SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Honestly I'm out
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Physical punishment for kids? Does it work?
- Thread starter The Futurist
- Start date
Yikes.
Monocle
Member
Physical punishment for kids sometimes works to stop the undesirable behavior. It also has a good chance of warping their understanding of violence, their relationships with authority figures, their emotional life, and their capacity to treat others with appropriate empathy.
People who deny this are often in denial about the effects of their own childhood experiences, or under some other sort of delusion about the minds of children or the responsibilities of parents--or perhaps just plain cruel. There's certainly no body of reliable evidence to show that physically punishing kids is anything other than an excessively harsh and traumatizing tactic favored by parents who don't have the ability or character to use better tools.
People who deny this are often in denial about the effects of their own childhood experiences, or under some other sort of delusion about the minds of children or the responsibilities of parents--or perhaps just plain cruel. There's certainly no body of reliable evidence to show that physically punishing kids is anything other than an excessively harsh and traumatizing tactic favored by parents who don't have the ability or character to use better tools.
maquiladora
Member
Don't physically abuse children. Ever.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
I got my ass whooped and I turned out ok. I think children should be disciplined and means should differ at different ages but I don't think you should ever discipline a child while angry or emotionally invested. You should always separate yourself from the act and your emotions that were present during the situation that caused the disciplinary action.
Good post? Please think for a second before agreeing with the first post that seems to align with your own perspective. It makes you seem over eager for some form of validation, anything! I wouldn't consider a post containing obvious straw man arguments good. It is arguing against no argument being made.
Also, the poster seems to suggest the line of abuse starts when someone is beaten bloody. Which is disturbing and a twisted way to think (because of poor upbringing perhaps) on the one hand and is obviously an ignorant or stupid thing to suggest on the other.
If a person ever believes it is sometimes (or often) necessary to physically hurt a child on purpose then they have lost as an adult human being. Did these people not grow out of the physical conflict resolution phase small kids seem to have?
The fact that children who have not been slapped, hit, smacked, etc. can turn out well and children who get hit can turn out bad regardless, should by itself be an argument that it is never necessary to use physical punishment. Unless someone wants to suggest that the children who turn out well without physical punishment are always exactly the children that didn't need to be punished physically in the first place. And the children that got hit and turned out well are always exactly the children that needed to be hit. Especially this last point should give people who condone physical punishment pause, I feel.
Is it ok to suggest that hitting a child is fine if it creates an environment/culture where children who don't deserve to get hit, get hit? Or do you believe that every child that gets hit must have deserved it? I hope we can all agree that notion is ludicrous.
A bit off topic but, thinking about it, I also wonder what people who are in favour of or condone physical punishment think about torture of prisoners and death sentences.
Anyway, I find it curious that people say they have been hit when they were a child more often then not talk about being hit seemingly numerous times over the years. This would suggest to me that the physical punishment actually didn't do much to curb the unwanted behaviour, rather than it actually sounding effective. It's like they didn't learn to reflect on the why of their mistakes.
People who say it is good as a last resort are also funny to me. In my eyes there are an infinite number of options between doing nothing and hitting a child. So, why even consider it as an option?
A voice of reason on GAF, granted, is rare. But what you quoted, however, a post full of straw man arguments and other logical leaps are a dime a dozen. Just because a post agrees with your preconceived notions doesn't make it good. It was an objectively bad post.
Monocle
Member
I'm Captain Goalpost Mover, here to do what I do best!
Physically punishing children is not abuse.
Haha! You are foiled!
Good thing humans are famously great at controlling their emotions, so that their judgment abides in the cool waters of reason at all times.
I find parents who do hit their kids have an attitude of ''They're my kids, I'll do whatever I want.''. It's like their children are their property. Ask these people who think child abuse works, and they will talk to you all day about how effective it is and about how using non violent forms of punishment turn children into weirdos. Then ask them about how they would feel if a school teacher used violence as a form of punishment and it becomes very different. If you believe violence works, then you also believe a teacher has the right to beat your child if he/she misbehaves.
DaMasta113
Member
Nah. My understanding of violence isn't warped. I respect my elders and authority figures. Emotional life? Uh, sure. I treat others with empathy. I work in healthcare and my patients love me. My friends love me and I love them.
No denial here. My parents used physical punishment and I definitely deserved it. I was a naughty kid and verbal discipline and reasoning didn't work all the time. I love my parents very much, no resentment towards them at all. I didn't feel that way when I was younger, but after I grew up and was out on my own I realized all their sacrifices and hard work in raising me.
"X happened to me and I turned out okay" does not inherently justify X.
As for the rest of your point, in a way I find the idea of emotionless spanking of a child even more disturbing.
I am against hitting kids full stop but at least the idea of getting angry and giving your kid a slap is understandable from a "humans do bad things when they are emotional" perspective.
But the idea of coolly waiting until the emotion of a situation has subsided and still determining that corporal punishment is to be handed out, and actually following through with it as a cold, unemotional outcome seems even more monstrous. The "your father is going to spank you tonight at 6pm when he gets home from work" thing is really anachronistic and creepy.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Could care less about validation it was a post i agree with thats all.
OmegaTreeFish
Banned
So when my son gets in a tiz and worked up because he is being naught and put him on the naughty step to calm down. Then over the next few mins I talk to him till he is calm. Understands what he did is wrong and why he shouldnt do it. Then goes and apolagises to either me or his mum. Then goes back to playing while calm and happy again.
Thats bullshit is it?
Hitting just escelates the problem. Its what leads to parents having shouting matches with there kids that go no where and just end with everyone upset and angry.
MikeBison
Member
The only time I was ever hit by my Mum, I was being a truly horrible cunt and the moment it happened she ran off crying and I had to console her. I was a teenager at the time and i've never seen her so upset.
FWIW I don't have nor ever want kids, but I wouldn't physically discipline them if I did. Always think there's a better way.
FWIW I don't have nor ever want kids, but I wouldn't physically discipline them if I did. Always think there's a better way.
DaMasta113
Member
I don't ALWAYS find that. Yes, you do find some people who say "stay out of it, it's none of your business". But I don't think ALL of them are like that. And no, physical punishment isn't child abuse.
It seems to me that people who are all "Don't ever hit children" are those all or nothing types that live their lives at one extreme or the other. No balance at all.
Without giving it much it seems, though, or am I wrong?
Obviously all kids are different, but in my experience as a parent who's yelled, yelling isn't great either. As you bring up, a lot of these approaches end up with the kid scared of you instead of what you want them to be scared of.
Frankly, as frustrating and time consuming as it can seem sometimes, the only thing I've found that really works is consistency and repetition. Every time my daughter gets too close to the stove, every time she reaches up towards a knife, every time she tries to let go of my hand in a parking lot, I have to be on top of it. One of the big ones is just getting her to listen to things like "stop" when I don't have time to explain why she needs to stop walking. It's a never ending series of lessons that much of the time doesn't feel like it's sinking in, but I've eventually found that she not only does the right thing, but understands why she's doing it and can make further judgements about similar dangerous things (i.e. I should use any sharp things, or I shouldn't get near the grill either). Of course, now I've got a son who's starting to move and go for things he shouldn't, so we'll see if this works for him.
I definitely yell at her, usually out of my own fear, but I've found it just makes her cry, and then I'm dealing with calming her down from that rather that instilling the lesson I need to instill.
Again, all kids are different, so I'm not trying to claim some expertise, and I'm certainly not judging people who yell at their kids. It's hard enough with what I consider good kids.
DaMasta113
Member
Your words worked. You didn't have to hit him. That's great. I'll do the same and hopefully won't have to hit my kids.
An instinctual physical intervention to prevent greater harm when there isn't time to explain isn't abuse. In the same way that pushing someone out of the path of a bus isn't abuse, even if they get mildly hurt in the process.
Nah all it does is escalate the problem and can potentially cause mental health in the long term
I think the solution here is to not have knives within reaching distance of kids that age in the first place
I think the solution here is to not have knives within reaching distance of kids that age in the first place
Regret Truth
Member
Don't do it.
I grew up in a culture(Caribbean) where spankings/hitting kids is perfectly acceptable almost encouraged. I don't resent my parent for it at all. The same hands that spanked me were also the same hands that gave me my brothers lots of love/hugs.
I have 3 kids now - 8,6 and 4 years old, and I used to spank them. It does not help. Period.
I've intentionally decided to converse (sternly) with them about behavior that is inappropriate and it's been much better for everyone.
They don't have this fear of big bad bad after they make poor choices. Instead they're actually more receptive to verbal discipline now.
EDIT: I also don't belive in timeouts..... Address the issue right away, make certain they understand what they did. If the behavior does not improve you may not be effectively communicating with your kid.
I grew up in a culture(Caribbean) where spankings/hitting kids is perfectly acceptable almost encouraged. I don't resent my parent for it at all. The same hands that spanked me were also the same hands that gave me my brothers lots of love/hugs.
I have 3 kids now - 8,6 and 4 years old, and I used to spank them. It does not help. Period.
I've intentionally decided to converse (sternly) with them about behavior that is inappropriate and it's been much better for everyone.
They don't have this fear of big bad bad after they make poor choices. Instead they're actually more receptive to verbal discipline now.
EDIT: I also don't belive in timeouts..... Address the issue right away, make certain they understand what they did. If the behavior does not improve you may not be effectively communicating with your kid.
OmegaTreeFish
Banned
The point is you claimed time out is bullshit.
Also if you end up 'having' to hit your kids you just lost patience and gave up. You shouldn't hope you dont have to. You straight up shouldn't have to.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Giving the post validation? As i said it explains what I feel on subject better than i can so thats why i liked it
That's a little bit patronising. I think we can take it as a given that people know that you need to keep dangerous items away from kids. But sometimes things get missed when people are busy, tired, stressed out etc.
ScriptedReality
Member
From what i've seen, sometimes it works.
Depends what your objective or benchmark is.
Someone might drink or pop valium every time they are stressed out or pop an oxycontin when their back is giving them grief. Yes, it "works" in the context of fixing the short term issue, but if it is used as a constant system, then there is a long term price that might have to be paid.
I'm not going to defend hitting here, but let's be clear: of course this is the answer, but I don't think it's a practical answer. Do you know what's out of reach of my 3.5 year old? Basically nothing. She can reach up onto the counter and get to most of it, and for things she can't reach, she knows how to go grab a stool and bring it over. If I'm chopping something on the counter, she could absolutely reach in and try to grab something. I'm not going to hit her in that situation, obviously, but could I see myself swatting her hand away, then putting down the knife and explaining to her why that was dangerous? Absolutely.
Additionally, there's stuff you just can't move, like the stove. At some point, kids are going to reach for dangerous things. It's pretty much inevitable.
Yep, just tonight my son dug into his mum's purse and found a roll-on sunscreen, took the lid off and started licking it.
You just can't prepare for everything.
The beatings I got was simply because all other avenues they had back then were exhausted.
No positive results? There were definitely positive things about it.
Belts, hands, shoes, water hose (that was definitely my fault lol), coat hanger.. just to name a few "tools of the trade", my parents used.
1. I learned that I was going to get hurt if I did things my parents already told me not to do. I should stop doing bad stuff.
2. I learned that I need to find better ways of hiding the bad things I was doing, then I wouldn't get beat up on.
3. I came a lot more prolific at hiding my extremely bad behavior (stealing, fighting, drugs, skipping school).
4. I improved my reflexes to be able to dodge attacks easier. Kept them on their toes, having to randomize their swings of the belt. I was a squirmy little mf'er. It was harder for them to get any good hits in vs. me dealing with the pain that went away after a few minutes. Sometimes my dad seemed to have just went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson LOL.
Time outs didn't work at all. I can remember quite easily that a time out was just a delay of when I could pull off some more bad shit.
Taking things away from me.. well, we had toys, and were allowed to go outside and play. Money for the arcade. That's pretty much all we had back in the 80's. So, take my toys, that'll give me more time to plan bad shit. Ground me and not let me go play with my friends. That's ok, I'll sneak out anyways.. No money for the arcade? I'll find it elsewhere.
Talk with me about the things I'm doing are bad, etc. etc. All I heard was blah blah blah blah...
Counseling didn't do a single thing. I stole shit out of that dr.s office when he went to the bathroom.
I was a terrible child, all the way up till I was 18 and got arrested. Being in jail was the breaking point for me. My parents pretty much gave up when I was 16. I ran away when they wouldn't let me use the car (didn't have a license), they found me three states over.
you can put the purse out of reach... just sayin'.
Don't leave things in the purse you don't want your child to get?
No positive results? There were definitely positive things about it.
Belts, hands, shoes, water hose (that was definitely my fault lol), coat hanger.. just to name a few "tools of the trade", my parents used.
1. I learned that I was going to get hurt if I did things my parents already told me not to do. I should stop doing bad stuff.
2. I learned that I need to find better ways of hiding the bad things I was doing, then I wouldn't get beat up on.
3. I came a lot more prolific at hiding my extremely bad behavior (stealing, fighting, drugs, skipping school).
4. I improved my reflexes to be able to dodge attacks easier. Kept them on their toes, having to randomize their swings of the belt. I was a squirmy little mf'er. It was harder for them to get any good hits in vs. me dealing with the pain that went away after a few minutes. Sometimes my dad seemed to have just went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson LOL.
Time outs didn't work at all. I can remember quite easily that a time out was just a delay of when I could pull off some more bad shit.
Taking things away from me.. well, we had toys, and were allowed to go outside and play. Money for the arcade. That's pretty much all we had back in the 80's. So, take my toys, that'll give me more time to plan bad shit. Ground me and not let me go play with my friends. That's ok, I'll sneak out anyways.. No money for the arcade? I'll find it elsewhere.
Talk with me about the things I'm doing are bad, etc. etc. All I heard was blah blah blah blah...
Counseling didn't do a single thing. I stole shit out of that dr.s office when he went to the bathroom.
I was a terrible child, all the way up till I was 18 and got arrested. Being in jail was the breaking point for me. My parents pretty much gave up when I was 16. I ran away when they wouldn't let me use the car (didn't have a license), they found me three states over.
you can put the purse out of reach... just sayin'.
Don't leave things in the purse you don't want your child to get?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=252608691&postcount=928
Yeah, what a negligent piece of shit my wife is right? Got up at 6am after a night of interrupted sleep (as you get with a 2 year old) to take her before school art club class, then taught all day, then stayed late to help create props for the school play, drove home, came home exhausted and plonked her purse on the dining table and didn't consider that our 2 year old would decide it would be a good idea to reach up, pull the bag onto the floor, rifle through it, find roll-on-sunscreen, manage to prise the lid off and take a lick while she went to the bathroom and I cooked dinner.
I mean, how could we not have seen that coming. It was so obvious. We really should have though of that while we were putting guards in the electrical sockets, soft edges on every hard corner, gates between rooms and safety locks on all cupboards with dangerous items in them. I really think our kid should be taken away from us. We're fucking terrible parents.
DaMasta113
Member
I didn't realize that young children were in the army. Thank you for this.
You can't be serious? You'd rather hit & cause physical pain than use a method that does not do so? And no one is saying "just put them in a corner and pretend they don't exist". A big part of that kind of punishment is what you do/say before you do so, when you are doing so & after doing it. It doesn't have to be a corner but somewhere where they don't have access to their toys or can't watch TV or aren't in the same room as the sibling they were fighting with. And you have to thoroughly explain why what they are doing is wrong and how they can resume what they were doing (i.e. "to go back playing with your toys, you have to stop fighting with your little brother").
That said, yes, there are times when you should just try to ignore a child when they are screaming and just behaving in a way that no words reach them, instead of hitting them. First try to talk to them, yes, but if they are being stubborn (children can be, at that point as an adult you need to be the patient one and not let violent impulses control you), just leave them there screaming. Eventually they will tire themselves out and in the long run they will learn that crying & screaming won't get them any positive results. All without the need to ever hit them.
Of course they aren't. I'm just reacting to all the people in this thread putting forward freezing your kids out emotionally as a perfectly normal, viable alternative to hitting them.
Get some help.
OmegaTreeFish
Banned
Whats your point here? Anything you can think of that led to you behaving the way you did? how would you act to your own kid if they acted like you?
Your description is certainly not that of a typical child.
DaMasta113
Member
Okay.
Exactly.
A bit more than just a tap on the shoulder to say hello. But I guess you get the point.
Monocle
Member
Um.
Look, I respect your perspective and I don't doubt your conviction here. However: Kids are irrational semi-formed proto-people operating well below their potential, working with minds that need to be fortified with education and much experience, and tempered by time. The most effective punishment is instructive and humane, and reflects the understanding that to attribute responsibility is to assume the person is in control; that deterministic factors aren't in the driver's seat (as they so often are with children, who can barely control themselves at the best of times).
Pain doesn't appeal to reason, it acts upon people at a base level, engaging the emotions in a tangle of primal turmoil rather than channeling emotions through structured thoughts that make sense and contribute to the big-picture understanding that ties into a person's principles and values.
If good parenting is about preparing children to be well adjusted self-sufficient people, then physical punishment, apart from being unjustified and probably unethical, is just plain unsuitable for the task.
tonysidaway
Member
We're both strong feminists, too. It was pretty easy for me to point out that my more highly qualified wife never earned more than a fraction of my wages. It's not always going to be that simple, not all couples have that feminist underpinning.
We're also somewhat disengaged from popular culture, more intellectually oriented, and that is reflected in their characters as adults. One child is male and somewhat of a software geek, but much more politically aware than you might expect. He's dabbled in left wing politics, which is how his parents met in the first place. The other is f2m trans, loves Buffy and Doctor Who, and actively engages in a long-running discussion with me about feminism. We all still argue all the time, and there are some aspects of parenting that our kids think we got wrong (I'm inclined to agree).
They're not entitled, or in any way selfish. We aren't like that, nobody we know or would want to associate with is like that. We have always lived in what I would call working class areas. If you're American you might call it middle class, but that term has a more restrictive meaning in the UK. We don't take things for granted, so our kids don't.
The preferred way would be to just grab their hand and push/pull it away, but I know sometimes the situation requires quick reflexes and that can mean the reaction is more of a slap on the wrist and your brains don't have the time to think it through much more than that. In those situations, if the child is audibly/visibly hurting, I do think it's important to apologize for the child and then explain you were just trying to stop them from seriously injuring themselves and not to reach to the stove/knives/hot kettle again.
Im curious if kids today are going to grow up "softer" or not in ~20 years.
I think it was on jeopardy that a law was made to not let children work over 10 hours a day. Of course this was many decades ago but i couldn't imagine working at all as a kid, yet that was our parents and parents parents back then.
I got spanked every other day but i cant imagine spanking my kids today.. even though i think i was better because of it. But Its a odd what if scenario.
I think it was on jeopardy that a law was made to not let children work over 10 hours a day. Of course this was many decades ago but i couldn't imagine working at all as a kid, yet that was our parents and parents parents back then.
I got spanked every other day but i cant imagine spanking my kids today.. even though i think i was better because of it. But Its a odd what if scenario.
Seriously, if physical punishment is the best you can come up with when dealing with small children I pity your kids.
Hey, I didn't say anything negative about you or your wife. It was just simple advice. I've seen a lot of advice on how to deal with kids in this thread, so, what's the issue with what I said?
Sometimes ALL options are used. Didn't make my parents bad parents. I guess they could have stopped trying when the physical discipline was the last resort.
My kids responded well to communication and being put in the corner. Heck, some classify the corner time out as physical abuse because my child had to STAND in the corner for 5 minutes.
/shrugs.
None taken. I was definitely a bad kid, teenager years were worse.
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