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[Ashes]

This is paraphrasing here but the phrase they used is "coming into Islam by oneself." The implication being that it isn't recognized if he does it because he wants to marry this woman, it has to be of his own free will. It's really weird to me because I never even knew Islam had those rules about marriage. The only other Muslim I am sort of close with is a lot older and married a Christian woman with no major problems - she converted. My opinion as a kafir is the woman should make her own decisions based on what she wants - what's the point of religion if it keeps you from being happy? It just seems wrong to me that the family would make the guy jump through all these hoops when he's already very accepting of her beliefs. If he wasn't, why would he be willing to convert? That's life I suppose. Not much to do other than try to understand.

Ah, coverting to islam, or being Muslim for convenience's sake. I think I understand now. Muslims believe Islam is the truth, if you don't believe that Islam is the truth, you are not Muslim. Makes sense, no? The belief part comes before everything. A person -so to speak- stands alone.

and if you think the point of religion is to be happy, then that is another subtle but significant difference. To be Muslim, you got to believe it's the truth.

 

[F#A#Oo]

From my POV, it's pretty clear what he meant. Judaism as it is today is more tolerant to interfaith marriages and more accomodating of converts than Islam is. Both theologically but also in practice with anecdotal evidence.

Not really...as mentioned the Talmud prohibits interfaith marriages so theologically there is no accomodating...it's the adherents who create the accomodation.

so women are limited due to their ability to give birth? I think you are utilising one of the explanations to justify the ruling...

Well...you can use any number of explanations but the bottom line is that it always comes right back to disbelief risk...

Parents are responsible for their childrens upbringing...so if children wander into and grow up in disbelief...guess who is responsible?

 

[Instigator]

Not really...as mentioned the Talmud prohibits interfaith marriages so theologically there is no accomodating...it's the adherents who create the accomodation.

Moot point.

The Torah also prohibits it. Just like it prohibits a whole bunch of silly stuff as part of the Kashrut. Religious Jews are in fact divided on this issue. Some are fundamentalists and follow it blindly, others are not so sheepish.

Of course, we're not even talking about secular Jews.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Moot point.

The Torah also prohibits it. Just like it prohibits a whole bunch of silly stuff as part of the Kashrut. Religious Jews are in fact divided on this issue. Some are fundamentalists and follow it blindly, others are not so sheepish.

Of course, we're not even talking about secular Jews.

I was just correcting the "theologically" part as scripture is clear on it's position...everything else is really the moot point because we can just put it all to one side as non-adherence to scripture and the religion.

Even if 90% of Jewish marriages were interfaith marriages it still wouldn't mean there is a theological basis for the recognition of these marriages.

It's not the religion that bends to the needs of the followers but the people who bend to the religion.

 

[Smellycat]

Moot point.

The Torah also prohibits it. Just like it prohibits a whole bunch of silly stuff as part of the Kashrut. Religious Jews are in fact divided on this issue. Some are fundamentalists and follow it blindly, others are not so sheepish.

Of course, we're not even talking about secular Jews.

How is that a moot point? If a religion prohibits something and the people don't follow it, but follow other rules in the religion, that makes them hypocrites.

That is why a lot of religious people piss me off (even muslims), especially some Israeli jews. They are hypocrites. They claim that Israel is their divine right and that god gave it to them and it says so in the Torah, but then they ignore many other teachings and pick and choose the ones that fit their lifestyle.

 

[Instigator]

How is that a moot point? If a religion prohibits something and the people don't follow it, but follow other rules in the religion, that makes them hypocrites.

That is why a lot of religious people piss me off (even muslims), especially some Israeli jews. They are hypocrites. They claim that Israel is their divine right and that god gave it to them and it says so in the Torah, but then they ignore many other teachings and pick and choose the ones that fit their lifestyle.

Ah, a fundamentalist POV.

People pick and choose what they like and it's how religions stay relevant through the centuries. Do you really want to stone adulturers and prostitutes? Most people, even religious ones, think it's stupid.

 

[Smellycat]

Ah, a fundamentalist POV.

People pick and choose what they like and it's how religions stay relevant through the centuries. Do you really want to stone adulturers and prostitutes? Most people, even religious ones, think it's stupid.

Well, if Jews believe that the Torah is God's final message to humanity then shouldn't they be following their scriptures?? After all, it is their law. I don't support the practice, but if they refuse to follow a practice that is mandated by God in the Torah, then what does that say about them? The same logic goes for other religions.

They are being hypocrites.

 

[Instigator]

Well, if Jews believe that the Torah is God's final message to humanity then shouldn't they be following their scriptures?? After all, it is their law. I don't support the practice, but if they refuse to follow a practice that is mandated by God in the Torah, then what does that say about them? The same logic goes for other religions.

They are being hypocrites.

They're not hypocrites. Mentalities change. If they read a passage that they disagree with then there are only three possible reactions:

"No, no, no, this is wrong, I can not justify this in any way". Disbelief's likely to follow.

"I'm missing something here, I need to study this further." On the fence.

"I believe in a just God so that passage can not be meant to be taken literally." New interpretation is born.

It might shock you to hear that religious people are not all simpletons, dupes and robots.

 

[Azih]

They're not hypocrites. Mentalities change. If they read a passage that they disagree with then there are only three possible reactions:

"No, no, no, this is wrong, I can not justify this in any way". Disbelief's likely to follow.

"I'm missing something here, I need to study this further." On the fence.

"I believe in a just God so that passage can not be meant to be taken literally." New interpretation is born.

It might shock you to hear that religious people are not all simpletons, dupes and robots.

To be fair there is another reaction

"Uhh.. I'm just not going to think about this"

Which is fine as long as it's acknowledged. When it's not acknowledged is when things get frustrating.

 

[esquire]

Ah, coverting to islam, or being Muslim for convenience's sake. I think I understand now. Muslims believe Islam is the truth, if you don't believe that Islam is the truth, you are not Muslim. Makes sense, no? The belief part comes before everything. A person -so to speak- stands alone.

and if you think the point of religion is to be happy, then that is another subtle but significant difference. To be Muslim, you got to believe it's the truth.

I can't speak for him so I don't know what's in his heart when he says he is willing to convert to Islam. His family is Muslim and that's where this issue becomes even more muddy and complicated.

I don't think the point of religion is to make you happy but all the same I don't think religion should be the cause of a person's unhappiness.

 

[Ashes]

I can't speak for him so I don't know what's in his heart when he says he is willing to convert to Islam. His family is Muslim and that's where this issue becomes even more muddy and complicated.

I don't think the point of religion is to make you happy but all the same I don't think religion should be the cause of a person's unhappiness.

Existential questions drive people to all sorts of thoughts and thought processes. So I don't know how to answer that question. I think we've transgressed into a circle closing into its self.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I was curious because of the experience of my friend? People are allowed to ask questions on a public forum and you are free not to answer them if they are offending you by asking.

Your type of thinking is exactly why I can't respect Islam. Sorry.



The question wasn't if it was easier to convert to Islam.



Congrats? My friend wants to convert but the woman's parents won't accept.

Again, you are free to ask questions, it is not your asking that causes offence, it is your refusal to listen to the answers to your questions.

This is the problem with taking your understandings from anecdotes, in this case, where a person seeks conversion, it is assumed that they have no alterior motive, even if an apparent motive exists. If one says the shahadah, then that is what matters.

So in the case you describe, if their family is unwilling to accept his conversion, then that is upon them, and they are divergent in that respect. I can give you any number of anecdotes of men who have converted and then got married.

While I converted before I met my wife, some meet a woman they wish to marry and then convert. Of course, that does not speak to any insincerity in their conversion as I know sisters and brothers who then got divorced because their partner was not religious enough!

One has to marvel at the cherry picking going on here. Orthodox Muslims are taken as being repressentative of the whole religion, but Orthodox Jews are not? The assertion that religious Jews, even reformists, are any more fine with interfaith marriage than their Muslim counterparts remains to be evidenced.

 

[OttomanScribe]

From my POV, it's pretty clear what he meant. Judaism as it is today is more tolerant to interfaith marriages and more accomodating of converts than Islam is. Both theologically but also in practice with anecdotal evidence.

Theologically, all that is required for a conversion in Islam is the statement of belief. This is regardless of race. Alternatively, Judaism actively discourages conversion for those not ethnically Jewish. In my experience there is nothing to indicate that Islam is less accommodating of converts, indeed look at the experience of 'Black Jews' in Israel, it seems that Islam has far fewer problems in relation to this issue.

I can throw all manner of anecdotes at you, as I know many converts, but that is not how debate works. We are not in an anecdote urinating competition. In a theological sense Islam is more tolerant on both points, as the Qur'an, unlike the Torah, does not say that the children of that relationship are lost to the religion.

Your confusion is a bit silly. Your Haaretz link is also puzzling since it acknowledges the reality of interfaith marriages within Judaism, despite right-wing nutcases crying about it.

It shows that the Israeli state (which admittedly might be right wing nutcases) views it as so much of a problem as to require advertisements attacking it, likening those who marry out of the religion as 'missing'. Some liken interfaith marriages between Jews and non-Jews to 'doing Hitler's work'.

Come on, OS, why do you have to play games? Islam is stricker on this matter and you yourself want it to be. No need to write an essay as a reply, just say "yes".

I am sure you would love it were I to eschew actual replies in favour of monosyllables. However my reply to this is: no.

I believe that there is an Orthodox Muslim position on the issue of interfaith marriage, however it is no more stricter than the orthodox position of all the other Abrahamaic faiths, all of whom, on the whole, prohibit it. To single out Islam in this respect, is to show one's own biases.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

But the point is, she was allowed to convert in order for the marriage to be recognized. Islam doesn't recognize conversion if it's a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman. It does if it's a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman though.

No. If a non-Muslim, irregardless of whether they be the male or female partner, did convert to Islam then they can marry any other Muslim without issue. In this case you would effectively have two Muslims marrying each other; this is not an example of interfaith marriage however.

From earlier I this thread, sorry I can't quote properly b/c I'm on a tablet,

Were you lying when you told me this?

They are two very different examples. Isla Fisher's marriage isn't one of interfaith, she had to convert to Judaism in order to marry him if the union were to be recognised by his Jewish faith. In the case of interfaith marriages in Islam, a Muslim man can marry a Christian or Jewish woman without her converting/accepting Islam herself. A comparative example to the Fisher/Cohen marriage would be if a Hindu woman converted to Islam in order to marry a Muslim man.

Then again maybe I misunderstood your point and if so apologise now.

In regards to whether the other Abrahamic faiths are more tolerant to interfaith marriages than Islam, I can't comment on Judaism but I do believe that Roman Catholicism, for example, to be more lenient with it

 

[Ashes]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4594101.../t/al-azhar-sheik-proposes-bill-rights-egypt/

The head of Al-Azhar, the pre-eminent institute of Islamic learning in the Sunni Muslim world, put forward a Bill of Rights on Tuesday upholding freedom of expression and belief ahead of the drafting of Egypt's new constitution.

The bill, which was in the works for three months in collaboration with secular and Islamist thinkers, is a bid by Al-Azhar to assert its role as the voice of moderate Islam in the face of growing political power of more conservative Islamic groups in Egypt following the February ouster of President Hosni Mubarak.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I love the manner of the Habib

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAOr4oemfqQ

Habib Ali Al Jifri, the Beard in Islam.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Do you use anything for your beard OS?

I just started to use coconut oil and its pretty amazing...soft and shiny beard and I can comb is without tugging. I use to use shampoo or hair conditioner but it caused me to have beard dandruff...lol

I have now started to use coconut oil on my hair too...no need for shampoo anymore either...just leave my hair and beard with the coconut oil overnight and rinse with warm water in the morning.

 

[Nemo]

Salaam brothers

Quick question about alcohol in foods and such. Is it haram when in small dosages that don't get you intoxicated? Like storebought Tiramisu for example. Preferably I'm looking for Quran verses regarding intoxication, thanks!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4594101.../t/al-azhar-sheik-proposes-bill-rights-egypt/

The head of Al-Azhar, the pre-eminent institute of Islamic learning in the Sunni Muslim world, put forward a Bill of Rights on Tuesday upholding freedom of expression and belief ahead of the drafting of Egypt's new constitution.

The bill, which was in the works for three months in collaboration with secular and Islamist thinkers, is a bid by Al-Azhar to assert its role as the voice of moderate Islam in the face of growing political power of more conservative Islamic groups in Egypt following the February ouster of President Hosni Mubarak.

I think the intention here is good, but parts of the muslim world are going to need to be dragged kicking and screaming in to moderation. They're overly reliant on the current social structure and I feel like people are going to be more accepting of some of the rougher consequences of that for the sake of stability.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Do you use anything for your beard OS?

I just started to use coconut oil and its pretty amazing...soft and shiny beard and I can comb is without tugging. I use to use shampoo or hair conditioner but it caused me to have beard dandruff...lol

I have now started to use coconut oil on my hair too...no need for shampoo anymore either...just leave my hair and beard with the coconut oil overnight and rinse with warm water in the morning.

Never tried the Coconut oil thing. I don't really use anything in my beard, it is usually pretty clean though I might try that, I love the smell of coconuts!

I get a decent trim and shave (neck/cheeks) at a barber once every month or so. Other wise I keep my cheeks and neck shaved and my moustache trimmed to a non-wahhabi length

Quick question about alcohol in foods and such. Is it haram when in small dosages that don't get you intoxicated? Like storebought Tiramisu for example. Preferably I'm looking for Quran verses regarding intoxication, thanks!

Walaykum Salaam Wa Rahmetullah

What madhab are you from, as that will answer the question.

In the Shafi'i madhab, as khamr (wine) is najas (impure), anything that was in the form of a solution with wine or alcohol, is also najas. This means that even if the alcohol has been 'burned off' (which is ineffective anyway) anything that previously contained it, remains impermissible to consume (not because it is intoxicating, but because it is impure).

I gather that the Hanafi ruling is a bit different in this respect. As they can eat things that I cannot.

Why do you specify verses from the Qur'an? The impermissability of consuming alcohol (regardless of intoxication) is in the Qur'an. There is also however an important hadith that relates to it, specifically 'anything that intoxicates in small quantities is forbidden in large quantities'.

Simply put, consumption of alcohol itself is impermissible, intoxication is not, as far as I am aware, mentioned in the Quranic verses that relate to this. Of course my understanding is limited, here are some links with a better and further discussion:

A Guide for Consuming Various Meats, Foods, Alcohol, Animal By-Product Ingredients, and Cosmetics
http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...-animal-by-product-ingredients-and-cosmetics/

What is the Ruling on Using Solid Intoxicants as flavourings in food?
http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...d-intoxicants-as-flavor-ingredients-in-foods/

Did Imam Abu Hanifa distinguish between the legal rulings for wine and beer?
http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...-between-the-legal-rulings-for-wine-and-beer/

 

[Ashes]

David Jacobs, a senior conservator, is displaying one of the oldest known copies of the Koran, which dates from the 8th century, to mark the launch of a new exhibition at the British Museum, "Hajj: Journey to the Heart of Islam", which opens to the public on 26 January.

 

[Ashes]

Millions of Muslims gather in Bangladesh

Around three million Muslim pilgrims gathered along the banks of the Turag River on the outskirts of Dhaka, Bangladesh for Bishwa Ijtema, an annual Islamic meeting. It is considered to be the second largest Muslim congregation after the Hajj Pilgrimage to Mecca.

[slideshow of photograps at link]

 

[CHEEZMO™]

David Jacobs, a senior conservator, is displaying one of the oldest known copies of the Koran, which dates from the 8th century, to mark the launch of a new exhibition at the British Museum, "Hajj: Journey to the Heart of Islam", which opens to the public on 26 January.

Fascinating.

I wish I could go check it out - that exhibition sounds cool.

 

[-COOLIO-]

girlfriend is worried about possibly being honor killed by her father, advice?

im serious

 

[RustyNails]

girlfriend is worried about possibly being honor killed by her father, advice?

im serious

Inform the cops

 

[-COOLIO-]

Inform the cops

what happens after that?

its more like, if her parents found out about me it would be a real possibility. her dad recently condoned the practice

and he saw me drop her off near her house recently. he got my licence plate and was apparently 'this' close to ramming me. she's worried to the point that she wants me to get off facebook because she thinks he'd try to find me.

 

[crazy monkey]

talk to the father.

 

[Kisaya]

How old is she? I hope everything will be okay.

 

[-COOLIO-]

talk to the father.

hahahaha

he's 65, set in his ways, and a fucking idiot.

How old is she? I hope everything will be okay.

21

edit: i emailed the local police for advice

 

[Kisaya]

hahahaha

he's 65, set in his ways, and a fucking idiot.




21

edit: i emailed the local police for advice

Where are they from? And how far are you two in your relationship? (sorry if this is too personal)

 

[Codeblue]

hahahaha

he's 65, set in his ways, and a fucking idiot.




21

edit: i emailed the local police for advice

Can she support herself? Because with the way you're describing the situation makes it seem like she is going to be disowned.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Where are they from? And how far are you two in your relationship? (sorry if this is too personal)

the family is from saudi arabia. her parents and older brothers are pretty embedded in the culture.

dating for 6 months, known each other for over a year and half

 

[Kisaya]

Can she support herself? Because with the way you're describing the situation makes it seem like she is going to be disowned.

Yeah that's what I think too. It really depends on how far they've gone though. If you two have just been innocently dating then they'll probably just isolate her in the house. However, if you slept with her and they're really conservative, then they'll either disown her or, if they're really nuts, kill her.

the family is from saudi arabia. her parents and older brothers are pretty embedded in the culture.

dating for 6 months, known each other for over a year and half

ouch, bad country. DX

 

[-COOLIO-]

Yeah that's what I think too. It really depends on how far they've gone though. If you two have just been innocently dating then they'll probably just isolate her in the house. However, if you slept with her and they're really conservative, then they'll either disown her or, if they're really nuts, kill her.

shes isolated right now, she rather convincingly (i hope) told them im just some guy she barely knew who was giving her a ride.

ive slept with her and yeah thatd be a big deal to the parents. slut, whore, etc is there go to derogative when shes out past 12

 

[Kisaya]

shes isolated right now, she rather convincingly (i hope) told them im just some guy she barely knew who was giving her a ride.

ive slept with her and yeah thatd be a big deal to the parents. slut, whore, etc is there go to derogative when shes out past 12

You have to be really careful with her now. If there's any chance her family finds out she's not a virgin then you should help her gfto as soon as possible.

 

[-COOLIO-]

You have to be really careful with her now. If there's any chance her family finds out she's not a virgin then you should help her gfto as soon as possible.

yup

 

[crazy monkey]

Have you talked to her family ever? Some times things are not that crazy if veil of secrecy is lifted.Did the girl told you she fear for her life?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Have you talked to her family ever? Some times things are not that crazy if veil of secrecy is lifted.Did the girl told you she fear for her life?

yes, especially if she were to move out.

and no, ive never met the family apart from her younger siblings.

i did get to see a black eye her brother gave her though.

all the older men are hitters at the very least.

one of the brothers is bipolar and prone to anger, he was previously arrested for beating up 3 people, breaking one person arm. the dad bailed him out.

 

[Zapages]

Have you talked to her family ever? Some times things are not that crazy if veil of secrecy is lifted.Did the girl told you she fear for her life?

Ditto these sentiments... They will ask you to convert to Islam. Don't tell them that you two slept together. They will ask you two to get married ASAP after they get to know you better.

My neighbor's daughter married an Italian guy after he said the Shadahat. They were living together for 3 or 6 months before they got married. Yeah I know... But you get the idea of things. These folks were Pakistani.

 

[F#A#Oo]

GAF can't help you on this...talk to the police and try and find out what the family is doing and thinking.

One thing is for sure if you want this relationship than she needs to move out...

 

[Zapages]

Are you two willing to get married. That is what it comes down to at the end of it all. Ie. Are you two serious about it or just doing this for fun/thrill.

 

[-COOLIO-]

GAF can't help you on this...talk to the police and try and find out what the family is doing and thinking.

One thing is for sure if you want this relationship than she needs to move out...

yup

 

[Kisaya]

Are you two willing to get married. That is what it comes down to at the end of it all. Ie. Are you two serious about it or just doing this for fun/thrill.

I don't know about coolio but it seems like she's pretty serious. I mean if I were in her situation with a family like that, I wouldn't give my virginity to a guy I wasn't that serious about.

Also I don't think her family will come after her if she moved out. They'll probably go crazy cause now they're "shamed" but not that far to go after her and try to kill her...

 

[Codeblue]

Are you two willing to get married. That is what it comes down to at the end of it all. Ie. Are you two serious about it or just doing this for fun/thrill.

I doubt they'll give her away unless he converts. There is really no way out of this situation with the family's approval otherwise.

Best of luck, Coolio.

Edit: I do hope you intend to marry her though. If she moves out, you're going to be all the family she has.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I don't know about coolio but it seems like she's pretty serious. I mean if I were in her situation with a family like that, I wouldn't give my virginity to a guy I wasn't that serious about.

Also I don't think her family will come after her if she moved out. They'll probably go crazy cause now they're "shamed" but not that far to go after her and try to kill her...

maybe shes still really emotional about the night her dad saw me drop her off but that is in fact what she believes might happen. she thinks that's likely

 

[Zapages]

I don't know about coolio but it seems like she's pretty serious. I mean if I were in her situation with a family like that, I wouldn't give my virginity to a guy I wasn't that serious about.

She might be or might not be... Also Coolio are you serious about this girl? I have heard a couple Muslim girls going out with other non-Muslims for the thrill and doing crazy stuff. I don't know if it was true or not... As its their own life. In the end of it, they were doing it for the thrill and the new found freedom that they got at the university level. *shrugs*.

But they (Coolio and the girl) really need to have have serious discussion concerning this before they continue their relationship

Coolio are you willing to convert to Islam? Are you two serious to get married?

 

[-COOLIO-]

She might be or might not be... Also Coolio are you serious about this girl? I have heard a couple Muslim girls going out with other non-Muslims for the thrill and doing crazy stuff. I don't know if it was true or not... As its their own life. In the end of it, they were doing it for the thrill and the new found freedom that they got at the university level. *shrugs*.

But they (Coolio and the girl) really need to have have serious discussion concerning this before they continue their relationship

Coolio are you willing to convert to Islam? Are you two serious to get married?

convert to islam? no, her parents wouldnt accept it anyway, im not even the right race for them. as for marriage i dont know if ill ever get married, but yeah we talk about all this stuff, we're messaging each other right now. honestly, this is even about us dating, its about the fact that shes living with a crazy family. even if we split her situation still wouldnt good for her

 

[F#A#Oo]

Are you willing to marry her?

 

[Kisaya]

maybe shes still really emotional about the night her dad saw me drop her off but that is in fact what she believes might happen. she thinks that's likely

I mean if I were in her place I would be more emotional that I have to branch out of my family. But really if she does want to get away from them then she has nothing to worry about if she leaves. If she does, call the police.

She might be or might not be... Also Coolio are you serious about this girl? I have heard a couple Muslim girls going out with other non-Muslims for the thrill and doing crazy stuff. I don't know if it was true or not... As its their own life. In the end of it, they were doing it for the thrill and the new found freedom that they got at the university level. *shrugs*.

But they (Coolio and the girl) really need to have have serious discussion concerning this before they continue their relationship

Coolio are you willing to convert to Islam? Are you two serious to get married?

A bunch of girls "do it for the thrill." But to sleep with the guy? That's a really big step. If they just sleep around "for the thrill" then obviously they're not concerned with what their parents think, and/or their parent's probably don't care/aren't conservative.

 

[Kisaya]

convert to islam? no, her parents wouldnt accept it anyway, im not even the right race for them. as for marriage i dont know if ill ever get married, but yeah we talk about all this stuff, we're messaging each other right now. honestly, this is even about us dating, its about the fac that shes living with a crazy family. even if we split her situation still wouldnt good for her

Her parents might consider it if they find out you slept her, to avoid people finding out about it. That's if they care about reputation however, but try avoid bringing that subject up.
And yes I agree, splitting up still doesn't solve her situation. I think she needs to move out.