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Kong: Skull Island Director Takes on Cinema Sins

If you want to make the case for how they are ruining film criticism you do you. The response you will get from most people who watch the videos is "they aren't reviews". There's really no other way that conversation goes as this thread shows.

If you say "I don't find this funny" then well, there's also not a lot to say there is it?

I think saying why they aren't funny or how the format fails at being funny it's interesting. The director even expanded on that later in his tweets.

I just don't think the dialogue of "they are bad film critics" goes anywhere because it's a comedy series.

People have been pointing out that they ignore details and change facts so they can twist the movie to fit their joke instead of writing better jokes. And then people say "lol who cares, it's just jokes." Case in point: That iRobot sin which isn't even a joke.

I think there's a lot to discuss.
 

yuoke

Banned
If people want to say that nothing is CS is supposed to be taken seriously, none of their criticisms are supposed to be valid and the whole thing's a joke about being extremely nitpicky, fine (I disagree, but we'll go with it for now). I'll argue then that the joke is bad, that it's lazy, one note, poorly conceived, executed and edited, that there's some weirdly off putting sexist bullshit in there mixed in with tossed off, half thought through one liners that don't build to anything. I would furthermore compare it to something like MST3K which also does a "riff" on movies, but does so with well thought out, well written jokes that aren't simply "hey, there's a cliche!" but are actually creative in their own right.

However, that's not really what supporters of CS think. They'll say "don't take it seriously", but then they'll defend the criticisms of films CS makes. And then if you take issues with any of the criticisms, they'll say "no, they're just having fun."

Personally, I think CS is both bad criticism and bad comedy. It's neither funny nor insightful. I think it's trying to be humorous while also making valid critiques of movies, and I think it fails massively at both.

Having said that, my post was intended to say that even if I meet defenders halfway and just say "fine, it's just pure comedy, let's ignore the poor quality of the criticism," it still doesn't hold up.
Who is "they" though? The majority of people here have said that there is no issue if you don't find CS funny at all. They have an issue with the level of seriousness this is taken to. There is criticism of comedy...then there is taking it to the level of saying that CS is actually hurting the industry.
 
Cinema Sins as a "comedy series" is on the level of JUST A PRANK BRO videos. Except stretched to 40 minutes.

They're terrible and their reign of tyranny must end.
 

kiguel182

Member
The discourse here about movies does descend in nitpicking really often. Is definetly a problem.

I remember the Life topic where a lot of complains where "why does the Alien do this?" and it was a mixture of things that might make sense and others that you just have to go with it. There's a certain suspense of disbelief you have to engage with or nothing is enjoyable to you.

The thing is those people are entirely serious when they nitpick and these dudes know they are being assholes about it for comedic effect.
I think that self awareness is important to point out.
 
I mean...this is one sin...literally one sin that has been quoted how many times?

I could screenshot tons of jokes to counter point this, but it should be very obvious.
The director of Kong pointed out a whole bunch though. We can quote those instead I guess?
 

kiguel182

Member
People have been pointing out that they ignore details and change facts so they can twist the movie to fit their joke instead of writing better jokes. And then people say "lol who cares, it's just jokes." Case in point: That iRobot sin which isn't even a joke.

I think there's a lot to discuss.

I agree with you. And I do think there's a lot to discuss.

I think the director of the movie made a great point when it comes to edit it down. I think they seem to leave nothing on the cutting room floor and go with quantity instead of quality. Making a 20 minute video is too much most of the time. And it feels like throwing all the jokes to see what sticks.
 

yuoke

Banned
Cinema Sins as a "comedy series" is on the level of JUST A PRANK BRO videos. Except stretched to 40 minutes.

They're terrible and their reign of tyranny must end.

297.png
 

JCHandsom

Member
I just don't think the dialogue of "they are bad film critics" goes anywhere because it's a comedy series.

They're bad film critics because they engage in bad film criticism. They misinterpret films, miss context, put their mistakes next to obvious jokey-jokes and actual honest-to-god issues with the film, throw them up in the air a la 52 pickup and claim it's all nonsense anyways, which is an intellectually dishonest thing to do when you are actually trying to criticize a film at the same time.

They're a comedy channel that critiques films. Poorly, on both fronts.
 

tomtom94

Member
The thing is those people are entirely serious when they nitpick and these dudes know they are being assholes about it for comedic effect.
I think that self awareness is important to point out.
Knowingly being an asshole doesn't make you any less of an asshole.

Particularly when you claim to be making a list of things wrong with a film that is full of shit that is explained in the film. Or outright manipulative editing.
 
I just don't think the dialogue of "they are bad film critics" goes anywhere because it's a comedy series.

But it's also film criticism.

You guys: Comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum, and its presence as an element (even the primary element) of criticism isn't this weird shield you keep assuming it is.

You guys are invoking Comedy like it's a defense spell against criticism and that's not how it works. It's never how it's worked. This is a lesson many children learn in elementary school when they say something stupid and pointless and they get checked on it.

"I was just joking" is an excuse that holds less water than a single sheet of generic paper towel rammed under a sink with the taps opened full blast.

It's a comedy film criticism series. Its comedy depends on hammering at the single lowest form of film criticism there is for 20 straight minutes with sound effects going every 30 seconds. Its criticism is poor, and its comedy is just as poor.

You can't extricate the one from the other and suggest it stands up on its own merits like that.

If you like Cinema Sins, you like it because

1) Nitpicking is funny to you
2) Criticism is stupid to you
3) You seek out entertainment options where "I don't give a fuck" is the ideal achievable state.

That is the bar Cinema Sins aims at.

It is criticism for people who hate criticism

Either you're willing to own this or you've spent the last 14 pages trying to equivocate.
 
The discourse here about movies does descend in nitpicking really often. Is definetly a problem.

I remember the Life topic where a lot of complains where "why does the Alien do this?" and it was a mixture of things that might make sense and others that you just have to go with it. There's a certain suspense of disbelief you have to engage with or nothing is enjoyable to you.

The thing is those people are entirely serious when they nitpick and these dudes know they are being assholes about it for comedic effect.
I think that self awareness is important to point out.

Comparing an online discussion forum with a YouTube video series now?



Well memed, youngster.
 

yuoke

Banned
But it's also film criticism.

You guys: Comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum, and its presence as an element (even the primary element) of criticism isn't this weird shield you keep assuming it is.

You guys are invoking Comedy like it's a defense spell against criticism and that's not how it works. It's never how it's worked. This is a lesson many children learn in elementary school when they say something stupid and pointless and they get checked on it.

"I was just joking" is an excuse that holds less water than a single sheet of generic paper towel rammed under a sink with the taps opened full blast.

It's a comedy film criticism series. Its comedy depends on hammering at the single lowest form of film criticism there is for 20 straight minutes with sound effects going every 30 seconds. Its criticism is poor, and its comedy is just as poor.

You can't extricate the one from the other and suggest it stands up on its own merits like that. It doesn't.

If you like Cinema Sins, you like it because

1) Nitpicking is funny to you
2) Criticism is stupid to you
3) You seek out entertainment options where "I don't give a fuck" is the ideal achievable state.

That is the bar Cinema Sins aims at.

It is criticism for people who hate criticism

Either you're willing to own this or you've spent the last 14 pages trying to equivocate.
It's only the first one for me. I don't hate criticism, and I don't find everything about not giving a fuck as automatically funny. I just find overly nitpicking everything to sometimes be kind of funny. That's it.
 

JCHandsom

Member
The thing is those people are entirely serious when they nitpick and these dudes know they are being assholes about it for comedic effect.
I think that self awareness is important to point out.

That would be fine (well, I consider being an ironic asshole the same as being a regular old asshole, but that's me), but for the umpteenth time the CS guys have serious criticisms in their videos. They try to cover for it by making jokes in an effort to head off legitimate counter-arguments with "It's just a joke!", which, again, is intellectually dishonest.
 

kiguel182

Member
That would be fine (well, I consider being an ironic asshole the same as being a regular old asshole, but that's me), but for the umpteenth time the CS guys have serious criticisms in their video. They try to cover for it by making jokes in an effort to head off legitimate counter-arguments with "It's just a joke!", which, again, is intellectually dishonest.

It is a bit yes. That is mostly a problem more recently where he keeps jumping the line between the initial "commenting on nitpicks" concept and some more commentary on the actual videos.

I think editing things to make a point like they do is definetly dumb as is the current format they use. The videos sometimes don't know what they want to be at points.
 

p2535748

Member
Who is "they" though? The majority of people here have said that there is no issue if you don't find CS funny at all. They have an issue with the level of seriousness this is taken to. There is criticism of comedy...then there is taking it to the level of saying that CS is actually hurting the industry.

I'm perusing the first page, and there's a mix of people saying "it's comedy" with people saying "they're right," so "they" is the people in this thread who are defending the content of the CS videos. Many of them (on here and twitter) will say "it's just for laughs" but then defend the critiques that CS makes.

Furthermore, as Bobby Roberts has pointed out numerous times, just because it's comedy does not mean that the subject of that comedy is free from criticism. It's comedy film criticism, and it's perfectly right to say "the film criticism behind this comedy is shit." It reminds me somewhat of a anecdote about Douglas Adams, where he criticized much of modern comedy as being based in ignorance. He used as an example the old airplane "black box" joke (i.e. "If the black box is the only thing that survives, why not make the whole plane out of the black box?"). That's a terrible, lazy joke, because it's just based on a lack of understanding on the joke tellers part, and that's not really very funny. Similarly, the CS humor is just based on their poor understanding and ignorance about how films work, and both the laziness of their humor and their ignorance of what they're talking about are valid discussion avenues.

As for why I have an actual problem with them, let me quote an earlier post I made:

It's not so much that Cinema Sins is itself a big deal, it's that what it's symptomatic of is an incredibly common and frustrating form of film criticism on the internet. It's a form of criticism that prioritizes discussing plot holes or inconsistencies more than discussing character, plot, tone or theme. It's a form of criticism that tries to come up with an objective way to tell if a movie is good or not but has no actual understanding of what makes films work.

And yes, I'm sure people will say I'm taking this too seriously, but it's an epidemic on the internet and Cinema Sins is (possibly) the most popular expression of it.
 

Rogan

Banned
Jordan must have a hard life. It's satire dude.

Usually it's 50/50 with Cinema Sins. It's fun seeing movies getting destroyed but it's pretty unnecessary to me.

I do like HISHE for example, they also point out flaws but in a more divers and funny way.
 
Jordan must have a hard life. It's satire dude.

Usually it's 50/50 with Cinema Sins. It's fun seeing movies getting destroyed but it's pretty unnecessary to me.

I do like HISHE for example, they also point out flaws but in a more divers and funny way.

How is it satire? What is it satirizing?
 
That's not an out.

Just because you call yourself an asshole doesn't mean I can't criticize you for being one.

It started out light and fun and turned into movie SparkNotes that now enable people to say "phew, glad I didn't waste my money watching that piece of shit" (as if they had anything better to do).

If that what people get out of CS they are missing the point. Like watching a Three Stooges movie and commenting on human violence because they get slapped and bonk heads etc.
 
Jordan must have a hard life. It's satire dude.

Usually it's 50/50 with Cinema Sins. It's fun seeing movies getting destroyed but it's pretty unnecessary to me.

I do like HISHE for example, they also point out flaws but in a more divers and funny way.
But what is the satire about misrepresenting a movie to make jokes that make no sense. Where is the satire in mixing up characters or complaining about plot points that are explained in the next scene?

The issue is not that he is making fun of the movie or pointing out flaws. It is that he points things out that don't even make sense and just straight up makes errors in his criticism.
 

kiguel182

Member
I don't think satire is a good descriptions. They aren't commenting on nitpicking or movie critics.

It's really just nitpicking and making jokes about it. Satire isn't really a good descriptor I don't think.

Edit: when they misrepresent a movie is definetly a blunder since it breaks their loosely defined rules. Its not that common but when it happens they usually get called on it. I don't think they do it often, but when they do is definetly annoying.
 

JCHandsom

Member
Jordan must have a hard life. It's satire dude.

Usually it's 50/50 with Cinema Sins. It's fun seeing movies getting destroyed but it's pretty unnecessary to me.

I do like HISHE for example, they also point out flaws but in a more divers and funny way.

It's like whack-a-mole here...

Just take a cursory glance at some of the other posts to see that

1. Comedy can be bad and be criticized for being bad
2. Comedy and film criticism are not mutually exclusive and CS is definitely trying to be both
3. It's intellectually dishonest to put criticisms in your videos only to try and obfuscate them by claiming it's all nonsense jokey-jokes, when really you were either not paying attention to the film or you were not thinking things through.

Stop crying. They are not supposed to be taken 100% seriously.

Refer to #3
 
Furthermore, as Bobby Roberts has pointed out numerous times, just because it's comedy does not mean that the subject of that comedy is free from criticism.

It's free from the criticism of being taken as a serious critical analysis, because that is not what it is or has ever tried to be. Doing that is just strawmanning.

If wanna criticise the humour and it's worth, fair enough.
 

AoM

Member
They are nitpicking for entertainment.

Stop crying. They are not supposed to be taken 100% seriously.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: they're no longer nitpicks if the nitpicks are clearly wrong. I guess if you like misinformation and someone misinterpreting scenes/characters/etc., chuckle away.
 
If that what people get out of CS they are missing the point. Like watching a Three Stooges movie and commenting on human violence because they get slapped and bonk heads etc.

The white kids I went to high school with missed the point of the Chapelle Show, but that didn't stop them from quoting it at every turn.
 

kiguel182

Member
I'll repeat what I said earlier: they're no longer nitpicks if the nitpicks are clearly wrong. I guess if you like misinformation and someone misinterpreting scenes/characters/etc., chuckle away.

But that isn't most of the stuff he does. I don't want to extrapolate but I think most people don't like when he does that. But it's the minority.
 
This are the "Everything wrong with..." Guys right? I remember watching thier Avengers 2 vid and tapped out at the point where one of their sins was, the Avengers shouldn't have weak members like Hawkeye or Widow. Never looked back.

It's a shame because I'd honestly be interested in videos that point out actual errors that are hard to catch like costume and makeup mistakes from scene to scene.
 

JCHandsom

Member
It's free from the criticism of being taken as a serious critical analysis, because that is not what it is or has ever tried to be.

CS has done actual review-style critiques on his channel where he gives his honest opinion of a film with no gimmicks, and his actual reviews have had the criticisms as their Sin video counterparts. His Age of Ultron review brought up issues he had with the film (issues that were totally resolvable just by paying attention/thinking critically) that later showed up in "Everything Wrong With Avengers Age of Ultron."

Why shouldn't I criticize it as a serious criticism if he makes the same arguments in both his actual reviews as well as his EWW series?
 
I've never been a fan, they nitpick to make their videos longer but it always comes off with an air of being better than the movie. That combined with the fact a lot of what they bring up is taken out of context / debatable in it even being bad makes for lame kind of mean-spirited videos.
 

SeanC

Member
They are nitpicking for entertainment.

Stop crying. They are not supposed to be taken 100% seriously.

Nobody is crying. How about contribute the discussion instead? I feel this is mostly civil.


I see a lot of "it's satire" but I don't really know what it's supposed to be satirizing. I feel that's a fallback deflection. Fine to say "it's comedy" if you want, though I don't quite see the joke or punchlines within the context as it's not done well either way, but it's far from satire.

Don't insult satire, it's one of the most clever and smart forms of comedy out there, difficult to do right on top of that, and CinemaSins is not that.
 
I love some unearned sense of superiority

I mean, it wasn't a great observation to begin with, my guy. You're talking about people nitpicking movies on a discussion forum (entirely serious or not; that's another matter) vs. people doing the same thing, but in video format. The problem is, making these videos for "comedic effect" can and does get mistaken for legit criticism -- especially when they start to get longer and longer, and go from highlighting a few flubs and mistakes here and there to analyzing the entire film for flaws real or otherwise.

And this:

those people are entirely serious when they nitpick and these dudes know they are being assholes about it for comedic effect.

ain't really true. See this thread, for example.
 
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