the end of the game as well. this is him being initiated into villainry. MGSV exists to set up Metal Gear 1. the game where Big Boss turns on his own son and tries to kill him. by MGSV Big Boss was already a villain. now we see him do one better - turn a hero into a villain. we see him turn himself into a villain.

 

[AgentLampshade]

I wish Solidus got a mention. Just...just a mention. A namedrop, an allusion, a ghost of a hint that he exists.

 

[SRG01]

I find it hard to see Big Boss' treatment of Venom Snake as anything villainous.

As I recall it the whole Venom Snake plan started before Big Boss woke up, Big Boss just goes along with it.

Then it seems to be the right choice, as despite learning about being manipulated Venom Snake decides to still carry out Big Boss' request.

So it basically just reads as Big Boss promoting a soldier.


If you want to make Big Boss a villain you only have to show the collateral damage of a revenge crusade. Leading those who follow him to become monsters. Basically what 'Sins of the Father' implied.

No, it was shortly after they got hit by the helicopter. Big Boss wakes up, notices Venom, and inquires about him. Off-screen, Venom is then altered to look like BB then Phantom Pain starts.

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

No, it was shortly after they got hit by the helicopter. Big Boss wakes up, notices Venom, and inquires about him. Off-screen, Venom is then altered to look like BB then Phantom Pain starts.

Are you talking about the hospital scene with the "What about him?"-stinger? Because the one who said that was Miller to a doctor after he resuscitated Big Boss into his coma, who only woke up 9 years later.

1-first of all, Venom has no say in this. like Paz, like Chico, there is no consent. who he was before GZ, his name, his face, his life, is dead. claimed by Big Boss. over-written to be a copy of Big Boss. like the bodies of poor Paz and Chico, they are altered and abused, deformed to fit the will of Big Boss.

2-as a villain Big Boss sends others to die for him. 3-this is why the helicopter was so wrong. you had a young woman's body being used against her will for multiple bomb delivery and Venom being forced to operate on her without anesthetic. this would be traumatic and damaging experience for anyone to witness, let alone participate in. Chico is being psycholigically and physically tortured as well in order to justify Big Boss's grand vision. this is what Big Boss expects of his soliders.

1- Big Boss had no say in this either, given he was in a coma. For 9 years. And following your logic would mean that The Boss was actually the most awful villain in this universe, given that practically everyone thought they were honoring her will.

2- Is very CO in existence a villain to you then? Big Boss takes to the field himself more often than not, with his soldiers, who follow him willingly, he didn't force anyone to join him.

3- It wasn't Big Boss that put those bombs inside Paz, and there was no time to anesthetize her, they didn't know how long the bomb even had until it exploded, waiting for the painkillers to work would have put everyone's lives in jeopardy.

And yeah, Chico might be disturbed after witnessing the helicopter operation, blame Skull Face, who tortured him and Paz and then put those bombs in there. What was Big Boss even supposed to do here? Tell Chico to jump off the helicopter? Delay the operation and risk the bomb exploding? He also needed another pair of hands to hold her down. If Big Boss was so villainous, he would have tossed her out.

 

[gafneo]

When I heard sins of the farther for the first time, I thought it was part of the plot. I thought Big Boss was being influenced by evil to the point where he betrays his children. I thought he went insane because the trailer made it look like the hero we knew would slaughter children in a cage. Nope, he was hero throughout & we only get an audio of him talking smack about his sons because his ultimate responsibility is protecting the country & not parenting. Let the battlefield adopt my offspring.

 

[kunonabi]

When I heard sins of the farther for the first time, I thought it was part of the plot. I thought Big Boss was being influenced by evil to the point where he betrays his children. I thought he went insane because the trailer made it look like the hero we knew would slaughter children in a cage. Nope, he was hero throughout & we only get an audio of him talking smack about his sons because his ultimate responsibility is protecting the country & not parenting. Let the battlefield adopt my offspring.

Except there is nothing heroic about anything Big Boss does in MGSV.

 

[AuthenticM]

Quite frankly I wish they would've just committed to the idea of turning Big Boss into an irredeemable monster. The trailers were really framing this as his point of no return. Kojima was talking up a lot how Breaking Bad was his favorite series and if the only excuse to continue the "Big Boss Saga" (which I still maintain had no reason to go on after MGS3) was to systematically break him down Walter White style, I was ready to hop onto the despair train. But no, all of it was in service of some vain attempt to deify the Big Boss name and "thank the player", even though in the grand scheme of things the only impact the plot has is explaining why some pixels in an MSX game "survived" an encounter that never needed explaining and could've just been chalked up to willing suspension of disbelief.

Yeah, Big Boss is a piece of shit when you dig deeper but that's only really something players have to infer and doesn't even come close to closing the loop. Why do I collect "Hero Points" as someone ostensibly considered a franchise villain? It feels like Kojima got too attached to the Big Boss name and wanted to have his cake and eat it. Why is Ocelot more collected than Kaz even though the former has always been established as a sociopath while the latter is a "business first" kind of guy? There was a good opportunity to have Kaz be a dissenting voice from the inside that could create some much needed drama and turbulence to highlight the path Big Boss is on. Ocelot could have represented the destructive path Big Boss is on while Kaz could have represented the remaining humanity Big Boss had left, like a warring dichotomy, two people constantly trying to get Big Boss' head straight - one for nefarious purposes and the other for good. Instead he's barely given an arc, the reason for his turn is treated as a last minute loose end and it makes him look petty more than anything. "Turns out I spent these last couple of months with not-Big Boss because Big Boss had to go into hiding and that makes me really mad", that's the best you could come up with even though you had all this material to pull from?

The result is you can't really point out how reprehensible Big Boss and Diamond Dogs are in the grand scheme of things because the only character who actually highlights the fact is rewritten to be almost as much of an irredeemable fuckhead - like no really, what the fuck were they thinking with Huey? I feel dirty that I nodded my head in agreement half the time in response to his arguments that Diamond Dogs were a bunch of crooks. I couldn't agree more with him, I was hoping it would be the start of the spark that divides the entire group, and yet the game is like "haha, I was almost forced to admit you had a point but then I noticed you killed your wife because you wanted to turn your kid into a war machine guinea pig, tough luck pal".

Worse yet, the way they retconed him makes Otacon's backstory lack impact in MGS2. The pathos of the Emmerich family is rooted entirely on remorse in the wake of factors that are mostly (but not entirely) completely out of their control; having their naivety exploited and being forced into a bad situation after another, and knowing that Huey allegedly killed his wife and wanted to turn Otacon into a pilot for a walking manifestation of his delusions of grandeur makes it impossible to sympathize with the weight of his suicide, and the meaning it carries for Hal. MGSV leaves Huey off on the note that "he's gonna get what's coming to him!" which is hilariously tone deaf.

The way they treat this entire thing lacks a shocking amount of awareness - you go from Peace Walker, where no one had qualms employing child soldiers and building nukes, to a game which, despite having a more mature rating that could highlight the horrors of said elements, decides these are suddenly bad things - and the lazy excuse is "nah it's not actually Big Boss as protagonist so it's okay", even though Kaz is the one who basically runs the ship in MGSV despite being present for all of the same business in Peace Walker. Again - a big way to kind of waste his potential in the story.

I guess most criticisms at the game's story can be summed up with "but it fits into the Phantom Pain theme". Well, bravo I guess but the entire game's presentation doesn't permit that to happen in a way that feels like it was intentional, and intentionally unsatisfying storytelling does not necessarily make for good storytelling. MGS2 had a lot of these intentionally contradicting elements, gaps in storytelling, player analogies and more, but that game has aged a lot better in time and actually feels like a focused effort because it is meticulously made around it's twist. In contrast, the Phantom Pain theme in MGSV feels like an excuse because nothing makes it's themes readily apparent or prepares the player for it. You can basically anticipate the "big conceit" of the game immediately from the very first chapter in a painfully obvious way.

It's funny that a game which attempts at making the player be the "real" Big Boss and thanking them for their efforts just made me annoyed. This game made me annoyed of Big Boss. Makes me thankful that Solid Snake was only really playable in one game and that Old Snake from MGS4 is a tired, weary and walking self-conscious metaphor for how drawn out this nonsense has become

great post. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Ninjazombie]

Personally one of my all time most disappointing games :/

It's personally one of my all time favourite, most disappointing games.

The gameplay was spot on. The half finished nature of it, not quite.

 

[Matty77]

I'm not going to get into the game as much as try to recontexualize Big Boss for what he was. I think the disconnect people feel (not about just this one game, but the entire saga) is waiting for the villain turn but I really don't think it exsists.

Big Boss is not a mustache twirler he is a War Criminal. Go back and watch the MG2 ending (especially those who never bothered with the MSX games) and your not listening to a evil genius but a disillusioned old man who believes the only place a soldier is at home is war. Not for a nation, not for a cause, but for war itself because he is making a home for soldiers, a perpetual war.

You don't have to go farther than MGS3 to see where he is heading. Virtuous mission and Snake Eater are both clusterfuck black ops that should never have happened, led to the death of the one person he believed in (who is also the one who mentored him and turned him into a man with no reason to live but the battlefield) and all a sacrifice to save the ass of some politicians.

If your looking for any more it's just a matter of following his fall to any means necessary such as causing war orphans and making soldiers out of them. Which PW already looked at, not in depth but the whole setup for where he is at for MG2 is all already there.

BB is not any of your traditional villains but more of a real life evil, like an African Warlord.

That particular element of Metal Gear is more beast of no nation than tactical/sci-fi Anime. And maybe that's Kojima's fault for having Vampires and Psychics and magic arms literring his series for years, and everybody expecting some over the top revelation when I don't really think there is one.

 

[thequestion]

I just remember playing through the game and thinking that there would be this sequence that would be 90 minutes to 2 hours of this final fortress type level, complete with multiple cut scenes and story sequences akin to the first metal gear solid game on psx. It never came. Instead I was replaying missions and the game just sort of ended. Incredibly disappointed. And the game playing so good, just added to the dissapointment.

 

[Adam_Vania]

I just remember playing through the game and thinking that there would be this sequence that would be 90 minutes to 2 hours of this final fortress type level, complete with multiple cut scenes and story sequences akin to the first metal gear solid game on psx. It never came.

MGS has 4 hours of cutscenes. MGSV has 5 1/2 hours of cutscenes plus the cinematic aspect is directly married to the gameplay. MGSV has as many cutscenes as the other MGS games it just has hundreds of optional gameplay hours in between. if you stick to missions, you get 5 min cutscenes after every level or so. MGSV is presented in a TV-style serial episodic structure because it is meant to take place over years, perhaps right up to the Outer Heaven incident. in MGSV the cinematics look nearly identical to the gameplay for a reason - they have merged the story and gameplay.

MGSV has everything that MGS has. Kojima is basically doing a stealth greatest hits remaster here. MGSV is the origin story for the first Metal Gear but also MGS. it gives us Psycho Mantis's origin, it gives us Liquid Snake's origin story. these are the main villains of MGS. it shows us how they got together, it shows us how they got into Metal Gear tech. MGSV gives us a precursor to Sniper Wolf with Quiet. Quiet can even can earn the Sniper Wolf outfit. MGSV shows us Snake first working with Kaz and Ocelot, both questionable allies in MGS. MGSV gives us a nonlethal battles against Liquid Snake just like MGS did. MGSV gives us multiple takes on a massive Snake vs. a Metal Gear finale just like MGS. MGSV gives us that for the first ending of The Phantom Pain. MGS gives players a lot that they loved in MGS. but in super fluid 60fps HD awesomeness.

also there are final fortress type levels throughout the game. previous MGS games had level design with a handful of soldiers in claustrophobic areas, heavily relying on bactracking and pausing to listen to codecs constantly to fill up playtime. MGSV has you sneak through multiple bases the size of the entire MGS in one mission, criss-crossing terrain and coming upon outposts along the way. outposts and side ops functionally take the place of hallways with 1 or 2 guards that served as filler and skiill/epsionage flexing opportunities. there are outposts, which use the natural environment as a new kind of level design, there are normal size bases, and there are large bases like the endgame base the rad 5-part OKB Zero. there are several huge bases and there are smaller bases connected by surrounding land. this is nothing new for the series. this is how Metal Gear NES is. this is how MGS is. why are people always insisting this game is so different?

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

MGS has 4 hours of cutscenes. MGSV has 5 1/2 hours of cutscenes plus the cinematic aspect is directly married to the gameplay. MGSV has as many cutscenes as the other MGS games it just has hundreds of optional gameplay hours in between. if you stick to missions, you get 5 min cutscenes after every level or so. MGSV is presented in a TV-style serial episodic structure because it is meant to take place over years, perhaps right up to the Outer Heaven incident. in MGSV the cinematics look nearly identical to the gameplay for a reason - they have merged the story and gameplay.

MGSV has everything that MGS has. Kojima is basically doing a stealth greatest hits remaster here. MGSV is the origin story for the first Metal Gear but also MGS. it gives us Psycho Mantis's origin, it gives us Liquid Snake's origin story. these are the main villains of MGS. it shows us how they got together, it shows us how they got into Metal Gear tech. MGSV gives us a precursor to Sniper Wolf with Quiet. Quiet can even can earn the Sniper Wolf outfit. MGSV shows us Snake first working with Kaz and Ocelot, both questionable allies in MGS. MGSV gives us a nonlethal battles against Liquid Snake just like MGS did. MGSV gives us multiple takes on a massive Snake vs. a Metal Gear finale just like MGS. MGSV gives us that for the first ending of The Phantom Pain. MGS gives players a lot that they loved in MGS. but in super fluid 60fps HD awesomeness.

also there are final fortress type levels throughout the game. previous MGS games had level design with a handful of soldiers in claustrophobic areas, heavily relying on bactracking and pausing to listen to codecs constantly to fill up playtime. MGSV has you sneak through multiple bases the size of the entire MGS in one mission, criss-crossing terrain and coming upon outposts along the way. outposts and side ops functionally take the place of hallways with 1 or 2 guards that served as filler and skiill/epsionage flexing opportunities. there are outposts, which use the natural environment as a new kind of level design, there are normal size bases, and there are large bases like the endgame base the rad 5-part OKB Zero. there are several huge bases and there are smaller bases connected by surrounding land. this is nothing new for the series. this is how Metal Gear NES is. this is how MGS is. why are people always insisting this game is so different?

How about:

-There are no real rewards for exploring in the game, unlike the other games in the series. And I mean REAL rewards like WEAPONS or ITEMS or CAMOUFLAGES, not music tapes, blueprints or materials.

-Tapes are not a real substitute for codec calls, we used to have both of those things, except the tapes were in the Briefing.

-They made the main character practically mute, when one of the biggest parts in every other game in the series is the main character's take on things.

-While we're on this, ditching the estabilished voice of the main character for 16 years for a Hollywood actor, and then barely using him (David Hayter is still perfectly able to do a good Snake voice as demonstrated by the Ford commercial, if his past performances were mediocre then the blame is on his voice director).

-The barely discernible difference when going through the same places. At least back in the day when you used to backtrack you could have unlocked a few previously locked doors. This point is linked to point one.

-The unremarkable music, outside of Sins of the Father (which was used in-game in the most ill-fitted and bizarre way possible) and Quiet's Theme.

Those are some things that come immediately to my mind.

 

[Chakra_Khan]

How about:

-There are no real rewards for exploring in the game, unlike the other games in the series. And I mean REAL rewards like WEAPONS or ITEMS or CAMOUFLAGES, not music tapes, blueprints or materials.

-Tapes are not a real substitute for codec calls, we used to have both of those things, except the tapes were in the Briefing.

-They made the main character practically mute, when one of the biggest parts in every other game in the series is the main character's take on things.

-While we're on this, ditching the estabilished voice of the main character for 16 years for a Hollywood actor, and then barely using him (David Hayter is still perfectly able to do a good Snake voice as demonstrated by the Ford commercial, if his past performances were mediocre then the blame is on his voice director).

-The barely discernible difference when going through the same places. At least back in the day when you used to backtrack you could have unlocked a few previously locked doors. This point is linked to point one.

-The unremarkable music, outside of Sins of the Father (which was used in-game in the most ill-fitted and bizarre way possible) and Quiet's Theme.

Those are some things that come immediately to my mind.

Regardless of how telegraphed it may have been (What with people data mining the audio files for the Medics voice in GZ), the twist would've been seen through immediately had they cast Hayter. The decision for Kiefer was as multifaceted as Kojima's reason for Choosing Raiden as the protagonist for Sons of Liberty: He was both the antithesis of Snake as a masculine heroic figure and he was what Japanese girls ideally preferred playing as. Kiefer was both a Hollywood actor kojima had been wanting to work with AND would also serve to help hide the ruse of the twist.

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

Regardless of how telegraphed it may have been (What with people data mining the audio files for the Medics voice in GZ), the twist would've been seen through immediately had they cast Hayter. The decision for Kiefer was as multifaceted as Kojima's reason for Choosing Raiden as the protagonist for Sons of Liberty: He was both the antithesis of Snake as a masculine heroic figure and he was what Japanese girls ideally preferred playing as. Kiefer was both a Hollywood actor kojima had been wanting to work with AND would also serve to help hide the ruse of the twist.

Well yeah, but I didn't like the twist of TPP either, so all that means to me is "that thing you didn't like was because of that other thing you didn't like", and then I get sad because there was literally no silver lining for me lol.

The ruse with Raiden ended pretty fast, and even if we never got to play as Snake again, at least we saw him prominently in the story. I'm pretty sure I also wouldn't have liked if in MGS2 Raiden never took off his mask and changed codenames until after he fought Solidus, and Pliskin never showed up until before the end credits.

I actually don't need to play as Snake to be happy playing a Metal Gear game, I just didn't like the game being propped up as "see man become demons in this last game of Big Boss' saga!" and we don't ever actually see Big Boss become a "demon" because he's barely even there.

 

[Stevey]

Garbage game, Kojima has lost it, even if they had the time/resources to finish it, it would still be garbage compared to MGS/2/3.
Death Stranding will be garbage as well.

 

[Truant]

I got over the shitty story and view the game as more of a Sim/CIV/military game, and it's pretty good as one of those. My main problem is actually the stupid microtransaction stuff. It makes a lot of the research a huge chore.

 

[Coreda]

I got over the shitty story and view the game as more of a Sim/CIV/military game, and it's pretty good as one of those. My main problem is actually the stupid microtransaction stuff. It makes a lot of the research a huge chore.

Regret not paying attention to the Cheat Engine tables for this game at the time. Would have cut out the countless hours farming things and idling for research to complete—and still not being able to unlock all the offline gear due to soldier rank ceilings for non-FOB players. Thankfully after reverting to an earlier save and wanting to fast-forward progress I looked into it and now have the staff levels upgraded and weapons developed.

Another convenient feature is you can change the face of staff. Have the waifu army you've always wanted!

 

[Boney]

Haven't played it since I have no interest of going through it on PS3, but the idea you not playing Big Boss but instead some random dude that thinks he's BB is hilarious.

 

[Roni]

-There are no real rewards for exploring in the game, unlike the other games in the series. And I mean REAL rewards like WEAPONS or ITEMS or CAMOUFLAGES, not music tapes, blueprints or materials.

There's not only a difference in scope - since 'exploration' in previous MGS games meant something as little as going on a side path that took 30 seconds for you to explore and find said new weapon/item/camouflage and at most exploring a small extra section of the map that took you nowhere. In MGSV exploring an area can take you dozens of minutes to see everything. Aabe Shifap is such an example: there's a lot to sight see and it's a small section of the actual map.

There's also the explicit design decision of not forcing players to explore areas of the map to get gameplay tools.

Your definition of 'REAL rewards' is actually quite arbitrary. Blueprints and materials are essentially the components you need to make weapons, items and camouflages in MGSV. So, in a way, you're exploring to get weapons, items and camouflages faster. They're just not directly tied to that.

Finally, and perhaps the biggest reason why you're wrong: exploration is very much an incentive when in missions. I assume you're talking about free roaming when you say exploration is not rewarded. But, in fact, most areas of the map need to be explored if you want to 100% the game, because that requires doing every single side objective. And going after side objectives show you all sorts of little conversations and quirky events in remote areas of the map.

-Tapes are not a real substitute for codec calls, we used to have both of those things, except the tapes were in the Briefing.

Both feature conversations between people, yet another arbitrary complaint - not a real flaw of the game. Only difference is that they realized a majority of players could care less about the letters on screen and just want to get on with the game, so they moved these conversations about lore somewhere they wouldn't bother core fans.

It's still there for hardcore fans. In Peace Walker, tapes were exactly like CODEC calls: listening to tapes forces you to do exactly what you did while hearing CODEC conversations in previous games, stare at the screen doing nothing else. In MGSV, they actually give you the option of playing while you listen to them, but you can still sit around doing nothing if you want.

-They made the main character practically mute, when one of the biggest parts in every other game in the series is the main character's take on things.

Biggest parts according to whom? Most people mocked Snake's dialogue... Do I really need to point you to the memes about Snake's lines being repetitions of the other person's last words? Kojima said over and over during promotion of MGSV that Snake would be a silent protagonist. It was deliberate and for good reason.

-While we're on this, ditching the estabilished voice of the main character for 16 years for a Hollywood actor, and then barely using him (David Hayter is still perfectly able to do a good Snake voice as demonstrated by the Ford commercial, if his past performances were mediocre then the blame is on his voice director).

You may be annoyed by it, but those are realities of game production. Splinter Cell Blacklist doesn't use Ironside's iconic voice, but it's still one of the most complete game experiences in that franchise. Same thing here... MGSV's story and gameplay don't suffer from that change.

-The barely discernible difference when going through the same places. At least back in the day when you used to backtrack you could have unlocked a few previously locked doors. This point is linked to point one.

It's the same place, as you've pointed out, you expect it to change just because? Backtracking in MGS1 took you to the same rooms you were previously, very little changes. Same thing with most of MGS2, MGS3 and Peace Walker. Unless there's a reason for the scenario to change, it won't.

And even then... Did you visit Lamar Khaate Palace after mission 45?

-The unremarkable music, outside of Sins of the Father (which was used in-game in the most ill-fitted and bizarre way possible) and Quiet's Theme.

Really?

'V Has Come To'
'Afghanistan's a Big Place'
'Parasites'
'Allegiance Defined'
'Introduction to Africa'
'The Code Talker'
'Metallic Archaea'
'OKB Zero'
'Return'

And I'm not even in the Extended OST yet...

 

[Theslammer]

MGSV is one of my favorite games of this generation, one of the most captivating I've played, and

Spoiler

Huey(I'm adding this just so people can't guess it's Huey since he has a short name)

is a fascinating character. Playing Ground Zeroes after Phantom Pain and listening to the

Spoiler

Huey tapes

reveals a lot.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

I'm pretty glad I jumped into this game having no emotional investment whatsoever in the series prior. I just ignored anything even resembling a story and just spent 50 hours playing a goofy military base invasion simulator.

 

[Torquill]

My read on Ocelot is that we see his true personality in this game. He has a reason to be putting on a, constantly escalating, show (for GRU, for Solid Snake, for Patriots AI) in all his other appearances.

 

[Svejk]

Biggest disappointment for me, was the shallowness of the 'bases'. I was expecting to delve deep underground into high tech, secret fortresses... these were all just slab buildings with a few rooms to go into. The amount of open world space to said 'super fortresses' was horribly imbalanced.

It's a shame, because the gameplay was literally (and finally) perfected... Just needed more content to compliment that perfect gameplay.

 

[Shalashaska]

My only disappointment was that almost all of the cutscenes were shown in the trailers leading up to release so I felt like I had already seen most of it.

 

[Koyuga]

My only disappointment was that almost all of the cutscenes were shown in the trailers leading up to release so I felt like I had already seen most of it.

This is perhaps my one of biggest problems with it as well, but it’s also kind of hilarious - despite critics and fans prodding the franchise as “Movie Gear Solid” due to it’s traditionally heavy use of cutscenes, MGSV barely had any compared to the other entries, and yet is the most similar to an actual movie in it’s marketing campaign.

MGSV will always hold a special place for me. I was so excited for it, and so disappointed in it. It frustrated me, but my time spent playing it was pure joy. It will probably remain the only MGS game I may never replay because of how large, grand, and premature it is. What is in the game is phenomenal, some of the best scenes and absolutely some of the best performances not only in Metal Gear but in video games as a medium. But the way the game as a whole is so uneven and lacking of definitive wrappings never lets me feel at ease. Whether it was intentional for the title Phantom Pain to fit the game so well in how it makes the player feel - at least for me - this accurately is very debatable but god damn if it isn’t the most meta “fuck you” I've ever experienced in a franchise.

 

[kris.]

This thread just makes me want to replay MGS3 and V as soon as possible tbh.

 

[TheMagician]

I actually think the game was no where near finished and that Konami and Kojima fell out because Konami said the release date was final and were pissed off about Kojima wanting more time and the game not being fully complete in time.

It's clear from playing that there was meant to be so much more to the story in the second chapter.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

How about:

-There are no real rewards for exploring in the game, unlike the other games in the series. And I mean REAL rewards like WEAPONS or ITEMS or CAMOUFLAGES, not music tapes, blueprints or materials.

Why would blueprints not count? They give new weapons and items eventually. Aside from music tapes, you can also find tapes that affect enemy soldiers when played on the Idroid using loudspeakers. For example the "soldier eliminated" tape will stop an alert phase. The tape of the guy with diarrhea will make them no longer suspicious if they're about to check whether you're hiding in a toilet

-Tapes are not a real substitute for codec calls, we used to have both of those things, except the tapes were in the Briefing.

Tapes are codecs, except not missable and if you prefer you can listen to them without pausing gameplay. There are still mission specific briefing tapes, which can be accessed on the main ops selection list, and during mission briefing additional briefing calls can be accessed from the VI on the mission tab in the Idroid.

-They made the main character practically mute, when one of the biggest parts in every other game in the series is the main character's take on things.

This makes sense. Venom has more of a muted personality than the other Snakes. Also, he speaks plenty in the cassette tapes

-While we're on this, ditching the estabilished voice of the main character for 16 years for a Hollywood actor, and then barely using him (David Hayter is still perfectly able to do a good Snake voice as demonstrated by the Ford commercial, if his past performances were mediocre then the blame is on his voice director).

Made sense considering the Venom twist. Also, Sutherland does a pretty good job. I like the subtle differences in delivery between Ishmael/BB vs Venom, in line with the difference in personality (BB being more assertive and cocky). Not sure Hayter could have pulled that off as well

-The barely discernible difference when going through the same places. At least back in the day when you used to backtrack you could have unlocked a few previously locked doors. This point is linked to point one.

I thought combat readiness, along with differences due to time of day, did this well. Much more emergent than previous games

-The unremarkable music, outside of Sins of the Father (which was used in-game in the most ill-fitted and bizarre way possible) and Quiet's Theme.

I sort of agree with this point. The soundtrack wasn't bad, but slightly lacking in personality compared to other games

 

[Work of an Enemy Stand]

Some of the points I made weren't even complaints, per se. Even if I don't like some of those things, I can appreciate that someone else might enjoy them, hell I might've enjoyed them elsewhere.

But the question I answered was "why do some people think this game doesn't feel like a Metal Gear game?", I just listed some reasons as to why I don't think MGSV feels the same as the old Metal Gears.

And come on guys: finding a blue print, to then getting the materials (if you don't have them already), to then waiting for the timer on the development to finish (which can range from 0 minutes for the really basic stuff, to tens of minutes for the somewhat better stuff, to hours, to DAYS), to then waiting for the box to arrive at your destination, to finally getting the weapon/item is WAY different than just finding a weapon/item and keeping it forever.

The gameplay altering tapes are cool, but their effects are too similar to each other and personally I just found them too clunky to use effectively (but maybe there was a tutorial or menu that I forgot/didn't see).

Biggest parts according to whom? Most people mocked Snake's dialogue... Do I really need to point you to the memes about Snake's lines being repetitions of the other person's last words? Kojima said over and over during promotion of MGSV that Snake would be a silent protagonist. It was deliberate and for good reason.

I have to be misunderstanding you, because you can't possibly be arguing that how Snake dealt with and felt about the things that happened around him in the games were "not that important". Especially with this being the fanbase that pitched a fit when they found out they wouldn't be playing as him through the majority of MGS2.

And what do the memes have to do with anything? Most people, me included, mocked Snake repeating his lines because it sounded unnatural and funny (even if I still liked it), we wanted the dialogue to sound more natural, not to have 90% of Snake's lines nixed!

Being deliberate only means they didn't do this accidentally, "for good reason" is debatable.

 

[Chakra_Khan]

I felt that Troy Baker should be commended for having to work with what he was given. Kojima apparently gave him stern looks when he tried to emulate Patrick Zimmerman's Ocelot. Let me tell you what that is: that is the result of a creator being too indulgent and too in his own head and feeling compelled to augment that which doesn't need to be augmented. I know this because I've seen it first hand. I've worked with creators and eventually you pick up on their -isms.

While I'm on the topic of criticisms; I strongly feel that the 80's aesthetic wasn't pushed hard enough. I'd read somewhere that they were researching to add this analog scan line like filter to the game but unfortunately it was slowing things down so they nixed it. Shame.

The idroid irked me. I understand that Kojima must've wanted something to facilitate the gameplay as an on the fly multipurpose tool but c'mon. The hologram interface was a bit much for 1984 and yes, I'm aware of the the universe we're talking about and no I don't see that as an excuse.

The expository nature of the dialogue in THIS game. Kojima doesn't imbue a sense of "show don't tell " in his games.......he shows AND tells. Ocelot spewing lines like "thirst for revenge" and what not. We know what the theme of the game is. No one in Sons of Liberty ever uttered the word "meme" once.

I had this thought recently whilst watching the work of David Lynch. I would bet my left testicle that the campiness of films like Lost Highway and a show like Twin Peaks gave Kojima this sense of "not taking myself too seriously" to unprecedented levels. The camp is fine, I just wish he'd tone that shit back and stop trying to be Lynch with that shit. This in turn makes me very concerned for death stranding. He invests all this time and money into motion capture technology just to have them move like cartoon characters. Like that scene when Quiet makes it to motherbase and is being escorted off to the brig by Ocelots goons. She is doing this weird slow motion walk that people don't do while everyone else is moving at normal speed.

Why? Why do directors do this shit? Why do they have these urges? Whether it's Ridley Scott telling Charlize Theron to not run to the side when a rolling object is heading for her in one direction or Kojima getting people to act unnaturally or Christopher Nolan giving us the dark knight rises, the case is similar: biting off more than you can chew.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

They missed such a golden opportunity.

All they had to do was take the premise - an injured Big Boss (scarred physically and mentally) seeking revenge - and that would have been enough. Just have him doing a series of messed up acts with a single-minded focus on vengeance. Acts that irrevocably damage any idea of him being a hero.

But instead he's this placid guy. You hire this actor who could pull off a 'should he be doing this' torture scene, but make him the dude stopping the torture. What?

I think Kojima grew to like Big Boss too much to give him the 'heel turn' he deserved.

Well I mean yeah, if you're talking about Venom and not Big Boss....

 

[Roni]

I have to be misunderstanding you, because you can't possibly be arguing that how Snake dealt with and felt about the things that happened around him in the games were "not that important".

Saying it wasn't the 'biggest part' doesn't mean it wasn't important for those other games. It just means it wasn't the focal point, it was not part of the series' main DNA. It played a role in those games, especially in Snake Eater and Peace Walker, it doesn't in V...

Being deliberate only means they didn't do this accidentally, "for good reason" is debatable.

Don't mistake my use of 'good reason' for it being a reason you should like, it just means it makes sense narratively and thematically.