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What Happened to Paper Mario? (HyperBitHero)
- Thread starter VDenter
- Start date
HyperBitHero
Member
Just like Color Splash.
KojiKnight
Member
It's time to let paper mario as an RPG series go. Nintendo doesn't want 2 Mario RPG series, and Mario and Luigi are where they decided to go.
Paper Mario is Nintendo's Mario test bed series, just like Kirby is also often used as a test bed by HAL.
Paper Mario is Nintendo's Mario test bed series, just like Kirby is also often used as a test bed by HAL.
TheDinoman
Member
Well, at least we still actually get proper Kirby games in addition to all the gimmicky experimental stuff.
yup, 720/60 would've been nice, but it still has great direction.
what a waste....
Spieler Eins
Member
Super Paper Mario was a mess initially. However, nowadays I might actually appreciate the new things it did much more, even with all of its bad/ugly design choices. All the weird decisions it had now feel more refreshing then ever, after all these blandness-era Nintendo games, where everything had to look and feel like New Super Mario Bros. or simply not stray too far away from feeling exactly like the Wii/DS mega-hits. For the future, Mario Odyssey hopefully marks the point at which they finally dropped these trite/safe design choices like "no new characters that weren't on Super Nintendo".
TunaMarshmallow
Member
I've always assumed they changed (destroyed) the Paper Mario franchise simply because they didn't want more than one RPG-style Mario line. Mario & Luigi won out as the RPG line, so Paper Mario had to become something else. Is this true? It's just what I've assumed.
HyperBitHero
Member
Are you honestly trying to argue that since.... (yes, I'm actually gonna put something this stupid behind spoiler tags)
Bowser got black paint on him which turned him extra evil, that's supposed to count as some new villain or some kind of switch up? It's a nonsensical idea that was really unneeded. Him having black paint on him changes nothing about his character, and the paint is not a character in its own right either. They just needed to come up with some kind of justification because it makes no sense why Bowser would want to steal paint normally. So they decided, oh uh he has black paint on him, and the black paint hates normal paint...
i mean probably.
The problem isn't that it became psuedo action adventure.
If it was a 9/10 game, people wouldn't mind as much. The issue is the game stinks. For some reason they kept the turn based battle system despite calling it action adventure. If you're going to do that, you need to go all in.
Take away turn battling, add at least 10-20 overworld skills and abilities you use for transversal and defeating enemies.
Even TTYD had:
1. Turning skinny like paper,
2. rolling like paper,
3. differrent levels of jump and hammer,
3. Paper Boat, Airplane, etc
4. Several partner abilities
5. and more.
I'd want them to explain why a "RPG" like TTYD has more actions you can do in the overworld than an "Action-Adventure" game like CS? Cause that makes no sense.
Give him more items than a hammer to use on the overworld, a la Zelda.
Don't go halfway and call it a day.
No
This is what I'm talking about.
Both series (well I'm gonna only talk of the 1st 2 Paper Marios) take inspirations from SMRPG but Mario & Luigi is closer mechanically and even have a closer audio signature to it (Shimomura after all).
Kinda like for how outside of Nintendo, no one sane gave half a shit that Metroid Prime games were not made by the same people as the other good Metroid games.
Or how 2D Mario and 3D Mario are not made by the same teams at all.
Bu internally 1 team is a clear favorite with higher production budgets and nearly no supervision stifling the lead's creativity.
I don't know really, PM had an interesting premise and the way it used characters that weren't Mario was worth trying.
Cutting the allies is literally the worst thing you can do to these games IMO.
M&L have a clear identity that stretch back to the SMRPG days that you don't really see in the PM games.
I feel like even taking TTYD and M&L games, they're distinct enough that you shouldn't have a problem of the games competing with each others.
Ironically with the death of the 3DS, it's more M&L games that are in a bad position.
Switch being closer to a WiiU than 3DS means that PM team has more experience on larger scale project and should have a better time adapting to Nintendo's new paradigm.
HyperBitHero
Member
They recently came out with an HD texture back for dolphin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh8Anq_VRm4
Living the Dream
Member
Fans proving once again they're worth. Nintendo stays behind.
"And this all applies to Color Splash as well"
Sure, if you never played it.
I actually enjoyed Color Splash and its combat (I guess I had the fortune of not playing Sticker Star, so for me it was all fresh). You never had to worry about running out (heck, often I couldn't carry any more) and it lead to some interesting battles where you actually had to think about your attacks rather than just selecting your most powerful attacks and buffs, as is often the case in most battle systems. The
was a real highlight.
Also weird he talks about how the humour of the first games is gone and Color Splash is one of the more amusing games I've played in a long time. Oh, he gets to it and apparently thought it was all paper jokes er no it wasn't.
Honestly, Sticker Star clearly wasn't a great game for most. But this complete dismissal of Color Splash is rather sad.
lol: guy didn't even change the battle options for quicker selecting or maybe he didn't actually play it and is just basing it off footage he's found. Seriously, he apparently never used coins (er you need them to buy quite a few things, even if it is quite easy to max the counter) and never ran out of paint (so he never used the most powerful cards?)
If anything, the problem is (if he played it), he went in with a negative attitude and is wondering why he came out with one.
OK, I do think he actually played it, but it feels he only played it to say he had. He had no intention of enjoying it, did the bare minimum and probably rushed through it. How can you talk Color Splash and not mention the greatest electronic manual ever conceived for starters?
Honestly, this is why I don't really have time for the whiney Paper Mario fans. I played TTYD when it came out, I enjoyed it, but I can also enjoy other games. Heck Color Splash finally did what I truly wanted from the series when I first played it, a world completely made from paper (though, in his view this is apparently bad right )
Oh, and Miyamoto was just an advisor. It was Intelligent Systems that had final say. Seriously, can we stop this myth and misreading that Iwata Ask interview. The only thing you can really pin on him is the use of Mario mainstay characters. Thing is, there's a lot of Mario characters now (technically including all the previous original characters from previous Paper Mario games) so that's not really the reason it's mostly Toads. Again, that seems to be an Intelligent Systems decision.
Sure, if you never played it.
I actually enjoyed Color Splash and its combat (I guess I had the fortune of not playing Sticker Star, so for me it was all fresh). You never had to worry about running out (heck, often I couldn't carry any more) and it lead to some interesting battles where you actually had to think about your attacks rather than just selecting your most powerful attacks and buffs, as is often the case in most battle systems. The
meat battle
Also weird he talks about how the humour of the first games is gone and Color Splash is one of the more amusing games I've played in a long time. Oh, he gets to it and apparently thought it was all paper jokes er no it wasn't.
Honestly, Sticker Star clearly wasn't a great game for most. But this complete dismissal of Color Splash is rather sad.
lol: guy didn't even change the battle options for quicker selecting or maybe he didn't actually play it and is just basing it off footage he's found. Seriously, he apparently never used coins (er you need them to buy quite a few things, even if it is quite easy to max the counter) and never ran out of paint (so he never used the most powerful cards?)
If anything, the problem is (if he played it), he went in with a negative attitude and is wondering why he came out with one.
OK, I do think he actually played it, but it feels he only played it to say he had. He had no intention of enjoying it, did the bare minimum and probably rushed through it. How can you talk Color Splash and not mention the greatest electronic manual ever conceived for starters?
Honestly, this is why I don't really have time for the whiney Paper Mario fans. I played TTYD when it came out, I enjoyed it, but I can also enjoy other games. Heck Color Splash finally did what I truly wanted from the series when I first played it, a world completely made from paper (though, in his view this is apparently bad right )
Oh, and Miyamoto was just an advisor. It was Intelligent Systems that had final say. Seriously, can we stop this myth and misreading that Iwata Ask interview. The only thing you can really pin on him is the use of Mario mainstay characters. Thing is, there's a lot of Mario characters now (technically including all the previous original characters from previous Paper Mario games) so that's not really the reason it's mostly Toads. Again, that seems to be an Intelligent Systems decision.
Living the Dream
Member
"And this all applies to Color Splash as well"
Sure, if you never played it.
I actually enjoyed Color Splash and its combat (I guess I had the fortune of not playing Sticker Star, so for me it was all fresh). You never had to worry about running out (heck, often I couldn't carry any more) and it lead to some interesting battles where you actually had to think about your attacks rather than just selecting your most powerful attacks and buffs, as is often the case in most battle systems. Thewas a real highlight.meat battle
Also weird he talks about how the humour of the first games is gone and Color Splash is one of the more amusing games I've played in a long time. Oh, he gets to it and apparently thought it was all paper jokes er no it wasn't.
Honestly, Sticker Star clearly wasn't a great game for most. But this complete dismissal of Color Splash is rather sad.
lol: guy didn't even change the battle options for quicker selecting or maybe he didn't actually play it and is just basing it off footage he's found. Seriously, he apparently never used coins (er you need them to buy quite a few things, even if it is quite easy to max the counter) and never ran out of paint (so he never used the most powerful cards?)
If anything, the problem is (if he played it), he went in with a negative attitude and is wondering why he came out with one.
OK, I do think he actually played it, but it feels he only played it to say he had. He had no intention of enjoying it, did the bare minimum and probably rushed through it. How can you talk Color Splash and not mention the greatest electronic manual ever conceived for starters?
Honestly, this is why I don't really have time for the whiney Paper Mario fans. I played TTYD when it came out, I enjoyed it, but I can also enjoy other games. Heck Color Splash finally did what I truly wanted from the series when I first played it, a world completely made from paper (though, in his view this is apparently bad right )
Oh, and Miyamoto was just an advisor. It was Intelligent Systems that had final say. Seriously, can we stop this myth and misreading that Iwata Ask interview. The only thing you can really pin on him is the use of Mario mainstay characters. Thing is, there's a lot of Mario characters now (technically including all the previous original characters from previous Paper Mario games) so that's not really the reason it's mostly Toads. Again, that seems to be an Intelligent Systems decision.
Explain this quick selection
Green Mamba
Member
"Why did no one play this sequel to a terrible game? It's better, we swear!"
HyperBitHero
Member
"And this all applies to Color Splash as well"
Pretty sure I said "all of this guidance applies to color splash as well."
As in, the guidance from Miyamoto I just spend minutes explaining, regarding using established characters and not trying to focus on the story. I even showed another quote referencing that design philosophy regarding Color Splash. You just made a very long post responding to something you didn't hear right.
You act like Color Splash is the first ever game to improve upon its predecessor and as such it can't possibly be true, as it's never happened before.
Basically removes the need to go through separate screens to select your attack.
No, that picture was the only response to that. The rest of my post was in response to your whole video as I listened to it.
So sure, apologies for not hearing one word, but the rest of my post still stands and to be honest, the tone of your Color Splash rant is basically what that first line says anyway, so it kind of works anyway.
Color Splash was still really bad. The Gameplay is reason enough to dismiss that game.
Video reminds me of a couple aspects of TTYD that I recall left me a bit cold.
1) The hub(town, sewers, and ruins) was a mess to navigate and I always kind of loathed returning to it.
2) The combat, while it features a lot of imaginative fights and some novel concepts(bosses and special encounters for sure), I can't disregard how much downtime was spent performing the same moves through so many fodder fights. You can't auto-resolve them either like a FF game as you are stuck pulling back on the stick or timing button presses always. (Though it did let you insta-kill enemies if powered enough right? Been so long...)
Future titles certainly had their problems as well. The town hub in SPM was even more dull to traipse back and forth and find the next level. Sticker Star/CS tried to expand the combat repetition by enforcing ability limitations(combat durability in essence), possibly in a bid to bring value to an economy(get coins, buy useful cards, repeat) while introducing a bit of chaos utilizing hoarded cards when in a pinch over reliance on default skills. As discussed for years though, the end doesn't quite justify the means without much reward beyond either more paint reserves and the 'potential' for card replenishment. (The trial/error boss fights were the largest problem as it is -such- a punishing process to fail when experimenting)
I suppose I just don't hold any of the combat systems from Paper Mario to such as high a standard as many do. I respected SPM quite a bit for not faffing about and getting straight to the point(imaginitive exploration, quirky writing and scenario design). However, that game didn't quite stick a great landing either given the play experience rarely challenged your dexterity and the sluggishness of partner exchange hindered the flow. I'd still take PM64 and TTYD dead weight over the sequels though as they absolutely have the greatest highs.
sixteen-bit
Member
Wow they totally flushed this franchise down the toilet.
Oh, thanks for the info.
Now I know, I'll be sure to change my whole opinion, pretend I never played it and consider it a bad game.
thanks, we appreciate it.
Double Donut
Member
Color Splash's humor is still great even if the battles are still Stickers and the RPG elements are gone. Huey is a great sidekick.
Now if only the story was on the par of the humor...
Now if only the story was on the par of the humor...
HyperBitHero
Member
My apologies.
Common Knowledge
Member
I do actually think that the series has gone a bit overboard with the focusing on the "paper" aspect a bit too much.
I may just be not be remembering properly, but the original Paper Mario made absolutely no references or self-aware quips about it's paper quality. It was just an artstyle choice to reflect the storybook theme the game was going for. TTYD became a little self-aware with the paper-specific moves you can learn like the Paper Airplane (which was fine).
The recent games, however, live and breathe the paper aspect to the point of exhaustion. You're constantly being bombarded with little jokes, references, animations, and fourth-wall breaking antics to remind you once again, that everything is, in fact, made of paper.
I'm ok with stuff like that once in a while, but it's gotten to the point that the whole concept of the series has become one big self-deprecating joke of sorts. Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam really highlighted this point, with Paper Mario quite literally being just an "object" to be utilized, and the Paper Toads being objects to collect.
There's been plenty of gameplay issues with the recent games beyond this, but I really feel that the "bleeding over" of the artsytle into the gameplay and dialogue has gone hand in hand with the decline of the series.
I may just be not be remembering properly, but the original Paper Mario made absolutely no references or self-aware quips about it's paper quality. It was just an artstyle choice to reflect the storybook theme the game was going for. TTYD became a little self-aware with the paper-specific moves you can learn like the Paper Airplane (which was fine).
The recent games, however, live and breathe the paper aspect to the point of exhaustion. You're constantly being bombarded with little jokes, references, animations, and fourth-wall breaking antics to remind you once again, that everything is, in fact, made of paper.
I'm ok with stuff like that once in a while, but it's gotten to the point that the whole concept of the series has become one big self-deprecating joke of sorts. Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam really highlighted this point, with Paper Mario quite literally being just an "object" to be utilized, and the Paper Toads being objects to collect.
There's been plenty of gameplay issues with the recent games beyond this, but I really feel that the "bleeding over" of the artsytle into the gameplay and dialogue has gone hand in hand with the decline of the series.
Green Mamba
Member
Sure it's happened before, but you need to be damn sure you have a good hook to sell to people who hated the first, something Color Splash had none of. It was essentially sold as Sticker Star, but better, trust us.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
Color Splash is definitely a great game. Some people should actually play it and don't be angry because it is not a copy cat from a 13 year old game, that is a honestly a bit dated by now in almost every aspect.
The combat in Color Splash can be a little slow first (can be changed in the preferences) until you get it, but can be avoided most time anyway and can actually be fun if you do it right. Every enemy formation can be defeated with the right cards within seconds, but the problem is... it can also be defeated with 10 cards in several minutes if you do not think about it. That is why some people hate the combat and think it is slow.
Making this worse, both Kirby and Yoshi have gone in this direction too, killing the novelty.
When you're NIntendo you have to though, otherwise you'll get showered in Splatoon 1.5 comments.
Lol it still holds up very well despite its age.
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
I feel like this is beating a dead horse.
I am indeed.
Honestly the battle system in Color Splash wasn't as bad for me as it was for others. Advanced controls should have definitely been the standard control method and when you get the ability to use multiple cards per turn it was better.
TTYD gameplay is still king. Never played Sticker Star and never will at this point.
TTYD gameplay is still king. Never played Sticker Star and never will at this point.
HyperBitHero
Member
I don't see how TTYD is dated in any way. Please explain this to me. It's a pretty timeless game in almost every aspect. The only thing "dated" I can see is the Sunshine references, which aren't even a bad thing. That's a reason I like the game more.
I'm probably in the minority, but I honestly way prefer the TTYD style to color splash.
I like the black outlines, and how it has a comic book feel to it. Plus I really don't like the world itself actually being paper, and I don't like paper being a full gimmick either.
Originally, it was just paper mario because the characters where sprites in a 3d world, so they looked like paper.
Lol, you can like color splash without having to bash TTYD.
I like the black outlines, and how it has a comic book feel to it. Plus I really don't like the world itself actually being paper, and I don't like paper being a full gimmick either.
Originally, it was just paper mario because the characters where sprites in a 3d world, so they looked like paper.
Lol, you can like color splash without having to bash TTYD.
The backtracking maybe? I dunno lol, I agree that the game is pretty timeless as well.
Nah, I agree with you. Color Splash still looks good though, that much is obvious.
IrishNinja
Member
ugh, i bought SS just for that Donkey Kong level promo they had but couldn't get into it...i even finished the Wii one, but i was just kinda done
crazy hearing Color Splash was good, might have to track that one down on the cheap now
also this
crazy hearing Color Splash was good, might have to track that one down on the cheap now
also this
It looks good technically, in the way that like avatar does. I still prefer the visuals of a movie like The thing though to avatar.
WhatareyoutalkingaboutWhoareyoutalkingto.gif
I need to go back and finish Colour Splash, despite the battle mechanics/interface it's awesome.
They really messed up with that combat, whoo boy so many presses /swipes to do an attack. It looks like they want you to really plan out each attack so that you use the right combination to take out the enemies in one turn and then designed around the gamepad to the games detriment.
I also don't understand why they put the Ninja shy guy that sucks out stuff you have painted. Encourage you to revisit levels?
But the rest of the game is really great, such a shame.
They really messed up with that combat, whoo boy so many presses /swipes to do an attack. It looks like they want you to really plan out each attack so that you use the right combination to take out the enemies in one turn and then designed around the gamepad to the games detriment.
I also don't understand why they put the Ninja shy guy that sucks out stuff you have painted. Encourage you to revisit levels?
But the rest of the game is really great, such a shame.
this.
Rodney McKay
Member
I genuinely enjoyed Sticker Star (it's one of my favorite 3DS games), but I completely understand all the complaints most people had with it.
For me, losing the RPG elements and not having much of a story or characters didn't matter much for me because I just had so much fun exploring the levels and collecting all the stickers.
The game is really more of an old-school adventure game than it is an RPG. The stickers are like the items you would get in LucasArts adventure games, and you have to figure out the right ones to use depending on the puzzle you're trying to solve. Most of the time it's pretty obvious what to do (use cold stickers on hot stuff, use fan to blow away stuff, etc), but there were enough genuinely clever solutions that made me really appreciate the game, like during some boss encounters.
I honestly think it would have been better if they'd called it a Paper Toad/Peach/Luigi/Wario game or something, to distance it more from the core Paper Mario RPG's.
For me, losing the RPG elements and not having much of a story or characters didn't matter much for me because I just had so much fun exploring the levels and collecting all the stickers.
The game is really more of an old-school adventure game than it is an RPG. The stickers are like the items you would get in LucasArts adventure games, and you have to figure out the right ones to use depending on the puzzle you're trying to solve. Most of the time it's pretty obvious what to do (use cold stickers on hot stuff, use fan to blow away stuff, etc), but there were enough genuinely clever solutions that made me really appreciate the game, like during some boss encounters.
I honestly think it would have been better if they'd called it a Paper Toad/Peach/Luigi/Wario game or something, to distance it more from the core Paper Mario RPG's.
The late Wii U era really was the time of tone-deaf Nintendo. Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival, Tokyo Mirage Sessions, Star Fox Zero, Metroid Prime Federation Force, Paper Mario Color Splash, Mario and Luigi Paper Jam, Chibi-Robo Zip Lash, all unsuccessful titles that failed to connect to the majority of the series' fans. Some were decent, some were bad, but they all failed to gel with what most people wanted.
TheDinoman
Member
Most of those games were just kind of filler. After 2014, Nintendo was obviously moving on from the Wii U and to the NX, and most of the remaining output were just low budget spinoffs jumbled together by lesser teams just to give the console something in its release schedule for another year, while their main developers moved onto the Switch. It kinda got the point where Nintendo completely forgoed E3 2016 outside of Zelda, because at that point they clearly didn't have anything else to show that was ready.
I'm jumped shipped after Sticker Star and never came back. After seeing what Color Splash was it looks like I made the right call =/
They weren't going to make big investments in Wii U software that abysmal start. We're lucky they didnt pull the plug all together.
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