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[Niceguydan8]

Gonna use the Vault of Glass as an example and going to use FFXIV as an example.

FFXIV is a standard MMO with the trinity roles. Tank, DPS, and healer. For all intents and purposes, the game was designed for dungeons and raid with players having an already pre-determined role in mind and they cannot deviate from that role. This is a fact. Destiny's encounters are not like that Strikes are no so mechanically intensive that they require role designation. Vault of Glass does. Whether that's the relic runner, the oracle killer, people who teleport, etc w/e. The point is that people are required to fulfill specific roles. Players can queue into raids with specific roles sure, but what if the person who queued into that role sucks in reality and the raid is a colossal failure. Let's take it a step further, what if the raids have multiple encounters and there are different role combinations. Then matchmaking has to be more granular. The more granular, the harder it is to find a match. There are too many non-fixed variables and too many deviations in Destiny that makes matchmaking unequivocal to normal MMOs.

Folks in random groups of FFXIV content couldn't(and often times don't) understand mechanics, which often times leads to a wipe, which is functionally the same thing as not knowing how to run the relic. For example. If a tank doesn't understand when the swap needs to happen, the exact same thing happens. Queuing as classes doesn't really change the end result. "Colossal failure" raids happen all of the time in every MMO, even in raids with the trinity. That stems from not knowing mechanics, which is exactly the same way people fail VoG. I don't think there are so many mechanics in each encounter that one simply cannot keep track of them all.

It's going to be tough when the raid is new. That's how most content is for random pugs. After those that are trying to raid get used to the content, it becomes more about going through the motions rather than understanding the mechanics.

I don't think the Destiny mechanics are complex enough to the point of requiring "relic runner" as a queue option or something. If somebody doesn't know how to do it in a pug group, just leave that group and find some other group that does. That's kind of the gamble with a random group, that's no different in a trinity based MMO. People don't understand mechanics, die, and make the raid a colossal failure. It happens all of the time and the existence of roles doesn't do anything to change that.

 

[EloquentM]

That's how matchmaking works. I learned that from Bungie.

The point about the metrics is that Bungie could use data they have ready access to in order to match players. That could be player skill. That could be connection quality. That could be gear score. It could be anything. Either way it could utilize data that isn't readily available for people finding other players through out-of-band means.

Yes it would. Aside from connection quality that’s generally the information you ask for in lfg

 

[Rizzi]

Rizzi, are you on your computer as you respond to these posts? Or your phone. Since I chat on Discord on my phone I can literally @ruthless right now and say "RUFFLES (nickname) do you want to do the NF in 30 minutes?"

You live in the same time zone I assume. I'm just saying if you played a NF with Ruthless you'd be like "Dude was dang cool! He's like a super sherpa! (He is)"

There's a reason for my first NF I messaged him to play it WITH HIM. I live in NJ. 14 hours difference. My son and I did it with him first try.

You can have randoms, or Ruffles.

(sigh sigh sigh)

I'm playing Destiny at the moment, It's nearly 7 am.

I just want to play the game when I want, without having to search outside of the game to find a group.

 

[phen0m24]

Manny, Tawp, katsu, guys.. I tried.

You can lead them to a forum but you can't make them click.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Manny, Tawp, katsu, guys.. I tried.

You can lead them to a forum but you can't make them click.

You didn't really try. You were speaking past their point and not really addressing what they were saying.

 

[Nameless]

The sound of someone who absolutely does not know what they're talking about.

Enlighten me oh wise one. What's the downside to giving people the option. And don't feed me any horseshit about protecting them from a horrible experience. Until there's MM with a 0℅ clear rate that's nothing but conjecture.

 

[CraigerGamer]

Know what's great for meeting random new people and making new friends? An option that matches you with random people who also have an interest in doing the same piece of content you're doing.

Having MM sounds like a great way to get people together, and it is, for an instant. But that is not what Bungie wants. MM does not build a better community. in fact, it seems to make it worse.

 

[Seijuro]

BUT YOU'RE ON IT RIGHT NOW (smashes head against wall)

That's because I am not playing currently but browsing the forum. I also have a limited amount of time to play due to work, family, commitments, as do many others, and I don't want to waste my time with HAVING to resort to unnecessary hinderances to enjoy my coop experience.
I won't deny you the option of having set groups and newly made friends for the Destiny experience, but I want an OPTION of having a quick and dirty run at all teh content the game has to offer with complete strangers through matchmaking. Even if by your (not personally you, mind you) standards it's not the optimal experience - let me be the judge of that.

 

[TheXbox]

It's not a game for solo players. It never has been and it never will be. The tools Bungie have added/are adding like Guided Games are just mechanisms for socialization.

 

[electricpirate]

That Guided games is a pretty good replacement for matchmaking (even for raids) will be out by the end of the month. That makes this whole ultra heated thread seem kind of silly no?

 

[Exploratory]

Why gate the Spire and a trophy behind it?

Because part of playing Destiny is being social and communicating. The trophy reflects that.

 

[Tawpgun]

Enlighten me oh wise one. What's the downside to giving people the option. And don't feed me any horseshit about protecting them from a horrible experience. Until there's MM with a 0℅ clear rate that's nothing but conjecture.

Because you're essentially saying you are ok with giving people an option to have a horrendous time.

You are ok with giving them the option to struggle and be frustrated trying to find a decent group who communicates. Maybe you get lucky and get a team that is partially mic'd up. But then people keep missing their cues and you waste 4 hours of your life with no rewards to show for it.

Then you go on bungie.net or neogaf or to your friends and say how the raid is bullshit and the community sucks etc etc etc.

It's not horseshit. If you have an Xbox I would suggest you sign up for the Sea of Thieves alpha. They have standard matchmaking. It's fucking awful that you can't even sail a ship in the right direction without a communicating crew. It's there as an option and there are mutliple threads every play session about how mics should be forced about how non communicating people are destroying the game.

 

[EloquentM]

That Guided games is a pretty good replacement for matchmaking (even for raids) will be out by the end of the month. That makes this whole ultra heated thread seem kind of silly no?

Welcome to destiny threads post year 1

 

[NullPointer]

That Guided games is a pretty good replacement for matchmaking (even for raids) will be out by the end of the month. That makes this whole ultra heated thread seem kind of silly no?

Which could be a great middle-ground. Is it actually limited to solo players though? If I have a group of two (possibly three), could I use it? That was almost always the case with me in D1.

Because you're essentially saying you are ok with giving people an option to have a horrendous time.

You are ok with giving them the option to struggle and be frustrated trying to find a decent group who communicates. Maybe you get lucky and get a team that is partially mic'd up. But then people keep missing their cues and you waste 4 hours of your life with no rewards to show for it.

Which was my experience using LFG in D1. And it still took forever to get everybody together. My bad, time-wasted experiences inform why I personally would like to see some kind of in-game matchmaking that works.

I also play a lot of games, and Destiny makes up just one small part of that - so I'm not cool with filling my friend's list with people for one game. Maybe some of the folks here who don't want to see matchmaking mainline Destiny and that's fine, but I'm a casual player, and I'd like to be able to jump in and out of games relatively easily, even understanding that running a raid is a decent time investment.

 

[Podge293]

That Guided games is a pretty good replacement for matchmaking (even for raids) will be out by the end of the month. That makes this whole ultra heated thread seem kind of silly no?

Is that not limited by "tickets" as to how much you can use it or is that just for the beta?

 

[Tawpgun]

That's because I am not playing currently but browsing the forum. I also have a limited amount of time to play due to work, family, commitments, as do many others, and I don't want to waste my time with HAVING to resort to unnecessary hinderances to enjoy my coop experience.
I won't deny you the option of having set groups and newly made friends for the Destiny experience, but I want an OPTION of having a quick and dirty run at all teh content the game has to offer with complete strangers through matchmaking. Even if by your (not personally you, mind you) standards it's not the optimal experience - let me be the judge of that.

This is amusing because if you truly have little time to play the end game content you would want to have an efficient crew. I guarantee you would have a better time with either an LFG system or guided games. LFG system would probably even be better.

There is nothing quick about a standard matchmade raid fireteam. But it will be dirty.

 

[Sylas]

But they have built a community. A very loyal and robust one that is more accepting and kind than any other community out there (that I have seen.) So, perhaps while their decision is unpopular, their decision fulfills their vision for the game.

Again, this seems in-line with how folks felt about Vanilla WOW before they added QOL improvements such as flying mounts and MM. Using a 3rd party site eliminated much of the riff-raff I would see in the match making for random strikes and I became very close with the 9-10 people I would Raid with. I would never have had that if I could just que into events.

I don't know a single, overarching Destiny community. I know several Destiny communities. There's a huge difference between the server identity people had in vanilla WoW and the people on GAF and the people on Reddit and the people on, and the people on, and the people on...

The communities I've found are never ingame. They're always from 3rd party sites. There's nothing wrong with that, but WoW has the exact same thing these days too. Your communities are built around stuff that's based out of game. Unless you're in like... the roleplay community.

 

[ANDS]

If a person can come to GAF and post they can post in LFG and get a better team and experience than any matchmaking would if they only stopped being scared and did something for themselves for 5 seconds. Like you say it is not Bungie's job to open up the end game content for everyone.

Will people stop with this "you're anti-social" horseshit. Not everyone is a GAF'er or bothers going on forums looking for people to play with. Why would they? There are hundreds, maybe thousands on these forums. There are millions playing the game. Stop making it as if people are just so "gosh darned scared of talking to puh-puh-peeple!" and that's the ONLY reason they're clamoring for LFG or MM in game.

Also I can take a shot at explaining why guided games are better: They let you choose the type of matchmake you want. Normal matchmaking would just set you up with someone. Guided games make it so you can specifically pic if you want to be guided or are there to help out. That when thinking about how raids work in Destiny takes away the whole match making being bad for it issue.

You can only (if the system description is anything to go off of) GG as a leader if you're in a clan. And whats to stop terrible people from queueing up into a GG as a leader? Why are you and Bungie automatically assuming that the average person in a "Hey post your name here if you want in the NeoGAF clan" Clan is any better at the game than someone solo? It's this backwards generalizations that has them deciding that GG is the best system they could come up with (hint: it isn't).

A very stupid and conceited attitude. It takes you like 10 seconds to make a post depending on where. I would say it takes 5 seconds in GAF, but you decide that you are over it. You will post how you are above that and that if you need to do extra work it is not for you, but you've done more work that you'd ever would on an LFG posting here.

People don't DESTINY all day. I'm sure you know that.

And we who have friends lists populated with people all over the world that we met from GAF will never understand the logic of making a post to complain about it over making a simple, possibly pride-swallowing post to, you know, engage with the community.

See above.

 

[DyZ]

It doesn't, but the quest makes it seem like it does. It says, take your fireteam to do the strike or something.



So far only the Rat king needs a team. For strum the quest makes it seem like you do, but you can solo it. You don't even need to finish the strike.

Actually the raid exotic shotgun you need a fireteam for unless you're a god and can run a prestige-type strike at level 300 by yourself.

 

[Alo0oy]

Is that not limited by "tickets" as to how much you can use it or is that just for the beta?

It's also limited to normal mode only.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Because you're essentially saying you are ok with giving people an option to have a horrendous time.

You are ok with giving them the option to struggle and be frustrated trying to find a decent group who communicates. Maybe you get lucky and get a team that is partially mic'd up. But then people keep missing their cues and you waste 4 hours of your life with no rewards to show for it.

Maybe the group would be bad, maybe it would be good? That's the struggle with literally every pub group in any raid environment.

I don't see anybody arguing that it would be an efficient use of time if the goal is to clear the content as efficiently as possible. That has always been getting premade groups that one can rely on. Pub groups exist for those that don't necessarily want to do that, but still want to experience the more complex content.

 

[Zarth]

Their "idea" is you use Guided Games for the NF and Raids (Maybe Trials one day?) to find people to play with regularly afterwards.

Whether it will work or not is yet to be seen.

I think the Normal NF would be fine with matchmaking... The rest is dubious.

 

[Podge293]

I also don't get the "you can be matched with terrible people using MM that'll ruin the experience"

How would me posting "hey guys looking for a group to raid in destiny on Xbox" prevent terrible people saying "I'm in"

 

[Tawpgun]

Maybe the group would be bad, maybe it would be good? That's the struggle with literally every pub group in any raid environment.

I don't see anybody arguing that it would be an efficient use of time if the goal is to clear the content as efficiently as possible. That has always been getting premade groups that one can rely on. Pub groups exist for those that don't necessarily want to do that, but still want to experience the more complex content.

Theres a much much much much higher chance of success with a pre made group.

The raid specifically has mechanics that are finely tuned. If someone goes in with a group of 6 matchmade randoms, you're all running around with your heads cut off trying to figure out why you're wiping.

Maybe you and your friend figured out the strategy. Too made 420bluntzxx can't hear you.





Honestly, its less about the "are you good or are you bad" and more so "can you listen and can you speak"

 

[Zarth]

Theres a much much much much higher chance of success with a pre made group.

The raid specifically has mechanics that are finely tuned. If someone goes in with a group of 6 matchmade randoms, you're all running around with your heads cut off trying to figure out why you're wiping.

Maybe you and your friend figured out the strategy. Too made 420bluntzxx can't hear you.

The final fight in the raid effectively requires 4 people with mics.

You'd have to get real fancy with emotes if you wanted to do it without them.

Other raid fights require similar communication though maybe not so many individuals.

What really surprises me in all this is Guided Games doesn't enforce mics. They could easily check to see if you are microphoned up before allowing you to queue.

 

[Niceguydan8]

The raid specifically has mechanics that are finely tuned. If someone goes in with a group of 6 matchmade randoms, you're all running around with your heads cut off trying to figure out why you're wiping.

Traditional MMOs generally have those as well (with some other filters that one can opt-in on, like "already completed" or something that would filter out those that have not completed the content) yet some of those groups end up clearing it, while the premades still exist and generally clear the content faster. There are also teaching groups that pop up as well.

Which is kind of my point. There's something there for everybody. If somebody wants to learn, chances are there is a group for that. If somebody wants to team up with a premade and do content, they can. If somebody wants to roll the dice with randoms, they can.

All of the upsides that exist with premade groups (or guided games) still exist with random pugs being able to enter a raid with one another.

Who does an opt-in matchmaking hurt? Anyone that was going to premade would still be able do to so. Hell, GG could still exist in it's current form (which is a good way to teach somebody the raid).

 

[EloquentM]

The final fight in the raid effectively requires 4 people with mics.

You'd have to get real fancy with emotes if you wanted to do it without them.

Other raid fights require similar communication though maybe not so many individuals.

What really surprises me in all this is Guided Games doesn't enforce mics. They could easily check to see if you are microphoned up before allowing you to queue.

I think it asks for them but yeah doesn’t enforce.

 

[Listonosh]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned here but you can recruit people using the Destiny 2 companion app. On the last tab, there's literally a recruitement option where you can join up with people looking for specific things. You can even specify if you're doing something specific, such as the Nightfall quest for the Rat King.

 

[Tawpgun]

Traditional MMOs generally have those as well (with some other filters that one can opt-in on, like "already completed" or something that would filter out those that have not completed the content) yet some of those groups end up clearing it, while the premades still exist and generally clear the content faster. There are also teaching groups that pop up as well.

Which is kind of my point. There's something there for everybody. If somebody wants to learn, chances are there is a group for that. If somebody wants to team up with a premade and do content, they can. If somebody wants to roll the dice with randoms, they can.

All of the upsides that exist with premade groups (or guided games) still exist with random pugs being able to enter a raid with one another.

Traditional MMO's is not where you want to draw comparisons from. Especially from the PC community. People either have mics or can type


But I guess at the end of the day, our difference is this: I'd rather not allow players to have a shit time at what should be the most fun content in the game by having an easy "matchmake with randos" button. That sours them on the game, they dont' get a community, etc etc. I'd rather lose players that are too lazy to make an effort than to lose players frustrated by rando raid teammates.

Whereas you and others in this thread want that option there so players can have a bad time 90% of the time. But hey, it's there!

 

[CraigerGamer]

I don't know a single, overarching Destiny community. I know several Destiny communities. There's a huge difference between the server identity people had in vanilla WoW and the people on GAF and the people on Reddit and the people on, and the people on, and the people on...

The communities I've found are never ingame. They're always from 3rd party sites. There's nothing wrong with that, but WoW has the exact same thing these days too. Your communities are built around stuff that's based out of game. Unless you're in like... the roleplay community.

Of course the situations are going to be different as the games are different genres and have different mechanics. But putting those differences aside, what they do have in common is the mechanics demand player interaction which forces communities to develop. MM has had a negative influence on the Wow community. I am not sure that can be debated. Bungie recognizes this and doesn't want to take the chance of it doing the same thing to the people on GAF and the people on Reddit and the people on, and the people on...

 

[Seth Enosh]

Is that not limited by "tickets" as to how much you can use it or is that just for the beta?

It has been said that the ticket system is just for the beta.

 

[Freshmaker]

That Guided games is a pretty good replacement for matchmaking (even for raids) will be out by the end of the month. That makes this whole ultra heated thread seem kind of silly no?

Except... What if you don't want some asshole telling you what to do?

But I guess at the end of the day, our difference is this: I'd rather not allow players to have a shit time at what should be the most fun content in the game by having an easy "matchmake with randos" button. That sours them on the game, they dont' get a community, etc etc. I'd rather lose players that are too lazy to make an effort than to lose players frustrated by rando raid teammates.

Whereas you and others in this thread want that option there so players can have a bad time 90% of the time. But hey, it's there!

The alternative for many is to simply never do those activities. Soo.... Better time had?

 

[Zarth]

I think it asks for them but yeah doesn’t enforce.

Yeah it does but I've already tried to run a few for kicks where our joiners did not have Mics.

If they don't enforce it nobody is gonna bother reading that you need one.

 

[CraigerGamer]

Except... What if you don't want some asshole telling you what to do?



The alternative for many is to simply never do those activities. Soo.... Better time had?

For those that want a higher chance of quality and play with people who care about the game...yes, most definitely.

 

[Nameless]

Because you're essentially saying you are ok with giving people an option to have a horrendous time.

You are ok with giving them the option to struggle and be frustrated trying to find a decent group who communicates. Maybe you get lucky and get a team that is partially mic'd up. But then people keep missing their cues and you waste 4 hours of your life with no rewards to show for it.

Then you go on bungie.net or neogaf or to your friends and say how the raid is bullshit and the community sucks etc etc etc.

It's not horseshit. If you have an Xbox I would suggest you sign up for the Sea of Thieves alpha. They have standard matchmaking. It's fucking awful that you can't even sail a ship in the right direction without a communicating crew. It's there as an option and there are mutliple threads every play session about how mics should be forced about how non communicating people are destroying the game.

It is horseshit because you're just speculating. Would there be horrible experiences? Sure. There are now. That's inescapable in social games. But allowing people to cut their teeth on the Raid at their leisure would naturally lead to the community becoming more knowledgeable and adept with its mechanics over time. I guarantee that if you jumped on Sea of Thieves a year from now, you'd find that the average MM crew would absolutely be familiar enough with the various roles to function without strict communication. People learn and get better if you allow them to. It's what happens when you're given access without arbitrary barriers to entry.

 

[Podge293]

Yeah it does but I've already tried to run a few for kicks where our joiners did not have Mics.

If they don't enforce it nobody is gonna bother reading that you need one.

How do you enforce it tho? Anyone can plug a Mic in and not use it

 

[Conkerkid11]

Really the only problem I see is running into players not using mics and thinking it's viable to get through content like that without being capable of communicating with their teammates.

As of now, the Bungie.net app fireteam finder is basically ghetto matchmaking, wherein you've gotta go through a bunch of hoops just to form a fireteam that's essentially just as good as a matchmaking-created fireteam's going to be.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Traditional MMO's is not where you want to draw comparisons from. Especially from the PC community. People either have mics or can type


But I guess at the end of the day, our difference is this: I'd rather not allow players to have a shit time at what should be the most fun content in the game by having an easy "matchmake with randos" button. That sours them on the game, they dont' get a community, etc etc. I'd rather lose players that are too lazy to make an effort than to lose players frustrated by rando raid teammates.

Whereas you and others in this thread want that option there so players can have a bad time 90% of the time. But hey, it's there!

Which is where I got the point that "I think Destiny needs better ways to communicate/coordinate with people in game." I stated this earlier. I would rather them have markers that they can place on the map or text chat (which will exist on PC, won't it? If so, kind of a moot point, isn't it?)

Also, where are you pulling the 90% number from? Don't give me a snarky garbage response if you are going to fill it with hyperbole that you can't back up.

I think GG is a good way to teach people the raid, but I don't think it is the end all solution. I think it's a good step towards a solution, but I think the solution is a lot more encompassing of different players that have different preferences of play. I think that solution has existed for years and for whatever reason, they aren't doing it.

 

[Freshmaker]

For those that want a higher chance of quality and play with people who care about the game...yes, most definitely.

I keep getting told it's not about the game but making friends tho. Which is it?

 

[WaterAstro]

LFR destroyed WoW. I don't support brainless matchmaking for end-game content.

I get that Destiny needed some method of getting people connected, but I'd rather have no matchmaking. I haven't played Destiny for a long time, so I don't know of any new features.

 

[Zarth]

How do you enforce it tho? Anyone can plug a Mic in and not use it

At least they have to plug it in and are aware they cannot queue without plugging a Mic in.

Thats a huge step to stopping the 90% of the people that aren't gonna read the description and just hop in the queue.

 

[pantsmith]

Except... What if you don't want some asshole telling you what to do?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm given the context, but if you dont want some asshole telling you what to do you will probably find the new raid deeply unpleasant.

"Raiding" in any game is essentially "doing what some asshole tells you." Like, thats the whole experience.

 

[Freshmaker]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm given the context, but if you dont want some asshole telling you what to do you will probably find the new raid deeply unpleasant.

"Raiding" in any game is essentially "doing what some asshole tells you." Like, thats the whole experience.

Oh, I've never had any interest in the raid. Too many stupid barriers to entry.

 

[gattsu]

Lmao what is this complaint from OP. Guided games. If that's not good enough, make some friends online here on gaf or DTG or /r/fireteams. /thread

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Arguing against choice always seems to be the losing side of arguments.

Just a thought.

 

[Stiler]

Wow, so many people ok with this?

I can understand if it's difficult, but that should be a PLAYER Choice, not the game telling you "If you can't get some of your own friends to do this then your SOL"

Players should be able to at least TRY and play with PUB's, not be locked out of even being able to attempt them because they don't have a pre-made group to do it with.

 

[bosh]

Trials should definitely have matchmaking

Spoiler

So I can finally run into teams I can beat

Hahaha agreed.

As others said Nightfalls have guided games which is slowly being rolled out. I can host a guided game for Nightfalls now.

Trials is brutal and matchmaking would give you a poor experience most of the time

 

[Freshmaker]

Wow, so many people ok with this?

I can understand if it's difficult, but that should be a PLAYER Choice, not the game telling you "If you can't get some of your own friends to do this then your SOL"

Players should be able to at least TRY and play with PUB's, not be locked out of even being able to attempt them because they don't have a pre-made group to do it with.

Buu.... But you're wanting to choose wrong!

Uh, somehow.

 

[WaterAstro]

Wow, so many people ok with this?

I can understand if it's difficult, but that should be a PLAYER Choice, not the game telling you "If you can't get some of your own friends to do this then your SOL"

Players should be able to at least TRY and play with PUB's, not be locked out of even being able to attempt them because they don't have a pre-made group to do it with.

If Bungie doesn't make the raids easy enough for PUG matchmaking, casuals will think it's a shit game.
If they make it easy for Pugs, then the hardcore will be bored because it'll be too easy to beat.

It's not player choice. They have to design the difficulty on player expectations.

 

[Tawpgun]

Except... What if you don't want some asshole telling you what to do?



The alternative for many is to simply never do those activities. Soo.... Better time had?

I'd rather not experience X then have a consistently shit time doing X.

So yes?