Support NeoGAF

[SoulUnison]

I mean, correct us if wrong, but didn't AAA PS360 games mostly used pre-baked lighting for the environments?

There were a handful of games on even the Wii that had instances of dynamic lighting, and games on the PS2 that had impressive particle work, like a lot of SquareEnix titles. So, no, I don't think "particles and lighting" were flatly, all-around "impossible."

I mean, I'm sorry - I tried to preface even the original comment, I just think it was a blatantly overly-broad statement, and I was trying to figure out where it was coming from and if it was just quick hyperbole or if the view was actually being professed that the hardware of the time was just way, way inherently weaker than it actually was.

If anything it was only a "hardware" issue by way of the engine.

 

[hooijdonk17]

I mean he does just straight up attack developers.

His Bungie vs 343i video was literally all about how 343i is this awful terrible company and how the people working there are awful while making Bungie out to be this perfect company.

It was cherry picking to the max and wasn't funny. Just incredibly mean spirited.

Just because he was mean doesnt change the fact that he was spot on. If it aggravated 343i the mirror is that way.

 

[tesqui]

Is it possible for community mod to try and fix this? Or rather create a early build look and feel to the current game.

 

[neurosisxeno]

whatever you call it, it definitely became uglier

But it became more true to the feel of the game world. From my experience with DS3, it's not exactly filled with lush green forests, so having a more stark and barren "forest" feels a lot more true to the style of the game world.

 

[Ferr986]

This statement is hilarious.
Seriously, how old are you? Were these your first consoles, or something?

Not even trying to "gatekeep" or condescend here, or anything, I just can't wrap my head around this statement if it's from someone who had ever experienced even just one prior console generation.

It was clear as fuck that the first video shown at IGN wasnt posible on PS3 and 360. No excuse for the dowgrade on the PC version though.

 

[Jacqli]

I mean he does just straight up attack developers.

His Bungie vs 343i video was literally all about how 343i is this awful terrible company and how the people working there are awful while making Bungie out to be this perfect company.

It was cherry picking to the max and wasn't funny. Just incredibly mean spirited.

After the shit they did with Halo Wars 2 and its last DLC not included in the season pass… I mean, huge expansion, Crowbcat can shit on 343i all he/she wants to be honest.

Whats wrong with downgrades? Game development is hard and stuff changes. Maybe because I never preorder anything I dont really care what previews show

My problem with downgrade is not the actual downgrade itself, but how publishers keep using these graphics to promote/sell their games when they are not going to make it in the gold version. This only adds fuel to the whole debacle between consumers and publishers or developers. If they were more transparent about it, then it would change the whole picture in my opinion.

 

[KeRaSh]

Maybe in some cases, arguably, but in others? Definitely not!

Like look at the ground tiling when he looks down off the walkway in the area with the fire and basilisks. Looks crap. Plus all the missing debris etc in the opening area.

This was one of the worst downgrades I've ever seen, but I still played and enjoyed the game so what can you do.

Yeah, one is a blurry mess. The other one is not.
To be quite honest when the video started I thought the reveal footage was the downgraded version...

 

[Kalentan]

Just because he was mean doesnt change the fact that he was spot on. If it aggravated 343i the mirror is that way.

If by spot on you mean taking footage out of context to paint 343i in a bad light because his argument would falter other wise! Then yes, he was quite spot on!

I know when writing an argumentative piece that the best thing to do is remove context and paint something in the worst possible light to make my point!

After the shit they did with Halo Wars 2 and its last DLC not included in the season pass... I mean, huge expansion, Crowbcat can shit on 343i all he/she wants to be honest.

I mean the Season Pass never said it would include it. AFAIK the Season Pass has released everything it said it would. Not all Season Passes cover every single content in a game's life cycle.

Black Ops 3 season pass didn't include Zombie Chronicles.

 

[AzureFlame]

But it became more true to the feel of the game world. From my experience with DS3, it's not exactly filled with lush green forests, so having a more stark and barren "forest" feels a lot more true to the style of the game world.

from my experience that forest felt really lifeless to me.

 

[Zomba13]

The dynamic lighting is the one that hurts the worst. Imagine the atmosphere with the dynamic lighting from having to actually USE the torch.

Such a missed opportunity.

Yup. The entire torch mechanic is pointless outside of one area in the game where the entire point of the area was "shits dark" which was basically already done in DS1 with the Tomb of the Giants in the same way (either get lucky/pro enough to have the sunlight maggot or use the head torch thing and go 1 handed/without shield).

 

[Poimandres]

Yeah, one is a blurry mess. The other one is not.
To be quite honest when the video started I thought the reveal footage was the downgraded version...

That's down to the capture of the comparison footage. If you can't see the more detailed, less obviously tile based textures in the original footage (and extra environmental objects to boot) then I think you are certifiably blind!

Well, that's a bit extreme, but it seems super clear to me.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

There are two things to consider. Some areas do have the improved torch mechanics in SotFS and they look very good when you walk around. But it gets really messy when you fight and roll as shadows flicker all over the place. Maybe they found that the practical result wasn't worth it?

Secondly, they made a big deal of the dual wielding mechanic. This naturally conflicts with having a torch at all times.

So gameplay considerations, hardware limitations, visual design and a troubled development overall. It's not surprising that stuff was cut and wasn't polished.

 

[ZangBa]

This is kind of old news, it's only really the lighting that was gutted. I'm surprised he didn't compare the Looking Glass Knight. The real bullshit was not just the marketing, but I'm pretty sure the back of the box even had the old lighting in screenshots. That was real messed up. I can't believe they didn't use this lightning for SotFS either.

 

[KeRaSh]

That's down to the capture of the comparison footage. If you can't see the more detailed, less obviously tile based textures in the original footage (and extra environmental objects to boot) then I think you are certifiably blind!

Well, that's a bit extreme, but it seems super clear to me.

Don't get me wrong. I know what you mean. The pre release footage shows a bridge tiled with more natural stones, rather than the processed, cleaner cut stone tiles in the release footage.
However, the original footage still looks objectively worse. Those "natural" stone formations don't really look natural to me at all. Those looks like random stone textures.
Also, in what universe are sharper, more high resolution textures inferior to a pixelated version, even when they use different styles? In my opinion this comes down to a stylistic choice.
The release footage also shows a little more environmental detail with the stone slab that I've marked. Not to mention the fire, which clearly looks better in the final build.

I know I'm cherry picking here but you brought up the bridge so I thought I'd chime in. At one point there was a spider web in the pre release footage and that web was missing in the release version so there are definitely instances where the old footage had more details.
In the end, I don't really care either way. I didn't even know about this "controversy" before this thread. I've only played the PS4 remaster of DS2 and that looked OK to me.

 

[CloudWolf]

But the pre-release footage looks worse? I mean, the lighting stuff looks cool for footage like this, but I can't imagine playing a non-horror game that looks that dark. Look at Tomb of the Giants in Dark Souls 1, that area was complete shit if you didn't have the cast light spell. Having to use your shield/second weapon slot for a torch or lantern is just annoying.

Also, literally everything aside from the lighting/shadows looks better in the post-release footage.

 

[silva1991]

I feel like I'm back in 2014

Before clicking,I was so sure this was an old thread...

I'll watch it later.

 

[RK9039]

Playing through this shit right now (I like it), but this thing still stings.

 

[paperspace]

⁣

 

[laxu]

Is it possible for community mod to try and fix this? Or rather create a early build look and feel to the current game.

You could probably put on ReShade and use it to turn it into that. I don't like the look of the pre-release, it's this overly dark, overly contrasted look that you generally find running a TV with default settings or an incorrect color space.

That said From does go too far in the other direction where the lighting looks flat. DS3 suffers from the same thing.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

Even without the downgrade the game is still shit.

Get over it, Dark Souls is finished, it's finished when the first game ends, and it will forever be one of the most special game of all time.

God damn.

Facebook selfie vs. actual person

 

[Griss]

Definitely the worst downgrade of all time, and the only one that consistently bothered me as I was playing the game. It was a deeply ugly game. I also would have loved to have the proper torch experience.

As it is, I've beaten every Souls game except DS2 twice, but with DS2 I had to slog to the last couple of bosses and eventually put it down. It's definitely the black sheep of the series for me and the spectacular visual fuck up that obviously occurred during development is definitely part of that.

 

[Soodanim]

I'm going to be honest right now:

Being forced to use a torch in Dark Souls 2 would have sucked.

It would have been as fun as struggling to play DOOM 3 for the first time without a flash light mod. The game would have became notorious for its artificial difficulty caused by its reliance on the torch.

I don't feel like this would have been so bad if the game didn't have the outrageous enemy tracking. If it played like 1 but had the darkness of 2b I think it would have been just fine. But the version we got? I agree.

 

[UrbanRats]

Features get cut in software development. Sometimes there are reasons these things can happen other than "they were trying to trick us!!!11!".

They kept the pre-downgrade screenshots on the Steam page even after release (not sure if they removed them now).

I do think it's definitely time to move on, but what they did was scummy, and even at the time you had people defend that shit.

 

[SilentRob]

Really gotta go to the bottom of the outrage-barrel with this one, eh?

That said, I still remember playing the original build during Gamescom one year. Still hurts

 

[Joey Ravn]

How long until this guy makes a Horse Armor video?

 

[laxu]

I'm going to be honest right now:

Being forced to use a torch in Dark Souls 2 would have sucked.

It would have been as fun as struggling to play DOOM 3 for the first time without a flash light mod. The game would have became notorious for its artificial difficulty caused by its reliance on the torch.

I agree. It works well as a gimmick for one level but if it had to be used throughout the game it might get annoying as it heavily limits what you can use. A Bloodborne style lantern that hangs on your belt might've been a better solution.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

You could probably put on ReShade and use it to turn it into that. I don't like the look of the pre-release, it's this overly dark, overly contrasted look that you generally find running a TV with default settings or an incorrect color space.

That said From does go too far in the other direction where the lighting looks flat. DS3 suffers from the same thing.

I haven't played my copy of SotFS yet, but from what I've seen I agree with this. Both versions of the game take it to extremes -- one so contrasted that it destroys detail, the other looks flat and lifeless.

 

[Maddrical]

Even without the downgrade the game is still shit.

Get over it, Dark Souls is finished, it's finished when the first game ends, and it will forever be one of the most special game of all time.

It's not even close to "shit". It's a great game.

 

[Shifty]

I mean, correct us if wrong, but didn't AAA PS360 games mostly used pre-baked lighting for the environments?

I'm sure by "impossible" he meant in the context of needing to also have AAA graphics so there may not be enough horsepower left for dynamic lighting.

General best practice is "static geometry gets baked lighting, moving geometry gets dynamic lighting".

"Impossible" is a massive overreach for both lighting and particle systems.

 

[ponpo]

Years later and people still can't accept that some people like this game and some people do not like this game.

 

[KeRaSh]

Definitely the worst downgrade of all time, and the only one that consistently bothered me as I was playing the game. It was a deeply ugly game. I also would have loved to have the proper torch experience.

Watch Dogs and Alien: Colonial Marines would like to have a word with you.

 

[Piichan]

Watch Dogs and Alien Isolation would like to have a word with you.

Woah hold up, you must be mistaking Isolation for Colonial Marines.

 

[Ravelle]

Definitely the worst downgrade of all time, and the only one that consistently bothered me as I was playing the game. It was a deeply ugly game. I also would have loved to have the proper torch experience.

As it is, I've beaten every Souls game except DS2 twice, but with DS2 I had to slog to the last couple of bosses and eventually put it down. It's definitely the black sheep of the series for me and the spectacular visual fuck up that obviously occurred during development is definitely part of that.

There were mods available that improved the lighting a lot, torches weren't critical still but at least they created some atmosphere when you walked around with them.

 

[old manatee]

I'm going to be honest right now:

Being forced to use a torch in Dark Souls 2 would have sucked.

It would have been as fun as struggling to play DOOM 3 for the first time without a flash light mod. The game would have became notorious for its artificial difficulty caused by its reliance on the torch.

Yeah, I agree. I absolutely loved inching my way from torch to torch through No Man's Wharf, but the idea of having to carry a torch in one hand for large chunks of a Souls game is just too much.

Anyways, I still love Dark Souls 2, and anyone who is still trying to tear it down is just a crusty crustacean.

 

[xviper]

this guy is probably ran out of ideas so he started doing a video about a downgrade to a certain game that came out more than 3 years ago, and this game already have 2 sequels after it

 

[chaobreaker]

They kept the pre-downgrade screenshots on the Steam page even after release (not sure if they removed them now).

I do think it's definitely time to move on, but what they did was scummy, and even at the time you had people defend that shit.

Hold on, what makes you assume they left the old screenshots on purpose? At some point, the game did look like that and it's could be very easy for a From or Namco Bandai to overlook updating the store page until people complained.

That's the problem with this conversation of DS2's alleged downgrading: Most people think it was done out of malice. That they were trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

 

[KeRaSh]

Woah hold up, you must be mistaking Isolation for Colonial Marines.

You are correct! Edited my post. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[shimon]

Did we go back in time?

 

[King Tubby]

CrowbCat is basically dumbass forum posters talking shit about "lazy devs" in video form.

Can't wait for the Killzone 2 comparison, those guys ought to be taken down a notch.

 

[UrbanRats]

Hold on, what makes you assume they left the old screenshots on purpose? At some point, the game did look like that and it's could be very easy for a From or Namco Bandai to overlook updating the store page until people complained.

That's the problem with this conversation of DS2's alleged downgrading: Most people think it was done out of malice. That they were trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

I don't care why they did it.
It's their responsibility.

They're selling a product for money, not running a pro bono operation.

Especially since the steam page is their main store page on PC.

 

[Lux R7]

I would frankly buy a third edition of dsII with those textures and lighting.

 

[beelulzebub]

You thought everyone on this site should be done with him because you (one guy) over reacts to one joke?

It's clearly never one guy, as this comes up every Crowbcat thread. As it should. If Crowbcat uses racist memes and a large chunk of the gaming side wants to excuse him for it, then it deserves to be brought up time and time again until people who don't want to confront it actually confront it.

His cherry picking shit plays to the worst, most cynical side of gaming culture anyway. I don't understand why people keep showing up and defending his low-hanging troll fruit videos, even if they can excuse racist memes for the lulz. He just keeps making the same video over and over. Like how do you not move on after a few years of his schtick? Especially if his newest offering is a game that came out three years ago?

 

[Velius]

This still hurts. A lot. After all these years.

The entire game was built around the dynamic that got yanked out, and they clearly didn't have enough time to go back and rework levels in light (haha) of its absence. And you can feel that every step of the way.

 

[Yukinari]

CrowbCat is basically dumbass forum posters talking shit about "lazy devs" in video form.

Can't wait for the Killzone 2 comparison, those guys ought to be taken down a notch.

I mean Jim already did a video mentioning how fake the original killzone 2 reveal was so thats too easy.

 

[hotcyder]

Can't wait for the Killzone 2 comparison, those guys ought to be taken down a notch.

I heard he's following that one up with a downgrade comparison between the PC and Console versions of Doom (1993)

 

[Nev]

How many times do we have to go over this? We get it, some graphics were downgraded and lighting was changed. And it was for the better. Dark Souls 2 is mediocre enough with only a few areas of forced torch garbage, I can't imagine how bad it would've been if this pointless gimmick was a core mechanic throughout. Go play Amnesia or something.

As for the edgy, clever guy who makes these videos, he must've really run out of things to shit on if he had to dig up a 2014 outrage.

Get a life.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Maybe he played it recently and thought why not make a video on it? Nah, can't be. He also made a video about Team Fortress and it's hats and failed design philosophy years after the game released or that GTA 4/5 comparison and noone complained.
Stop being so defensive because it's your precious DS2. This thread is sad.

CrowbCat is basically dumbass forum posters talking shit about "lazy devs" in video form.

Can't wait for the Killzone 2 comparison, those guys ought to be taken down a notch.

Because not being OK with being lied to is now screaming lazy devs. Nice one.

 

[JDB]

I'm glad they didn't have many dark areas that requires a torch, but damn if it wouldn't have been great if the game's lighting looked less flat. Especially the first area in DS2 looks so drab.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Watch Dogs and Alien: Colonial Marines would like to have a word with you.

Alien: Colonial Marines was the worst bait and switch of all time, and it's not even close. Watch Dogs was pretty disappointing, as was The Division. But A:CM was some next level horror.

 

[Alienous]

Hey, I remember these dirty lies.