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Wii U Speculation Thread 2: Can't take anymore of this!!!

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z0m3le

Banned

Yeah, I think people are a bit too obsessed with what the numbers are, the fact that Wii U will have at least shader model 4.0, and more ram than PS360 means the games will look better on the system, shader model 5 doesn't actually improve that much over 4, so we will just get lower resolution ports and that is fine with me. Give me 1080p Zelda, and 720p AC4, I can live perfectly happy with a 1 console future. (I'm obviously a PC gamer as much as I talk about these cards lol)

Rösti;35337771 said:

They could very easily put a thunderbolt type connection in the Wii U, for a newer GPU, the add-on would only need to cost say $100 and could depending on size of the add-on bring an HD7970 or even higher graphics, maybe even with it's own video memory on board to offset the change in resolution.

BUT, I just assume Nintendo puts something with at least 480spu in the Wii U from the get go, seriously at that point nothing the x720 or ps4 can do would completely push Wii U out of the generation, unless they were going for sky high consoles beyond even the ps360 jump.
 
Reading through these last few pages is frustrating. Neither lherre nor Arkham claimed to be in possession of the "more powerful" final dev kits released about a month ago. lherre claimed that Nintendo were experimenting with 2 RAM amounts and that his company got a kit with the higher amount (higher than 2 GB so most likely 3 GB, going by the "dev kit double RAM rule"). It's totally possible Arkham's company had the dev kit with only 2 GB. Lherre also said Nintendo were shooting for the higher amount, but we'll need someone with access to a final dev kit to confirm how it all turned out.
 
Speculation about the power of the dev kits, even the last few pages of Arkam saga - hasn't informed me one jot. I am less sure about what other people know, and I personally know about as much as I did last week... which isn't a lot.

I do hope Nintendo start getting some news out soon... tomorrow would be a good start. E3 can be the blow-out, but a few teases and incidental announcements to whip up hype towards the expo might be nice.

There's been only one real problem with everything. People for whatever reason have interpreted the early dev kits to be a 100% representation of the final hardware. That just doesn't happen. Even some of Wii's early kits were modified Gamecubes (insert jokes about Wii still being a modified Gamecube).

With Arkam I believed him from the beginning, but some things weren't sitting right with what he was saying and I said as much. Now I understand why and that's because he doesn't have direct access to the kit and is instead passing on what he was told. The fact (and I do believe him on that as well) that they had to scale their games back though isn't something I can attribute to the hardware as that is way more likely due to how they were designing their game(s) for PS360 hardware. Too many have already said otherwise to believe it's the dev kit's fault they had to scale back the game. However Arkam has been very clear in multiple posts that he was talking about the earlier dev kit.

Going back to what I was saying I don't see how people can say some of things they have in regards to expecting the early kit to be like final. Let's look at all the info we have been given.

This is going to revolve around the GPU and memory. First is that we've had multiple, yet consistent, indications that the GPU in the dev kit was an RV770 though which one has been tough to pin down. This means that the GPU in the case is on a 55nm process which fully clocked is going to be hot. Not long after E3 we learned that the GPU had been underclocked. Lherre also told us that anytime they pushed the GPU it would freeze. I believe one or two others on the board that know someone mentioned that as well around that time. There is a very good chance that the GPU was underclocked under 500Mhz for stability. And when I say under I don't mean barely under.

We also have to acknowledge that this was most likely an "off-the-shelf" part. What does this mean? It means the dev kit most likely does not have the eDRAM that Nintendo is saying it will have. The lack of that would cause a big deficiency when developing. Look at the Zelda demo. The lighting and textures were beautiful, but that thing was so jaggy you could cut your hand if you touched the screen. Arkam's post also has backed that up with his comment on the memory being slow. It's obvious the system memory even in the final won't have some huge bandwidth or else they wouldn't need the eDRAM in the first place. But with the dev kit not having that eDRAM leaving the BW-hungry things like AA to depend on the slower system memory, then you can understand why we saw what we did in the Zelda demo. But I also attribute that to the amount of time they had to create it while also focusing on controller interaction.

Going to the memory what we know is that dev kits tend to have twice the memory of what the final would have. We know that like past Nintendo consoles there is the early kit that looks like a plain black (or grey for the GC if I remember correctly) case, and also in the last thread lherre said he had the "ugly, retail version". That alone indicated that there were two aesthetically different dev kits in the wild. And it's plausible that the black Wii U kit has less memory on top of other things that were an issue back then. It may very well have only had 1GB while lherre's "newer" kit has way more. So we have to wonder that if there are actual differences then which one does Arkam's company have? We also know thanks to lherre that there had been no "real" changes in "ugly, retail version" for a good while. Considering the GPU in the dev kit, the memory was most likely GDDR3. With the 4830/4850 that memory is, according to Wikipedia, clocked at 900/993Mhz so it's not like that is dramatically more than the 700Mhz GDDR3 in the 360. And even then we don't know if that was underclocked either. We also know that the kit has at least 2GB and most likely has the max amount. Considering the target max for the retail console is 1.5GB, that would put the dev kit at 3GB.

Personally when I look at all the info, as of now I think the GPU in the dev kit looks something like this. When looking at the amount of memory, the GPU in the kit is most likely a 4850 due to the bus because they would need a larger bus for the extra memory as the 4830 has a 128-bit bus. But at the same time they probably disabled a couple SIMDs to help reduce heat making it more comparable to the 4830 from a power perspective. The latter of course not including the underclocking on top of that to reduce heat. After all as we know that's a 55nm GPU and they probably did as much as they could to get the heat down till the final GPU is ready on what is pretty much guaranteed to be a smaller process and probably 32nm.

So for me as I said before my expectations have not changed. My guesstimated specs are the same barring certain, yet small, things that may have changed in the final hardware. Miyamoto said Wii U won't dramatically outperform PS360 and I agree with that. At the same time it's not going to be blown away by Xbox 3 and PS4 like Wii was, which was intentional on Nintendo's part.

I've seen no reason to get upset with anything that was said recently. The info was consistent with what we have heard. And while the opinion on that info was not consistent, that doesn't degrade the info itself. That's what some need to understand instead of getting so riled up. Separate the opinion from the facts that were given.
 
Reading through these last few pages is frustrating. Neither lherre nor Arkham claimed to be in possession of the "more powerful" final dev kits released about a month ago. lherre claimed that Nintendo were experimenting with 2 RAM amounts and that his company got a kit with the higher amount (higher than 2 GB so most likely 3 GB, going by the "dev kit double RAM rule"). It's totally possible Arkham's kit had the dev kit with only 1 GB. Lherre also said Nintendo were shooting for the higher amount, but we'll need someone with access to a final dev kit to confirm how it all turned out.
but they aren't the only 2 we've heard from. There is also kotaku + IGN + didn't BG say something along the lines of lherre.

edit: speak of the devil lol
 
It's going to be up to whether devs working on Wii U games can utilize the controller to provide gamers with new, compelling experiences - and if Nintendo can effectively market it to the gaming public. If all those cards fall into place, then the Wii U could very well be a hit. Power doesn't sell consoles, only games do. It's been that way since Pong.

The Wii got non-gamers and former gamers into video gaming by making games accessible and fun for a wide audience. They expanded their focus to include a larger market and reaped the rewards shortly afterwards. Similarly, the Wii U expands the focus to include core gamers who are growing tired of the same old same old, whether they realize it or not.

So as far as why 3rd parties would even bother with it... Because of money. Now that they won't have to rewrite their game engines from scratch like with the Wii, it won't be too expensive to get their games on the system.

I rather like the cut of your jib. You seem to get it.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Best post in the thread.

Thanks, I will be happy anywhere between where I guess the minimum is (trinity) and where you assume it is (>1Tflop) though I certainly would like you to be right. hopefully we can stop talking about Arkam, though I think we should thank him, it was info that we didn't have afterall.
 

Hiltz

Member
It looks like there's 2 more Wii U titles in the works.


One of the lead designers from developer Pipeworks listed on his profile that he's involved in an unannounced Wii U project. Pipeworks has made Godzilla titles, Deadliest Warrior, Rampage: Total Destruction, Night at the Museum, Zumba Fitness as well as uDraw. So most of the software he's worked on has been mediocre.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jess-kappeler/8/55b/427

Freelance composer, David Franco, has worked on 5th Cell's previous games like Scribblenauts, Drawn to Life, Lock's Quest. He's listed on his profile that he's working on an unannounced Wii U launch title.

http://www.anddev.org/jobs-teams-f24/aaa-audio-designer-great-rates-t60150.html
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
How can you rationalize the "have to scale down 360 games" comment? The possibility about the system kit using DDR3 and whatever game he's working/knows-about isn't optimized to use the "large pool for of EDRAM" is among the few i can see that make sense.
 
Great summary

What are your current thoughts regarding RAM? Will they stick with GDDR3? The 256bit bus in those stock cards seems unlikely, which in the past, we have taken to indicate that GDDR5 on a 128bit or 96bit bus was a possibility. Btw, according to Wiki, the 4830 also has a 256bit bus. However, I am thinking now that they may have used the wider bus to ballpark the effect the eDRAM would have in the final kits.

Also, since the RAM was described as slow (though I'm with you in that it was likely dowclocked for the dev kits along w/ the GPU core itself), and we talked about synching clocks a few pages back, just for the hell of it, lemme pull some clocks out of my ass and take another stab at the specs.

CPU: 3.6Ghz Tri Core PPC (OoOE, 2-way SMT, 3 MB L2 cache)
GPU: 600 Mhz (640:32:16 core config. They may have been aiming for 800 SPUs, but I think that would run too hot even at 32 nm)
Memory: 1.5 GB of 900Mhz(x2, so 1800) GDDR3 on a (96 or 196?) bit bus.
eDRAM: 32 Megabytes on a daughter die of the GPU.

And before I get jumped on, I know they're only specs and don't matter as much as other things (software and services), but it's been fun in these threads. It's like unraveling a mystery. Thanks Nintendo. You've given us a new game to play by doing absolutely nothing. :p
 
really? Why? The wii was in a MUCHMUCH worse position than the WiiU will be. Shouldn't you have started really worrying then?

I had no idea, that the level of attention given to Wii would diminish personally as the generation went forward. My Wii hasn't been turned on for nearly two years. This is due to me being a videophile.
 
So Nintendo posted this on facebook:

416976_247353638682430_119240841493711_533026_825466827_n.jpg
‎#Regginator himself was spotted getting ready to make some announcements. Stay tuned on this page tomorrow for the latest and the greatest!

OMGAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! I wonder what it could be?
 

nordique

Member
Something I'd like everyone to keep in mind regarding Wii U specs, is what came from Iwata himself:


Q: Is Nintendo's HD development ability okay?

A: Regarding Zelda HD, Japanese developers said that it could not be replicated on other machines. It was made in a relatively short period, so Iwata feels that HD development will not be a problem.


I hope this adds to claims of what many have been saying about Zelda not being entirely possible on the current systems. Emphasis on "not entirely" and on the "plural" machineS indicating Japanese developers were likely not referring to the Wii, but more likely the Xbox 360 / PS3.

http://andriasang.com/comwnz/nintendo_shareholder_qa/

http://wiiublog.com/blog/2011/6/30/zelda-hd-could-not-be-replicated-on-other-consoles.html

http://blog.livedoor.jp/genji2game/archives/50637524.html




Sorry to contribute to the upswing of this emotional roller-coaster but I had to point it out :p


Wii U will bring in a certain level of graphics not possible on the 360 or PS3; this falls in like with what many other developers have said.

Do not brush off Arkam's comments, nor crucify him for sharing some information, but I do not think Arkam has the full picture. After all, Mike Capps of Epic had this to say:

Given Wii U’s equal or higher horsepower when compared to the 360 or PS3, it would stand to reason Epic would eventually develop for the platform. Especially with their Unreal Engine tech already running on the system.

“At the launch event at E3, some of the products that you saw running on Wii U were based on Unreal Engine technology. So that kind of gives you an idea of where we are in that space. You can certainly use our engine on that platform – it’s a natural fit from a technology perspective,” Capps added. “It opens up some doors that weren’t open before on current generation consoles because it is going to be a powerful box...."

http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2011/07/26/epic-games-very-interested-in-wii-u/

And no offence to Arkam - I hope he comes back and shares more info - but he did say he is not a software engineer. So he wouldn't understand how powerful the Wii U may be. Looking at numbers on a piece of paper that has the specs doesn't tell you squat.
 

royalan

Member
Great post.

Great post...even though I didn't understand a lot of it. XD

But I would like to say, in regards to the direction this thread has taken in the last few pages, that I don't think it's wrong to talk about the less-than-savory bits of rumor and speculation we get on Wii U. It seems that, sometimes, we have no problem spending pages upon pages fapping to the good news/rumors we get about Wii U; but whenever we get wind of something less-than-awesome we're expected to just shut up, stop getting "emotional", and ignore it...when in reality it's just as valid speculation as anything else. I mean, this is the Wii U Speculation thread, not the "Wii U Fan |OT| of don't post if you're not kissing Nintendo's boots".

I think the possible outcomes of Nintendo releasing a console that isn't more powerful than PS360 is a valid point of discussion, especially now that we have someone who's been vetted by mods claiming that might be the case in some respects.

The problem as I see it occurs when people allow their emotional attachments to take hold, and things start getting borderline disrespectful.

--Flaming Arkam should never have happened.
--People getting upset and calling other posters graphics whores because they express concern over Wii U being underpowered should probably not have happened, either.

Lets just sit back, enjoy the thread, and speculate over the news/rumors as we get them...good or bad. :(

As for me, I respect Arkam sharing with us. For better or worse, he did give us something fresh to talk about...

EDIT: I hope this doesn't come off as me backseat-modding. Really not my intention...
 
If Wii U is less powerful than Xbox 360, I will eat a hat.
Let alone the fact that Nintendo showed 360 footage at E3. I doubt they'd do that if they weren't confident that at the very least, the WiiU could reproduce those graphics.
Well, it's not like bullshotting never happens, or that they haven't ever shown CG examples of possible games.
 
My expectations at this very moment.

3+ghz 3-4 core OOO PPC CPU - as capable per thread or better than the 360's CPU. (blu convinced me)
GPU Equivalent to the Radeon HD 6570M also acting as memory controller for 1Gibibyte of GDDR5. I think that there is an outside possiblity of it being 768Mebibytes or 1280Mebibytes instead, but 1GiB is a nice round number.

These expectations will probably change late tonight or at GDC, and if not then, at E3 or at some other junction.
 
if GDC has anything WiiU tomorrow's event should have plenty to say about WiiU because Iwata has no keynote at GDC

so we can only hope they drop some tidbits at this Nintendo Direct.

NOA + NOE having the same events is very telling... only a 3DS redesign or WiiU news should pull all of them to hype levels unless they are just trolling Vita's launch :|
 

Hiltz

Member
Masahiro Sakurai said that he's almost finished with Kid Icarus Uprising (as it went gold last month) so he's had more time to think about Smash Brothers 4. He's currently been looking at the Dojo website and reviewing Brawl's development in terms of the sheer amount of content packed into the game. Sakurai writes, "However, what's the word... it's tremendous. How did we make this?"

http://andriasang.com/con01b/sakura_smash_bros_research/
 
May I join you on said places? I find it hard to believe the Wii U isn't even as powerful as the 360.
Yes, even with confirmation that Arkam works at a studio

Plenty of room up here buddy!

Oh, and it's nice to see nintendo generating the hype a bit with that Reggie pic. Hopefully it's worthwhile.

Is this just an announcement on the internet then?
 

Nibel

Member
Masahiro Sakurai said that he's almost finished with Kid Icarus Uprising (as it went gold last month( so he's had more time to think about Smash Brothers 4. He's been looking at the Dojo website and reminiscing on Brawl's development in terms of the sheer amount of content packed into the game. Sakurai writes, "However, what's the word... it's tremendous. How did we make this?"

I think that we could see a Smash announcement at E3 2013 - right now it's too soon. Heck, maybe we will see it at E3 2014 for the first time. I mean you don't need to be a developer to see that Smash games are huge and time-consuming projects.

And Iwata announced a Wii U AND a 3DS version which is madness in my opinion.
 
@bgassassin: I've also been pondering why Nintendo would not have put a 4770 in the dev kits. It runs cooler at 40nm and could surely be downclocked to what Nintendo are targeting. The bandwidth is also similar to the 4830, although the 4770 used 128 bit GDDR5. However, have you noticed that the 4770 only supports 512 MB of RAM? I don't know how easy these things are to mod, but could that be a major factor as to why Nintendo/AMD felt an RV770 was a better fit?
 
Plenty of room up here buddy!

Oh, and it's nice to see nintendo generating the hype a bit with that Reggie pic. Hopefully it's worthwhile.

Is this just an announcement on the internet then?

Sweet. Throw the rope down.

I still say its going to be a release date for MH3G, but you never know with NoA.
 
Plenty of room up here buddy!

Oh, and it's nice to see nintendo generating the hype a bit with that Reggie pic. Hopefully it's worthwhile.

Is this just an announcement on the internet then?

The fact, that they wrote "Regginator himself" and not "Mr. Fils-Aime" is quite telling. This MAY suggest, its news that may be interesting to the nerd community...
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Miyamoto said Wii U won't dramatically outperform PS360.

So if that's the case. What's all the rubbish in this thread where folks have said it's going to be 2 x PS360 etc...

Miyamoto's comments are entirely consistant with what Arkam had said relative to him having access to older dev kit.

I think the picture is getting pretty clear here. We are talking about a console that's going to be 1 - 1.3 x PS360 with more memory. Hopefully the GPU will have some tricks up it's sleeve like free AA, good quality upscaler etc..
 

effzee

Member
if GDC has anything WiiU tomorrow's event should have plenty to say about WiiU because Iwata has no keynote at GDC

so we can only hope they drop some tidbits at this Nintendo Direct.

NOA + NOE having the same events is very telling... only a 3DS redesign or WiiU news should pull all of them to hype levels unless they are just trolling Vita's launch :|

Wait what is this event tomorrow?
 
Sweet. Throw the rope down.

I still say its going to be a release date for MH3G, but you never know with NoA.

Rope? Pfft, we got red carpeted gold stairs here!

And yeah, that'd still be cool i guess. Honestly will be surprised if there's nothing at GDC, honestly.

When else would they reveal info between now and E3? I mean, realistically, unless it's their own event...
 
Wii U: The next total entertainment machine?

Over the past couple of years, video game consoles have become much more than just machines on which to play video games -- they've become entertainment consoles. In an entertainment world that's constantly getting more and more crowded with devices begging for its user's attention, it's almost necessary for a gaming console to be more than just a gaming console.

With the Wii U, the new video game console coming out from Nintendo later this year, the company believes that they're taking the home gaming console to the next level on the home entertainment scale.

"What the Wii U promises to do beyond offering unexpected gaming opportunities is it also creates opportunities due to the fact that its second screen is introduced into the living room, it removes the boundaries that exist between the player, the TV, the television, and the Internet," said Cindy Gordon, Nintendo's Vice President of Corporate Affairs.

Gordon believes that the way in which the Wii U interacts with all these different mediums will change the way in which people not only play video games, but also watch television and browse the web.

In a promotional video shown at 2011's E3 and again during the 2012 Consumer Electronics Show, Wii U users were cuing up a web video on the device's tablet-like controller and sending it onto the television by the swipe of his hand. Similarly, the video also showed a boy playing a game on his Wii U when his father wanted to turn on a baseball game. The boy simply paused his game on the television and resumed it on the device's controller.

Of course, the Wii U will be supporting other streaming video sources such as Netflix and Hulu Plus. The currently-available Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 already offer both services, though neither competing console have a controller with a built-in screen on which to view the streamed media.


source (with video): http://www.news10.net/news/article/179551/37/Wii-U-The-next-total-entertainment-machine
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
So if that's the case. What's all the rubbish in this thread where folks have said it's going to be 2 x PS360 etc...

Miyamoto's comments are entirely consistant with what Arkam had said relative to him having access to older dev kit.

I think the picture is getting pretty clear here. We are talking about a console that's going to be 1 - 1.3 x PS360 with more memory. Hopefully the GPU will have some tricks up it's sleeve like free AA, good quality upscaler etc..

Huh? 2x-5x is not what I would call dramatic.
 
Rope? Pfft, we got red carpeted gold stairs here!

And yeah, that'd still be cool i guess. Honestly will be surprised if there's nothing at GDC, honestly.

When else would they reveal info between now and E3? I mean, realistically, unless it's their own event...

Is the carpet velvet?

You do have a point, there really isn't any other spot appropriate to announce more details on the Wii U, besides GDC and E3. But we shall see what goes down tomorrow at 6am (EST)
 

radcliff

Member
Maybe when Arkam was talking about "scaling back Wii U projects" he was referring to the freezing issues in the earlier dev kits? When pushed hard, the system would freeze. This would certainly cause a developer to scale back a project to get it to work on the system. Of course, that issue should be addressed/rectified when the final dev kits are sent out. Just speculating.
 
R

Rösti

Unconfirmed Member
I think that we could see a Smash announcement at E3 2013 - right now it's too soon. Heck, maybe we will see it at E3 2014 for the first time. I mean you don't need to be a developer to see that Smash games are huge and time-consuming projects.

And Iwata announced a Wii U AND a 3DS version which is madness in my opinion.
Well, Super Smash Bros. Brawl was unveiled on the 10th of May 2006 in an after-hours press conference/developer event at E3. And it was released on the 31st of January 2008. That equals 1.73 years from reveal to launch. I don't think it's absurd to expect some kind of footage from Super Smash Bros. on Wii U at E3 in June.
 
And no offence to Arkam - I hope he comes back and shares more info - but he did say he is not a software engineer. So he wouldn't understand how powerful the Wii U may be. Looking at numbers on a piece of paper that has the specs doesn't tell you squat.

I am assuming his info (and likely everyone elses who has made a point to give there 2 cents) comes from someone actually working on the system and I would hope he isn't simply assuming specs based off what he saw on paper simply to make a point. There is a big difference between relaying what he has heard directly from a dev and what he saw on a spec sheet.
 
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