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[Ephidel]

99% of gaffers would bang hot young Hollywood actresses if they had the chance. It's very hard to say no when you are a creator producer who every aspiring actor wants to sleep with.

If this is meant to be a "defense" of his actions it's a lousy one.
If it were true it would say terrible things about 99% of gaffers, and if you actually believe it to be true it says nothing good about you.

So cheating on a partner makes you a fake feminist? Well I have a bad news for you...
By the way, it's ok to condemn the man for what he allegedly did but why condemn the ideas he tries to express?

Because the ideas he tried to express run in direct opposition to the way he apparently acted.

If someone's outward appearance is as a ally to women, writing strong female characters and being associated with feminism, and they run with that, that's one thing.
If that's just their "public face" and in turns out that in private that same person is capable of being incredibly shitty to the women in their lives it suggests that their public face is less than sincere.
And if someone has made a career out of views they don't actually hold, or aren't entirely sincere about, that means I can no longer view the ideas they espouse as an accurate reflection of their true thoughts and feelings. It also makes them somewhat of a hypocrite.

If I condemn him for his actions, I must also condemn him for the fact that he didn't believe the ideas he expressed, because that is a blow to everyone who does actually have them. They deserve better than being tainted by association.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No that is infedelity.

And abuse of power. Infidelity is irrelevant to the people who he had sex with who work underneath him.

 

[rachste]

I definitely believe her, and it's really not that surprising. Cheating in Hollywood is nothing new. We all know that.

 

[The_Kid]

If she waited 15 years to say something like she claims she did, I'd take it less as a grain of salt. If she was an "angrt ex-wife" we'd probably have heard her story much earlier than now.


Also a lot of "yes he cheated and is a jerk but-" going on in this thread. Yikes.

 

[BackLogJoe]

I'm confused. Is she accusing him of abuse by saying she has PTSD?

 

[lightskintwin]

Yes, and she explains how he's a hypocrite by using systems and power-relations that he publicly criticizes for his selfish reasons. Boiling down her argument to "he cheated on me" makes it easier to dismiss it but it isn't actually what she's saying.

It's what she spends most of her blog post on though.

Also "he never conceded the hypocrisy of being out in the world preaching feminist ideals, while at the same time, taking away my right to make choices for my life and my body based on the truth" Is the connection she's making with infidelity and feminism.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

yeah, i mean routinely talking about feminism while apparently cheating on his wife for, i guess, most of their marriage(???), doesn't mean he's a bad feminist! he still believes women should be equal, 'cept for his wife whom he lied to for 15 years but wanted to keep her around because he liked her as a person. she just wasn't as hot as all those starlets he wanted nothing to do with outside a sexual relationship.

(and apparently she wasn't even enough emotionally because she mentions inappropriate emotional relationships too, which is like, why even keep lying to his wife other than he just wanted the comfort of having her around when no one else was??)

Cheating is complicated. It's usually a distorted reality of dependence which is why they will never tell their partner because they still mean something to them. It looks disrespectful because he's being disrespectful to his wife but his distorted intentions do have meaning to him and they might not be out of hate for women.

 

[danthefan]

I definitely believe her, and it's really not that surprising. Cheating in Hollywood is nothing new. We all know that.

It's really, really not limited to Hollywood. Regular people do it all the time.

 

[fanboi]

If she waited 15 years to say something like she claims she did, I'd take it less as a grain of salt. If she was an "angrt ex-wife" we'd probably have heard her story much earlier than now.


Also a lot of "yes he cheated and is a jerk but-" going on in this thread. Yikes.

What is so yikes about it?

 

[border]

I don't really think this makes him a hypocrite -- I'm sure plenty of notable feminists have had prior infidelities.

I've enjoyed all his television work and will continue to do so. Looking forward to Batgirl, but his work in film has not been all that hot.

 

[Staccat0]

Feminists can cheat.

 

[Syriel]

99% of gaffers would bang hot young Hollywood actresses if they had the chance. It's very hard to say no when you are a creator producer who every aspiring actor wants to sleep with.

Sounds like something Nick Robinson would say.

 

[borghe]

Human acting human. I see nothing wrong here. Sure he didn’t respect the marriage and she didn’t deserve that, but it’s none of our damn business and nowhere does it sound like he was inappropriate or even misogynistic or sexist. He screwed up his marriage and now his wife is bitter and pissed. Understandable but I don’t see how this warrants news. Move on, learn from the mistakes and keep living.

 

[Kinyou]

She states that he had sex with people working on Buffy. That is abuse.

How about we let the people he slept with actually make that accusation first before jumping to a conclusion?

 

[DeathyBoy]

This is the way these there's always go. GAF will always, always take whatever the accusation actually is and ramp it up tenfold.

The standards this forum tends to hold people to is laughable. He cheated, it's a shitty thing to do but honestly so fucking what. We all have more important things to worry about.

Dude was running a show about an empowered woman who refuted patriarchalism while he was sleeping with female employees and fans of said show.

He was literally abusing his position.

Ya know, the same way an eighteen year old college student sleeping with her professor is frowned upon. Even if there's consent by a normal metric, it's still an abuse of power.

 

[FloweryMarston]

it doesn't mean that his ideas are bad or anything, but it does come off as a hypocrite to be in a moral high ground and do this do his wife for so long.

 

[lightskintwin]

Except there is an inherent abuse of power for having sex with your underlings. AND having sex with fans.

Ok, I can agree to that in theory and it's a conflict of interest work wise, however that's far different than actual Abuse which may've or may not occurred, but the wife didn't accuse him of that.

 

[The_Kid]

What is so yikes about it?

Because most of the time when someone cheats on someone for years and years with people who are under him in the business, GAF is usually not so quick to say "it isn't that bad."

 

[nickinerdface]

no one is accusing him of rape. there is an area between consent and not-consent. there is a grey area, that gets abused by men and they get away with it because it's not a "crime" so it's okay. exploiting that grey area is a shitty thing to do, and that's exactly what whedon was doing. and even if he did rape, it's not like it would be enough to end his career, lol.

why do the majority of men see the world in such black and white?

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Not surprised that Whedon's bonafides as a feminist don't hold up to scrutiny. Watching Buffy and Angel recently, it's easy to see many cracks. Yes, Buffy is a physically strong female lead (and is made so by supernatural powers.) But emotionally, she definitely gets hung up on men a ton in the show; not to mention scenes peppered in where guys, even the otherwise straight-laced Angel, gawk at women at weird times.

I too would bang Charisma Carpenter. But I won't do it behind my wife's back. Get the divorce and do this shit if It's a "disease"

I don't know if this is what's alleged, but that would be extra crazy considering there's a part in Angel where Cordelia has a breakdown and leaves her acting career because she is sexually exploited by a director.

Also, I get what you're saying, but be aware of the power dynamic here. What you're implying, even if unintentional, is that you'd sleep with someone who you have a ton of power and influence over -- if only it weren't for that pesky wife. A director, or any boss, sleeping with an employee is never cool.

 

[Kinyou]

no one is accusing him of rape. there is an area between consent and not-consent. there is a grey area, that gets abused by men and they get away with it because it's not a "crime" so it's okay. exploiting that grey area is a shitty thing to do, and that's exactly what whedon was doing. and even if he did rape, it's not like it would be enough to end his career, lol.

why do the majority of men see the world in such black and white?

But we don't even know if this was in the grey area. Saying "he's in a position of power = abuse" is seeing the world in black and white.

 

[fanboi]

Because most of the time when someone cheats on someone for years and years with people who are under him in the business, GAF is usually not so quick to say "it isn't that bad."

Ah, yeah.

 

[lightskintwin]

no one is accusing him of rape. there is an area between consent and not-consent. there is a grey area, that gets abused by men and they get away with it because it's not a "crime" so it's okay. exploiting that grey area is a shitty thing to do, and that's exactly what whedon was doing. and even if he did rape, it's not like it would be enough to end his career, lol.

why do the majority of men see the world in such black and white?

I agree

Why can't people also see that powers of position can often make men look more attractive and become more desirable?

It is indeed gray and not just black and white.

 

[Crankshaft]

Feminists can cheat.

Yeah I don't see how cheating makes him not a feminist.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

how does prostitution tie into the discussion about joss whedon? is whedon giving better parts to the employees he sleeps with the transaction, so they're prostituting themselves for better parts versus regular prostitution when it's just money? and then what about the fans he's supposedly slept with, what did they get out of the transaction? not sure how prostitution relates to this situation admittedly lol, especially since you seem to be using it as a defense.

This argument is about the young actresses he supposedly slept with, not groupies. If the argument is that he is in the wrong to engage in sexual relations with anybody over whom he has power, even if they are the initiators of said interaction, how can the same argument not be applied to situations of prostitution, given money is a form of power and is significantly more fundamental to daily existence than getting cast in/working on something?

Simply put, availing yourself of opportunities open to you as the result of the accrual of power and reputation (i.e. fucking hot women on your set who throw themselves at you) is different than actively using your power to generate exploitative relationships with others. That he was married means the act was still shitty, but it was a much more banal, personal form of shittiness, not shittiness that has any particular societal ramifications if multiplied en masse, assuming a charitable interpretation of events.

 

[dead souls]

Zero surprise here. Whedon's feminism has always come off to me a mixture of him trying too hard and his deluded fans reading the fact that his shows were slightly more progressive than current shows at the time as something more important than it was. Plus there's been rumors over the years like how he treated Charisma Carpenter on Angel and so on.

Be wary of any man loudly preaching feminism is a good rule of thumb to live by.

 

[Alienous]

Doesn't seem to have anything to do with feminism. He found himself in a situation where his urges got the better of them, but they'd arguably get the better of most people. Doesn't have anything to do with equal rights between genders. Not sure why it's being aired out openly.

 

[danthefan]

no one is accusing him of rape. there is an area between consent and not-consent. there is a grey area, that gets abused by men and they get away with it because it's not a "crime" so it's okay. exploiting that grey area is a shitty thing to do, and that's exactly what whedon was doing. and even if he did rape, it's not like it would be enough to end his career, lol.

why do the majority of men see the world in such black and white?

You have no idea if that's what Whedon was doing it not. Nor do I, or anyone on this thread.

 

[TurnipFritters]

In Joss's defense, he was pretty bad at being a feminist even without the serial cheating.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

no one is accusing him of rape. there is an area between consent and not-consent. there is a grey area, that gets abused by men and they get away with it because it's not a "crime" so it's okay. exploiting that grey area is a shitty thing to do, and that's exactly what whedon was doing. and even if he did rape, it's not like it would be enough to end his career, lol.

why do the majority of men see the world in such black and white?

"exploiting" is key here. that makes it black, not grey. who did he exploit? i get he was a producer and slept with people but you said exploited. that connotes intent.

maybe i missed the part but it's not described as exploitation.

 

[Jest Chillin]

As an aside, if I were Joss, and Cole is lying or at least stretching the truth to a harmful degree, I wouldn't want to stay silent. I would at least make a statement. Staying silent is going to hurt your kids and career a lot more than saying something in public.

Staying silent, at least to me, says to me that it is truth if not partially true.

Joss stands very little to gain by starting a public argument about this. People have already decided how they feel and disputing Kai Cole's account absolutely would be looked at as attacking her.

Regardless of the how much of her account is 100% gospel truth, it's clear she's been through a lot of emotional trauma and debating this publically just puts her through more. It also adds to the pile of crap the kids have to go through. And for those that don't like Joss either because of this or for other reasons, it would add fuel to the fire.

 

[AlimNassor]

I like how Gaf suddenly rushes to slander him based off hearsay. Like he's the worst person in the world based off what? What proof? If alls said and true he's a terrible person. But, what proof does she have? Why do we take her word on the spot?

 

[PersonAndStuff]

That really is too bad. He still makes good stuff and means well but, assuming it's true, he's a very flawed person.

 

[Mighty Chin]

And abuse of power. Infidelity is irrelevant to the people who he had sex with who work underneath him.

Willing participants. Show me he forced women to have sex with him and I'll agree with you. If you can't then you're talking out of your ass.

I've had sex with two superiors in my life. My job was never in jeopardy because of it.

 

[lawnchair]

Cheaters are terrible people.

thank you for handing down this judgment o lord.

may we overcome our sins and become clean as thou art.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Willing participants. Show me he forced women to have sex with him and I'll agree with you. If you can't then you're talking out of your ass.

I've had sex with two superiors in my life. My job was never in jeopardy because of it.

You do understand that a superior who has sex with an underling with consent is still abusing their power, yes? And could get fired for it?

 

[dead souls]

I like how Gaf suddenly rushes to slander him based off hearsay. Like he's the worst person in the world based off what? What proof? If alls said and true he's a terrible person. Cheaters are terrible people. But, what proof does she have? Why do we take her word on the spot?

Can you really slander someone who made Dollhouse?

 

[danthefan]

Willing participants. Show me he forced women to have sex with him and I'll agree with you. If you can't then you're talking out of your ass.

I've had sex with two superiors in my life. My job was never in jeopardy because of it.

You're a victim.

/GAF

 

[A-V-B]

However true or not true it is (I have no idea,) the way it's described makes Joss seem kinda like Walter White. Which is certainly interesting.

"I didn't do it for the family. I did it for me."

 

[lightskintwin]

thank you for handing down this judgment o lord.

LOL It's always nonsense whenever I hear that.

I've cheated before and have had girlfriends cheat on me, it doesn't make me or them terrible people. Just a terrible thing that violated our trust within a monogamous relationship.

 

[Volimar]

How is having sex with fans abuse? If I had sex with Karen Gillan she'd be abusing me?

 

[AlimNassor]

thank you for handing down this judgment o lord.

Why be rude to me? What did I even do? I want proof. if theres proof I'll condemn him but, I'm not going to rush to the condemn a man based off hearsay.

Can you really slander someone who made Dollhouse?

never seen Dollhouse.

 

[lightskintwin]

How is having sex with fans abuse? If I had sex with Karen Gillan she'd be abusing me?

I have no idea. I guess they're still using the power/fame dynamic argument here too.

 

[border]

You do understand that a superior who has sex with an underling with consent is still abusing their power, yes?

Sometimes you just strike up relationships with the people you work with, and they happen to outrank you (or you outrank them). Whether you can get fired for it will vary greatly from workplace to workplace.

If there were something incredibly nefarious about Whedon's infidelity, I don't think she would have characterized his extramarital relationships as "affairs". The word tends to connote some kind of emotional or romantic component.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Not shocked at all.

Yea.

Don't meet your heroes, folks.

 

[nickinerdface]

i'm not really up to explaining feminism 101 to y'all, but you should go read the nick robinson thread to get some context for why a dude going on about how he's a feminist/woke but then uses his fame to try and sleep with women can be bad. only whedon is mainstream famous and was cheating on his wife REPEATEDLY for 15 years, which is kindaaa worse lol.

 

[The_Kid]

I think the claims of feminism have more to do with him supposedly using it as an excuse to get close to women. "I just hang around with women because I'm just a big raging feminist, oh no I slept with them."

It definitely calls into question the merits of that claim, yeah.

 

[SilentRob]

This just strengthens me in my believe that he is secretely Notch.

 

[danthefan]

You do understand that a superior who has sex with an underling with consent is still abusing their power, yes? And could get fired for it?

You don't seem to even contemplate that a normal, healthy, 100% consensual sexual relationship can exist between people who aren't at the same career level. Well, it can.

 

[Zolo]

i'm not really up to explaining feminism 101 to y'all, but you should go read the nick robinson thread to get some context for why a dude going on about how he's a feminist/woke but then uses his fame to try and sleep with women can be bad. only whedon is mainstream famous and was cheating on his wife for 15 years, which is kindaaa worse lol.

lmao. This made me think back to the South Park PC group where most of them are in it for puss only for the PC principal to go 'Whoa! We're not just doing this for the puss!'