Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
The performance mode is prepared for base PS5 and on PS5 Pro it will look like quality at the same or better framerate
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PS5 Pro Specs Leak are Real, Releasing Holiday 2024(Insider Gaming)
- Thread starter jm89
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Fake
Member
PS5 Pro Specs Leak are Real, Releasing Holiday 2024(Insider Gaming)
Total sales US/UK/Japan/rest of the world. Amazon top sales are pretty arbitrary. In real life I'm seeing people go for the digital PS5 now. I guess it's the fact that they can get a drive later on if they want to but it's no longer being overlooked.
Almost sure will be only one SKU, aka only one model of PS5pro.
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yamaci17
Member
nothing is nice about zen 2
cerny is just afraid that putting zen 3 or zen 4 there will cause ps5 to render games at 15-20 fps while devs targeting 30 fps for the new zen 3. that is literally what would happen with this dev mentality
cerny is aware that a better cpu will be just moving the goalpost. you can put a 14900k in ps5 pro and some developers will still code up to 30 fps and then stop optimizing it. it is why nvidia was scared and quickly came up with frame gen for games because they're aware with how things going on with the CPU side of things, no desktop CPU will be able to keep up with their 5000 GPU line up
cerny is just afraid that putting zen 3 or zen 4 there will cause ps5 to render games at 15-20 fps while devs targeting 30 fps for the new zen 3. that is literally what would happen with this dev mentality
cerny is aware that a better cpu will be just moving the goalpost. you can put a 14900k in ps5 pro and some developers will still code up to 30 fps and then stop optimizing it. it is why nvidia was scared and quickly came up with frame gen for games because they're aware with how things going on with the CPU side of things, no desktop CPU will be able to keep up with their 5000 GPU line up
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Resolution cap and no visuals improvements. Yeah sure.
bitbydeath
Member
99% of PS5 games already run at 60FPS, the few that remain are likely poorly optimised game engines as they are not doing anything extraordinary.
That said the CPU is still getting a small boost, and RDNA advancements will push it even further.
MisterXDTV
Member
The performance mode is prepared for base PS5 and on PS5 Pro it will look like quality at the same or better framerate
Yes but people here are suggesting that PS5 Pro will have a worse CPU bottleneck than the base model considering the GPU upgrade...
I will trust Cerny on this, sorry
bitbydeath
Member
Those people don’t know what they’re talking about.
Leonidas
Member
Yup, there is going to be many examples of it. Same as last gen.
Not every game gets a pro patch.
Fake
Member
I trust Cerny as well, but we must confirm if is really he at the command of the PS5pro project.
MisterXDTV
Member
Ashamam
Member
Pretty safe to say he was in the thick of things circa 2022. ie: when the Pro was in deep design.
Sony patents method for “significant improvement of ray tracing speed”
Special hardware units handle ray traversal, freeing up the GPU shaders.
arstechnica.com
NB: everyone else here has an edit button. Am I special and its just assumed I don't do typos?
Lagspike_exe
Member
The cap doesn't have anything to do with PS5. HDMI can only transmit 144 FPS in 2.1 standard at 4K. Few people have TVs above 120 hz anyway.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
That RAM is really slow...but no, your rig isn't only 25% faster than the Pro. It will probably be much closer to twice as powerful but that RAM can seriously hold you back. I assume the CPU isn't too recent either.
Leonidas
Member
Its a limitation of consoles. 3080 can do way beyond 120 FPS in some of the 120 FPS PS5 games (at PS5 settings). Same will be true vs. PS5 Pro.
There is no such limitation on PC.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Lagspike_exe
Member
Yes, and so console games that are hitting 120 FPS will get increased resolution / fidelity instead. Same as with PS4 Pro / XOX.
Skifi28
Member
I have no idea why people insist on "cpu limited" so much. Plague take runs with an unlocked framerate from 60-90 and to achieve that they dropped resolution and settings. They didn't just magically optimize the code to achieve 3 times the performance, it just seems like they never planned a performance mode until they saw the fan demand. Gotham knights runs at 4k native with RT, we don't know for sure If they could achieve 60fps or not, but a 3600x on PC gets pretty close minus the traversal stutters the game suffers from on bike. We have no idea what the bottleneck in dogma 2 is without any PC benchmarks, but we'll know soon I guess. I will give you Starfield though, that game has tons of issues with cpus on PC too.
On the other hand we have quite a few examples of games making use of RT while also achieving 60fps like spiderman, metro, avatar, rachet etc. I think people really underestimate these cpus, they rarely seem to be the issue once you get rid of windows and have a more efficient OS in place.
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Fake
Member
Did he quit his job or something???
Can't understand or trust the current Sony.
If Cerny still ahead, no worries. Besides the size, the base PS5 is a great machine.
Pretty safe to say he was in the thick of things circa 2022. ie: when the Pro was in deep design.
Sony patents method for “significant improvement of ray tracing speed”
Special hardware units handle ray traversal, freeing up the GPU shaders.
NB: everyone else here has an edit button. Am I special and its just assumed I don't do typos?
Glad to hear. Playstation without Cerny would be rather complicated.
Bojji
Member
I'm GLAD that that there is this few games locked to 30fps, this is the best performing console generation in decades and people often forget about that.
You can also add games where performance mode is shit and unusable like FFXVI but even with them this number will be small.
Problem is that the biggest game ever is more than likely limited to 30fps and that super small CPU bump won't help with that. So far GTA games performed like shit on target platforms so 30fps lock would still be better than ~25fps in GTA 5 on PS5.
I really hope that they will be able to deliver that 40fps at least.
Leonidas
Member
Not all games are getting patched. Same as PS4 Pro / XOX.
yamaci17
Member
it is only that because PS5 and xbox series x were enjoying the enormous CPU bound optimizations developers did just so that their code can run at 30 fps on 1.6 ghz jaguar cores. remove that "enforcement" and suddenly you see the ugly truth. some "next gen" only games that had their code optimized already for lastgen also kept enjoying 60 fps modes like spiderman 2, but they will also become extinct with time as devs move to new engines / add new stuff that increase cpu render time
truth is: majority of ps5 userbase, in my opinion, don't care about games not having performance modes and these threads we discuss are just echo chambers. i'm sure dragon dogma 2, despite not having a solid 60 fps mode, and despite being a game that barely holds 30 fps, will be best seller for months on PS5
it is why the mentality of pairing a 2.2 ghz jaguar cpu with a rx 480 GPU carried on and we will be having the same zen 2 cpu paired with a decent GPU again.
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Fake
Member
I don't think games need to be patched, besides TLOUS horrible implementation of resolution.
Most of the games use dynamic settings and DRS, unlock frame rate, so as soon as you brute force they start to get a natural boost.
If a patch is need, would be just to turn OFF the AMD FSR and replace for PSSR.
Most of the games use dynamic settings and DRS, unlock frame rate, so as soon as you brute force they start to get a natural boost.
If a patch is need, would be just to turn OFF the AMD FSR and replace for PSSR.
Is it or just a crappy developed game?
DD hasn't released yet, I'm not expecting a performance uplift if the game is struggling now in a preview build but I'll wait until release to see if the performance issues persist.
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Bojji
Member
Plague tale was well below 50fps on places with 3600, in city and places with massive rat amounts, they weren't able to deliver more than 40fps at launch.
Months later they cutted a lot of stuff to make that performance mode possible, number of rats and their animation quality, animation quality of npcs and massive changes in vegetation in "open world" level near the end. Game was CPU limited and still is in graphics mode.
Gotham at launch was dropping below 40fps on 3600, DF tested this. They optimized this game since then but it's still not enough to deliver performance mode on consoles.
They probably could have done this without RT but who knows, that's what Jedi survivor devs did with performance mode that was dropping to 40fps on consoles. Without RT, near Perfect 60.
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yamaci17
Member
yep. this video sums up the problem perfectly
46:40
4x cache (32 mb), 4 ghz+ boost clocks and drops to 40s easily.
sure they improved it, and added some settings to remedy it so nowadays it is better. but it was extremely CPU limited at launch
GPU literally sleeps. the new zen 2 cpu on ps5 pro will most likely come near 3700x. and GPU will probably be more able than 3070ti with rasterization. yet as you can see, even this CPU is an extreme limitation IF you want high framerates.
what they will do, they will just push resolution like they did with ps4 pro and xbox one x.
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NeoGiffer
Member
Therefore surely they should rename this system PS GTA 6 Pro....as why else buy it at this point?!
Will double dip GTA 6 for the PS6 in 2027/2028 would be more of a jump worth paying for.
Leonidas
Member
I doubt it, due to the APUs lacking 3700X amounts of cache and the APU using high latency GDDR6 memory. There will be cases where it comes close, but other cases where it falls behind.
Only PSSSR can save the PS5 Pro's abysmal +45% raster in increasing the perceived resolution meaningfully.
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yamaci17
Member
technically ps5 rasterization by itself is also bottlenecked by extremely slow ray tracing cores
much faster ray tracing performance may allow more than %50 perceived performance gains, at least on the GPU side, which may potentially allow it to increase resolution much further than what the rasterization increase would imply. this sometimes happens betweens RTX GPU family. on raster, there are situations where 4060 and 3060 battles it out, but ray tracing situations where 4060 takes the ball and run away.
ray tracing at times just drags down the entire GPU performance and PS5 GPU probably runs into similar situations. so faster ray tracing cores will probably make up for it. of course at 30 fps targets/resolutions
so it may go like this
ps5 : 60 fps with rasterization
ps5 : 30 fps with ray tracing (2x drop due to slow ray tracing cores)
ps5 pro: 90 fps with rasterization (assuming 1.5x increase over ps5)
ps5 pro: 60 fps with ray tracing (1.5x drop due to faster ray tracing cores)
or just take 6700xt and 3070. both have similar rasterization performance yet 3070 takes the ball and run away with ray tracing. why? simple, it has much faster ray tracing cores. I think this one is a better example.
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Bojji
Member
There will be crappy developed games, we can't do anything about that. But pro won't be able to brute force much better performance if game is limited by CPU power like PS5 was able to do with PS4 games in BC.
Yeah, what I expect are performance modes with good image quality and more stable performance. Games that already targets 60fps on standard PS5 CPU.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
And there are devs that will always do that. I dont think we should expect Sony to make hardware to accommodate for some devs incompetence. And don't kid yourself, even if Sony put a Zen 4 in that thing clocked at 5Ghz with a 4090-grade GPU, devs would still find a way to bottleneck their engines to hell and back and run their games at 30fps.
While we should judge the enjoyment of any game on its own merit, I do not know why we look at the quality and performance of games in a vacuum. For me, I think that it's only fair that for every underperforming APT game out there, we also look at games like HZFW or RE4 remake on the same hardware.
Let me as you a question, and even if you dont answer it here, do try and honestly think about it and answer it honestly.
There are two GPUs.
GPU A has 17.5TF fp32, 12GB of RAM and costs $450.
GPU B has 18.6TF fp32. 16GB of RAM and costs $500.
GPU B has a real-world performance advantage of 18% over GPU B.
GPU A is called a 770XT and GPU B is called a 700XT. But you don't have to use these two GPUs, you can throw in a 4060/4070/ Or a 6700XT and a 6700XT....etc. Whatever. The question though is, do you consider these slightly different GPUs from the same family of products, as 0.1 iterations of themselves? Or do the rules that have been perfectly fine for every other electronic product suddenly just changed when it comes to consoles?
bitbydeath
Member
They’ll show the games when it gets advertised.
I personally can’t wait to see how existing games like Elden Ring look in 8K.
Audiophile
Member
One issue with a weaker CPU on the Pro is that if devs are adamant about getting a 60fps performance mode out of the door in some form on a given game, then with a stronger CPU upgrade they could relegate that mode to the Pro and focus on getting the best simulation/game design possible on the base system at 30/40fps and scale up the fps on the Pro. But with a weak CPU upgrade they'll have to choose, complex simulation/game design at 30/40fps on both or simple simulation/game design at 60fps on both.
I know folks say most games aren't CPU-limited but I think that's very much a holdover from >10yrs of developing for circa-2011 underclocked netbook CPUs from the last gen. Games could and should be pushing the CPU more. We've been pushing pixels over everything else and game worlds have remained quite static.
Just having GTAVI be playable at 60fps on Pro would have been a major win but it'd probably require the base system having a 40fps base mode to begin with and then either a Zen4C @ 3.85GHz or a Zen2 @ 4.5GHz with extra cache on the Pro to reliably get it up ~50%. At a minimum I expect GTAVI to be intermittently CPU-limited.
I'll be getting a Pro still and I don't really care about 60fps myself outside of First-Person games, but I think 40fps is a very nice compromise, so I only hope they can manage that on the Pro along with visual upgrades (I expect the base system will be hitting ~35fps internally if it's getting a locked 30fps).
I know folks say most games aren't CPU-limited but I think that's very much a holdover from >10yrs of developing for circa-2011 underclocked netbook CPUs from the last gen. Games could and should be pushing the CPU more. We've been pushing pixels over everything else and game worlds have remained quite static.
Just having GTAVI be playable at 60fps on Pro would have been a major win but it'd probably require the base system having a 40fps base mode to begin with and then either a Zen4C @ 3.85GHz or a Zen2 @ 4.5GHz with extra cache on the Pro to reliably get it up ~50%. At a minimum I expect GTAVI to be intermittently CPU-limited.
I'll be getting a Pro still and I don't really care about 60fps myself outside of First-Person games, but I think 40fps is a very nice compromise, so I only hope they can manage that on the Pro along with visual upgrades (I expect the base system will be hitting ~35fps internally if it's getting a locked 30fps).
asdasdasdbb
Member
Seems the opposite. Games are going to have to be designed around RT for the PS5 Pro to really show a difference.
Bojji
Member
They’ll show the games when it gets advertised.
I personally can’t wait to see how existing games like Elden Ring look in 8K.
I bet they will finally add 8k output with new HDMI chip (that is able to do 48Gb/s) but don't really expect anything close to "real" 8k experience from this console. Only simple games will be able to render in native resolution like that.
Of course new upscaling will allow them to use much lower resolutions and reconstruct to 8k but how good it will look? We will see.
bitbydeath
Member
Think like PS4 Pro 4K, room for improvement but still noticeably improved to the point people will want to upgrade their TV’s.
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Audiophile
Member
Would be pretty cool if more rudimentary games that are already rendering at or near 4K could upscale to 8K internally and then subsample back down to 4K for really good AA.
Lagspike_exe
Member
There's no point. PSSR can act as a great AA if a game is running at 4K already. Similar to Nvidia DLAA.
Kenpachii
Member
More / better RT also means most likely bigger CPU performance hit.
Leonidas
Member
Or PS5 Pro could get much higher RT settings, which could keep the performance similar to the OG PS5, but with improved IQ. OG PS5 RT settings are low, very low in some cases.
I think it would make more sense for PS5 Pro to get much higher RT settings rather than just increasing FPS on the low RT settings of the PS5.
Ashamam
Member
Like I said earlier, I don't think they are shooting for more/better, they are shooting for less costly in GPU compute. Giving them back resources for other things. Thats not to say devs prioritise things differently, but I don't think its the intention of Sony. That will come in the PS6.
Bernardougf
Gold Member
Exactly...
I know I in the minority but I truly woudnt mind a 1000 dollar premium console that would get me into the whole gen ... better than this mid gen refresh bullshit
James Sawyer Ford
Member
People that are concerned about the lack of CPU bump don't seem to have a good grasp of the reality of this refresh and the reality of the development landscape.
No, most games are *NOT* CPU limited to any great degree. CPUs can help with a lot of things, but in many ways devs are nowhere near ambitious enough to truly take advantage of them in any meaningful ways. Most game logic, physics, etc. is not much radically different from when developers were more constrained with Jaguar cores.
And if the PS5 Pro did introduce a modern CPU with much higher clocks - who would develop for it? You can't just magically write better AI code, or physics code, which would fundamentally change the way the game plays versus the mass market base PS5 audience. It does not make any sense to increase the CPU. We already get 60 fps games in the *VAST* majority of titles. By default, these games will get an instant bump to the 60 fps modes thanks to the higher raster, better RT, and superior AI methods.
We are only going to get a dramatic increase to the CPU when it's a new generation and developers slowly start taking advantage of it - but even when the PS6 launches, most devs will still be limited by 2020 console CPUs because we're back to the whole "cross gen" thing. It won't be until mid-PS6 generation that CPUs *MAY* start being taken advantage of, and even then it seems like the entire industry is having a brain drain moment. Maybe advancements in AI will help developers create more dynamic interactions that truly take advantage of additional CPU might.
No, most games are *NOT* CPU limited to any great degree. CPUs can help with a lot of things, but in many ways devs are nowhere near ambitious enough to truly take advantage of them in any meaningful ways. Most game logic, physics, etc. is not much radically different from when developers were more constrained with Jaguar cores.
And if the PS5 Pro did introduce a modern CPU with much higher clocks - who would develop for it? You can't just magically write better AI code, or physics code, which would fundamentally change the way the game plays versus the mass market base PS5 audience. It does not make any sense to increase the CPU. We already get 60 fps games in the *VAST* majority of titles. By default, these games will get an instant bump to the 60 fps modes thanks to the higher raster, better RT, and superior AI methods.
We are only going to get a dramatic increase to the CPU when it's a new generation and developers slowly start taking advantage of it - but even when the PS6 launches, most devs will still be limited by 2020 console CPUs because we're back to the whole "cross gen" thing. It won't be until mid-PS6 generation that CPUs *MAY* start being taken advantage of, and even then it seems like the entire industry is having a brain drain moment. Maybe advancements in AI will help developers create more dynamic interactions that truly take advantage of additional CPU might.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I expected people to be disappointed by the paper specs, let’s wait and see this thing run, hearing very good things about it.
I. Cant. Wait.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
The only thing I'm disappointed with on paper is that we have a 70% bump in TFLOPS but only a 45% increase in raster (perhaps we don't really know definitively what this means or it just confirms that higher TFLOPs don't scale as much as we'd like), but my guess it this view will be misguided once we see the final outcome. Because, once you take everything together you get a pretty meaningful increase in image quality and don't really have to compromise much anymore on getting 60fps with a decent looking image.
If as what you say is true - that we are getting roughly 4070 performance on a console - that seems like a win to me. It wasn't too long ago that this type of performance was really high end on the PC market. Obviously PC has better now, but give that kind of technology on a closed platform and you will see developers like Kojima, Naughty Dog, etc. make fantastic looking titles that truly raise the bar.
asdasdasdbb
Member
Processor ranking: AMD and Intel CPU benchmark comparison
Which CPU to buy for games and apps? ComputerBase provides buying advice with Intel Core i-14000 and AMD Ryzen 7000(X3D) based on tests.
www.computerbase.de
Difference between 5800X and 7700X is only 23%... but the difference can be like 50% or more in some games. The 7800X3D can be another 25-30% on top of that.
Granted this is with a 4090.
It's likely 96 ROPs with a slight clock speed drop.
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