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[ryutaro's mama]

As I've mentioned a lot, I don't care for The Avengers or Avatar. Neither works for me particularly in terms of quality. I would have made vastly different films.

And what I would've made would probably bottom out far below the end gross for either.

Opinions are fine. It's when people parlay them as fact. There's people here legit asking why TFA was a reboot (It wasn't) or a rehash.

We can debate the films merits for the rest of time, but there's no debating that they made the right choices in terms of the film being a success by their quantifiable standards.

And the same can't be said for the Avengers and Avatar, two films you don't care for?!

One of the main critiques of Avatar was the lack or original story (which I totally agree with) but when similar reasons were presented as to why James Cameron when so safe in a movie about 12 foot Smurfs, that gets massive pushback.

The difference being that Avatar wasn't going into its 7th film. That movie needed initial buy-in with a simple story. If they pulled this shit 7 films in, the wrath would have been well earned.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a more original story within a series like SW. I think you could have hit all of the narrative beats you needed to in TFA without telling such a derivative tale.

 

[y2dvd]

TFA wasn't bad, but it suffered from being a rehash.

 

[Monocle]

TFA wasn't bad, but it suffered from being a rehash.

TFA's approach to keying into nostalgia by having scenes and images reminiscent of the OT makes it uniquely vulnerable to the intellectually lazy armchair heckling that passes for criticism in the nerd community. You don't have to remember contextualizing details when you can belch out "GIRL LUKE, SAND PLANET, VADER RIPOFF, DEATH STAR" and feel your cheeks jiggle from distant bleats of assent.

I think the problem is less that TFA suffers from rehash syndrome (for a general audience the familiar feeling is a major strength) and more that enthusiasts like us suffer from a selective memory and take a ghoulish delight in poking holes in movies that aren't our Favorite Thing.

 

[Principate]

Wow thanks for reminding everyone how much of a little bitch Kylo Ren actually is. Jesus Christ, he got buried hard. Exhaustion or not, there's no way a force user who has actually gotten training should lose to a complete rookie who just learned how to use the force a couple of hours ago.

Not even Vince McMahon has the audacity to do that to something stupid like that. This is like having the face completely destroy the heel on the Raw that take places three weeks before the actual PPV. Like why does anyone even care about Kylo considering we already know he's a bonafide jobber to the stars?

I mean there's no lies in this.


Ren is the biggest jobber this franchise as ever seen and that says a lot considering it's track record with bounty hunters.

 

[120v]

i remember being in the theater watching TFA, looking at my watch a quarter way through the movie, scanning the exit.... then it occurred to me.... i'm sitting here, watching Episode 7 -- Star Wars Episode fucking 7 -- and i'm waiting for it to just wrap up already.

i mean, not bashing the movie per se but it says something about it when even the prequels had me glued to the seat from start to finish

 

[DeathyBoy]

And the same can't be said for the Avengers and Avatar, two films you don't care for?!

One of the main critiques of Avatar was the lack or original story (which I totally agree with) but when similar reasons were presented as to why James Cameron when so safe in a movie about 12 foot Smurfs, that gets massive pushback.

The difference being that Avatar wasn't going into its 7th film. That movie needed initial buy-in with a simple story. If they pulled this shit 7 films in, the wrath would have been well earned.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a more original story within a series like SW. I think you could have hit all of the narrative beats you needed to in TFA without telling such a derivative tale.

I conveyed it badly, but my point was even not caring for Avengers or Avatar I think they absolutely made the right films given the praise and box office.

Armchair quarterbacking is all well and good, until your team wins the season. Then you can be free to discuss quality of performance, but a win is a win. And that's the goal.

 

[Principate]

i remember being in the theater watching TFA, looking at my watch a quarter way through the movie, scanning the exit.... then i it occurred to me.... i'm sitting here, watching Episode 7 -- Star Wars Episode fucking 7 -- and i'm waiting for it to just wrap up already.

i mean, not bashing the movie per se but it says something about the movie when even the prequels had me glued to the seat from start to finish

The film has a weak ending. I remember really enjoying it as I watching through and then lost all enthusiasm by the end. It just all got too ridiculous. Eve for star wars.

 

[Kyoufu]

I mean there's no lies in this.


Ren is the biggest jobber this franchise as ever seen and that says a lot considering it's track record with bounty hunters.

I was really, really bothered by this. They need to make him look strong in TLJ.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

I feel the same about the new star treks. Feels like a fanboys consortium as opposed to something that wants to be its own identity.

What a cop out to just remake the same characters from previous Treks. They created Picard after Kirk and that was fine.

But noo this generation? gotta retread. Cos that's clearly what JJ Abrahams does best, retread.

And a retread will always be more forgettable. As is also evidenced in TFA.

 

[sanstesy]

Boring movie.

 

[Monocle]

I was really, really bothered by this. They need to make him look strong in TLJ.

I thought his Force abilities and huge sizzling lightsaber made him look strong as hell.

Boring movie.

So you were bored. That says next to nothing about the movie.

 

[Cmerrill]

Because it's s a bad movie, and an even worse remake.

Boring, one dimensional characters. Terrible dialogue, lame attempts at humour. Etc etc.

I never made it through a second viewing.

 

[Principate]

I was really, really bothered by this. They need to make him look strong in TLJ.

It's a shame I was quite into him even though he was literally just Anakin part two. Seeing him get outplayed again and again by someone that learnt how to use the force (on their own mind you) seconds before completely destroys any belief in the competence he supposedly had. Even a a straight up draw would be better than having him lose his first major encounter with a newbie, handicapped or not.

I mean death Vader was on life support during all the ot films and was in constant pain. So the he we hurt doesn't even make him look all that much Berger.

 

[Monocle]

Because it's s a bad movie, and an even worse remake.

Boring, one dimensional characters. Terrible dialogue, lame attempts at humour. Etc etc.

I never made it through a second viewing.

This shit is even worse than that thing I was just talking about where people recite a list of context- and detail-free bullet points. This is what spoils movie threads around here.

 

[Wolfe]

Actually just watched the bluray again last night as it had been on my mind recently. Funny thing was I had actually planned on stopping the movie at some point and getting something to eat, except I never found what felt like a good spot and ended up watching it all the way through without pausing. While I don't think it was amazing, I do enjoy the movie and don't have problems rewatching it. Saw it four times while it was in the theater, 3 of them 3D viewings I think, if I ever pick up a PSVR I'll definitely grab the 3D blu to see how it compares.

I enjoyed Rogue One as well although I've only seen it once and it wasn't until it hit netflix. I'll have to watch it again sometime, wouldn't mind buying it actually.

I guess to me TFA, regardless of any of the ways it could have been better, was able to touch on and kind of bring back some of the nostalgia I have for the OT while also being a competent film. I'm not saying it doesn't have faults, just that I still find it enjoyable despite them.

 

[Diprosalic]

I was really, really bothered by this. They need to make him look strong in TLJ.

Kylo was pretty much the only thing TFA did right.

 

[Kyoufu]

Kylo was pretty much the only thing TFA did right.

For me a story needs to nail its villain(s) in order for me to care about the hero as well. In the end I cared for neither.

TLJ needs to be much, much better.

 

[Seesaw15]

It's a shame I was quite into him even though he was literally just Anakin part two. Seeing him get outplayed again and again by someone that learnt how to use the force (on their own mind you) seconds before completely destroys any belief in the competence he supposedly had. Even a a straight up draw would be better than having him lose his first major encounter with a newbie, handicapped or not.

I mean death Vader was on life support during all the ot films and was in constant pain. So the he we hurt doesn't even make him look all that much Berger.

Lol. The dude was shot in the gut and just killed his dad. I can forgive the clearly light/dark side conflicted character for not bringing his A game.

 

[Principate]

Lol. The dude was shot in the gut and just killed his dad. I can forgive the clearly light/dark side conflicted character for not bringing his A game.

Emotional instability is litterally what the dark side is all about it's literally what powers it which is why that point never made sense to me.

 

[CloudWolf]

My big problem with TFA is how it almost completely nullifies everything that happened in the OT without any explanation as to why things are that way.

In what way did The New Republic fail? Who are The First Order and how the hell did they rise to power? In what way is The Resistance different than The Rebellion? Why did every main character of the OT just kinda give up on each other when Ben turned to the Dark Side, wouldn't that bring them more together? Why are Jedi considered a myth in the Universe when 20 years ago a Jedi saved the Universe from The Empire? Hell, less than 50 year before TFA there still was an actual Jedi Order who acted as Galaxy Police, surely people would know about that?

And sure, some of these things have answers in the new EU or will maybe be answered in the coming films, but these are major plot points. I shouldn't be required to read some mediocre novel or wait two years for a sequel to get the basic information needed to make the first films plot believable.

 

[Seesaw15]

Emotional instability is litterally what the dark side is all about it's literally what powers it which is why that point never made sense to me.

Individuals who used the dark side drew their power from darker emotions such as fear, anger, hatred, and aggression.

Kylo was struggling between the light and the dark side the whole movie and after he killed his dad I didn't feel that the light suddenly turned off. He was injured and going through a gambut of emotions. Add this to the fact that Kylo was trying to recruit Rey for 90% of the battle and I'll cut him some slack.

Compare Kylo to Rey who's been set up as a natural in the force and she is just tapping into pure anger during the battle.

 

[Wolfe]

Emotional instability is litterally what the dark side is all about it's literally what powers it which is why that point never made sense to me.

Says who? The Emp would have me believe it was by harnessing hate and anger/rage

I don't think having emotional conflict due to light and dark influences on a person (which Ren said of himself) is what powers the dark side, and that's what he was dealing with.

 

[120v]

My big problem with TFA is how it almost completely nullifies everything that happened in the OT without any explanation as to why things are that way.

In what way did The New Republic fail? Who are The First Order and how the hell did they rise to power? In what way is The Resistance different than The Rebellion? Why did every main character of the OT just kinda give up on each other when Ben turned to the Dark Side, wouldn't that bring them more together? Why are Jedi considered a myth in the Universe when 20 years ago a Jedi saved the Universe from The Empire? Hell, less than 50 year before TFA there still was an actual Jedi Order who acted as Galaxy Police, surely people would know about that?

And sure, some of these things have answers in the new EU or will maybe be answered in the coming films, but these are major plot points. I shouldn't be required to read some mediocre novel or wait two years for a sequel to get the basic information needed to make the first films plot believable.

i think they overreacted to the prequel trilogy's maligned "political stuff" and consciously trimmed out the galaxy's state of affairs as much as possible. just here's the good guys, here's the bad guys.

i could roll with that but some of it you can never really explain away or handwave. like why the resistance is still a fairly ragtag organization. i'd think that'd chafe even a casual fan going from ep 6 to 7

 

[UnemployedVillain]

TFA's approach to keying into nostalgia by having scenes and images reminiscent of the OT makes it uniquely vulnerable to the intellectually lazy armchair heckling that passes for criticism in the nerd community. You don't have to remember contextualizing details when you can belch out "GIRL LUKE, SAND PLANET, VADER RIPOFF, DEATH STAR" and feel your cheeks jiggle from distant bleats of assent.

I think the problem is less that TFA suffers from rehash syndrome (for a general audience the familiar feeling is a major strength) and more that enthusiasts like us suffer from a selective memory and take a ghoulish delight in poking holes in movies that aren't our Favorite Thing.

This also apparently shields it from valid criticisms when they're handwaved as being "intellectually lazy" just because they can't be justified or argued against.

 

[Principate]

Says who? The Emp would have me believe it was by harnessing hate and anger/rage

I don't think having emotional conflict due to light and dark influences on a person (which Ren said of himself) is what powers the dark side, and that's what he was dealing with.

I mean he resolved that conflict by killing his father and going full Darth Vader. You can hardly say he was anything but anger and hate filled beyond that point. The difference between him and Anakin is that Anakin was stopped by Obi wan whereas he jobbed to a total scrub like the massive jobber he is.

You can say he was in conflict with the light side but so was Vader that's literally his entire character and what drives him. Difference is Vader was an intimidating villain and Ren was massive jobber so that the heroes could get a win to close off the story.

 

[Monocle]

This also apparently shields it from valid criticisms when they're handwaved as being "intellectually lazy" just because they can't be justified or argued against.

I haven't seen many valid criticisms of TFA apart from Starkiller Base being too Death Star-ey. A third superweapon planetoid in the same series is a little much.

I mean he resolved that conflict by killing his father and going full Darth Vader. You can hardly say he was anything but anger and hate filled beyond that point. The difference between him and Anakin is that Anakin was stopped by Obi wan whereas he jobbed to a total scrub like the massive job her he is.

You try staving off a frantic lightsaber wielder after getting blasted in the side with a hefty laser gun and killing your dad.

Have you ever been shot? I'm guessing it really sucks a lot. Probably enough to offset your Jedi training in a battle, on account of the agonizing hole in your side.

 

[RyanW]

Kylo was struggling between the light and the dark side the whole movie and after he killed his dad I didn't feel that the light suddenly turned off.

Not the best gif because it doesn't show it fully but that's literally what happens

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I conveyed it badly, but my point was even not caring for Avengers or Avatar I think they absolutely made the right films given the praise and box office.

Ahh...ok. I totally see what you were saying now. I think we both missed each other a bit in the exchange.

 

[Monocle]

Not the best gif because it doesn't show it fully but that's literally what happens

I don't get the symbolism at all! Does the red light mean he's not vegan any more?

 

[RyanW]

I don't get the symbolism at all! Does the red light mean he's not vegan any more?

Truly the darkest path

 

[Principate]

I haven't seen many valid criticisms of TFA apart from Starkiller Base being too Death Star-ey. A third superweapon planetoid in the same series is a little much.


You try staving off a frantic lightsaber wielder after getting blasted in the side with a hefty laser gun and killing your dad.

Have you ever been shot? I'm guessing it really sucks a lot. Probably enough to offset your Jedi training in a battle, on account of the agonizing hole in your side.

We're talking about force users that can have full lightsaber battles on life support. Derive strength from anger and hatred and can (now) defeat people who were previously kicking our ass by attuning with the force.

If he was so injured he shouldn't have beaten finn and driven rey to a corner in the first place.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I haven't seen many valid criticisms of TFA apart from Starkiller Base being too Death Star-ey.

"That doesn't look like anything to me."

For all the threads that have been on this movie, to say that is the only valid criticism is...an interesting take.

 

[JimiNutz]

How many other film series are there that have as many films that you would say are better?

I could see an argument for LOTR but thats still 3 out of 6.

Batman
James Bond
Planet of the Apes
Star Trek

You are right though, they are all pretty hit and miss I guess.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I haven't seen many valid criticisms of TFA apart from Starkiller Base being too Death Star-ey. A third superweapon planetoid in the same series is a little much.

That and the same retread of underdog good guys vs massive bad guy force also irked me. Made me think nothing in the OT had any affect if the Empire had the resources to build an even larger weapon and the good guys were still a small ragtag group of freedom fighters.

 

[Seesaw15]

Not the best gif because it doesn't show it fully but that's literally what happens

Yeah I got the symbolism that Sun going out=Kylo going to Dark Side. It's hard to miss.

If the next two movies never mention Kylo's struggle with the the light side than I'll concede that the battle at the end of TFA makes no sense. Until then I'll continue to read the character as going through the motions of being evil but still being conflicted 5 minutes after killing your dad.

 

[fredrancour]

TFA did the number 1 thing I needed it to do: convince me that hearing words come out of people in star wars films could be enjoyable again. I just wish it'd picked something new to do with its core plot instead of another superweapon-dismantling.

I do genuinely love that Kyle ren

Spoiler

turned out to be a whiny poser Vader-fanboy and not a stone-cold badass though

 

[finowns]

My big problem with TFA is how it almost completely nullifies everything that happened in the OT without any explanation as to why things are that way.

In what way did The New Republic fail? Who are The First Order and how the hell did they rise to power? In what way is The Resistance different than The Rebellion? Why did every main character of the OT just kinda give up on each other when Ben turned to the Dark Side, wouldn't that bring them more together? Why are Jedi considered a myth in the Universe when 20 years ago a Jedi saved the Universe from The Empire? Hell, less than 50 year before TFA there still was an actual Jedi Order who acted as Galaxy Police, surely people would know about that?

And sure, some of these things have answers in the new EU or will maybe be answered in the coming films, but these are major plot points. I shouldn't be required to read some mediocre novel or wait two years for a sequel to get the basic information needed to make the first films plot believable.

Hey! No one wants to hear your nerd community heckling.

That and the same retread of underdog good guys vs massive bad guy force also irked me. Made me think nothing in the OT had any affect if the Empire had the resources to build an even larger weapon and the good guys were still a small ragtag group of freedom fighters.

That's the problem though. An original take on the Star Wars franchise that tells a great story, expands the universe, and adds something to the awesomeness that Star Wars can be.. how difficult would it be to make that movie? You'd need a genius or a madman to do it

 

[Soul_Pie]

My big problem with TFA is how it almost completely nullifies everything that happened in the OT without any explanation as to why things are that way.

In what way did The New Republic fail? Who are The First Order and how the hell did they rise to power? In what way is The Resistance different than The Rebellion? Why did every main character of the OT just kinda give up on each other when Ben turned to the Dark Side, wouldn't that bring them more together? Why are Jedi considered a myth in the Universe when 20 years ago a Jedi saved the Universe from The Empire? Hell, less than 50 year before TFA there still was an actual Jedi Order who acted as Galaxy Police, surely people would know about that?

And sure, some of these things have answers in the new EU or will maybe be answered in the coming films, but these are major plot points. I shouldn't be required to read some mediocre novel or wait two years for a sequel to get the basic information needed to make the first films plot believable.

Yeah, that's something that I really didn't like. The movie seems to go to great, contrived lengths to keep the backstory vague in order to set up a similar conceit as the first Star Wars movie. In my view it also leaves a lot of the development and the victory that occurred in ROTJ feeling quite shallow. In fact, I don't think TFA feels in line with the end of ROTJ at all, that's too much to happen in a short space of time and even then it tests credulity, even for Star Wars. I think the premise for TFA falls short both in terms of originality but also in terms of how they justify things returning almost immediately to the same dynamics of Rebels/Resistance vs Empire/First Order.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Oops, Rick McCallum.

McCallum hasn't been there for like 5 years. Probably more like 7 or 8

Yeah, it isn't though.

But it absolutely is.

See this is kinda what I'm getting at with the CinemaSins/Talking Points part of the program here - people obviously don't have a real firm grasp on the concepts/ideas they're trying to swing at both the movie and (more importantly) the people who like it. It's often very simplistic, superficial and slipshod in terms of analysis & reasoning.

The schism is almost always, in this (neverending, ongoing) conversation regarding "originality/rehash/remake" in Star Wars, a question of whether someone wants to look at the film through the prism of "did it do what it was trying to do and how was it done" vs. "Did I not get what I wanted and how do I hit it for not even attempting the thing I was hoping for."

One avenue leads towards actually reviewing the movie
The other avenue leads towards pouting

The first avenue can lead to a bad review, absolutely. Because you can judge it for what it tried to do and failed
The other avenue is just sour grapes cheap cynical armchair executive bullshit that serves primarily to suggest "If it had just been what I wanted, everyone would have liked it even more."

People seem to not like the idea that millions of people got something they didn't want, and people really, really liked it anyway.

 

[JB1981]

"That doesn't look like anything to me."

This is my favorite new meme

 

[uncelestial]

But it absolutely is.

Nah.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

But it absolutely is.

...

I am just hopefully I see Bobby apply this metric to every film going forward and he employs this exact position when people are discussing "what they should have done" and why "it was a lazy rehash/reuse of a tried and true formula".

I would like to see him defend other oft discussed films with this same vigor.

 

[xeroborn55]

It doesn't hold up with a rewatch. It's a problem with every JJ Abrams movie. It's delightful in the moment but TFA ultimately sucks as a standalone movie.

Really hope Last Jedi avoids the same fate.

Thanks for the link. Thats some of the best film criticism ive ever seen

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Nah.

The idea that you need to find some big societal failing on the part of easily entertained idiots in order to explain why people liked a movie more than you did just kinda feeds into my point regarding the nature of many of these criticisms, criticisms that again, almost all feed into "It's not how I would have done it" as opposed to "Here's why what they did didn't work."

You wouldn't have to spend a lot of time pursuing the sociological what-ifs to explain away not liking the thing if your reasoning for not liking a thing had to do with the thing itself. But instead not liking the thing is based around you, and how you would have rather done the thing if you were in charge.

And indulging some cynical person's misinformed fantasies of being an executive isn't as interesting to me as actually taking the movie for what it is and judging accordingly.

It's way easier (and often much more interesting that way).

But people wanna continually frame the conversation around them instead.

I am just hopefully I see Bobby apply this metric to every film going forward and he employs this exact position when people are discussing "what they should have done" and why "it was a lazy rehash/reuse of a tried and true formula".

I would like to see him defend other oft discussed films with this same vigor.

I do this all the fucking time. What are you even talk—

—is this another weird fucking Avatar thing with you? Is that what you're doing?

Look:

REVIEW THE MOVIE

NOT THE PEOPLE WHO WATCHED IT

The shit ain't hard.

 

[n0razi]

Exaggerated ofcourse real numbers are more like 20.

I dont think I have seen ANY movie more than 5 times... except maybe The 10 Commandments as a kid since they play it every Christimas

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Also, so far as the OP goes (because I've yet to actually weigh in on that part)

I mean - if you don't like a movie, don't watch it again.
If you do like a movie, don't watch it too much.

It's funny that the conversation has turned, inevitably, to the notion of "originality" and "risk" and "newness" when the most original & risky thing anyone could do is to look for the things they feel Star Wars is lacking...

...IN OTHER MOVIES YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED YET

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I do this all the fucking time. What are you even talk—

Kong Skull Island, which made a lot of money and scored a 76% RT. It is true we both didn't like it but by your metric, it did what it set out to do, right?

It should be judged on that, right? It's not about what YOU or I think about what should have been executed on because the proof is in the pudding, right?

And btw, yelling and screaming with bolded letters doesn't make any point. If you want to have a discussion we can do that otherwise, feel free to ignore me.

And indulging some cynical person's misinformed fantasies of being an executive isn't as interesting to me as actually taking the movie for what it is and judging accordingly.

Annnnd plenty of people have done that in these threads WITHOUT saying how they would have done it differently and yet..

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Kong Skull Island, which made a lot of money and scored a 76% RT. It is true we both didn't like it but by your metric, it did what it set out to do, right?.

No, and I explained why I felt it didn't do what it was trying to do very well at all in a couple posts that I'm sure you've read.

You seem to be reductively reducing this to a matter of "well if everyone likes it and you don't then you have to shut up" and that's not even close to the thrust of my argument. My argument is "if you don't like it explain why you don't like it, not why the rest of the world is crazy for feeling differently than you do."

My Kong: Skull Island complaints never once suggested people who dug it are weirdos or "brainwashed" or somehow misguided/mistaken in liking what they liked. They're confined to explaining what I felt about its execution and why I didn't like what Vogt-Roberts was trying to do with his movie.

If you can't explain your opinion without relying primarily on explaining how everyone else is just doing it wrong then you've probably got a weak-ass opinion.

And btw, yelling and screaming with bolded letters doesn't make any point.

Again: I've never seen a group of people so fuckin' perturbed by text formatting in my life. Miss me if you wanna miss me, Ryu, Ignore button is a useful and often necessary feature in communities. I don't really care if I hit that filter with you or not. But I'm not "yelling and screaming" at you.

Jesus Christ you fuckin' kids.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

My argument is "if you don't like it explain why you don't like it, not why the rest of the world is crazy for feeling differently than you do."

But Bobby, you realize that there are a ton of people, across several SW threads that discuss the parts of TFA that didn't work (in detail) for them based on the movie we got and WITHOUT saying what they would have done differently, right?

For a lot of people, the movie as constructed didn't completely work. In my mind, that in no different than the issues you had with Kong.

 

[Roders5]

You know what, as fun as these movie threads are and all, I don't believe I've ever seen anyone actually change their mind. Like ever. Are we all just wasting our time?