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[Spoiled Milk]

How does the alt-right square their views with Trump's union busting stance?

There is no such thing as "the alt-right". When I was younger and more adventurous in my reading they were the neoreactionaries like "Curtis Yarvin" who sought to question in a Dark Enlightenment practically everything western society had come to agree upon like racial liberalism, the equality of races and genders, democracy, republicanism. It had people like Peter Thiel saying "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible." Something, something, "whig history revisionism", whatever. But Peter Thiel is a libertarian, he's not a socialist. Mencius Moldbug in the same vein, although I think all he cares about is making sure he can legally kill homeless people.

So once you've started down that road you attract all kinds of racists, misogynists, and other discordians who similary don't fit in the mold of little william f buckleys. These are mostly idiots who think they've redpilled themselves out of the matrix where public school zombies shuffle toward white genocide. But just because you've created a space for alternative schools of thought doesn't mean there's much in common between the people squatting there. They're just mouthbreathing outcasts with overmuch vitriol. So asking how the alt-right thinks of anything is really the wrong question.

Anyway Richard Spencer is a socialist, wants singlepayer healthcare, and thinks Marx was "kinda right", so there's your answer.

 

[Wilsongt]

Trump just tweeted condolences for the cops killed in the helicopter crash, but nothing yet about the woman run over or the others injured today.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Deepest condolences to the families & fellow officers of the VA State Police who died today. You're all among the best this nation produces.

They still haven't said anything about that mosque bombing the other day either, have they?

This presidency is living up to its dumpster fire reputation.

 

[B-Dubs]

This presidency is living up to its dumpster fire reputation.

We're well past dumpster fire at this point.

 

[kess]

We're well past dumpster fire at this point.

The dumpster fire that leads to an underground coal vein

 

[benicillin]

I'm having a lot of trouble processing the events of today. It's the saddest I've been lately, and the ACLU tweetstorming about the Virginia chapter protecting the rights of white supremacists but denouncing racism while people are dead in the streets disgusts me on so many levels.

 

[pigeon]

There is no such thing as "the alt-right". When I was younger and more adventurous in my reading they were the neoreactionaries like "Curtis Yarvin" who sought to question in a Dark Enlightenment practically everything western society had come to agree upon like racial liberalism, the equality of races and genders, democracy, republicanism. It had people like Peter Thiel saying "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible." Something, something, "whig history revisionism", whatever. But Peter Thiel is a libertarian, he's not a socialist. Mencius Moldbug in the same vein, although I think all he cares about is making sure he can legally kill homeless people.

So once you've started down that road you attract all kinds of racists, misogynists, and other discordians who similary don't fit in the mold of little william f buckleys. These are mostly idiots who think they've redpilled themselves out of the matrix where public school zombies shuffle toward white genocide. But just because you've created a space for alternative schools of thought doesn't mean there's much in common between the people squatting there. They're just mouthbreathing outcasts with overmuch vitriol. So asking how the alt-right thinks of anything is really the wrong question.

This ignores how people adopt the beliefs of their coalition on topics they haven't considered carefully, which is a pretty important part of American politics since our coalitions are so large.

 

[BlastProcessing]

How does the alt-right square their views with Trump's union busting stance?

The NeoReactionary arm of the Alt-Right believes that the Enlightenment was a mistake because it created a false binary choice between Capitalism and Communism. The want to rewind things to the Pre-Enlightenment by destroying most of teh cornerstones of our society. This is why they rail against Universities and why Bannon is trying to burn the government down.

What they want is the return to a feudal system, ideally run by someone like Elon Musk, hence the weird Silicon Valley/Alt Right connection.

 

[Valhelm]

Nazis called themselves national socialists not because they actually believed in socialism but because they were opposed to capitalism because its global natural uprooted established national communities and was believed to be controlled by Jews, and because they were bandwagonning on the idea that socialism = government does stuff. So it's government protecting the volk. They didn't believe in class struggle though because that would be detrimental to the nation, they believed in class compromise.

A lot of Neo Nazis don't care about the economics of it at all, just the race part. But the ones who do are the ones talking about (((globalists))).

Nazis didn't oppose capitalism, and eagerly cooperated with "Aryan" bankers and industrialists. This is why Bayer and Thyssen-Krupp don't like talking about their history!

They opposed international finance only to the degree that it was considered a Jewish tool of subverting the German nation. They even insisted that American bankers were on the same team as the Soviet government, because both groups included Jews in some prominent positions.

The globalist conspiracy theory is just this delusion updated to modern language! Guys like Cernovich and Ben Garrison carefully avoid explicitly anti-Semitic language while pretending that George Soros and communist activists are working for the same goals.

 

[Lucky Forward]

From the Onion yesterday, even more true today:

Report: Most Americans Now Getting Their News While Peeking Out Between Fingers

“Whether in print, online, or televised form, our research indicates that 80 percent of Americans engage with news by cupping their hands over their eyes and occasionally steeling themselves to glance at the content before them,” said lead author Dr. Jacob Elam, noting that after opening a link to a news story, four out of five Americans stand up and walk away from their computers while muttering “Oh god, oh my god” before returning to their seats.

 

[sphagnum]

Nazis didn't oppose capitalism, and eagerly cooperated with "Aryan" bankers and industrialists. This is why Bayer and Thyssen-Krupp don't like talking about their history!

They opposed international finance only to the degree that it was considered a Jewish tool of subverting the German nation. They even insisted that American bankers were on the same team as the Soviet government, because both groups included Jews in some prominent positions.

The globalist conspiracy theory is just this delusion updated to modern language! Guys like Cernovich and Ben Garrison carefully avoid explicitly anti-Semitic language while pretending that George Soros and communist activists are working for the same goals.

Strasser and the SA did, but obviously we all know how that turned out.

Perhaps I should be more correct in saying they opposed international capitalism but didn't really have problems with the capitalist mode of production itself, so long as it was done for the betterment of the volk.

 

[sphagnum]

The NeoReactionary arm of the Alt-Right believes that the Enlightenment was a mistake because it created a false binary choice between Capitalism and Communism. The want to rewind things to the Pre-Enlightenment by destroying most of teh cornerstones of our society. This is why they rail against Universities and why Bannon is trying to burn the government down.

What they want is the return to a feudal system, ideally run by someone like Elon Musk, hence the weird Silicon Valley/Alt Right connection.

Hence why they like Evola.

"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."

 

[Spoiled Milk]

What's there to square? The alt-right hates unions. The Nazis hated unions too, and they eventually got around to purging and killing any of their party that were serious about the socialism part of national socialism.

Hitler hated unions because they were uncontrollable pockets of political power that were not accountable to him or his party. Nothing is allowed to exist outside of a party. So he replaced them all with the German Labour Front. That's contradictory to this fantasy that the Nazis hated workers.

No socialism can position one race over another. The majority of working class Americans are black, Hispanic, or Native American, so any American society of the proletariat must by definition be for and by people of color. On a global skill, nearly all of those who do not own capital are not white.

If we accept that socialism is an economy owned by the working class, and not "the government spending money on stuff", then we can see that a white-exclusive socialism is impossible.

First off, your definition of socialism as skipping "the government" is wrong. Marx, in Critique of the Gotha Program:

Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

The state manages the distribution of the labor. The state is the transitory period between "real communism" and capitalism. The state has to exist. The state spends the money, etc. If you're a marxist, of course. Maybe you're an Owens style anarchist and just want everyone to get along in communal, self managed societies. If so, good luck eradicating racism based on a loose society formed by tribal enclaves.

Second, that's specific to the United States. It's possible (and there were) socialist countries which practiced race inequality because they had demographic makeups that allowed for it. Like Italy.

Nazis called themselves national socialists not because they actually believed in socialism but because they were opposed to capitalism because its global natural uprooted established national communities and was believed to be controlled by Jews, and because they were bandwagonning on the idea that socialism = government does stuff. So it's government protecting the volk. They didn't believe in class struggle though because that would be detrimental to the nation, they believed in class compromise.

I'm okay with this definition of socialism. But it is, of course, just one definition. There are many people who would point to any country that has extreme governmental control over the means of production as socialism because the state implicitly safeguards the welfare of the people.

 

[Ryuuroden]

benji banned? Oh well

Its ok, he chats on that "bor"ing site more nowadays, even made a comment about it there a few weeks ago.

 

[jack_package_200]

I am not surprised he was banned. Pretty sure he doing his gimmick in those various OT threads when he really should not have

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/896463243366903808

My heart is in Charlottesville today, and with everyone made to feel unsafe in their country.

My president

 

[nature boy]

Yeah any doubts about his intentions are pretty clear

 

[BlastProcessing]

@JakeSherman
CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) - Officials: White nationalist clashes in Virginia linked to deaths of 2 people aboard crashed helicopter.

What the hell is the story here?

 

[jack_package_200]

Yeah any doubts about his intentions are pretty clear

It comes off like a taunt

 

[Ernest]

Yeah any doubts about his intentions are pretty clear

Trump didn't write that.
It's not his verbiage or cadence at all.

 

[B-Dubs]

@JakeSherman
CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) - Officials: White nationalist clashes in Virginia linked to deaths of 2 people aboard crashed helicopter.

What the hell is the story here?

It's a small helicopter and the Nazis brought rifles and shit. Maybe they saw some bullet holes in the side of the copter.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

This ignores how people adopt the beliefs of their coalition on topics they haven't considered carefully, which is a pretty important part of American politics since our coalitions are so large.

I'm just going to invoke the principle of explosion here and say that if people just adopt whatever transient beliefs their friends have then you can say anything. Talking about schools of thought necessarily should be restricted to "people who have thought about these things". As far as I can tell, there is no alt-right school of thought which has any consistency except maybe racism. But you might as well have just said "the racists".

 

[Teggy]

The NeoReactionary arm of the Alt-Right believes that the Enlightenment was a mistake because it created a false binary choice between Capitalism and Communism. The want to rewind things to the Pre-Enlightenment by destroying most of teh cornerstones of our society. This is why they rail against Universities and why Bannon is trying to burn the government down.

What they want is the return to a feudal system, ideally run by someone like Elon Musk, hence the weird Silicon Valley/Alt Right connection.

Hoo boy, and here I just thought they just wanted to kill all non-white people.


Hey, Dean Heller, don't look now, but you're in a picture with a nazi!

Oh, Breitbart guy, you are about to have quite the ratio on this tweet

Charlie Spiering @charliespiering
Organizers of both groups should ask themselves- was it worth the deaths of three Americans?
7:10 PM · Aug 12, 2017

 

[Suikoguy]

It's a small helicopter and the Nazis brought rifles and shit. Maybe they saw some bullet holes in the side of the copter.

I don't recall any reports of gunfire.

 

[Valhelm]

yeah fuck that woman for having the gall to stand in front of a white terorrist's car

 

[Diablos]

Is it just me or does Heller look like he is drunk all the damn time

 

[TheAbsolution]

We're well past dumpster fire at this point.

The dumpster fire that leads to an underground coal vein

We're at the Centralia levels of fire at this point lmao.

 

[B-Dubs]

I don't recall any reports of gunfire.

I'm just spitballing. We'll find out when the NTSB report comes out.

We're at the Centralia levels of fire at this point lmao.

I was thinking more the Gates of Hell in Turkmenistan:

 

[Diablos]

We're at the Centralia levels of fire at this point lmao.

And to think it's still a young presidency

 

[Teggy]

Wow, McCauliffe made Trump look like a total idiot. (I mean a worse one than usual )

 

[Wilsongt]

Obama never called it radical islamic terror, why should Trump call it radical white terrorism?

🤔🤔🤔🤔

 

[ErichWK]

I'm glad CNN is calling it a white Nationalist rally.

 

[The Technomancer]

Nobody seems to know what socialism is anymore except the paranoid conservatives. Fascism is socialism. Mussolini and Hitler were avowed anti corporatists. There was no separation between private enterprise and the national enterprise. It's why total war was even conceivable. Racial populism and socialism are hard to separate, too, historically. Even if socialism has existed with racial liberalism and equality it has not always been that way and does not necessitate it in the slightest. There are vast swaths of the United States that would be happy to live in a nationalist, socialist country: anti-immigrant, blood and soil, workers rights, pro-infrastructure, anti-rich, anti-black national unity (for those that are part of the proper American race). I remember reading "Damn the Republicans!" in Grapes of Wrath.

It's all pretty cohesive, really. Unity, community, our-people above all else. The businesses cannot be separate from the state. The people cannot be separate from one another - and as the different races cannot ever be together, there can only be one race in the nation. The bourgeousie cannot be separate from the proletariat. Our ideas cannot be separate from the norm. It is the arrogant, managerial state, the overwrought moralism, the James Burnham nightmare.

I do not disagree that fascism can play quite nicely with some forms of socialism but eh...you know what, I'll have to come back to this, I'm not sure how to word my thoughts now

EDIT: as touched on above I think there's a much larger topic about the different forms socialism can take, some of them in ways we don't like, that doesn't happen very often because of how firmly modern socialist movements try to commit themselves to....not-fascism. Which is a good thing! Obviously! This is just a larger part of my whole "beware the blind spots, don't assume everyone is working from the same premise as you" thing

 

[Ryuuroden]

Well, at least trump is finally having some crises not self inflicted. By that, I mean, ones that started off not directly from him, obviously both times so far he has caused self inflicted within 24 hours. Does not bode well for the future, but frankly, not surprising either.

 

[jack_package_200]

I really hope Trump's actions today cause a sizable hit in his approval polls.

 

[B-Dubs]

I really hope Trump's actions today cause a sizable hit in his approval polls.

What's left for him to lose? The Nazis?

 

[Random Human]

I really hope Trump's actions today cause a sizable hit in his approval polls.

As long as it doesn't go up...

 

[Suikoguy]

I'm all for some type of change to the constitution to exclude hate speech from free speech. Would need considerable work to be worded in such a way as to not be abused.

But honestly, the bigger concern is a political system that allowed the election of a President who sees little problem in such groups and their actions.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I'm glad CNN is calling it a white Nationalist rally.

They should be calling it a nazi rally or white supremacist rally, nothing else.

I'm all for some type of change to the constitution to exclude hate speech from free speech. Would need considerable work to be worded in such a way as to not be abused.

But honestly, the bigger concern is a political system that allowed the election of a President who sees little problem in such groups and their actions.

If i were a modern day politician i'd be terrified of putting anything in the constitution that allows the censorship of the media. "Ok lets ban Nazi propaganda" will turn into "MSNBC and the Washington Post are fake news and will be banned from this NATION BLESSED UNDER OUR ONE AND ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD! #MAGA"

I dont know what else to do though, Hard right propaganda clearly pushed republican voters to the right over the last 20 years, and republicans choose to just move to the right with them rather than trying to reign them in and keep them sane, now things have gotten so bad that we have Trump as president and the KKK feels so emboldened that they dont even wear their hoods anymore.

 

[skullmuffins]

Would need considerable work to be worded in such a way as to not be abused.

Very considerable. An administration that apparently cannot bring itself to condemn literal neo-nazis would not hesitate for a second to criminalize eg Black Lives Matter rhetoric as hate speech against cops.

 

[Teggy]

Lady Gaga started a #ThisIsNotUS hashtag and the results have been quite interesting (basically most saying hey, you haven't been paying attention if you think this isn't America)

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

Wait the nazi scum shot down the police chopper?

 

[B-Dubs]

Wait the nazi scum shot down the police chopper?

Dunno yet, wait for more reports.

 

[pigeon]

Lady Gaga started a #ThisIsNotUS hashtag and the results have been quite interesting (basically most saying hey, you haven't been paying attention if you think this isn't America)

I don't love this response, honestly, because it's very important to distinguish between theory and practice. People often celebrate America as they believe it should be. Responding by critiquing what America actually is is really talking at cross purposes.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Wait the nazi scum shot down the police chopper?

I don't think anyone knows what's going on with that right now.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I'm all for some type of change to the constitution to exclude hate speech from free speech. Would need considerable work to be worded in such a way as to not be abused.

It is already illegal to utter "fighting words" under federal law. How much farther do you want to go?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I turn on CNN and I see David Gergen talking about what Trump should do, how he could turn it around, and I'm thinking when the fuck are these people gonna take the gloves off? He's irredeemable human trash, just say that already. Make it your goddamn mantra.

 

[callhitman]

I'm all for some type of change to the constitution to exclude hate speech from free speech. Would need considerable work to be worded in such a way as to not be abused.

But honestly, the bigger concern is a political system that allowed the election of a President who sees little problem in such groups and their actions.

I may not agree with them but I support there rights. The problem I see now and I hate to say it, but the left extreme is encouraging vilonce. These racists used to be local news only and laughed at. Now these guys get front page because counter protesters have a larger group most times and a mob mentality. And sad thing is everyone wants to see a fight break out.

 

[Fox318]

Man I feel like every day goes by i just wind up asking myself the same thing.

What the fuck is going on?

This has to be what the 60s were like

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Lady Gaga started a #ThisIsNotUS hashtag and the results have been quite interesting (basically most saying hey, you haven't been paying attention if you think this isn't America)

Sounds about right.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

I don't love this response, honestly, because it's very important to distinguish between theory and practice. People often celebrate America as they believe it should be. Responding by critiquing what America actually is is really talking at cross purposes.

NotMyUS would've been better.

If I didn't have patriotism for theoretical actually living up to its values America I wouldn't give a shit about the country at all.

 

[jtb]

It's the same fundamental problem with "America is already great." Clearly not.