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[The_Darkest_Red]

This is easily one of my most anticipated games this year, and I haven't even played the original. It's looking fantastic.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

This looks so much better in motion than it did in the screenshots. Kudos to Firaxis for staying true to the original.

I put about 25+ hours into a game earlier this year. It's amazing how well the original still holds up. I'm looking forward to grabbing this on day one. Hopefully the box art is good enough to justify getting the retail version.

 

[maus]

I still think that his argument to ditch Time Units is bogus, by the way.

It's awful. "Playtesters thought time units were frustrating because they'd use 'em up and be like 'gah, I can't do stuff this sucks!', sooo, now every unit does two Things, every turn."

While it still looks like an exciting and varied strategy game, that decision single-handedly dilutes so much depth from x-com's combat.

Sure being one time unit shy of being able to fire at that sectoid through the window right in front of you sucks, but you always have another plan; unless you're a playtester without any cognitive processes occurring in the brain. Which is uhh, literally every playtester today apparently.

 

[Chairman Yang]

I always knew that, despite years and years of underinvestment in turn-based gaming by the industry, it had huge potential. I always felt scorn for people who called turn-based gaming "archaic" or "slow" or "boring". I thought that if a company just had faith and poured resources into turn-based strategy, it could evolve a genre that's been unevolved for so long. Game developers could find huge untapped design space in turn-based strategy rather than focusing on increasingly minor incremental design in genres like FPS.

After seeing this footage, I feel completely redeemed.

 

[Chairman Yang]

It's awful. "Playtesters thought time units were frustrating because they'd use 'em up and be like 'gah, I can't do stuff this sucks!', sooo, now every unit does two Things, every turn."

While it still looks like an exciting and varied strategy game, that decision single-handedly dilutes so much depth from x-com's combat.

Sure being one time unit shy of being able to fire at that sectoid through the window right in front of you sucks, but you always have another plan; unless you're a playtester without any cognitive processes occurring in the brain. Which is uhh, literally every playtester today apparently.

Yes, removing time units sacrifices some depth. Jake Solomon's point with "head space" is that the slight added depth of TUs wasn't worth the big increase in mental bookkeeping and tedium.

With TUs gone, the player can now usefully manage extra depth in other areas. The cover system, the character development/perk system, the plethora of new abilities and tactics we haven't seen yet--the depth these things add will more than compensate for TUs, and none of them will entail the boring hassle that TUs turned out to generate.

 

[Always-honest]

It was confirmed for 360, PS3 & PC when it was first announced. I'm still hoping for a Wii U version.

oh.. that would be a great fit... actually

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I LOVE how they've approached base building. Really unique interface.

 

[Sinatar]

Looked great except for the fact that the gas station didn't go up like a miniature nuke when they blew it up.

 

[gofreak]

I LOVE how they've approached base building. Really unique interface.

Yeah, I loved how that looked.

 

[maus]

Yes, removing time units sacrifices some depth. Jake Solomon's point with "head space" is that the slight added depth of TUs wasn't worth the big increase in mental bookkeeping and tedium.

With TUs gone, the player can now usefully manage extra depth in other areas. The cover system, the character development/perk system, the plethora of new abilities and tactics we haven't seen yet--the depth these things add will more than compensate for TUs, and none of them will entail the boring hassle that TUs turned out to generate.

What you refer to as mental bookkeeping and tedium a lot of people find to be a satisfying cognitive process that becomes second nature over time. The concept of reward through patience has slowly been purged from nearly every aspect of society lately.

 

[Minsc]

Finally! Looks great to see the stills we've seen many times played out in motion. Base looks pretty slick too, I like the zooming in and out of the rooms and then in to the mission control then the geoscape screen.

 

[elcranky]

It's awful. "Playtesters thought time units were frustrating because they'd use 'em up and be like 'gah, I can't do stuff this sucks!', sooo, now every unit does two Things, every turn."

While it still looks like an exciting and varied strategy game, that decision single-handedly dilutes so much depth from x-com's combat.

Sure being one time unit shy of being able to fire at that sectoid through the window right in front of you sucks, but you always have another plan; unless you're a playtester without any cognitive processes occurring in the brain. Which is uhh, literally every playtester today apparently.

This is just nonsense. I consider XCOM to be the greatest game of all time. That said, removing the TU for a level-based skill progression of Move-action-skill adds depth and interest will removing the tedium that was TU. TU didn't add anything but useless micromanagement to the original. Optimizing and exploiting the system didn't require any thought, strategy, or ingenuity. It only forced rote accounting into the gameplay.

As for unit limits, I like the idea of smaller squads. 4 may be a little low, but that is preferable to 14 in turn-based game with movement. I prefer this because it increases fun per unit time and decrease unnecessary micromanagement. I just don't have the time anymore to spending 10 minutes setting up a battle.

So, I conider both of the big changes highly beneficial for fun/time.

 

[Chairman Yang]

What you refer to as mental bookkeeping and tedium a lot of people find to be a satisfying cognitive process that becomes second nature over time. The concept of reward through patience has slowly been purged from nearly every aspect of society lately.

Strategy shouldn't be about "patience", in my opinion. Game elements that add lots of time and bookkeeping SHOULD be purged in favour of ones that reward creative thinking, adaptability, puzzle-solving, and other more engaging stuff.

Also, the entire MMORPG genre is about reward through patience, and it sucks because of it.

 

[Castor Krieg]

I hope this releases as close to Christmas as possible. My father played over 200 hours of X-Com 2, and I would love to buy him CE of this game.

Strategy shouldn't be about "patience", in my opinion. Game elements that add lots of time and bookkeeping SHOULD be purged in favour of ones that reward creative thinking, adaptability, puzzle-solving, and other more engaging stuff.

Yet some people, especially older gamers, enjoy this type of games.

 

[Alexios]

Looks great and should be fun but I still get the feeling you'll probably complete the game with the same four (to six or whatever the crappy limit is) people unless you mess up badly... Please be fully modable please be fully modable please be fully modable.

 

[Ricker]

So they have 2 XCOM games going?? they have the generic FPS one going(looks like fun also)but I didn't know about this one...looks awesome,finally a SRPG on the current HD consoles,can't wait.

 

[subversus]

What you refer to as mental bookkeeping and tedium a lot of people find to be a satisfying cognitive process that becomes second nature over time. The concept of reward through patience has slowly been purged from nearly every aspect of society lately.

yes, you are spot on about SOCIETAL changes. It's not in games only, it happened everywhere. Internet decreased attention spans, mobile phones and email sped up life. Deal with these changes, the world won't go back unless a sun flare destroys all electronic devices on Earth.

 

[Boogalogist]

Oh WOW!!! This looks sooooooo good!! I had the previous thread on subscribed and was not happy to see the inactivity there. Then BOOM!! All of a sudden, this footage comes out!!

Glam CAM! Sexy camera angles! Ant farm base building! HOLY SHIT!!

I can't wait!!!

Justtakemymoney.gif!!!!!

 

[theDeeDubs]

Looks great. I wasn't a big fan of the original but after hearing the designers talk about it on a recent podcast, it seemed like they changed/improved some of my gripes about it. Looks great to see it in motion finally. LOVE the glam cam addition.

It was a pretty cool interview (game informer podcast maybe?). They said they originally had a lot more units but felt less units would make it feel more tactical and easier to balance. It would also make you grow more attached to your team. One thing I thought was neat was if one of your team members has a couple of near death experiences, they start to get shaky and unreliable in future battles.

 

[epmode]

Looks great and should be fun but I still get the feeling you'll probably complete the game with the same four (to six or whatever the crappy limit is) people unless you mess up badly... Please be fully modable please be fully modable please be fully modable.

RPS has made vague references to XCOM mod support in their comments sections over the past week. I'd be surprised if we don't get official word about basic mod support in the next few days.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Yet some people, especially older gamers, enjoy this type of games.

And more power to those people. They have a large selection of turn-based games that embrace that style.

On the other hand, people who would enjoy a new type of turn-based strategy that eschews tedium haven't had many choices. Until now.

 

[Emitan]

yes, you are spot on about SOCIETAL changes. It's not in games only, it happened everywhere. Internet decreased attention spans, mobile phones and email sped up life. Deal with these changes, the world won't go back unless a sun flare destroys all electronic devices on Earth.

Or people could just make games in the style of old games.

 

[subversus]

RPS has made vague references to XCOM mod support in their comments sections over the past week. I'd be surprised if we don't get official word about basic mod support in the next few days.

but he already said in the interview that it will be moddable and he looks forward to play what hardcore people put out there.

 

[Corto]

It feels so damn slick and polished. I'll bet the UI will be all kinds of awesome to use. Love the base layout too.

 

[subversus]

Or people could just make games in the style of old games.

hm, yes. but what this have to do with my post? I wasn't talking about this game or any other game in particular. There is a niche for everything.

 

[PantherAttacks]

I still think that his argument to ditch Time Units is bogus, by the way.

Me too. "Freeing up that headspace" and making it simplified. Urgh, no thanks.

 

[spanks]

This game makes me excite

 

[Mikeside]

People who aren't happy with how this gme is looking compared to the original should probably check out the indie game Xenonauts, which is another attempt to remake the XCOM we all know and love.

I, for one will be playing the shit out of both games.

Worst thing about this game is how FAAAR away it is

 

[Orgun]

Having only just played X-com UFO Defence for the first time at the end of 2011 all I can say is - I don't even have to watch the videos to know that i'll get it Day 1. Firaxis + X-com = take my money.

 

[robin2]

Yeah, TUs are indeed hugely complicated mathematical calculations.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Me too. "Freeing up that headspace" and making it simplified. Urgh, no thanks.

That isn't really his argument though, is it? It sounds more like, "freeing up that headspace to allocate it to something more interesting." In an ideal world the amount of intellectual thought the game will require will be even with the original but the amount of interesting mechanics and variables at play will be increased.

 

[Himself]

Color. I like it.

 

[epmode]

but he already said in the interview that it will be moddable and he looks forward to play what hardcore people put out there.

Is that in the video? I don't remember that in the earlier preview and I won't be able to watch the video until later today.

ANYWAY, that's great news. First mod: Squad limit removal or TU conversion?

Yeah, TUs are indeed hugely complicated mathematical calculations.

The thing about TUs is that they're nebulous. It was hard to be certain that you'd ever have enough time to do X in a single turn. Movement may have been a constant value but most everything else cost a different amount of TUs based on the selected solder.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Yeah, TUs are indeed hugely complicated mathematical calculations.

The problem is that they're NOT complicated. They just bog down the entire game without adding depth to justify it. You have to deal with them for every single move of the game, but they only add genuine strategy in like 10% of those moves.

I'm surprised people are defending TUs so much in this thread. I mean, criticism of the squad limit thing I can understand, but I really don't see the appeal of TUs.

 

[Jintor]

What you refer to as mental bookkeeping and tedium a lot of people find to be a satisfying cognitive process that becomes second nature over time. The concept of reward through patience has slowly been purged from nearly every aspect of society lately.

I have around 70 or 80 hours logged of UFO Unknown logged on Steam and who knows how many more on Dosbox.

It gets pretty tedious, especially given the original's not-so-helpful UI

 

[Death Dealer]

Looking good !

 

[Corto]

Yeah, TUs are indeed hugely complicated mathematical calculations.

You have to take account that there are actions that spend time units with fixed cost depending on the action, others that spend TUs in variable percentages depending of the action, fatal wounds to the legs decrease your soldiers TUs, and then you add the encumbrance factor that decreases your soldier TUs if their total weight with equipment is over their strength stat according to the formula:

Encumbrance = Strength / Carried Weight*


If Encumbrance >= 1 then

Available TUs = Base TUs

Else

Available TUs = INT(Encumbrance x Base TUs)

Maybe there was a UI solution to put this information readily available to the player at his discretion but I can understand their reasoning that it would be difficult and with the potential to clutter the design.

 

[maus]

Strategy shouldn't be about "patience", in my opinion. Game elements that add lots of time and bookkeeping SHOULD be purged in favour of ones that reward creative thinking, adaptability, puzzle-solving, and other more engaging stuff.

Also, the entire MMORPG genre is about reward through patience, and it sucks because of it.

I'm glad you guys are hopeful but literally hearing the words "playtesters were frustrated/overwhelmed" tells me that compromises were made for the sake of reducing mental taxation. Not that it isn't possible for a game to be bogged down by useless management, but even the way this guy sounded in the RPS interview sounded as if the game's vision was diverted due to audience marketability.

This is just nonsense. I chttp://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=35772715onsider XCOM to be the greatest game of all time. That said, removing the TU for a level-based skill progression of Move-action-skill adds depth and interest will removing the tedium that was TU. TU didn't add anything but useless micromanagement to the original. Optimizing and exploiting the system didn't require any thought, strategy, or ingenuity. It only forced rote accounting into the gameplay.

As for unit limits, I like the idea of smaller squads. 4 may be a little low, but that is preferable to 14 in turn-based game with movement. I prefer this because it increases fun per unit time and decrease unnecessary micromanagement. I just don't have the time anymore to spending 10 minutes setting up a battle.

So, I conider both of the big changes highly beneficial for fun/time.

These are thoughtful words, though I think you're overstating the frivolity of what was involved in x-com's combat. I'm not really a veteran of the original, but x-com's combat is hardly a major investment and is quite intuitive once you get the flow of the game. Now I'm sure this new game will "flow" much better since your 4 super-abled soldiers are going to burst into battle with a myriad of skills to dispel any situation, but it seems to squelch that uncertainty and vulnerability that gave x-com its delectable flavor.

It's hard not to sound like I'm just ruminating about the past ha. Your optimism does rub off on me a bit and I'm still excited to play this game.

 

[Minsc]

Looks great and should be fun but I still get the feeling you'll probably complete the game with the same four (to six or whatever the crappy limit is) people unless you mess up badly... Please be fully modable please be fully modable please be fully modable.

Well, they do have the memorial wall for fallen units, and they said injured units will be MIA for a few missions while being treated, and also that units which are hit by critical wounds from enemies will have their morale/will permanently lowered, lowering their effectiveness in the long term, see here:

And a fun game play thing is we have critical wounding in the game, so when somebody takes a critical wound, just like in the original, they’re bleeding out and you’ve only got a couple of turns to get to them with a Medkit and stabilize them. But those soldiers who are critically wounded, if you stabilize them, well then good for you, you’ve saved one of your soldiers, but the problem of course is that they suffer a permanent Will penalty from that point on, and so now they become a little shakier. Like God forbid you suffer two critical wounds, you’re going to be jumping at every sound. I mean depending upon what their starting will was, but then you get these guys who are a little shaky and they’re going to panic at the first sign of things going south and they’re going to start chucking grenades everywhere and freaking out and firing off their gun wildly…

So it seems unlikely you will be able to ride your units through to the end, unless you're very careful. And no save/load abuse on the Ironman mode!

Also from the interview about PC vs console differences (besides mods):

So, just an in depth an experience on console as on PC?
Jake Solomon: Yes, absolutely. We have not changed the feature set at all. There are some things with the PC interface we're not doing with the console, just because we have a little more freedom in terms of the depth of zoom and the ability to show different things tactically on PC. Certainly the interface will be different between the two. So we are doing some things on PC.
But in terms of core game elements and the way you interact, you can do everything on console you can do on PC.

So how is the camera perspective different on PC?
Jake Solomon: It's more you have more zoom. You have a longer zoom. So you can get out even further. On the console you can pull the left trigger to go out. But on PC, you could potentially play at a very high zoom level.

So the big difference besides UI layout / input interface is just the PC version lets you zoom out to very high zoom levels, which sounds great, I never enjoyed hitting those invisible ceilings in 3D topdown games with a zoomable viewpoint.

 

[michaelius]

I hope this sells well enough to stop this belief that modern gamer needs to have only real time games

 

[Boogalogist]

Still getting the PC version....just holding out for the modding capabilities!

 

[Mashing]

OMG! So sexy. The base building looks fucking awesome.

 

[robin2]

They just bog down the entire game without adding depth to justify it.

UFO and Jagged Alliance 2, are two of the best best turn based tactical games ever, and they use TUs/Action Points: how can they be so good if that system is so deleterious as you make it sound? Maybe it just isn't, rather it is the opposite: that system actually adds to this kind of game.

 

[Mashing]

A simple elegant solution is to put in an in game indicator to show how far you can move with your selected shot (snap shot, auto shot, etc...) based on your encumbrance and terrain type you are moving across.

 

[epmode]

I look forward to rehashing the same exact TU debate in every XCOM thread until release.

Both sides have merit and I'm willing to go in with an open mind. The squad limit is a much bigger concern.

 

[Mindlog]

You trying to tell me that the flat ant-farm perspective of the base is an actual fully-formed 3-D space? What kind of wizardry is this? That's impossible.

/wink and nod

I had seen the grapple used before, but for some reason I was still locked in classic X-Com animation imagery. The fluidity and camera-work in this footage put a smile on my face.

Here's hoping for 15 years of GAF XCOM Ironman Challenges.

 

[Chairman Yang]

I'm glad you guys are hopeful but literally hearing the words "playtesters were frustrated/overwhelmed" tells me that compromises were made for the sake of reducing mental taxation. Not that it isn't possible for a game to be bogged down by useless management, but even the way this guy sounded in the RPS interview sounded as if the game's vision was diverted due to audience marketability.

I'll say this--if Firaxis was really worried about "audience marketability" (or at least what a lot of dumb industry execs think is marketable), this game wouldn't have been made at all. We wouldn't been stuck solely with the FPS.

 

[Emitan]

I'll say this--if Firaxis was really worried about "audience marketability" (or at least what a lot of dumb industry execs think is marketable), this game wouldn't have been made at all. We wouldn't been stuck solely with the FPS.

Well considering the FPS was cancelled...

 

[Orgun]

Hope the PC version has pad support.

 

[CaptainRizla]

Can't wait. One of my favourite games back in the day.