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D2 PvE is like walking through a "room full of balloons with a nail gun"

jviggy43

Member
So while reading through some destiny articles I happened to come across a pretty interesting take on D2's current PvE mode that really feels like the central problem to the non end game PvE content.

This is how Destiny 2 is panning out for me so far: like rampaging through Doom stuck in god mode, or a room full of balloons with a nail gun.

At this point I can't help but focus on those formative hours. It's the choke point through which all players must pass to unlock the endgame's presumably better (and more broadly challenging) angels. If Destiny's future-fantasy story was a breezy gallop through deceptively panoramic vistas distilled to wide-laned highways along which platoons of monsters emerged like dutiful if dimwitted friction points, Destiny 2's is that meets shooting—or in my case punching—exotic fish in a barrel. I've vaporized some 1,966 extraterrestrials so far, roughly half of those with my Hunter Arcstrider's superhuman roundhouse.

My worry a dozen hours in as I approach the level 20 cap is that I've broken something. I wasn't trying to. I didn't grind my way to imbalance. I swear all I did outside of following the story and a handful of side-quests was play a few public events, picking off foes in the same slaughter pens the last game trotted out like clockwork.

Unlike in D1 where difficulty modifiers could be selected prior to starting a mission, D2 has forgone all options to change or play around with difficulty until you reach end game content ala the night fall and the soon to be released HM leviathan raid. As such, the vast majority of the PvE content has been almost comically easy to get through if youre playing through on the recommended levels. Running missions at lower levels than the recommendation can be done rather easily regardless of skill since the enemy AI is usually rather passive and dying rarely sets you back with any serious repercussions.

Additionally, much of the campaign mission's areas throughout each section are largely optional. Most encounters can just be ran through without so much as shooting a bullet and the enemies don't seem to do much besides tickle you on your way by. Even if their damage modifiers were turned up, I doubt any serious impediment would be made since the AI usually just stands about or slowly walks towards you (in the cabal's case they laughably slowly jump up and float down in some other location all the while not shooting for some reason; these are the main enemies of the entire campaign).


Yes, there's something fleetingly satisfying about executing power fantasies that let you sprint around the room face-punching everything (including multi-shielded bosses) with impunity. But there's something lost when success and lavish rewards flow this fast and freely. I'm all for games not being Skinner boxes, a criticism leveled at the original Destiny. This feels like maybe a partial reaction to that. But it also feels like the pendulum's swung too far the other way.

While it is no doubt fun and what made destiny feel so good to play, the fact that most of its PvE content could be turned to cruise control and let you just mow down enemies without much effort, it has felt like in D2 it's reached an extreme end where encounters are no longer fun anymore. By mission 3 I found myself sprinting through everything I could just to get up to 20 and start end game content, something that has been the sole reason for my interest in the franchise despite its often shallowness compared to other loot/mmo esque structures. Most encounters felt like a colossal waste of time since I was never under any serious threat; rooms where I was forced to kill enemies often became tedious and a chore because of bullet sponge yellow bars rather than creating that intense by the skin of my teeth victories.

Mission structure is another issue that Ive had with the franchise and is still ever present in this game. It was nice to get two tank missions but neither were particularly well designed while the rest of the campaign was a retread of every encounter youve ever had in D1. Go here, scan something, horde mode, rinse and repeat. FIght fallen, taken, hive, and cabal. Kill bullet sponge bosses that are giant versions of regular enemies in strikes. This is what makes up 80-85% of the PvE content in Destiny and its a slog to get through until you get to what most (and myself) consider the real game, which is the end game content raid/nf.

Personally I'm really hoping the other expansions and future entries in the series bring back difficulty settings or at least dial up the AI and mission structures enough so that there isn't such a feeling of mindless tedium and repetitive tasks. Even the NF feels much easier than those in D1 due to death rarely being an issue in and of itself rather than the newly implemented time system. Anyone else share these sentiments? For everything D2 did to really bring us some much appreciated improvements, I feel there is so much more that can be done with the PvE aspects.


http://time.com/4929671/destiny-2-review-impressions/
 
I appreciated that they removed the bullet sponge garbage from the first game, but it's definitely on the easy side of things

At least it's on the more fun side of things, with a few difficulty spikes sprinkled throughout
 
Prestige Nightfall? Maybe they're just getting good at the game... - it isn't necessarily super hard. Maybe what they are looking for are Heroic Strikes? In comparison with Destiny 1 I'm not really sure how this is much different, but I know that isn't necessarily the problem at hand.
 

unrealist

Member
I am sorry I thought it was Diablo 2 ... cos it is really like walking thru a room of balloons with a nail gun as an Amazon :D
 

lt519

Member
The campaign was laughably easy, we literally had a "that was it?" moment after beating the final boss.

The end game is appropriately difficult, but I really wish they kept the heroic option available for the first playthrough.

For all the strides it has made, D2 had taken an awful lot away from it's core players (private PvP matches, etc).
 

MrMephistoX

Member
It's weird I feel like AI is actually better and more Halo-esque in terms of evasion and stalking you if you run away but they go down way too easily...

At the end of the day I think they decided to go casual as hell for story to get new players into it knowing hardcore fans would plow right through it to get to the good stuff...time and NOD results will tell if that was a good strategy.
 

jviggy43

Member
It's weird I feel like AI is actually better and more Halo-esque in terms of evasion and stalking you if you run away but they go down way too easily...

At the end of the day I think they decided to go casual as hell for story to get new players into it knowing hardcore fans would plow right through it to get to the good stuff...time and NOD results will tell if that was a good strategy.

I couldn't disagree more. They all feel passive and rarely fight you with the complexity of the Halo AI. This is even more problematic since their damage output is so low.
 

UberLevi

Member
They made a huge mistake by
returning your light ten minutes after you lost it
. Would've been a great lore explanation as to why you're not as powerful anymore.

Yeah. I think in the Inverted Spire strike Zavala even says something along the lines of "What is a Cabal squadron to you who have slain gods in the heart of the Black Garden?" and I think that pretty much sums it up. We're supposed to canonically be legendary heroes at this point.
 
D2 = Diablo 2

so basically Destiny 2 is getting D2 right ;p

'like walking through a room of skeletons with whirlwind, multishot, or frozen orb'
 
There's a lot to be desired when it comes to difficulty and levelling, but I have a feeling they'll roll out content in similar fashion to Destiny 1.
 
Running solo I still find plenty of danger to instances. Playing co-op with some strategy really lets you fly through enemies though, would be good to see some difficulty balancing options for co-op play.
 
Give me a list of campaign missions and let me have a sliding scale for difficulty as well as modifier ability. We need more options for replaying the content at a challenging level this time since the content is much better.
 
They made a huge mistake by
returning your light ten minutes after you lost it
. Would've been a great lore explanation as to why you're not as powerful anymore.

So what you want to go through like half the game.
without any of your abilities?

Because if anything sounds unfun it's that.
 

Orayn

Member
I didn't find the campaign as mind-numbingly easy as some describe, just manageable.

It would still be great to have more options for difficulty, though. Ideally, something like Kid Icarus Uprising where you can choose your risk/reward ratio with a high level of granularity.
 
Dude, I died plenty of times in the campaign and the open world. No idea what easy mode people are talking about. Are they forgetting all the times they died or wiped? Show me their stats.
 
Destiny 2's difficulty is frustratingly easy until you hit end-game. They really need to address it.

Still kind of too easy because there's 0 incentive to do anything once you've collected the raid gear. And the prestige nightfalls once you have the right gear level are really the cap. Yet there's not much incentive to do them any longer. Not even an XP buff. There's nothing further to push to. They really needed to have Diablo esque modifiers and gear unlocked to let you continue forward in PVE. Should have re-opened the campaign with ever increasing difficulty modifiers and separated PVE gear and ability trees from PVP gear to allow scalable encounters beyond just a weekly nightfall/prestige.

Dude, I died plenty of times in the campaign and the open world. No idea what easy mode people are talking about. Are they forgetting all the times they died or wiped? Show me their stats.

Missions in the campaign especially the larger set piece battles were so disappointingly anti-climactic due to the lack of real urgency and tension in fighting. Like for two of the final missions you have vehicles that can be spawned again every 20 yards.
 

Izuna

Banned
They made a huge mistake by
returning your light ten minutes after you lost it
. Would've been a great lore explanation as to why you're not as powerful anymore.

one of the main reasons why i never did more than a couple missions and dropped the game was because i was SO BORED up until I got it.

I had a better time with Destiny 1 and I hated that game ;( I don't need to play a scene where I am forced walking looking at the sub-par graphics of D2 for 5 minutes.
 

wuth

Member
Dude, I died plenty of times in the campaign and the open world. No idea what easy mode people are talking about. Are they forgetting all the times they died or wiped? Show me their stats.

You can run past most of the enemies. Sure, there's gunfights to be had but in many of the strikes/adventures/lost sectors, but the majority of the fights can be completely avoided. This is part of what people are talking about. Even on the nightfall, you can simply rush past set pieces so long as you move quickly.
 

Ramirez

Member
You can run past most of the enemies. Sure, there's gunfights to be had but in many of the strikes/adventures/lost sectors, but the majority of the fights can be completely avoided. This is part of what people are talking about. Even on the nightfall, you can simply rush past set pieces so long as you move quickly.

No one is making you avoid the fights, you're choosing to?

That's not what the quotes are saying anyways, I certainly never felt like I had God mode on in my initial play through, as he said, I'd like to see the guys stats receipt, lol.
 

N30RYU

Member
When Bungie tied dificulty to time trials something is wrong.

They don't want you to get powerful gear out of the weakly missions.

So Clayde, Call to Arms, Nightfall and Crucible is all that is left to level up the new light later on.
And if you don't have friends to play with only Clayde and the tedious Call to Arms PvP is what is left to level up if you are lucky enough to get what you need. They let you roll the dice twice a week... literaly they push you to creare a clone character... and run trough the story again...
 
Indeed. It's needlessly easy until it's really difficult. That's not how you do progression in loot games, Bungie. Luckily it's a fun shooter.
 

renzolama

Member
They're just funneling more people to the endgame content.

Interesting, since it's almost exactly the same as the startgame content

Oh man, a new flashpoint this week, it's gonna be sick! Oh...it's just grinding a few mechanically shallow public events I've already done four dozen times
Well, at least I can hit up the heroic strike playlist! Oh...there's no heroic playlist and the rewards from the regular playlist are useless
This Call to Arms thing sounds awesome though, what kind of interesting endgame crucible challenge awaits me here? Oh, it's just grinding crucible for 90 minutes which will likely not even reward you enough tokens to exchange for a single legendary engram containing another shitty armor piece below your current power level.

Yeah, the endgame in Destiny 2 is amazing
 

Strakt

Member
PVE outside endgame shouldn't be difficult.

Compare it to WoW since the game has SOME similar aspects (dont worry not saying its an mmo),

WoW (1-max level) leveling is easy.. in destiny the campaign is easy (aka the leveling process)
WoW dungeons = Destiny Strikes are easy
WoW World quests = Destiny Public Events are somewhat easy (depends how many ppl and if heroic)
WoW heroic dungeons = Destiny Nightfalls = somewhat hard
WoW mythic dungeons = Prestige Nightfalls = difficult
WoW raid = Destiny raid = hard
WoW mythic raid = Destiny Prestige Raid = difficult
 

border

Member
I know it's Time magazine and all, but I really wouldn't put much stock in an opinion piece by someone who hasn't even hit the level cap.

Destiny 1's campaign wasn't exactly Dark Souls either. The Taken King had some endgame missions that got really nasty though.

"All this game does is make you stand around and kill enemies while your Ghost hacks open a door."

*Bungie creates open-ended mission without a scripted obstacle*

"Hey, you can just run past the enemies, this isn't challenging at all!"

Do people want it to be like a WoW dungeon, where mobs will literally chase you forever?
 

jviggy43

Member
Well I heard the campaign is like 6 hours, so is it even much of a deal?

There's a lot more to PVE than the campaign.

Of which have largely the same problems as the campaign outside of the raid (and this week's nightfall in particular) with regards to how absurdly easy they are.

PVE outside endgame shouldn't be difficult.

Compare it to WoW since the game has SOME similar aspects (dont worry not saying its an mmo), WoW (1-max level) leveling is easy.. in destiny the campaign is easy (aka the leveling process)

WoW dungeons = Destiny Strikes are easy
WoW World quests = Destiny Public Events are somewhat easy
WoW heroic dungeons = Destiny Nightfalls = somewhat hard
WoW mythic dungeons = Prestige Nightfalls = difficult
WoW raid = Destiny raid = hard
WoW mythic raid = Destiny Prestige Raid = difficult
Bad excuse and further, D1 avoided this problem with the difficulty modifier (at least in terms of making things more challenging-to an extent).
Destiny 1 wasn't exactly Dark Souls either. The Taken King had some endgame missions that got really nasty though.

"All this game does is make you stand around and kill enemies while your Ghost hacks open a door."

*Bungie creates open-ended mission without a scripted obstacle*

"Hey, you can just run past the enemies, this isn't challenging at all!"

Neither were difficult but that doesn't alleviate the issue here. Additionally, the examples you used to try and paint the complaint as a false dichotomy are not mutually exclusive. You can implement new activities in missions that aren't the same "protect ghost" while also not allowing players to just run through them. Thats just silly to act like thats contradictory.

I mean, that's what loot games eventually have to devolve into.

People love Diablo 3, but its endgame is conceptually much the same. You are repeating the same stuff over and over again to grind out for better stuff. The only difference is the difficulty modifiers and the odd goblin to spice things up.

If you don't want a grind in the endgame, you are playing the wrong type of game.

Also diablo has a much much larger loot table.
 
Interesting, since it's almost exactly the same as the startgame content

Oh man, a new flashpoint this week, it's gonna be sick! Oh...it's just grinding a few mechanically shallow public events I've already done four dozen times
Well, at least I can hit up the heroic strike playlist! Oh...there's no heroic playlist and the rewards from the regular playlist are useless
This Call to Arms thing sounds awesome though, what kind of interesting endgame crucible challenge awaits me here? Oh, it's just grinding crucible for 90 minutes which will likely not even reward you enough tokens to exchange for a single legendary engram containing another shitty armor piece below your current power level.

Yeah, the endgame in Destiny 2 is amazing

I mean, that's what loot games eventually have to devolve into.

People love Diablo 3, but its endgame is conceptually much the same. You are repeating the same stuff over and over again to grind out for better stuff. The only difference is the difficulty modifiers and the odd goblin to spice things up.

If you don't want a grind in the endgame, you are playing the wrong type of game.
 

Strakt

Member
Bad excuse and further, D1 avoided this problem with the difficulty modifier (at least in terms of making things more challenging-to an extent).

Ehh its not really an excuse , its more of a comparison.. but im glad they went this route. Hopefully they satisfy your difficulty cravings in a future dlc
 

border

Member
Neither were difficult but that doesn't alleviate the issue here. Additionally, the examples you used to try and paint the complaint as a false dichotomy are not mutually exclusive. You can implement new activities in missions that aren't the same "protect ghost" while also not allowing players to just run through them. Thats just silly to act like thats contradictory.

That's kind of the point. Destiny 2 (and even Destiny 1) utilize both scenarios.

Some missions have chokepoints where you have to stay in one area and fight waves of enemies. Other missions allow you to move a full-speed through a massive level if your evasion abilities are strong enough to withstand being assaulted by the dozens of enemies that spawn.

What's dumb is that people pretend like the game only does one or the other. Or that you have to be forced to fight all the enemies to make the game difficult.
 
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