You're of course under no obligation to take my word for it; however, "now-former admin" is very specific and quite literally could not possibly refer to anybody else. GAF has many moderators but just a handful of admins, and only one admin has been demoted in recent years. Also, a demotion generally isn't followed with a ban as running afoul of moderation policy is not itself against the terms of service of the site.
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Hat in Time releases in 2 days, yet JonTron still seems to be in the game
- Thread starter GhostTrick
- Start date
- Status
You're of course under no obligation to take my word for it; however, "now-former admin" is very specific and quite literally could not possibly refer to anybody else. GAF has many moderators but just a handful of admins, and only one admin has been demoted in recent years. Also, a demotion generally isn't followed with a ban as running afoul of moderation policy is not itself against the terms of service of the site.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Then play it? Don't go on an internet forum and act like other people boycotting the game somehow affects you personally?
Then feel free to not go into threads discussing such topics.
If by plain sailing you mean risking homelessness, then sure.
Let's please not equate supporting or even looking like you support nazis to risky business ventures.
Well it's easy to say what should be done when you won't be the one suffering the consequences of the choice.
Removing Jon Tron will invoke the anger of potentially thousands of his angry fans. Fans who who would have been potential customers due to exposure from Jon Tron's role in the game and possible gameplay videos.
If I were launching a game, I certainly wouldn't want to open myself up to the doxxing, death threats, review bombing and harassment that usually results from getting on the wrong side of a Youtuber's fanbase.
It's much better for them to keep their heads down and wait for it to blow over. That's making the best of a bad situation. Anything else would just be fanning what appears to be a relatively small flame at the moment. They've already lost sales from this whole situation and that was unavoidable, but actively participating in this would be heavily publicised and just result in more lost sales from whichever side they go against.
I don't know what sort of situation the developers are in, but it's quite possible that they already can't afford to do anything that might rock the boat. We all saw how desperate Cuphead's developers were for the game to be a success and aside from the delays, it was fairly plain sailing for them.
Edit: Oh, I just saw you edited your post... ages ago, in fact. Well still, this post is kind of aimed at anyone who thinks the developers need to take a solid stance on this. Doing what's morally right isn't always a viable busines decision.
Nitpicker_Red
Member
I don't think I'm framing it that way. At least, it's not about putting a barrier between two sides. My quote uncut:
I express that the best idea is to make the change but not make it a big deal like Yooka Laylee - that way you anger the least amount of people: people actively seeking to avoid JonTron will be content (if they do their research), people wanting JonTron in won't have a public platform to pile on (if no public announcement are made) and people that are unaware will stay unaware.
I was mistaken though, I thought Playtronic posted a Tweet about it, but Yooka Laylee's devs did make an announcement to Gameindustry.biz. People mainly reacted to Jontron's statement about it, and any Tweet that was put out by Playtronic in the vicitiny (bad timing?), and articles covering the removal.
So in total I dunno. Keeping it secret until launch could have postives (minimize drama because swept up by launch discussion) and negatives (some people already gave up on the game).
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, it's hard not to feel bad about it considering you just flat out said that anyone spending money on DQ is supporting his cause
Especially since unlike phones or insert-chinese-sweatshop-products here, it's not like "buying a Dragon Quest game" is important to our daily functions.
Man, I don't know....
So I've read over quite a bit of this thread (not all of it mind you, I probably should later though), but since I'm interested in this game, I feel like I might as well share some of my viewpoints! I got some other stuff on my plate right now sadly, so I'm just gonna organize this into a lazy list lol.
BTW, apologies in advance if this post is redundant and not the most well written... I tend to write too much when I rush!
1: Might as well get this off my chest first: I find the whole JonTron situation to be pretty disgusting. I used to like his videos a lot. I can justify some things with "separate the art from the artist", but after JonTron clearly showed his insane views... I just can't see his fiasco as a "both sides" situation. Dude straight up spewed vile, Nazi horse shit laced with eugenics. There's nothing defensible about that. Seeing him reveal himself to be a racist scumbag, especially to that degree, pretty much sapped all the enjoyment I had from his content. I can't really take anyone that defends him seriously at best either, or view their opinions with extreme contempt at worst. This isn't a "agree to disagree" thing, Jontron's views are harmful, discriminatory garbage that have no place in society, so anyone that explicitly defends them is probably going to get the cold shoulder from me!
2. I don't really agree with the arguments criticizing people's decision to not buy the game. It's not like someone making a judgment call based on a developer's decision will impact your choice to buy the game. If you want to buy the game, nothing's stopping you!
Apologies for going on a tangent in just a moment, but something this thread did make me think about is that a big aspect of life everyone on this forum will have to deal with is making judgement calls on what you're willing to give up to support "evil" things. Sad and cynical as this may sound, I think most of us know that almost everything we use in our lives, rather its cars, phones, video games, or even our clothes, tend to have insidious aspects to their origins.
Of course, there's the topical issue of how eating certain kinds of meat (such as beef) and using automobiles is contributing towards the threat of climate change, and there's the more human focused stuff like our clothes and electronics usually being made in terrible, inhuman working conditions.
Ideally, in a perfect world, I'd love to say "screw all this stuff, I'm boycotting everything!" Considering the fact that we're posting on a video game forum though, I highly doubt any of us are doing something like this! Some of our belongings with depressing origins are essential to our daily lives, such as cars to get to work, computers for college, or meat for nutritional needs. It's hard to boycott things when it might totally screw you over in life!
Of course, there's the more luxury based stuff that honestly, we could totally ignore, but choose not to. To use myself as an example: you can probably guess from my name that I like Nintendo quite a bit, since I'm a huge fan of Mario and Pokemon! However, as a Nintendo fan, I acknowledge that Nintendo does some things I am very uncomfortable with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they use Foxconn to manufacture most of their products, a company that has a very shady past when it comes to treating their employees with respect and a livable wage. Nintendo also licenses a lot of their characters to products that are also likely made in terrible working conditions, such as clothes and toys.
By all accounts, Nintendo's actions sound like they could justify a boycott. And if I decided to boycott Nintendo for the reasons listed above: there would be nothing wrong with that, no matter what other Nintendo fans say! Of course, as you can probably guess, I have not done such a thing. In fact, I've done the opposite: I have almost every Nintendo console, and buy a lot of their games at launch. Hell, I bought a Wii U at launch for god's sake because of New Super Mario Bros U (which by the way, I enjoyed immensely!).
To flip the sides a bit (though to be clear I'm not usually one of those dreaded "both siders" you hear talked about in the off topic forums), I imagine some of you may think I'm at least a bit of a hypocrite for decrying some of Nintendo's ethical issues, yeah lavishing them with support for even some of their biggest failures. I mean... I think you may have a bit of a point, this does seem like a big ethical blindspot on the surface. However, I'd argue that this form of "hypocrisy" is pretty much ingrained into humanity. Not only is it impossible to have information about EVERYTHING that shapes our lives, but it's also a pretty counterproductive waste of time to analyze almost every single action of our lives under the lenses of "I wonder whose life I'm ruining by doing this?" Viewing our daily actions under lens that cynical is pretty paralyzing in my experience, and can ironically prevent yourself from doing actual good things to help make a difference in the world!
I think when it comes to viewing your life actions in a critical lens, it's best to "choose your battles." You can't fix everything in the world, so it's often a good idea to focus on things you're passionate about, or things you feel are possible to do without derailing your life. For example, as someone whose goal is to be employed in the STEM field (specifically, astrophysics in my case), I tend to be pretty passionate about topics related to science, such as GMOs (which I am in full support of due to their positive impacts), fighting climate change, and making sure people know how important the herd immunity vaccines bring is!
It may seem possible to lump my views with another kind of group of opinions I've seen a tinge of in my reading of this thread: that there are way more important issues than boycotting this game over a racist asshole voicing an NPC. It may be true that there are way bigger issues in the world than that, but I actually disagree a lot with this group of opinions as well! Remember when I talked about how some of the things we use in our daily lives has some dark stuff behind them? Well, it just so happens that video games are totally nonessential to living daily life! So if anything, I actually have the opposite opinion on that front: Since video games aren't important for most people's daily lives, then boycotting a video game for almost any reason is totally justifiable! You're not making the world a more terrible place by deciding that for some reason or another, a line has been crossed, and looking else where for your entertainment. I don't think there's anything BAD about it being a relatively easy choice to make compared to say, giving up cars either. In fact, I think that's a pro rather than a con: if you think its an easy choice to boycott A Hat In Time because of Jontron, then you just made a judgement call with likely very little relative cost for yourself, rather than uprooting your life for your morals.
Now on the surface, boycotting a video game over a douchebag voicing a minor NPC is pretty extreme, but like I said earlier, since all this means is "I'm not buying this video game because it crossed a line", I fail to see why it makes much sense to lash out over someone making a minor judgement call in their lives. I see the mindset of "wtf this person doesn't agree with me, they should go to HELL!" a lot in regards to video game opinions. Of course, there's the horrible Gamergate fiasco that I'm sure many of us have groaned over (would love to talk about that later, but alas I'm digressing far enough...), but unfortunately you even occasionally see some instances of it in this very forum, such as rowdy review threads when a reviewer's opinion doesn't line up with the consensus. Maybe it's just me, but I find this to be a really worrying aspect of video game culture,
one that I'd love some more dialogue on how to address (actually I sorta want to make a thread about this later, maybe when I have more time over the weekend...)
Anyways, before I get a bit more on track compared to this huge digression, there's one last thing related to the point of boycotting this game that's on my mind: the idea that "oh it's just niche indie platformer, what's boycotting it going to do?" Yeah, on the surface, you aren't exactly winning a Nobel Peace Prize over coming in this thread and saying "yeah fuck Jontron, I'm taking my business elsewhere." However, I disagree with the idea that you can't do something "good" with the choice of boycotting the game. For people who are choosing to boycott this game, you can totally use your judgement call as a springboard for interesting discussion else where! For example, as far as I remember, Jontron has been pretty popular with kids in the past. Despite how internet savvy kids tend to be these days, I'm sure plenty of them had no idea that he holds opinions that'd make Hitler proud! Maybe you could explain to some loved ones why you think Jontron's discourse is wrong and harmful, and use your boycott as an example of making your voice heard. If you're involved with local politics, maybe you could bring up your boycott as a springboard to start discussion on the troubling effects of bigotry on the internet, or maybe write an op-ed somewhere about your feelings on the issue.
Of course, you can also be like me, and write a long post on a video game forum for no reason other than "I need a break from studying in bed and got some time to kill", "oh this thread made me think some things!", and "man I need to practice my debate skills, they aren't too hot atm!"
3. OK point 2 went on for way too freaking long ROFL, let me keep this one shorter. I think the closest thing I'm on board with the dreaded "both sides" thing here is the developer response. To be clear, I think the correct decision is to at the VERY least, make a statement about Jontron's involvement with the game, and to explain the reasoning for their course of actions. I would also personally prefer that Jontron's voice be removed entirely.
However, from observing the horrible effects Gamergate had on discourse in the video game community... I don't really blame any developer for having a sluggish response in this situation. The alt-right has been an awful vector for internet abuse, such as doxing and death threats. Some of you may remember how figures such as Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu (sidetrack: yes I know Wu said some silly stuff about deadly moon rocks in her run for Congress. I think that was a weird and uninformed thing to say, but that doesn't change my points at all lol) have had huge parts of their life ruined over the simple action of starting dialogue over issues in the video game industry and community. Maybe it's just me, but after seeing that shit storm, I can totally see why a small indie team scattered along the globe may look at those incidents and think "yeah I Jontron is a racist prick, but I'd rather not have my loved ones getting doxed or SWATTED over expressing that" (there's also the whole review bomb thing which sucks, but I think harassment is way more dangerous). In a sense, I think this is a perfectly reasonable judgement call to make: You may not be standing up for what you believe in, but it may not be worth uprooting the life of you and your loved ones over it.
Oh, sorry for not mentioning this earlier, but I'm not 100% informed on the actual devs for this game beyond them being all around the globe. There's the unfortunate chance that some devs of this game may actually AGREE with Jontron's reprehensible viewpoints. That would really suck (and make a boycott even easier to justify in my eyes). Since the Hat in Time devs don't seem to be commenting on this at all, its difficult to assume what the reasoning is. Still, I just wanted to point out that while I'm disappointed in the silence, that I do think there are potentially justifiable reasons for remaining silent.
4. I've rambled on a lot, but I might as well sum up what my actual judgement call on this game is like most of you have! I've known about the game since it was announced long ago, but it really wasn't on my radar till recently. I recently got a gaming laptop to pair with my Nintendo Switch (though I got the other consoles too, I prefer playing on the go).
I have... a strange reason for this game coming on my radar recently. I'm ultra hyped for Super Mario Odyssey, especially since it seems to be fixing a LOT of problems I have with the other sandbox Mario games compared to the linear ones I prefer. Because of my hype, I've been revisiting a lot of retro sandbox platformers such as Banjo-Kazooie in addition to my usual "run through all the mainline Mario's each year" tradition I do. After hearing stuff about Yooka-Laylee from friends that made me think I should probably wait for a sale, I figured Super Mario Odyssey was gonna be the only sandbox platformer I play for the foreseeable future. However, I recently remembered that this game was finally coming out this year, and while it doesn't look mindblowing... I like what I've seen of it thus far, and am fine with plopping down 30 bucks on some retro fun!
So yeah, my interest in this game is very low stakes: I barely paid attention to the kick starter, and know little about the devs or the history behind this game. Upon hearing of the news that Jontron was voicing a character in this game recently, and the developers lack of intention of removing him or even commenting on the situation... I certainly felt very disappointed by the dev's actions. That hasn't changed: I still thing the developers are not handling this situation very well.
And yet... I'm still leaning towards getting this game at launch! Despite my reservations, I'm actually really craving a little collect-a-thon to digest before the exquisite meal that will be Super Mario Odyssey, and A Hat in Time feels like it'd satisfying that craving very well! I know it may seem really anti-climatic to write so much defending people's choices to boycott this game, and then turn around saying "Well I forgot this game existed till recently, and despite hearing that this Nazi fuckhead is voicing an NPC, I'm still probably going to get it at launch.". But, as silly as it is... this is just one of those judgement calls I've been talking about this entire time!
Since Jontron seems to only voice a few NPCs, and he was included way before he revealed his disgusting viewpoints, I guess I don't personally feel like I'm making the statement of supporting bigotry by buying this game. Again, I'm still very disappointed by how the developers have responded to this situation, and like some posters have said: they've had 6 months to do something about it, and yet here we are with the game about to release and no reaction from the devs whatsoever. I'm pretty unhappy about this, but it doesn't cross the "I'm going to boycott line" for me.
Of course, here's the thing with judgement calls: they're very personal! While I'm probably going to be picking this game up on steam at launch, I see nothing wrong with others boycotting the game for the same reasons that I feel aren't major enough to justify my own boycott. We all draw our lines in different places, and considering how much boycotting this game is based off of more "minor" judgement calls, I fail to see the need for vigorously arguing against a person's decision to boycott the game.
Man.. I wrote a lot of stuff for a game I basically view as "this small snack I'm having before Super Mario Odyssey"! Again, apologies if I rambled too much or if my viewpoints are foggy. Strange as it sounds, reading this thread just got me in a self-reflective mood, and I had fun quickly writing these jumbled thoughts down for other people to read!
BTW, apologies in advance if this post is redundant and not the most well written... I tend to write too much when I rush!
1: Might as well get this off my chest first: I find the whole JonTron situation to be pretty disgusting. I used to like his videos a lot. I can justify some things with "separate the art from the artist", but after JonTron clearly showed his insane views... I just can't see his fiasco as a "both sides" situation. Dude straight up spewed vile, Nazi horse shit laced with eugenics. There's nothing defensible about that. Seeing him reveal himself to be a racist scumbag, especially to that degree, pretty much sapped all the enjoyment I had from his content. I can't really take anyone that defends him seriously at best either, or view their opinions with extreme contempt at worst. This isn't a "agree to disagree" thing, Jontron's views are harmful, discriminatory garbage that have no place in society, so anyone that explicitly defends them is probably going to get the cold shoulder from me!
2. I don't really agree with the arguments criticizing people's decision to not buy the game. It's not like someone making a judgment call based on a developer's decision will impact your choice to buy the game. If you want to buy the game, nothing's stopping you!
Apologies for going on a tangent in just a moment, but something this thread did make me think about is that a big aspect of life everyone on this forum will have to deal with is making judgement calls on what you're willing to give up to support "evil" things. Sad and cynical as this may sound, I think most of us know that almost everything we use in our lives, rather its cars, phones, video games, or even our clothes, tend to have insidious aspects to their origins.
Of course, there's the topical issue of how eating certain kinds of meat (such as beef) and using automobiles is contributing towards the threat of climate change, and there's the more human focused stuff like our clothes and electronics usually being made in terrible, inhuman working conditions.
Ideally, in a perfect world, I'd love to say "screw all this stuff, I'm boycotting everything!" Considering the fact that we're posting on a video game forum though, I highly doubt any of us are doing something like this! Some of our belongings with depressing origins are essential to our daily lives, such as cars to get to work, computers for college, or meat for nutritional needs. It's hard to boycott things when it might totally screw you over in life!
Of course, there's the more luxury based stuff that honestly, we could totally ignore, but choose not to. To use myself as an example: you can probably guess from my name that I like Nintendo quite a bit, since I'm a huge fan of Mario and Pokemon! However, as a Nintendo fan, I acknowledge that Nintendo does some things I am very uncomfortable with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they use Foxconn to manufacture most of their products, a company that has a very shady past when it comes to treating their employees with respect and a livable wage. Nintendo also licenses a lot of their characters to products that are also likely made in terrible working conditions, such as clothes and toys.
By all accounts, Nintendo's actions sound like they could justify a boycott. And if I decided to boycott Nintendo for the reasons listed above: there would be nothing wrong with that, no matter what other Nintendo fans say! Of course, as you can probably guess, I have not done such a thing. In fact, I've done the opposite: I have almost every Nintendo console, and buy a lot of their games at launch. Hell, I bought a Wii U at launch for god's sake because of New Super Mario Bros U (which by the way, I enjoyed immensely!).
To flip the sides a bit (though to be clear I'm not usually one of those dreaded "both siders" you hear talked about in the off topic forums), I imagine some of you may think I'm at least a bit of a hypocrite for decrying some of Nintendo's ethical issues, yeah lavishing them with support for even some of their biggest failures. I mean... I think you may have a bit of a point, this does seem like a big ethical blindspot on the surface. However, I'd argue that this form of "hypocrisy" is pretty much ingrained into humanity. Not only is it impossible to have information about EVERYTHING that shapes our lives, but it's also a pretty counterproductive waste of time to analyze almost every single action of our lives under the lenses of "I wonder whose life I'm ruining by doing this?" Viewing our daily actions under lens that cynical is pretty paralyzing in my experience, and can ironically prevent yourself from doing actual good things to help make a difference in the world!
I think when it comes to viewing your life actions in a critical lens, it's best to "choose your battles." You can't fix everything in the world, so it's often a good idea to focus on things you're passionate about, or things you feel are possible to do without derailing your life. For example, as someone whose goal is to be employed in the STEM field (specifically, astrophysics in my case), I tend to be pretty passionate about topics related to science, such as GMOs (which I am in full support of due to their positive impacts), fighting climate change, and making sure people know how important the herd immunity vaccines bring is!
It may seem possible to lump my views with another kind of group of opinions I've seen a tinge of in my reading of this thread: that there are way more important issues than boycotting this game over a racist asshole voicing an NPC. It may be true that there are way bigger issues in the world than that, but I actually disagree a lot with this group of opinions as well! Remember when I talked about how some of the things we use in our daily lives has some dark stuff behind them? Well, it just so happens that video games are totally nonessential to living daily life! So if anything, I actually have the opposite opinion on that front: Since video games aren't important for most people's daily lives, then boycotting a video game for almost any reason is totally justifiable! You're not making the world a more terrible place by deciding that for some reason or another, a line has been crossed, and looking else where for your entertainment. I don't think there's anything BAD about it being a relatively easy choice to make compared to say, giving up cars either. In fact, I think that's a pro rather than a con: if you think its an easy choice to boycott A Hat In Time because of Jontron, then you just made a judgement call with likely very little relative cost for yourself, rather than uprooting your life for your morals.
Now on the surface, boycotting a video game over a douchebag voicing a minor NPC is pretty extreme, but like I said earlier, since all this means is "I'm not buying this video game because it crossed a line", I fail to see why it makes much sense to lash out over someone making a minor judgement call in their lives. I see the mindset of "wtf this person doesn't agree with me, they should go to HELL!" a lot in regards to video game opinions. Of course, there's the horrible Gamergate fiasco that I'm sure many of us have groaned over (would love to talk about that later, but alas I'm digressing far enough...), but unfortunately you even occasionally see some instances of it in this very forum, such as rowdy review threads when a reviewer's opinion doesn't line up with the consensus. Maybe it's just me, but I find this to be a really worrying aspect of video game culture,
one that I'd love some more dialogue on how to address (actually I sorta want to make a thread about this later, maybe when I have more time over the weekend...)
Anyways, before I get a bit more on track compared to this huge digression, there's one last thing related to the point of boycotting this game that's on my mind: the idea that "oh it's just niche indie platformer, what's boycotting it going to do?" Yeah, on the surface, you aren't exactly winning a Nobel Peace Prize over coming in this thread and saying "yeah fuck Jontron, I'm taking my business elsewhere." However, I disagree with the idea that you can't do something "good" with the choice of boycotting the game. For people who are choosing to boycott this game, you can totally use your judgement call as a springboard for interesting discussion else where! For example, as far as I remember, Jontron has been pretty popular with kids in the past. Despite how internet savvy kids tend to be these days, I'm sure plenty of them had no idea that he holds opinions that'd make Hitler proud! Maybe you could explain to some loved ones why you think Jontron's discourse is wrong and harmful, and use your boycott as an example of making your voice heard. If you're involved with local politics, maybe you could bring up your boycott as a springboard to start discussion on the troubling effects of bigotry on the internet, or maybe write an op-ed somewhere about your feelings on the issue.
Of course, you can also be like me, and write a long post on a video game forum for no reason other than "I need a break from studying in bed and got some time to kill", "oh this thread made me think some things!", and "man I need to practice my debate skills, they aren't too hot atm!"
3. OK point 2 went on for way too freaking long ROFL, let me keep this one shorter. I think the closest thing I'm on board with the dreaded "both sides" thing here is the developer response. To be clear, I think the correct decision is to at the VERY least, make a statement about Jontron's involvement with the game, and to explain the reasoning for their course of actions. I would also personally prefer that Jontron's voice be removed entirely.
However, from observing the horrible effects Gamergate had on discourse in the video game community... I don't really blame any developer for having a sluggish response in this situation. The alt-right has been an awful vector for internet abuse, such as doxing and death threats. Some of you may remember how figures such as Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu (sidetrack: yes I know Wu said some silly stuff about deadly moon rocks in her run for Congress. I think that was a weird and uninformed thing to say, but that doesn't change my points at all lol) have had huge parts of their life ruined over the simple action of starting dialogue over issues in the video game industry and community. Maybe it's just me, but after seeing that shit storm, I can totally see why a small indie team scattered along the globe may look at those incidents and think "yeah I Jontron is a racist prick, but I'd rather not have my loved ones getting doxed or SWATTED over expressing that" (there's also the whole review bomb thing which sucks, but I think harassment is way more dangerous). In a sense, I think this is a perfectly reasonable judgement call to make: You may not be standing up for what you believe in, but it may not be worth uprooting the life of you and your loved ones over it.
Oh, sorry for not mentioning this earlier, but I'm not 100% informed on the actual devs for this game beyond them being all around the globe. There's the unfortunate chance that some devs of this game may actually AGREE with Jontron's reprehensible viewpoints. That would really suck (and make a boycott even easier to justify in my eyes). Since the Hat in Time devs don't seem to be commenting on this at all, its difficult to assume what the reasoning is. Still, I just wanted to point out that while I'm disappointed in the silence, that I do think there are potentially justifiable reasons for remaining silent.
4. I've rambled on a lot, but I might as well sum up what my actual judgement call on this game is like most of you have! I've known about the game since it was announced long ago, but it really wasn't on my radar till recently. I recently got a gaming laptop to pair with my Nintendo Switch (though I got the other consoles too, I prefer playing on the go).
I have... a strange reason for this game coming on my radar recently. I'm ultra hyped for Super Mario Odyssey, especially since it seems to be fixing a LOT of problems I have with the other sandbox Mario games compared to the linear ones I prefer. Because of my hype, I've been revisiting a lot of retro sandbox platformers such as Banjo-Kazooie in addition to my usual "run through all the mainline Mario's each year" tradition I do. After hearing stuff about Yooka-Laylee from friends that made me think I should probably wait for a sale, I figured Super Mario Odyssey was gonna be the only sandbox platformer I play for the foreseeable future. However, I recently remembered that this game was finally coming out this year, and while it doesn't look mindblowing... I like what I've seen of it thus far, and am fine with plopping down 30 bucks on some retro fun!
So yeah, my interest in this game is very low stakes: I barely paid attention to the kick starter, and know little about the devs or the history behind this game. Upon hearing of the news that Jontron was voicing a character in this game recently, and the developers lack of intention of removing him or even commenting on the situation... I certainly felt very disappointed by the dev's actions. That hasn't changed: I still thing the developers are not handling this situation very well.
And yet... I'm still leaning towards getting this game at launch! Despite my reservations, I'm actually really craving a little collect-a-thon to digest before the exquisite meal that will be Super Mario Odyssey, and A Hat in Time feels like it'd satisfying that craving very well! I know it may seem really anti-climatic to write so much defending people's choices to boycott this game, and then turn around saying "Well I forgot this game existed till recently, and despite hearing that this Nazi fuckhead is voicing an NPC, I'm still probably going to get it at launch.". But, as silly as it is... this is just one of those judgement calls I've been talking about this entire time!
Since Jontron seems to only voice a few NPCs, and he was included way before he revealed his disgusting viewpoints, I guess I don't personally feel like I'm making the statement of supporting bigotry by buying this game. Again, I'm still very disappointed by how the developers have responded to this situation, and like some posters have said: they've had 6 months to do something about it, and yet here we are with the game about to release and no reaction from the devs whatsoever. I'm pretty unhappy about this, but it doesn't cross the "I'm going to boycott line" for me.
Of course, here's the thing with judgement calls: they're very personal! While I'm probably going to be picking this game up on steam at launch, I see nothing wrong with others boycotting the game for the same reasons that I feel aren't major enough to justify my own boycott. We all draw our lines in different places, and considering how much boycotting this game is based off of more "minor" judgement calls, I fail to see the need for vigorously arguing against a person's decision to boycott the game.
Man.. I wrote a lot of stuff for a game I basically view as "this small snack I'm having before Super Mario Odyssey"! Again, apologies if I rambled too much or if my viewpoints are foggy. Strange as it sounds, reading this thread just got me in a self-reflective mood, and I had fun quickly writing these jumbled thoughts down for other people to read!
Well, it's hard not to feel bad about it considering you just flat out said that anyone spending money on DQ is supporting his cause
Especially since unlike phones or insert-chinese-sweatshop-products here, it's not like "buying a Dragon Quest game" is important to our daily functions.
Man, I don't know....
No I said CDs and concerts. It's very specific. Sugiyama may get a cut out of every DQ game sold, possibly, I don't really know the details, but it can't be that much (even though it adds up because it's a multi million selling game). Where Sugiyama REALLY rakes in the dough is from selling the music itself specifically, because he owns the rights to his own music. This is also why it is believed that he is against orchestrated music being used in the games because he wants to make them exclusive to his albums releases and concert performances.
Of course boycotting DQ because of Sugiyama is fine. No one needs DQ as you say. But not buying his soundtracks or supporting his performances if you don't want money going into the garbage he does is much more important of a point.
Is this also why he seems crazy heavy on copyright laws? Wasn't this part of the reason for that weird Twitch "ban" on Dragon Quest Heroes music in streams, even if it was from the game?
Nights Owl
Member
Just out of curiosity, what's the general consensus of buying a used copy of games with a controversial figure that's worked on or is in the game?
I'd assume it'd be a way to play the games without giving any *more* money to the issue that may be plaguing the game(s)?
I've always been interested in DQ, so I really wanna give it a shot, but yeah. Not a fan of what I've learned about the composer.
I'd assume it'd be a way to play the games without giving any *more* money to the issue that may be plaguing the game(s)?
I've always been interested in DQ, so I really wanna give it a shot, but yeah. Not a fan of what I've learned about the composer.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think in the Yooka-Laylee discussion I made clear that I do not think it is important what the political views of a single person working on the project, especially in a minor position, are and I do not want to catch another ban over this stance (especially since I feel much less invested in Hat in Time than Yooka-Laylee, which is the successor to one of the best games ever made, by some of the most talented developers out there - and which turned out to be mighty awesome as well).
I do have to question though, why this topic had to be made now, directly before the release, putting a small and obviously passionate team of developers of which we have no indication they are racists (and it would surprise me in a big way, having met some of them at gamescom) in a very difficult position. Even the very experienced team at Playtonic had trouble finding a proper reaction and were probably significantly hurt, financially, by this discussion. At the same time, it was already well-known that Jontron's voice was still in A Hat in Time at the time, so why put the pressure on the developers now, when the game is already submitted and any response they have now will likely harm their launch in a similar way Yooka-Laylee was hurt?
I feel bad for the team about this situation. I am not questioning why it has to be discussed at all, because I see that obviously there are a lot of people who care enough about such minor involvements, as evident by the size of this and Yooka's previous thread. But the timing appears to be really mean-spirited. You had months to discuss this without directly interfering with the launch in advance. If you wanted to make sure Jontron really is still in there, you could have waited until right after launch to make sure he is in there. If he is still in there and you just want to make sure that he is gone when you play it, it is also the worst timing, because if he is still in there, he will still be in there at launch, considering time for certification of updates. So you gain nothing out of this being pre-launch. As it stands, there is no benefit in the choice of the timing.
Note that I am only asking this because I feel it would be fair, in the future, to have such threads - whenever possible - significantly in advance or post-launch, but not right in the middle of launch where it is the most hurtful for the developers, no matter how and if they act on it. I would appreciate a different timing at least for those cases where it is clear that it was not a concious decision to have a racist on the team, but where it only turned out to be the case after the work was already done and probably paid for.
On a side note, since I know this is also something that is important to fellow GAF users: The main character is a girl and at least one major position in the small dev team (character designer) is filled by a woman (who, from my experience at Gamescom, was quite sympathic and enthusiastic about the game, no indication whatsoever that she shares any racist positions, at all).
I do have to question though, why this topic had to be made now, directly before the release, putting a small and obviously passionate team of developers of which we have no indication they are racists (and it would surprise me in a big way, having met some of them at gamescom) in a very difficult position. Even the very experienced team at Playtonic had trouble finding a proper reaction and were probably significantly hurt, financially, by this discussion. At the same time, it was already well-known that Jontron's voice was still in A Hat in Time at the time, so why put the pressure on the developers now, when the game is already submitted and any response they have now will likely harm their launch in a similar way Yooka-Laylee was hurt?
I feel bad for the team about this situation. I am not questioning why it has to be discussed at all, because I see that obviously there are a lot of people who care enough about such minor involvements, as evident by the size of this and Yooka's previous thread. But the timing appears to be really mean-spirited. You had months to discuss this without directly interfering with the launch in advance. If you wanted to make sure Jontron really is still in there, you could have waited until right after launch to make sure he is in there. If he is still in there and you just want to make sure that he is gone when you play it, it is also the worst timing, because if he is still in there, he will still be in there at launch, considering time for certification of updates. So you gain nothing out of this being pre-launch. As it stands, there is no benefit in the choice of the timing.
Note that I am only asking this because I feel it would be fair, in the future, to have such threads - whenever possible - significantly in advance or post-launch, but not right in the middle of launch where it is the most hurtful for the developers, no matter how and if they act on it. I would appreciate a different timing at least for those cases where it is clear that it was not a concious decision to have a racist on the team, but where it only turned out to be the case after the work was already done and probably paid for.
On a side note, since I know this is also something that is important to fellow GAF users: The main character is a girl and at least one major position in the small dev team (character designer) is filled by a woman (who, from my experience at Gamescom, was quite sympathic and enthusiastic about the game, no indication whatsoever that she shares any racist positions, at all).
MotionBlue
Member
I forgot this was coming out, if it reviews well I will still get it.
There is more outrage over a closet-altright youtuber cameo, than there is about actual exploitation in the industry. Which is gross.
There is more outrage over a closet-altright youtuber cameo, than there is about actual exploitation in the industry. Which is gross.
It's possible but I haven't really heard anything definitive myself. JASRAC (Japan's RIAA) is known to be a stick in the mud though.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Just as a side note: If you avoided Yooka-Laylee and are looking for an appetizer for Mario Odyssey, I would actually adivse to play Yooka before A Hat in Time. Of course, the Gamescom demo may not be finished, yet, but let me say this: A Hat in Time seems to shape up to be a fun and competently-made 3d platformer, which I am looking forward to playing, but its gameplay mechanics are very sloppy when compared to Yooka-Laylee, especially the jumping physics. What I have seen of the level design also seemed weaker to me. This is not to put down A Hat in Time, because it still was a lot of fun for me, but I feel that Yooka-Laylee is very likely going to clearly be the better game.
Sailent
Banned
Being a Nazi doesn't mean tattooing an swastika and yelling "Heil Hitler".
I don't think anyone here owes anything to the development team, small or not, as to when to start discussions that could paint their game in a bad light. The onus should be on them to handle the situation, or at the very least, communicate.
Oh, I know they risked homelessness. What I meant by plain sailing was that they didn't run into any problems like this during the development.
But I would say it is risky.
Personally I don't think they support nazis or even look like they do, due to the fact that his work with them has finished and had been long before any of this came out. That's a fairly extreme view and one I don't think is too prevalent.
But if they come out and do anything about this now that his involvement has already been announced, this story will blow up from the resulting news coverage. Perhaps Jon Tron and his fans won't be all that bothered, but it's not a chance I'd want to take if I were in their shoes.
Its a touchy subject but I think equating what JonTron said in a debate (which he then apologised for in a separate vid) and what these devs think politically is a clutching at straws a bit.
You can't seriously think that the devs are Nazi supporters because of this, 2017 seems to be the year of trying to find political messages in everything.
You can't seriously think that the devs are Nazi supporters because of this, 2017 seems to be the year of trying to find political messages in everything.
I'd forgotten about the JonTron controversy, so I'm glad this was brought up and I'm now more aware of the issue. Sorely disappointed to find out that he's in the game and still in it. Guess I'll have to give it a pass now then. Regardless of how much I'm looking forward to the game, I believe that by supporting it, I would be supporting the idea that it's alright to keep the works of racist bigots in games (and other media) even after they were "outed."
I've never heard of anything regarding DQ's composer, mind expounding on this a bit?
I've never heard of anything regarding DQ's composer, mind expounding on this a bit?
This article will cover it, but the gist of it is that Koichi Sugiyam is a negationist that firmly believes that the Rape of Nanking (among other war crimes and Japan's involvement in the Second World War) simply didn't take place and the years of testimony and research support is actually a collection of "fallacies, distortions, biases and factual errors".
It get's pretty ugly, and I honestly can't see the man in the same light.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Honest question: do you really think his apology meant anything at all? How do you think someone apologizes for saying, among a hundred other horrible things, foreigners should not enter the gene pool?
Remember, JonTron wasn't really "involved in a debate". He was asked on a streamers show to specifically discuss views that he had already stated. The only topic of debate were his own words. Also remember that PlayTronic had responded to this very same situation by instantly cutting JonTron from their game.
You're gonna have a very hard time convincing me or anyone else that the devs can't easily replace what others have already said are a few lines by someone that is a toxic figure to the community, industry, and humanity.
NHarmonic.
Member
Oh yeah, youtuber apology videos, just like pewdiepie ones? Cool. That solves it.
Most of these youtuber gaming figures are absolute trash that spread their shitty views in their platforms, perpetuating racism and contaminating children, under the pretext of jokes, fun, and videogames.
If gaming as a medium, as a community, is going to finally change for the better then the minimum requirement is devs actually speaking about these issues and not go into hiding. I'm pretty sure in any other medium someone saying the shit jontron said wouldn't fly as easily as you point out, with an apology video, and nothing else. There would be consequences, artistic, economic, whatever. But in gaming we just let it go, because the fanbase is already so toxic that they fear that they'll lose them and their money.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Yes, no one owes them anything, but especially for small teams like Playtonic or the Hat in Time team, I would appreciate a bit of carefulness, because I feel it is a bit unfair that games which have no big PR company behind them are treated this way if there is some input from a questionable person, whereas big company games like Dragon Quest are not met with such huge complaints. Small teams have a much harder time reacting on such requests and suffer all the more from heavy dicussions and attack associated with this. Please, look up what happened to Playtonic after they removed Jontron, certainly in parts due to the strong pressure from here. If the few precious days surrounding launch are dominated by such a discussion, it is supremely harmful to the team, potentially putting the whole project into a delicate position. So I would find it to be more respectful, if given the chance, to discuss such a topic outside of this important window, if it is possible.
Of course, anyone can discuss this at any time, if one wishes and I do not ask for this to be shut down now, but it is just a request to maybe keep in mind that if such a thing can be discussed way in advance, it would help small enthusiastic teams to deal with it without having their project being blown up by side-discussions.
TeamLeftMatch
Member
Wait a minute, so your telling me the reason DQ 7 and 8 3ds has that midi music over the orchestrated soundtrack is so that he can sell his music and concerts. Well fuck him harder for that on top of his WWII denying views.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
You don't need a million dollars put into PR to discuss this issue.
You just need one of the dev leads making a statement.
The amount of people in this thread defending this shit is astounding. Do you not realize that saying "think of the poor indie devs" makes you look like a ridiculous asshole? As for what Playtronics did, they did on their own. They didn't want a white supremacist associated with their game. You're honestly going to tell me that JonTron going on Twitch and ranting about how we need to protect White Purity was less of an issue for them than bad reviews from fellow racists?
ScientificPizza
Banned
Then if the lesson they learn is were fine with racism i will continue to not support them. Again, very very simple
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Of course you do not need a lot of PR money to discuss this issue, but you need it to deal with what any discussion of the issue will lead to.
- Say you are not changing this, then you have a huge discussion how A Hat in Time supports racism.
- Say you are changing this, then you have a brigade of alt-right assholes sabotaging the game's launch deliberately.
It is quite a shit position to be in (EDIT: And let me add: One they did not willingly put themselves into, their deal with Jontron was well in advance of racist comments). If the topic is brought up months in advance in a prominent way like it was here, it gives the developers the fair chance to pick option 2 with quite a bit of time left for the alt-right attackers to cool down afterwards.
With a huge PR team and a lot of money, you have of course the chance to pick whatever you like close to launch still and to have other points and merits of your game still prominently discussed. Compare how much discussion there is on A Hat in Time in general on GAF and how much there is regarding Jontron now. Compare how much discussion there is e.g. on DQ11 on GAF in general and how much there is in regards to its composer. This is something that is associated with the size of the project and the corresponding publishing company.
EDIT: Regarding the question you added: Morally it probably was not less of an issue, but financially, yes, it was less of an issue, because this deliberate attack of huge groups of mobs on the perception of the game close to launch most certainly damaged the early sales significantly.
I'm sorry but the suggestion to tip-toe around anything controversial about a game around its launch period is absurd. The size of a team and their enthusiasm have no bearing on when something problematic should be discussed. Should potential customers not know all the facts? Should people who dislike JonTron not be aware that he's voicing a character in this game?
You say this is unfair but it's a problem that is mostly of the developer's own making. They couldn't have predicted that a YouTube personality would have come out as a fucking racist but they can be faulted for their response and reaction (or lack thereof) to it, especially when another developer has been in the exact same situation and done the right thing.
Yeah we better continue to condone the racists in case the alt-right assholes sabotage something. We have no choice!
Sad to see that only topic about this awesome game here is just politics witchunt about some random asshole youtuber that did VO....
Yeah the Dude is a blatant Nazi and is preaching this shit to his kiddy fanbase but this small indie studio couldn't have possibly known that back then. Yeah would be nice if they reacted but they are in prerelease phase stressing over actuall launch and not some minor bullshit related to politics that enrages people to rage about politics and agendas who mostly dont really care about the game itself anyway .
thx politics,thx youtuboobers, thx murica
Yeah the Dude is a blatant Nazi and is preaching this shit to his kiddy fanbase but this small indie studio couldn't have possibly known that back then. Yeah would be nice if they reacted but they are in prerelease phase stressing over actuall launch and not some minor bullshit related to politics that enrages people to rage about politics and agendas who mostly dont really care about the game itself anyway .
thx politics,thx youtuboobers, thx murica
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I am sorry if this is what you get out of what I asked for. This was just an analysis of the likely outcome of either reaction from the developer's perspective. All I was asking for was bringing this up, prominently, earlier, if it is possible, in the future, out of respect for the work of the developers, especially if it is a small developer who will have a hard time dealing with the repercussions of said alt-right assholes. If it is an issue that is close to your heart and you did not see it earlier, then well, so be it, but is it such a nasty thing to ask for, to try to address this prominently as early as possible so that the intended / wanted reaction from the development team has the least negativ effect on them?
This issue has been discussed in multiple threads about this game in the past. It's not a new thing. People will discuss what they want to discuss. You are not a moderator, and honestly given your record on this forum, we have little interest in taking anything you say about these issues in good faith. No one is forcing your to continue to post in this thread. For someone who claimed he isn't invested in this issue at all you sure are batting hard.
Diprosalic
Banned
I would be proud of an alt-right backlash.
Joey Jo-Jo Jr
Member
Looking forward to the game. Wasn't aware it was out so soon,
and full steam workshop support too!
Though I imagine the steam forums won't be too happy about a JonTron voice swap mod
I'm sure there are other games with racist people involved in them but some of you still buy them for example; Mass effect Andromeda. I enjoyed it at as a game even though I didn't appreciate the things their game designer said. It's really your choice if you want to purchase the product or not but you cannot fault the company for legal obligations.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I am heavily invested in 3d platformers, because they are my favourite genre and only now, through indies, are they trying to make a comeback, after years of absence outside of Nintendo.
I have backed Yookay-Laylee, I would have bought it otherwise, no matter if Jontron was in there or not, I have not badmouthed Yooka-Laylee in any way, neither when it was looking like Jontron was staying in there, nor when he was out (granted, I was banned when the result came up, but since you had a look into my posting history: Do you see anything afterwards where you suspect I had a grudge against the developers of the game? If you feel unsure about it, I have the same name on the Playtonic forum, there you can see my immediate reaction). I really do not understand what you want to insinuate here. I am really feeling a bit at a loss here, because it is quite difficult to be told you are being seen as dubious when you are exactly saying what you feel and think. It would really be helpful if you could tell me, here or in private, what you suspect of me so I can better address this in my further posting behaviour. I hope, at the very least, if your suspicion was that I was secretly rooting for Jontron to be in this or any game at all, I could clear this up.
CaviarMeths
Member
Very old part of this thread by now, but I did not know this and now I feel gross for having bought it. Fuck me.
Fourmyle of Ceres
Member
The game will be open source? That's very cool. Why this shit gotta happen to the best...?
Arguing from a developer's point of view and stanning for them does customers - us - no favours. You're clearly invested too heavily in this. You may want to take a step back.
Thank you for your well-reasoned, thought-out post that actually acknowledges the complexities of navigating the ethical and moral quandaries of our world.
We live in a world that constantly requires that you both engage with and tacitly support evil. We have to pick our battles. I think the amount of judgment cast upon others for not picking the same exact battles is very disheartening - because I guarantee that everyone here crosses someone else's lines.
Meat-eating I feel is a fantastic example. Probably pretty uncontroversial thigh among the majority of the posters in this thread. I would put my foot down and say that by eating meat you are supporting the horrible impact it has on our climate, resources, and the welfare of factory farmed animals - something far more insidious, dangerous, and damaging than a video game using audio from a racist they already paid, and won't be paying more with he money you spend to buy the game.
And yet, I don't expect anyone to stop eating meat though. I won't stop! Because being a human navigating this world and our own limitations is HARD, and meat is far too culturally and nutritionally ingrained in my lifestyle.
My mind drifts to the phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". We are all complicit with at least some evil. If you think you are not, I would posit you sre ill-informed. Don't be so judgmental.
Obviously I would never shame anyone for this being a battle they DO pick either. I'm not trying to say it "makes them dumb for caring about something small". It's a perfectly valid line to have, and if the aHiT developers crossed it for you, then that's fair.
(To note: I am not interested in this game and I don't actually know whether or not this crossed a line for me or not. I suspect not, but it's not like the situation doesn't make me feel a bit uncomfortable.)
Blahblahblah.
I'm just saying for someone who posted this:
You sure seem invested in spending a lot of time in this thread telling people why they shouldn't be talking about this so much or telling people how and when they should talk about this.
Pro-tip: I'm trying to politely tell you that your attempt to shape how people talk about an issue is not welcome.
He is a Rape of Nanking denier.
primovinny
Member
To be honest his original post was asking why this has been brought back to light 2 days before release. Most of the answers have been that this is worth discussing and "how dare you want to stop this conversation!" I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer to his question as well. Why OP brought this just before release? Why not during E3? Why not when Yooka-Laylee was released? I'm not saying that his views (JonTron) are right, but neoGAF is well known in this stance and knowing this it seems like OP wants to sabotage this game release.
We all want to live in a perfect world, hand holds and sing kumbayah, but gosh this is not how it works. They are releasing a game and are dealing with everything that happens at this time. I'm sorry to say it, but they need to focus on the game right now. The biggest proof that they care would be to release a functional and fun game, if they diverge time and people to deal with JonTron now that may affect the game launch quality and reviews. Again, what JonTron said is gross, I'm not protecting him. I'm saying that there is a time and a place for everything. Sadly the internet made people lose track of this and so they want everything right here and right now. Patience people, I'm sure the devs will speak about this AFTER the game is released.
If you still want an answer or a resolution right now I can't help but feel sorry for you, hope life treats you gently.
WarioFan63
Member
This kind of goes all over the place. You call it a witch hunt but recognize he's a Nazi but also downplay it as minor politics?
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Just a quick comment to anyone who has answered to my last few postings or anyone who may do this in the future: I take duckroll's posting as a clear indicator it is strongly advised not to post anything in this thread anymore, so if I do not answer your postings, it is not out of disrespect. If someone wants to have an answer to or an explanation of something I have posted here, please contact me via PM, so I can give it to you without interfering with others.
SomedayTheFire
Member
- Status