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[HurricaneJesus]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stop buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

 

[hamchan]

The main problem with you is that you think you are "the ultimate majority of the consumers", when, mixing some neogaf posters, some bioware forums posters, random internet guys, you got, what, 3% of the game's players? And yet you think the developer should change the game's ending based on what you think. smh (to be clear, I don't think changing it was going to be ok even if you represented 99% of the gamers)

3% sounds like a decent sample size in a multimillion selling game. Granted, it's not a random sample so that throws out most of the legitimacy. On the other hand, you also can't turn around and say that we're the minority.

Though the hardcore fans is who Bioware will sell the most DLC to, so they'd be wise to listen at least.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Again, I ask you: raising awareness of what? For who?

Because when you say things like that, it just makes me think you're a patronizing jerk.

For the consumers who have supported this franchise with their hard earned money, who believed all the marketing spiel about how the end incorporated the choices you've made throughout the series.

Most of that stuff isn't your typical "our game is awesome!" marketing speak. It's specific, targeted, and cynical.

 

[Replicant]

Damn, this is the worst backlash I've ever seen to a game's ending.

Bioware has fucked up majorly and the longer they drag this out, the worse the result would be for everyone especially them and the media who support them. They can call the fans whatever they want but at the end of the day, the fans don't have reputation to protect in the first place. They don't give a shit that their names are being dragged through the mud.

On the other hand, Bioware and the gaming media are the ones who stand to lose support from fans and readers for this debacle. And next time either one slips up and makes just another tiny mistake, rest assured that their names will be dragged through the mud for good.

 

[traveler]

For the most part, people are fine with the stories in the rest of the games and even the rest of ME3. It's just the ME3 ending, really.

Which is why I find this entire outcry so hilarious. I don't like the ending of the third game, but it's decent by game story standards and not out of line with the quality of the rest of the games stories. (except for the majority of 3- which was far and away the best the story of the series has been, making this protest seem even more wrongheaded in its focus.)

The first games' story structure is terrible and its ending begins with, need I remind anyone, a gigantic info dump from two static conversations. Never mind trying to leverage the unique strengths of the medium as a storytelling asset, at least bring your presentation up to the shitty Hollywood blockbuster level much of gaming seems to childishly aspire to and remember you're in a visual medium. Fans who love such a poorly told narrative but find the thirds ending repulsive seem delusional to me.

Most importantly, I think all this fuss detracts from the narrative we should be saying as gamers anyway. The bulk of the discussion about a game should not be about its story, (until the medium matures substantially at least) barring the rare exception, and if you insist on discussing the weakest element of the medium, you should at least discuss it in the context of its entirety rather than focusing on what is literally a few minutes of video. Such a protest communicates misguided priorities. Finally, even though I'm no big fan of the ending myself, the idea of paying a creator to undo their creation and pander (I realize the irony given the company in question) is such a terrible principle that I could not support it even if I thoroughly despised the ending.

(I will note that I have no problems with criticism in general; I just feel the ME3 discussion is way off course, in its priorities and consideration of the rest of the series.)

 

[jrDev]

Man, I don't want to sound too mean, but people really do take video games too seriously :-/

Just gonna start playing mass effect 2 and I really wont get this raged when I get to the ending of mass effect 3 no matter what happens...

Only important thing that came out of this were the donations...

 

[d0c_zaius]

That's just 4000 people who decided to donate, not everyone who hates the ending. I didn't donate and I despise how they handled the ending, and how they lied about how the ending would be in interviews before the game came out.

and I think the ending was dumb, but they were all dumb. I know what I am getting into before buying a game. So we offset each other.

Based on that, nothing should be changed and no majority can claim to represent the other.

 

[AwakenedCloud]

Has anything like this been done for a movie or book, this just seems strange to me. Donating to charity is great, but it just seems like a strange incentive to do so.

It just reminds me of those who ritually donate things simply to get a tax write off at the end of the year.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

If Bioware decide to change the ending to appease the fans, they might as well throw out any shred of credibility they had.

You make a 'Director's Cut' of a film to show what you originally had in mind for your vision/show a different interpretation.

Making a change to please your fans is shameless pandering, and an acknowledgement of your own failure as storytellers.

You're right man.

Also, that Arthur Conan Doyle guy too, right? What a hack that guy was?

 

[Takamura-San]

I want them to change the ending because it doesn't make any sense.

The same way that they had to address the last book from the series because it basically disregarded anything that was established before.

That's the ending of ME3, 10 minutes that undid, contradicted, dismissed over 100 hours of lore and universe.

If you don't think that doesn't deserve critique under the guise of artistic freedom, then watch any M, Night movie, marvel at the ridiculous twist at the end, feel bad about loosing 2 hours of your life and multiply that for 50. Then tell me how to feel.

 

[Uno Venova]

Damn, this is the worst backlash I've ever seen to a game's ending. Currently playing through ME3 now and I've already set my expectations super low after reading about how terrible it is.

The funny thing is it will probably still disappoint you. I was in the same position low expectations but still couldn't believe what the fuck happened.

 

[heliosRAzi]

4000 isn't representative of anything in a 3 million world (that's what I heard the first shipment was, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure my point still stands.)

I'm not a statician, but from what I understand is that given your number (3 million) and a confidence level of 99% and a confidence interval (margin of error) of 5, you would need a sample size of 665. But, I am not a statician.

 

[Gestahl]

http://www.g4tv.com/videos/48225/Face-Time-With-Todd-Howard/

I think there were some issues with the ending of Fallout 3. We really though wow, we messed that one up. When we went to DLC, it was like, well ok let's try to fix this, we can fix this. Well should we? We should stand our ground, that was the ending! But it was like, look, we messed this up, let's fix this.

Artistic integrittyyyyyyyyy

 

[Derrick01]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stopped buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

Most of us who hate the ending really like the overall game. Hell in a weird way I kind of wish the game sucked that way the ending wouldn't have bothered me.

 

[Cheech]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It means what I think it means. People think because they paid $60 that they are owed an ending they like? That is the very meaning of "entitled".

I liked ME3's ending. I'm not alone. What the entitled are saying is my taste is shit, theirs is great, and to prove it they're going to guilt Bioware into changing the ending. And even better, they're going to give to charity to try to "prove" that they're not acting entitled.

The whole thing is one of the most bizarre things I can remember in my 30 years of playing games. The Giant Bomb guys actually nailed it this week; it's great that we've gotten to a point where people are this wrapped up in the story of a game. It shows just how far we've come over the years to legitimizing gaming as an art form. However, this kind of thing is extremely counter productive to this cause, because the entitled are telling the rest of the world that gaming is NOT art and subject to revision at the whim of the consumer.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Look at me, ma, I hate the ending and yet I'm defending it?

I'm sure Bethesda loved the entitled babies and the possibilities that changing the ending of Fallout 3 brought (more DLC and $$$).

But that was not a changed ending. The DLC did not change anything about the ending. It didn't modify the main game. It just added post-campaign missions. Yeah, Todd Howard said it was a new ending, but the fact is that it did not modify your existing base campaign. That's the difference, that's the key. That's the rub.

Now, will the DLC be an actual changed ending? I hope not, but that is what it sounds like.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

People feel like they are owed a new ending? No, I think we're using the right word.

Including Felicia Day and Jessica Chobot in your games is exactly the same thing, and I didn't see you protesting that.

There are are degrees here. Pandering to fans and including 1000 in-jokes simply to sell copies is a bit less artistically compromising that changing the ending to your game because of fan backlash. Is it stupid? Yes. But the severity is what matters here.

However, this kind of thing is extremely counter productive to this cause, because the entitled are telling the rest of the world that gaming is NOT art and subject to revision at the whim of the consumer.

I want you to bear me children.

Unless you're a guy.

That's gross.

 

[erpg]

“An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.”

O. A. Battista

 

[SteveWinwood]

You're right man.

Also, that Arthur Conan Doyle guy too, right? What a hack that guy was?

Sherlock should have stayed dead dammit!

 

[hamchan]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stop buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

I think Bioware should thank their lucky stars that fans are acting like this, raising money for charity, requesting ending DLC, instead of just being rational and saying "Fuck Bioware, I'm not buying their games".

 

[Derrick01]

It means what I think it means. People think because they paid $60 that they are guaranteed an ending they like? That is the very meaning of "entitled".

I liked ME3's ending. I'm not alone. What the entitled are saying is my taste is shit, theirs is great, and to prove it they're going to guilt Bioware into changing the ending. And even better, they're going to give to charity to try to "prove" that they're not acting entitled.

The whole thing is one of the most bizarre things I can remember in my 30 years of playing games. The Giant Bomb guys actually nailed it this week; it's great that we've gotten to a point where people are this wrapped up in the story of a game. It shows just how far we've come over the years to legitimizing gaming as an art form. However, this kind of thing is extremely counter productive to this cause, because the entitled are telling the rest of the world that gaming is NOT art and subject to revision at the whim of the consumer.

I don't recall anyone calling your taste shit in the spoiler thread. Most of us are pretty curious though when someone says the ending was good because we've already broken it down and know just how bad the writing is and how lazy they handled it.

 

[MechaX]

Why are we assuming that art is above alteration?

Hell, a very valid reason behind such an alteration could be "pandering to the whims of the fanbase" just as equally as "evaluating the criticisms brought up by the fanbase." Hell, Bethesda even managed to color things in the description of the latter when changing their artistic vision.

 

[thetechkid]

It means what I think it means. People think because they paid $60 that they are guaranteed an ending they like? That is the very meaning of "entitled".

Wait so wanting to like a product you bought makes you an entitled baby? That is stupid.

 

[Speevy]

Most of us who hate the ending really like the overall game. .

99% of games throughout history end with some variation of "Thank you for playing!" or just a cutscene of some group of characters cheering.

If a game is so inseparable from its story, and the ending sucks, it can't be called a good overall game.

If a game can be separated from its story, then it's a good game and the ending doesn't matter.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I think Bioware should thank their lucky stars that fans are acting like this, raising money for charity, requesting ending DLC, instead of just being rational and saying "Fuck Bioware, I'm not buying their games".

Yeah, if they did what would actually change this shit from happening, bioware probably wouldn't be around too much longer.

 

[d0c_zaius]

Wait so wanting to like a product you bought makes you an entitled baby? That is stupid.

no but demanding you have some stake in the creative process because it isnt what you wanted is.

oh and dont forget to claim to represent everyone.

 

[Shepard]

You do realize when they do exit polling, for elections and such, that don't poll every single voter? Surely if people loved the ending they would be on the internet posting about how great it is (and there are some people). However when you look at fan reaction it has been overwhelmingly negative.

For the sake of argument, let us assume that the Charity is not a representative sample.

This isn't so much of a problem of "just a bunch of forum posters" being up in arms about things. You go to any other major community outside of GAF and Bioware's forums like IGN, Gamespot/GameFAQs, Something Awful, various individual and smaller forums, etc, and even with some degree of overlap, you have a fair amount of people being concerned about things. Even for a small frame of reference, look at GFaqs, in which at least 30k people do agree that there is something wrong with the ending as is. And even going of anecdotal accounts like facebook and what-not, and now areas like Forbes giving some insight, saying that it is only like 1% of the people who bought the game is pretty disingenuous at best.

Psychological or academic studies do not become less valid simply because they could not gauge the entire population in question. Instead, there is enough support that there is a very good chance that there is a somewhat consistent sentiment and concern.

True, I can concede on the notion that not everyone wants it changed. But I think the most pressing scenario here is that we could possibly have a significant number of people who just found it problematic in general. If Retake ME3 is the only outlet to really show this notion, despite how less-extreme arguments may also be accompanying the concern, I'll take it.

You can tell me about thousands of "internet fans" "raging" about the ending and, without discounting the fact that the same user can have an account in all of the services you cited, it's still the "great" minority of those who bought the game.

3% sounds like a decent sample size in a multimillion selling game. Granted, it's not a random sample so that throws out most of the legitimacy. On the other hand, you also can't turn around and say that we're the minority.

Though the hardcore fans is who Bioware will sell the most DLC to, so they'd be wise to listen at least.

Both the notion that 3% is a decent chunk to make such a drastic change and that the "hardcore" fans are the ones who will give them money are wrong. Just think for a moment: if the hardcore die hard internet fans are really that representative, why did Bioware changed the focus of the games to a more action-oriented experience besides of all internet discontentment about it?

I'm not a statician, but from what I understand is that given your number (3 million) and a confidence level of 99% and a confidence interval (margin of error) of 5, you would need a sample size of 665. But, I am not a statician.

Sorry, I'll redo my calculations and send feedback in a minute.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

But that was not a changed ending. The DLC did not change anything about the ending. It just added post-campaign missions.

Uh, yes it did.

Spoiler

Shutting down Project Purity was no longer lethal for you or Sarah Lyons, and you could send in radiation-immune companions to do it for you, which was not possible in the original ending.

 

[RDreamer]

The first games' story structure is terrible and its ending begins with, need I remind anyone, a gigantic info dump from two static conversations. Never mind trying to leverage the unique strengths of the medium as a storytelling asset, at least bring your presentation up to the shitty Hollywood blockbuster level much of gaming seems to childishly aspire to and remember you're in a visual medium. Fans who love such a poorly told narrative but find the thirds ending repulsive seem delusional to me.

Similar to this, the thing I find slightly baffling is the people saying the ending would be fine with a Dragon Age: Origins style thing of text that just told what happened to everyone/everything. Now, I realize there's a lot of problems with the ending of ME3 as it is now, but I don't want that. That was a really big bummer.

 

[erpg]

As for artistic integrity, sorry. You lose that the second you let marketing and focus testing in on a concept. Mass Effect is a consumer product.

Not every example of a medium is art.

 

[HK-47]

99% of games throughout history end with some variation of "Thank you for playing!" or just a cutscene of some group of characters cheering.

If a game is so inseparable from its story, and the ending sucks, it can't be called a good overall game.

If a game can be separated from its story, then it's a good game and the ending doesn't matter.

Paragon and Renegade are your only options

 

[Takamura-San]

It means what I think it means. People think because they paid $60 that they are owed an ending they like? That is the very meaning of "entitled".

I liked ME3's ending. I'm not alone. What the entitled are saying is my taste is shit, theirs is great, and to prove it they're going to guilt Bioware into changing the ending. And even better, they're going to give to charity to try to "prove" that they're not acting entitled.

The whole thing is one of the most bizarre things I can remember in my 30 years of playing games. The Giant Bomb guys actually nailed it this week; it's great that we've gotten to a point where people are this wrapped up in the story of a game. It shows just how far we've come over the years to legitimizing gaming as an art form. However, this kind of thing is extremely counter productive to this cause, because the entitled are telling the rest of the world that gaming is NOT art and subject to revision at the whim of the consumer.

The funny thing is that art is usually backed by the unified vision of a few, even more so the vision of one person.

From the information that is been leaked out there, that was not the case with ME3.

You can go pander to the drum of artistic vision, when a product is created and catered to the masses. That's not artistic, it is a product.

I don't want art of ME3, what I want is a conclusion that makes sense with the lore that was presented.

 

[Zen]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stop buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

That doesn't let them know how you feel.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stop buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

can't a man hold on to his illusions?

Spoiler

nope

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Similar to this, the thing I find slightly baffling is the people saying the ending would be fine with a Dragon Age: Origins style thing of text that just told what happened to everyone/everything. Now, I realize there's a lot of problems with the ending of ME3 as it is now, but I don't want that. That was a really big bummer.

People want closure. DA:O or Fallout styled slid shows are not the ideal way to end things by any stretch of the imagination, but it's preferable what they ended up with.

 

[Derrick01]

99% of games throughout history end with some variation of "Thank you for playing!" or just a cutscene of some group of characters cheering.

If a game is so inseparable from its story, and the ending sucks, it can't be called a good overall game.

If a game can be separated from its story, then it's a good game and the ending doesn't matter.

When did that black and white rule get put into place? I mean I know I've said that the ending was so bad that it makes me not want to play the series anymore due to a "what's the point" feeling, but that doesn't mean I think it was a shit game. I wouldn't be hoping for a change to the ending if most of the game sucked.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Uh, yes it did.

Spoiler

Shutting down Project Purity was no longer lethal for you or Sarah Lyons, and you could send in radiation-immune companions to do it for you, which was not possible in the original ending.

That's just sad.

As for artistic integrity, sorry. You lose that the second you let marketing and focus testing in on a concept. Mass Effect is a consumer product.

Did you just imply that putting your product out into the world invalidates it as art?

 

[Gestahl]

That's just sad.

Yeah, it was a really shitty ending, good thing they fixed it

 

[jediyoshi]

It means what I think it means. People think because they paid $60 that they are owed an ending they like? That is the very meaning of "entitled".

That's like saying people are entitled for not wanting to have their food spat into at a restaurant.

 

[GillianSeed79]

For the consumers who have supported this franchise with their hard earned money, who believed all the marketing spiel about how the end incorporated the choices you've made throughout the series.

Most of that stuff isn't your typical "our game is awesome!" marketing speak. It's specific, targeted, and cynical.

That's fine and it's a valid argument I guess, but weren't you a little at all skeptical about the impact of choice carrying over considering ME2? For me, it felt like the only impact my choices in ME1 had in ME2 was the tone of the facebook-like updates Shepherd got when they set up an email account on the Normandy for him. I'm not actually surprised the ending is shit considering ME2's last boss fight. If we are going to demand new endings lets start with that followed by DAII's entire third act.

 

[Derrick01]

That's just sad.

The change made sense. Why was the radiation immune companion that was with me refusing to go in and wanting me to go in, knowing that I would die? It literally made zero sense.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

That's just sad.

Well it was pretty dumb in the original release.

Spoiler

A companion who had previously gone into irradiated areas for you would suddenly refuse to go into the chamber because it was YOUR DESTINY or some bullshit. And it was all to set up their wimpy Christ analogy.

Anyway Fallout 3 had bad writing so it doesn't really matter. Todd Howard admitted it was a mistake to end the game that way.

 

[DTKT]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stopped buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

The 29 hours before the ending are great. A few of those moments are easily in my Top 10 best vidja games lists. The last 10 minutes are easily one of the most baffling moment I've ever experienced playing games.

 

[inky]

There are are degrees here. Pandering to fans and including 1000 in-jokes simply to sell copies is a bit less artistically compromising that changing the ending to your game because of fan backlash. Is it stupid? Yes. But the severity is what matters here.

Nah, I don't think there are. In fact revising/expanding the ending (which seems to be what they are doing, not changing it) is to me a bit less artistically compromising than some of the stuff they have pulled, including pulling a whole lore important character to sell it to you at launch. That to me is a lot more severe and should especially be to the idiots shouting "but games will stop being art because of this!" (not your case, I know).

You like being a contrarian that's all, and that's fine I didn't want them to change the ending either, for completely different reasons, but now the spectacle is too big to resist and I am just kind of wishing they fuck it up even more.

 

[Vamphuntr]

I still think it's funny that people are throwing the entitled insult around. It's basically the new insult for 2012.

I don't see how asking improvement on a series you spent 150-180$ can be considered entitlement especially when you take into account it's from a company that retcon their story often and even do lot of pandering to fans. Like I already said I don't buy the artistic integrity argument either from Bioware, as they don't really care about it much.

It's coming from a company that :

-Retcon one of the possible ending of DAO so you could import a save in its expansion
-Retcon one of the possible fate of Leliana so she would show up in DA2
-Cut an important party member storywise from ME3 and sold it as a 10$ DLC
-Made all characters in DAII bisexual and retconned Anders
-Added Felicia Day in a DAII expansion pack
-Adeed Jessica Chobot as a love interest in ME3
-Spread ME3 DLC across a bunch of merchandise
-Ends the game with a screen how you are a legend and urges you to buy more DLC to add more to it

TV Shows fans often talk about what they like to see on the show and writers often take it into account. Movies are focus tested to be sure everything is good and the endings are often modified because of this. Games are also patched according to fans feedback. Was the Uncharted 3 complaints against the aiming also entitlement?

Here it seems Bioware simply screwed up and didn't focus test the game enough or simply didn't listen to the feedback from the testers. It's also implied from the Last Hours of ME3 app that the ending was put together quickly and underwent a lot of changes just before the launch.

If asking for some closure is entitlement then I guess asking for a sequel for a game you like is also entitlement. Asking for specifics gameplay mechanics or update is also entitlement as in both you simply "whine and ask the devs to change their vision".

The best part of this whole meltdown is seeing all those wannabe journalists get outraged at this and acting like it's the end of the world even if some of those like the IGN guy had previously endorsed making changes to game based on fans' feedback. They also seem to neglect that Bioware doesn't have much of an artistic integrity like shown above.

 

[HK-47]

When did that black and white rule get put into place? I mean I know I've said that the ending was so bad that it makes me not want to play the series anymore due to a "what's the point" feeling, but that doesn't mean I think it was a shit game. I wouldn't be hoping for a change to the ending if most of the game sucked.

Quiet you, you got two arbitrary options I pulled out of my ass and thats it.

 

[Speevy]

When did that black and white rule get put into place? I mean I know I've said that the ending was so bad that it makes me not want to play the series anymore due to a "what's the point" feeling, but that doesn't mean I think it was a shit game. I wouldn't be hoping for a change to the ending if most of the game sucked.

That rule was created when thousands of people started whining about the ending of a FREAKING VIDEO GAME.

I have never played Mass Effect 3, or 2, or 1. All I can process are two pieces of information. The ending to this game sucked. And the people take this game way too seriously.

 

[MechaX]

You can tell me about thousands of "internet fans" "raging" about the ending and, without discounting the fact that the same user can have an account in all of the services you cited, it's still the "great" minority of those who bought the game.

Did you read the post thoroughly enough to see that I already did address the possibility of overlap? That doesn't change anything all when considering that it would be improbable and illogical to assume that the overlap is great enough to the point where the entire metric boils down to the 1-3% you are hypothesizing. Moreover, again, it is quite disingenuous to assume that the issue ceases to exist outside of the vocal 'net population; not only were the problems with the ending mostly factual, but it also completely ignores any sweeping effect the word-of-mouth might have had, let alone accounts from "lay" players that I'm betting quite a few in this topic can testify to. If we are going the route of analyzing all of this in the guise of a statistical analysis, there is quite enough variables to shit things to the notion where it might not be the vocal internet public that might have a problem with things here.

 

[nckillthegrimace]

If you read this thread, then it's pretty obvious who among us are secretly game journalists.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The 29 hours before the ending are great. A few of those moments are easily in my Top 10 best vidja games lists. The last 10 minutes are easily one of the most baffling moment I've ever experienced playing games.

But it gave us Marauder Shields!

 

[jediyoshi]

I really do not understand this situation. When a company I like starts producing games I don't enjoy, I stop buying the games. Best way to let them know how you feel. I played a few hours into ME2, and turned it off. I skipped ME3. No desire to ever support EA again(not just because of ME2.)

I imagine people don't typically research in explicit detail a game's ending before they've gone out to purchase it.