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After replaying Mario World, I realized it's not all that. 3, YI and NSMBU are better

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I'm honestly baffled by this happening. For the longest time, I thought Super Mario World was the better game between it and 3. I also, just in general, had a much higher opinion of the game. My parents bought it for me close to its release along with the SNES, and I played the game a lot over the years. Especially as I was a child. I also played the game every once in a while in my teenage and adult life. The last time I played the game was in the summer of 2011 (I believe). But as I finished the game yesterday, and as I woke up this morning, I just kept thinking about it, and I had to admit to myself: the game actually isn't all that.

-The levels aren't as inventive or well-designed as they should be. First, you know how Mario games are known for having levels that each have their own little quirks? Most levels in Mario World aren't that. They're just composed of terrain, pits and enemies sprinkled here and there with no "signature" whatsoever. Second, even without a signature, most of these not-distinct levels aren't that elaborate. Just one exemple: in Vanilla Secret 1, all you have to do is avoid some koopas that are here and there, while climbing ropes and using one spring to get up to a pipe. And then the exit is there. I finished this level and thought to myself "what the fuck is this? What?". Then as I played the rest of the game, I was stunned by how many stale and uninspired levels there were. Most of the great levels are the SPECIAL ones, the castles and fortresses. Apart from these, the levels in the last world are also of the better quality. But most of the rest? Man, even some of the Star World levels are boring. Think of the levels in SMB3: the pipe levels in World 7, World 4 with the big enemies and that one level that lets you switch between big and small world, or World 5 that starts pretty normally but then you climb this fuckin' pyramid and you end up in the clouds.

-The art design, or theme, for each world isn't unique. You know how Super Mario Bros. 3 has a theme for each world? World 2: desert; world 3: water; etc; and how the levels (at least most of them) in each of these worlds feel like they belong there? For the most part, that is very much not the case in World. You can take almost any level, put it in another world, and it would fit. There's nothing that distinguishes Yoshi's Island (World 1) from Donut Plain or the outside of Vanilla Dome. Similarly, the inside of Vanilla Dome has levels that are artistically the same as those from the last world, Bowser's Valley. The only two worlds that look unique are Forest of Illusion and the next world, Chocolate something. But even then, Chocolate something only switches the color palette for its terrain from yellowish brown to dark brown. You could even have taken the Butter Bridge levels and put them back in Donut Plain and it wouldn't have been off. Like... how the hell isn't there a Snow World in this game? Christ the devs even made some ice and snow tiles that are used in two levels only: one in a cave (Donut Secret), and one outside (in SPECIAL). Or a Desert world? You know, staples of the sidescrolling Mario games that started back in SMB2! Or they could have at least taken some of the water levels and put them in their own water world and called it "Soda Oasis" (to keep with the food theme) with its own Fortress and Castle. This actually leads me to my next point:

-The game doesn't have as many levels as the other Mario games. World has 70 levels (not counting the four palace Switches or the Bonus powerful level). SMB3 has a whooping 90 levels, all put in eight worlds that look (and even play) different. New Super Mario Bros. U has 82 levels, again, all with their own theme. So on top of levels that are often similarly-designed to each other and look like each other: the game has fewer levels than it should. I guess you could say it was a blessing in a way...

-The world map is stale. As in, nothing happens on it. In SMB3, there would be hammer bros. that would block your way, card games that would appear, the super-secret floating money ship, the levels in world 8 where a hand would grab you to force you to play it. World has an interconnected map, and that's great, but it doesn't compensate.

-The potential of Yoshis with different abilities is squandered. They bother putting in Yoshis of different colors, but only the blue one is really that useful. Both the yellow and red yoshis serve nothing of value. Seriously, who here replayed those Star World levels to get a yellow or red yoshi? The devs could have given each different-colored yoshi some meaningful ability, and design some levels around these abilities, but no. Let's go further: how about levels in which different paths open up depending on the color/ability of your Yoshi? Why couldn't we have that?

-The enemies are either boring or bad:


  • The game doesn't even have goombas. It has some other faux-goomba that lets you wonder "why couldn't they just put in a regular-ass goomba in the game?"
  • The dinosaurs are bad. They walk toward you at a slow pace and are a non-threat. I guess the little ones spew fire, but it takes them a while for the AI to decide to do that, and by then, you've either jumped on them or run past them.
  • Where are the hammer bros.? Both were in the original game and 3. There's some variant of the hammer bros that appears exclusively on some floating platform that goes back and forth, but it doesn't feel like the same enemy. That enemy is also kind of boring, and appears in maybe five or six levels only.
  • Those footballer guys. What is even this design? Why would there be footballers in a dinosaur world? It doesn't even fit it with the rest of the (uninteresting) art style. Though they are more of a threat than most of the other enemies. They almost feel like the true replacement to the hammer bros. But then you're force to ask yourself: why couldn't they just put in hammer bros? Or at the very least, redesign the enemy to look like a Koopa in sports gear or something. Not an actual dude who plays football.
  • Where is Big Bertha? They couldn't have made one water level with that big-ass fish trying to swallow you? They made those dolphins that jump super-high to serve as platforms for you to jump on. They could have made a Big Bertha that also jumps that high to try to swallow you. That would have made for a pretty cool subversion of expectations, as in SMB3, it didn't jump high at all. It would have also added some much-needed unique design, the lack of which I complained about earlier.
-The game is piss-easy. I played through the game last night by not doing the palace switches until I was done with the rest of the game. It was the first time I played the game like that. Even then, the game was too easy. I barely got any challenge. SMB3, YI and NSMBU, on the other hand, offer plenty of challenge. Better-designed levels, for sure.

-The Ghost Houses are lesser versions of the Fortresses from SMB3. That Fortress in SMB3 where you turn the whole room into coins, or the other one with lots of doors with the lava, or the one in world 3 with the water and the doors. Only the fortresses of the first two worlds are run-of-the-mill. The other ones are fantastic, and more moody and spooky than the actual Ghost Houses of World.

They developed this game for three years! That's a long-ass time for a game that started development in the eighties. Games back then took much shorter to develop. What happened? What were they doing? Why is this game so short? Why does it have such an unvaried artstyle? Why are most of the levels cookie-cutters?

I'm truly baffled by this sudden epiphany. I feel like I'm having this moment of clarity for the first time since I played this game.

In relative terms: World is worse than other Mario games. In absolute terms: World is still a good game. But I'm not sure I would even call it a great one.

I gave so much shit over the years to the people who said that some of the New Super Mario Bros. games were better than World (especially U, which I played for the first time earlier this year, and it's fantastic). I sincerely apologize to all of you. You were right.

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Piers

Member
People say it's the best mostly because it's the first Super Mario title they experienced, a first-kiss syndrome in a sense.
 

Zalman

Member
NSMBU suffers from the fact that the art and musical style had been used over and over again. It's a shame they didn't go the extra mile, because from a gameplay perspective it might actually be the best one.
 

entremet

Member
It's a great game, but even on release in 91, I thought Super Mario 3 was better. The floaty controls of World always felt wrong to me.

And yes, YI and NSMBWii/U/Luigi are better.

People really love World, though. Great game, no doubt, just not the top 2D Mario for me.

NSMB U? You've gotta be kidding me.

People sleep on this game because it uses the tired New aesthetic, but the level design is probably the best of the 2D series.
 

low-G

Member
Nah, SMW is great. Game as a whole has tons of new mechanics, lots of variety... good secret system. Strong visuals and sound.

YI & SMB3 are great too.

NSMB* is fucking trash. Regurgitated ideas. Boring level after boring level. Poor variety. Weak visuals and sound. Terrible games.
 
I disagree on the enemies (I think the more unique enemies native to dinosaur land give world a lot of its charm and unique points).

But the bulk of the thread? I remember going through the same scenario, world was always my jam, until one day when it just wasn't.
Still a great game mind you and a personal favourite in ways, but the level design can feel oddly sparse at times, the difficulty curve being basically flat outside castles/forts. Playing up the exploration/exits angle was neat when I was a kid, these days though I'll take 3 and U's focused approach.
 

Foffy

Banned
NSMB U? You’ve gotta be kidding me.

NSMBU is considered far and away the best NSMB game.

Unfortunate that such a subseries was considered deeply lazy and by-the-numbers. NSMBU tries to emulate Super Mario World the most, and that's probably why some think it directly exceeds it.
 

Thud

Member
I would still put it above 3 and NSMBU, but playing the snes version is quite differeng from the gba one (which I prefer).
 

Razlo

Member
This is maybe one of the most tired debates in all of gaming.

Some prefer 3,some prefer World. I am a World guy, and played Mario before he was even Super. Most of your points are flimsy opinions, and a similar opinion list could be made of 3.

It's cool to prefer whichever, but yowza am I sick of the debate.
 

Piers

Member
It's a great game, but even on release in 91, I thought Super Mario 3 was better. The floaty controls of World always felt wrong to me.

And yes, YI and NSMBWii/U/Luigi are better.

People really love World, though. Great game, no doubt, just not the top 2D Mario for me.

Was it? I seem to recall Mario's inertia being razor sharp compared to other games. Was a bit bummed when NSMB 'reverted' Mario back to floaty controls, although the wall jumping did balance that out in a sense.
 

Ravelle

Member
Never cared for Super Mario World.

I really love SMB1, 2 and 3 though.

If we're talking newer games 3D Land is better than 3D World.
 
No way. SMW has the best art direction, the colors are beautiful, cape is the best power up in the franchise, the Yoshi are awesome with their unique powers, it's refreshing that they used new enemies because this was a new start for the series coming after SMB3, boss fights are a huge improvement from the last game (Bowser's fight is fantastic), Mario also has the best movement in the 2D series in this game.

Mario Bros 3 having themes for worlds makes it more boring as levels feels sameish, World in general feels more like a fantastic adventure in another land, it's good that it doesn't use the pattern created by SMB3.

IMO the only other 2D Mario game I can see on the same level is Yoshi's Island. Everything else can't compete with the SNES titles, especially the New series.
 
I prefer World over 3 for three simple reasons.

Spin-Jump, Throwing Items Upwards, and levels that aren't over in what feels like less than a minute which feel like they're everywhere in 3.
 

Majukun

Member
yep,mario 3 is definitely betetr than world..don't know about nsmbu..too much time has passed between the two
 

Sanic

Member
The lack of thematic diversity (from both an aesthetic and level design standpoint) always makes replays problematic for me. I always find myself wanting to go back to SMB3 more.

I also have a really hard time believing the people in this thread downplaying NSMBU have played it. It's a fantastic game.
 
I've always thought that 3 was just the better game. I like both but World was clearly more of a rushjob or something to get something on the new hardware. 3 just has more to it and feels better. World is very floaty/slippery in a way I don't like
 

ryushe

Member
Man, in my heart I wanna be there with you cause Mario 3 and Yoshi's Island are my favorite games ever (Mario 3 got me into gaming after all) but.... Mario World is fucking great if only for the cape.

My friend showed me one day how to really use it and it blew my damn mind.

Edit:
As for U... :sigh:..

I like U a lot. More than most people to be honest with you. And that's saying a lot since I absolutely despise the "New" series. I even think U is the only Mario after World that's even in the same league as the greats. It's just the damn music that brings down an otherwise phenomenal package and it's the only reason can't put it above World.
 
Honestly, I kind of felt the same. I remember loving the game as a kid and then again on the GBA but completing it on the SNES Classic I had the same similar feeling as you. I didn't think it was as special as I remember it being.

But in a weird way, it made me appreciate the newer entries more. And I should really go back to NSMBU at some point; I never finished it. Not because I think it's bad or anything, it just got lost in the crowd.
 
I agree with you, although the football enemy is a goomba pretty sure.

This is still a great Mario game to me since the game flowed so smoothly. It could have used more level variety, even had dreams that there were top secret areas to explore on a secret path off the western side of the world map, I wanted more even as a young gamer many year's ago after finding all the secrets on SMB 3's world map.
 

low-G

Member
I also have a really hard time believing the people in this thread downplaying NSMBU have played it. It's a fantastic game.

Suffered through NSMB, NSMB2, NSMBU & its DLC. Gave them way more chances than I’d give any other game because it’s Mario.

Maybe if the levels had more mechanics variety as well as the visual & sound variety. The gameplay is not so tight as to warrant hours and hours of the same thing.

Get the garbage man on the phone.

Maybe we should poll: how many fans of NSMB ever played >100 hours SMB1 decades before NSMB?
 
I've never really taken all that strongly to traditional 2D Mario games even though SMB was as far as I can recall the first game I played. World is just kind of ugly, and the music does nothing for me, with a lot of flat levels that aren't very interesting. I've always been more in the spinoff wheelhouse be it SMB2/USA or Yoshi's Island.
 

jwhit28

Member
If anything the SNES Mini club playthrough made me more sure it is my favorite. So many of SMB3's stages felt like tiny throw aways, and the number of autoscrollers is ridiculous. It's funny to see some of the criticism that enemy designs were too different in SMW when the criticism back in the day was that it didn't do enough to distance itself from SMB3. NSMBU is a good game but by the time it came out I was so sick of the NSMB aesthetic that it felt like a drag to play, and I'm someone that thought of NSMB2 as refreshing.

The only one I would give you is Yoshi's Island but it feels wrong to throw that into the same group. The play structure is so different from anything that came before and after it. I mean no one ever puts Yoshi's Island DS or Yoshi's New Island into their Mario rankings.
 
NSMBU is absolutely one of the best 2D Marios. It would be held in much higher regard if NSMB Wii and NSMB2 weren’t completely bland, and if people weren’t starved for 3D Mario at the time it launched.
 

Dr.Hadji

Member
OP's point about the levels lacking a 'gimmick' is spot on. I guess no one batted an eye when all post Mario Sunshine Marios featured level-design that was favorably compared to Bros 3's radical inventiveness. World's plain jane level design isn't something the series has ever gone back to.
 
Agreed with everything in the OP.

You forgot to add that they drastically reduced the number of power ups, and made the cape so powerful that it's basically the only power up. And it lets you just skip every level like you had unlimited P wings.

Also secret exits are kind of neat, but having to replay the same level back to back to get all the forks is boring. The secret parts of levels should end with a switch that just unlocks the new path once you clear the standard exit in the same visit.

I also prefer the tight obstacle focused nature of 3 to W's tilt towards exploration, which only got worse with YI. But that's subjective.

Only part I disagree with is that YI is not better, YI sucks.


I felt this way at the time of release of 3 and W and I have replayed both games in their entirety no warps in the last 2 weeks.
 

breakfuss

Member
LMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO

NSMB/U? Stop yourself. Has to be one of the most uninspired games I’ve ever played.
 
Agreed with everything in the OP.

You forgot to add that they drastically reduced the number of power ups, and made the cape so powerful that it's basically the only power up. And it lets you just skip every level like you had unlimited P wings.

This is something SMB3 fans always say and makes no sense to me. You have the option to skip the level if you know how to use the cape, but you'll miss the whole level, including secrets and coins. It's your choice, but almost everyone just plays the level.

Is Mario 64 a bad game because you have too many movement options that let you skip levels? Is Mario Odyssey going to be bad because you can just roll and spam Cappy in the air to speedrun the game? Giving these options is a good thing, you still have a great platformer, but with more depth.
 
SMW took the series to a new level. Alternative exits and secrets (yeah, I know other games had it but not the same), the yellow cape, and the introduction of Yoshi. Not to mention Star Road and Special World?!!!? You have got to be kidding me.
 
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