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Assassin's Creed: Origin's Depiction of Cleopatra
- Thread starter Harlequin
- Start date
JonnyDBrit
Member
Somehow this is the first thing I've seen to specifically date the game. Sets it a lot more recently than I was expecting, in all honesty. Though I imagine the late game must like, have the Final War of the Roman Republic if they're going with that.
As to the topic at hand itself, mildly disappointing from a historical perspective, but at some level expected and not too big a deal given the sheer wealth of other media depicting Cleopatra. Plus as mentioned, one can always work with the handwave that the depiction isn't accurate even in-game - it's what they've done with buildings and the like before, as I particularly remember with one church in Black Flag. Otherwise, they were up against the sheer cultural expectation for the character and gave in, which I would say isn't quite the same as the Shelob situation where they dragged it in the exact opposite direction of their popular understanding so as to conform to industry standard.
As to the topic at hand itself, mildly disappointing from a historical perspective, but at some level expected and not too big a deal given the sheer wealth of other media depicting Cleopatra. Plus as mentioned, one can always work with the handwave that the depiction isn't accurate even in-game - it's what they've done with buildings and the like before, as I particularly remember with one church in Black Flag. Otherwise, they were up against the sheer cultural expectation for the character and gave in, which I would say isn't quite the same as the Shelob situation where they dragged it in the exact opposite direction of their popular understanding so as to conform to industry standard.
TheRazielim
Member
Wasn't she and the Ptolemaic dynasty in general Greek? We're not talking about Germanic white here, but whitewashing, really?
stanislavskov
Banned
Well, they had a chance to maybe design her in a less overtly-sexual way and try to adhere to actual depictions of her but instead followed suit on making a depiction in line with her image as per the mainstream media. It's a shame, but also not really because it's a completely understandable decision considering the franchise. I mean, they are chasing the big bucks and they never had any problem prettying up historical events, characters and settings.
In fact, she may very well have been white (though almost certainly not as pale as Elizabeth Taylor, mind you). The Ptolemies (which is the dynasty Cleopatra belonged to) were Greek, as was almost the entirety of Alexandria's upper class. She was definitely Greek on her father's side, though we're not entirely sure who her mother was, meaning it's theoretically possible that she was half-Egyptian. No way to know for sure, though.
Lol. i wanted to point that out as well. she's pretty pretty i.e. she's western. like seriously!!!
I hate whitewashing myself but she was a Greek of Macedonian origin
Corpsepyre
Banned
Totally prefer this Cleopatra myself.
I'm not really bothered by this, but then again, I'm someone who will play a game with historical figures and then go research more about them. Example: The story Uncharted 4 is loosely based on is about a real pirate heist. There is still an estimated 400 million in gold and gems out there. Get crackin' DetectiveGAF.
So, I hope people play Origins and it inspires them to find out more.
So, I hope people play Origins and it inspires them to find out more.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Yeah, this point gets forgotten a bunch due to the broader abstract and conception of 'Egypt', though in fairness it's not like we're entirely certain of Cleopatra's ancestry, particularly on her mother's side.
biglittleps
Member
Agreed.
Off topic: What is the name of the girl and movie name you posted ?
Thanks
Acquiescence
Member
I agree, it's a terrible design. Looks absolutely nothing like Elizabeth Taylor at all.
Agent Gibbs
Member
I'm disappointed she doesn't look like Amanda Barrie
Chances are she wasn't considered particularly beautiful in her day, either. There are historical sources claiming that she was attractive more for her wit, intelligence and charme than her physical appearance. (Though I'd have to read up on them again to tell you how trustworthy historians consider those sources to be.)
That's Leonor Varela. The screenshot is from a two-part made-for-TV film called Cleopatra. (The film is also not very historically accurate but it's got some gorgeous costumes and sets.)
You could also combine the two assumptions and hypothesize that the depiction was mainly interested in copying the physiognomy of previous Ptolemaic royals, whether these features were present in her or not.
The best
Gradly
Member
For me, personally, I prefer to play with prettier version/depiction of real characters, I don't care about actual things. The same way I like to play with alternate timeline if the real history was not that interesting. The whole gaming purpose is to entertain not to teach history
I don't know, while she most certainly isn't historically accurate, I don't think she looks like your "typical" beauty in the CG trailer. If I had to judge, I'd say they at least tried to make her look different from whatever the standards may be.
We'll see in the final game, sometimes the CG versions are quite a bit different from their in-game counterparts - see Ezio in Revelations.
We'll see in the final game, sometimes the CG versions are quite a bit different from their in-game counterparts - see Ezio in Revelations.
Possible, though inbreeding was so common among Ptolemaic royals that assuming most of them probably looked quite similar to one another doesn't feel like too much of a stretch.
The pic I posted already includes two screens of the in-game model. It looks pretty much the same.
JonnyDBrit
Member
To highlight this: not an uncommon practice for the era. I mean, Octavian's locks in a lot of coinage are basically lifted from depictions of Alexander the Great.
I don't understand the hostility to historical accuracy.
One can make fun pop culture and research/depict stuff accurately (within reason).
I don't think having in mind the ethnicity of a historical figure kills any fun in the game.
I like historical settings trying to depict history, even if there will obviously be flaws. And i'm not just talking appearances of characters here. There's enough misguided myths because of badly researched media as is.
One can make fun pop culture and research/depict stuff accurately (within reason).
I don't think having in mind the ethnicity of a historical figure kills any fun in the game.
I like historical settings trying to depict history, even if there will obviously be flaws. And i'm not just talking appearances of characters here. There's enough misguided myths because of badly researched media as is.
Huw_Dawson
Member
This is a good point, especially as we have a reasonable idea of what Cleopatra actually looked like.
hell Arno from Unity looks a million times better in the CGI trailer than what he does ingame, IE not even the same person.
I'm confused about the fact that there is a perception of Cleopatra as being beautiful because everything I ever learned about her was just the opposite. She was no great beauty and it was her sharp mind, cunning and intelligence and the presence she projected that made her desirable.
I am with the OP on this one. These games laud themselves on historical accuracy so they should aim for that.
And can we all agree that there is a problem in gaming with overly sexualizing every female figure. You see it everywhere and it is a damaging thing. A small example would be in Dragon Age: Inquisition where every desire demon we saw in the first two games was female and massively sexualized and then we meet a male desire demon and he just looks like a regular dude and doesn't want the label desire demon
I am with the OP on this one. These games laud themselves on historical accuracy so they should aim for that.
And can we all agree that there is a problem in gaming with overly sexualizing every female figure. You see it everywhere and it is a damaging thing. A small example would be in Dragon Age: Inquisition where every desire demon we saw in the first two games was female and massively sexualized and then we meet a male desire demon and he just looks like a regular dude and doesn't want the label desire demon
Your post was just "I don't care". Which is fine, but ¯\_(ツ_/¯.
And this?
I'm sure OP knows these games aren't 100% historically accurate. No piece of entertainment media is. You don't need to turn OP's "hey guys this is not accurate here's why let's discuss this" into "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU THINK THIS WELL I DON'T CARE ABOUT WONDER WOMAN".
Making up fake quotes and attributing them to me - it says a lot. You have now made three posts, not disagreeing with my opinion - but attacking it as invalid. I will just say this and disengage from your 'responses':
My post was not I don't care about the issue and it should not be talked about. My post was that 100% accuracy is not an issue for me!
Probably not, like I said:
But even if we're going to ignore her physical features, that'd still leave her outfit being Egyptian instead of Greek. (And I'm not even entirely sure if it's accurate as far as ancient Egyptian fashion goes so it may well be pseudo-Egyptian.)
TheRazielim
Member
Do you really think Ubihacks are capable of eliciting the latter through writing only?
In any case, this game was meant to be a clusterfuck to begin with in terms of historicity, since for the masses it's still AN ANCIENT EGYPT GAME WOOHOO so the fact that it's set in Ptolemaic times doesn't even matter, I am sure it will have plenty of anachronistic stuff that conflates Early/Middle/Late kingdom things with the Ptolemaic era.
grandwizard
Member
I wish they wouldn't have chosen Ptolemaic Egypt for the time period and instead gone much further back. Now it's going to be yet another piece of media about ancient Egypt that is going to be surrounded by assholes all too ready to remind everyone that Cleo wasn't black and the rulers were light skinned.
There are thousands of years of ancient Egypt history they could have gone to, it's disappointing that for a big AAA production they went back to the same old well that hollywood likes to depict Egypt of.
There are thousands of years of ancient Egypt history they could have gone to, it's disappointing that for a big AAA production they went back to the same old well that hollywood likes to depict Egypt of.
Do they? AC has been as historically accurate as a drunken stormtrooper for the most part with its forced in assassins vs templar conflicts
Not that I disagree about accuracy being important tho.
You are right, but you have to understand that Ubisoft is making a game for general audience. had they made her outfit more Greek, i am willing to bet there'd be a lot of people complaining that why would they dress an Egyptian woman like that. You can judge from this thread as well. most of the people do not care about historical accuracy.
TL/DR: You are right, but general gaming audience doesn't care.
Yeah, I haven't been paying much attention, but I'm super surprised they went with Ptolemaic Egypt for this one. Culturally and politically speaking it's as far removed from the "pharaohs and pyramids" era they seemed to be shooting for. I'm a nerd for Rome though so I can dig it.
As for Cleopatra - in general, yes, I'd agree that they're going with pop culture over history here, where they could have shot for the moon and come up with a more unique depiction. That being said, I'd caution against using ancient art as accurate history. It certainly informs our understanding, and is a better source than Hollywood movies from the 1950s, but it's all just guesswork.
I don't think the Assassin's Creed ever tried to be "historically accurate". That sounds like franchise revisionism to me. If anything, they outright said that they were taking characters, events and settings and rolling with them as they saw fit for their own narrative. Where are you getting the idea that these games "laud themselves" on "historical accuracy"?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Totally prefer this Cleopatra myself.
Hells yeah. Best Cleopatra ever.
THIRTEEN!!!!!!
He's married and his wife is even playable.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
It's a "controversial" Ubisoft thread on GAF. Par for the course really.
This might be the dumbest complaint I ever saw. Because them speaking in english but with a french accent would be better? lol
You want authenticity? Put the game on french and put on subtitles.
Exactly!
TheRazielim
Member
I think they went for Ptolemaic because of the overlap with Roman empire, which will make it easier to do spinoffs/semisequels in Greece/Rome later on.