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[Sutton Dagger]

There were a lot of reasons I lost faith. I loved science when I younger and I had a lot of questions about gaps I saw in the Bible that no one I asked could answer. At that time a few of the people I knew in church were some of the vilest people I knew. The third reason is that I just couldn't understand how God allowed so many bad things to happen.

My faith came back over time after I both witnessed and been through some things. I was twice jumped by a gang of 7 people trying to send message and came out with a scratch. I’ve seen people I knew recover from injuries or conditions with no medical explanation. I was surprisingly knocked down by someone laying hands on me. I never believed such things were real. I didn't think I was going to fall nor did I want to fall. Actually no one expected me to fall because I wasn't caught. I went down hard and since we were outside my head bounced off the concrete and I broke one of the folding chairs behind me.

I was happy I regained my faith when I went through cancer. It gave me a sense of comfort. I had my moments of anger when I asked why me, but to be honest the answer I got back was why not me. What made me so special that I should be spared? I still had my doubts about God then though. Its hard not too when you know you can die. Watching all the children there with cancer walk around with smiles on their face was surreal too.

You have your reasons, and though I don't agree that they are 'good' ones, I won't lambaste you for them.

You do use a logical fallacy in your statement about people getting better 'with no medical explanation' though. Your statement about 'falling down' is in regards to the holy spirit? Have you seen this?

 

[Mario]

I have a relevant topic that kind of spawned off of a post I made in that "My boyfriend doesn't believe in evolution" thread. Someone (supporting evolution) said something like "Well you got any better ideas on how we all came to be." I quoted that post and said "To be fair, that's the same logic creationists use. 'You don't have any better ideas, therefore God.'"

While the particular response you may have received in such a thread was poorly worded, there is a huge difference between challenging someone to refute an established scientific theory and Creationists filling in the gaps. You are trying to equate the following

"Do you have a better explanation and model with stronger predictive capability than the established scientific theory which is well supported by evidence and experimentation across multiple disciplines of science?"

and

"Do you have any better ideas regarding this currently unexplained phenomenon than God who being all knowing and all powerful can explain everything without going into detail?"

They are not the same.

I think people forget that "I don't know." is an acceptable answer. Sometimes people have asked me what happens when I die, and I say "I don't know, nothing?" They always think this is a ridiculous answer to give for whatever reason, and they usually try to argue with "Well we know more than you because we have an answer and you don't." "I don't know." is a perfectly acceptable answer if you don't know the answer to something. You shouldn't just have to fill in and assume something just because you have nothing.

"I don't know" is an acceptable and preferred answer depending on the context.

But there is also a difference between "I don't know because that is currently unknown to all or otherwise unknowable" and "I don't know because I personally lack knowledge in that area". Creationists often don't seem to acknowledge that difference or prey on a lack of personal domain knowledge as a perceived weakness in supporting an argument.

 

[Atramental]

You have your reasons, and though I don't agree that they are 'good' ones, I won't lambaste you for them.

You do use a logical fallacy in your statement about people getting better 'with no medical explanation' though. Your statement about 'falling down' is in regards to the holy spirit? Have you seen this?

Looks like a type of neuro-linguistic programming.

I'm actually using "NLP" right now to alter my negative emotions and habits into positive emotions and habits.

And I could technically simulate that "god/holy spirit feeling" within myself right now if I wanted to.

Edit: Also, I know science hasn't really validated it but that doesn't mean I can not use "it". Whatever it is.
I find it to be a very effective mental tool for myself.

Edit2: Plus it gives me a better understanding of how the charismatic religious types can whip themselves up into a frenzy.

 

[onipex]

You have your reasons, and though I don't agree that they are 'good' ones, I won't lambaste you for them.

You do use a logical fallacy in your statement about people getting better 'with no medical explanation' though. Your statement about 'falling down' is in regards to the holy spirit? Have you seen this?

I've seen something similar to that video and even taken part in it. It didn't work on me, but like in the video it was man doing it. It was a woman that time outside the church. When I say no medical explanation I mean the doctor ran test and didn't give anyone an answer as to what happened. Of course there could be reasons like someone making a mistake that was going to cause a person to go into surgery and it was just covered up by the hospital.

 

[Buckethead]

I still have some butterflies and things of that nature but today I feel pretty good.

Best day I've had in awhile. Thanks for putting up with my sometimes crazy or ranty posts. =)

 

[ReadingRambo]

Definitely know that feeling.

 

[CornBurrito]

I've seen something similar to that video and even taken part in it. It didn't work on me, but like in the video it was man doing it. It was a woman that time outside the church. When I say no medical explanation I mean the doctor ran test and didn't give anyone an answer as to what happened. Of course there could be reasons like someone making a mistake that was going to cause a person to go into surgery and it was just covered up by the hospital.

Even if modern medicine doesn't have an explanation, that doesn't mean the explanation is god.

 

[onipex]

Even if modern medicine doesn't have an explanation, that doesn't mean the explanation is god.

Yes, but modern medicine having an answer does not rule out my faith.

 

[CornBurrito]

Yes, but modern medicine having an answer does not rule out my faith.

And modern medicine having the answer wouldn't rid the world of faith-based explanations either. Just make them more socially acceptable to mock.

 

[Lothar]

I've seen something similar to that video and even taken part in it. It didn't work on me, but like in the video it was man doing it. It was a woman that time outside the church. When I say no medical explanation I mean the doctor ran test and didn't give anyone an answer as to what happened. Of course there could be reasons like someone making a mistake that was going to cause a person to go into surgery and it was just covered up by the hospital.

Yeah, I think the doctor making a mistake is probably a better answer than magic.

 

[Buckethead]

I am so done trying to be intellectually accommodating to intellectually dismissive people who totally disrespect me.

Deuces.

100% quitting tomorrow. No more of trying to make their pill go down more smoothly.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I am so done trying to be intellectually accommodating to intellectually dismissive people who totally disrespect me.

Deuces.

100% quitting tomorrow. No more of trying to make their pill go down more smoothly.

Do any of your recent observations and interactions alter your view of religious debates on GAF?

 

[Buckethead]

Do any of your recent observations and interactions alter your view of religious debates on GAF?

Yes but I think that if you're ever going to get anywhere on any issue, 1-on-1 or at least in-person interactions are necessary.

The Internet is very crowded. Makes hard to keep things focused.

 

[Count Dookkake]

That makes sense, but I'm wondering more specifically if you are hearing "arguments" that you used to say, but now see why they are faulty.

 

[Buckethead]

That makes sense, but I'm wondering more specifically if you are hearing "arguments" that you used to say, but now see why they are faulty.

Yes but now I think the term arguments gives them too much credit.

People just want to hammer the same old bullshit talking points and not think.

I can identify. You want your beliefs to be real. You want to do good.
It's all very well-intentioned but how does that one saying go again?

 

[Log4Girlz]

I'm sorry if this really doesn't belong in this thread, but it's about doubting faith and I had nowhere else to really put it.

Some people here know that I'm a believer, but I just had to say this after talking to someone today about faith. He was SO sure about God, about his faith...he denied completely any feelings of doubt.

I've come to the conclusion that those who are like him actually have the most doubt.

I feel that this sums up how I'm currently feeling.



Maybe atheists and theists have a little more in common than we like to admit? Am I just wrong here?

I can't be the only believer with doubts. But are there any atheists here that also have doubt?

Nope no doubt. If I ever witness a miracle, I may change my answer.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Yes but now I think the term arguments gives them too much credit.

People just want to hammer the same old bullshit talking points and not think.

I can identify. You want your beliefs to be real. You want to do good.
It's all very well-intentioned but how does that one saying go again?

That's what the scare-quotes are for.

Does this change your assessment of atheist behavior in these debates, online or IRL?

I find one of the biggest difficulties in these discussions is that we are supposed to have respect for that which deserves none.

 

[Buckethead]

Does this change your assessment of atheist behavior in these debates, online or IRL?

Yeah but I still think that you can be firm but fair.
Some do it better than others.

Evilore made a pretty good one at some point.

 

[onipex]

And modern medicine having the answer wouldn't rid the world of faith-based explanations either. Just make them more socially acceptable to mock.

I'm sure faith was mocked before modern knowledge so it doesn't really matter. I can think of a logical reason for most any situation that strengthens my faith.

 

[ReadingRambo]

I'm sure faith was mocked before modern knowledge so it doesn't really matter. I can think of a logical reason for most any situation that strengthens my faith.

A logical reason is not merely an equally likely alternative to a faith-based reason. It seems like you are giving them equal footing.

 

[Angry Fork]

I find one of the biggest difficulties in these discussions is that we are supposed to have respect for that which deserves none.

(quoting for thumbs up)

Yes. The 'elitist, asshole' label that constantly gets thrown at atheists is so annoying sometimes and then theists who de-convert are like oh yea man I was stubborn lol and it's like NO FUCKING SHIT. How does choosing faith over your internal logic/reason capabilities deserve any respect at all. It makes no sense. Whenever I hear someone say they like/respect someone because they're a 'man of god' or religious person I roll my eyes so far back and try not to grind my teeth too much.

 

[Buckethead]

Welp in the words of Jesus... "it is finished".

What a rough couple of weeks.

The future is bright, however.

 

[Head of Vengarl]

I didn't know where else to post this, so I'm coming here.

I would like to see a theist's rebuttal to this argument, specifically to what he says in the first 5 minutes (though he makes good points the rest of the time too): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HthQ6a7FZeA

And please don't think I am being sarcastic, or that I'm trying to lure you into a trap of mockery. I just found that to be a really strong argument and I would like to see what theists have to say to counter it. I'll also accept atheists acting as the devil's advocate.

 

[Buckethead]

Welp. Just came out to my mom.

That was super dee duper fun.

 

[soul creator]

Welp. Just came out to my mom.

That was super dee duper fun.

I got the "you're going to hell" comment when I did that.

We're cool now, but yeah, that was a fun time...

 

[Buckethead]

I would've preferred a "you're going to hell" comment, actually.

But there was a lot of confusion and sadness on her face which sucks.
She's generally very fragile emotionally and all that. I wish that I could believe in God for her but yeah... ugh.

Not fun.

 

[ZealousD]

I may be an atheist, but Darwin ain't my Jesus, and Dawkins ain't my Pope.

 

[Lothar]

I would've preferred a "you're going to hell" comment, actually.

But there was a lot of confusion and sadness on her face which sucks.
She's generally very fragile emotionally and all that. I wish that I could believe in God for her but yeah... ugh.

Not fun.

This is why my parents will never know if I can help it.

It's pretty messed up how the over the top cruelty of religion beliefs is the thing that makes it hard for atheists to come out. You would think abandoning such negative cruel ideas could only be a good thing, but no. It makes people sad for us because they believe us to be doomed.

 

[Dice]

There is a subtle thing moving out of religion you won't realize at first, but over time it becomes apparent. Simply, in your heart, you come to embrace your fellow man more. Religion was meant for this purpose originally, offering transcendent ethics and compassion, but if you already get those basic principles down, religion is only an obstruction. When you realize this one life and these people on earth are all you have, and it's same for everyone else, that we are all we have... you just appreciate them more.

We're in this together, GAF. I value this community more than ever.

 

[slidewinder]

Oh, Jesus.

 

[Timedog]

A lot of religious people don't have respect for other religions. And even most of the ones that have respect for other religions don't have respect for other forms of unfalsifiable bullshit. The only difference between Religion and the meanderings of a modern cult leader or the intent musings of someone locked in a mental hospital is an appeal to tradition. There's not even really an argument to be had.

 

[Air]

A lot of religious people don't have respect for other religions. And even most of the ones that have respect for other religions don't have respect for other forms of unfalsifiable bullshit. The only difference between Religion and the meanderings of a modern cult leader or the musings of someone locked in a mental hospital is an appeal to tradition. There's not even really an argument to be had.

I think Buddhism and Islam are very interesting religions myself. I would actually recommend any atheists look to Buddhism or read some of its literature as it may help a bit.

Judiasm is interesting, especially with a lot of the recent debaters I've heard on that side.

Don't know much about Hinduism or Sikhism though.

I think there's a lot to love about others practices in spite of me not adhering to them. But I understand I might one of the few.

 

[captainnapalm]

I think Buddhism and Islam are very interesting religions myself. I would actually recommend any atheists look to Buddhism or read some of its literature as it may help a bit.

Judiasm is interesting, especially with a lot of the recent debaters I've heard on that side.

Don't know much about Hinduism or Sikhism though.

I think there's a lot to love about others practices in spite of me not adhering to them. But I understand I might one of the few.

You're not suggesting atheists clue themselves up on things they dismiss in sweeping, generalised statements, are you? Perish the thought.

 

[Air]

You're not suggesting atheists clue themselves up on things they dismiss in sweeping, generalised statements, are you? Perish the thought.

If that's how you think I meant it don't worry about it lol. If anybody is interested though than they know my opinion on it (which may or may not matter to you). Some of you guys get a little too personal on this stuff.

 

[slidewinder]

He wasn't accusing you of making the sweeping, generalized statements, as I parsed his post at least.

 

[Air]

He wasn't accusing you of making the sweeping, generalized statements, as I parsed his post at least.

If that's the case, than I apologize. I misread it. Yeah on another re-read I definitely got that wrong. Sorry!

 

[captainnapalm]

If that's how you think I meant it don't worry about it lol. If anybody is interested though than they know my opinion on it (which may or may not matter to you). Some of you guys get a little too personal on this stuff.

I was supporting your post, dude, by way of thinly veiled sarcasm.

Cool, no worries.

 

[JGS]

This is why my parents will never know if I can help it.

It's pretty messed up how the over the top cruelty of religion beliefs is the thing that makes it hard for atheists to come out. You would think abandoning such negative cruel ideas could only be a good thing, but no. It makes people sad for us because they believe us to be doomed.

This doesn't make sense. Cruelty is not the reason you don't come out. Cowardice is. I'm amazed that this is spun into something noble.

If you are brave enough to chastise ones for their religion anonymously, why in the world wouldn't you have the guts to tell your family? Are they psychos? You should be preaching to them abbout your views to save them from their own idiocy. You're honest with strangers and a liar with family. That's a twisted concept to me.

I've left my parent's religion, thought i was athiest, & relaized I wasn't - all the while, my parents knew my steps and I got spankings as a kid! I should have been scared to death. They did keel over dead nor did they kill me.

There is a subtle thing moving out of religion you won't realize at first, but over time it becomes apparent. Simply, in your heart, you come to embrace your fellow man more. Religion was meant for this purpose originally, offering transcendent ethics and compassion, but if you already get those basic principles down, religion is only an obstruction. When you realize this one life and these people on earth are all you have, and it's same for everyone else, that we are all we have... you just appreciate them more.

We're in this together, GAF. I value this community more than ever.

This is not true. value doesn't have a limit and it's easy to value man & God just as it's easy to place more value on your beliefs without actually becoming an hater of people with other differing beliefs.

The original purpose of "religion" is very much the same and you could find more evidence that the groweth of atheism is leading to an alienation between people. Look at the above example lol.

 

[Timedog]

You're not suggesting atheists clue themselves up on things they dismiss in sweeping, generalised statements, are you? Perish the thought.

If you're passive-aggressively responding to me, you should just go ahead and directly tell me where my sweeping, generalized statement was incorrect.

If not, carry on.

 

[Dice]

I think value very much does have a limit. We are finite creatures with limited capacity of attention to disperse our cares. When things don't hinge on eternity they are so precious. If you have conviction of an eternity to rest upon beyond them, I don't think you can understand.

 

[t-ramp]

This doesn't make sense. Cruelty is not the reason you don't come out. Cowardice is. I'm amazed that this is spun into something noble.

If you are brave enough to chastise ones for their religion anonymously, why in the world wouldn't you have the guts to tell your family? Are they psychos?

For me it's simply because it would make living with them (my parents and siblings) rather uncomfortable if we were at open odds regarding religion.

 

[JGS]

I think value very much does have a limit. We are finite creatures with limited capacity of attention to disperse our cares. When things don't hinge on eternity they are so precious. If you have conviction of an eternity to rest upon beyond them, I don't think you can understand.

So if you have one kid, you love them more than parents who have 5 kids?

If someone is religious, they have less concern when their neighbors die as opposed to someone who thinks the limit is man?

We have just had a discussion in this thread about how religious people are stuid based on the views of man's limitations, so we are pretty aware.

Time and again, people have sacrifced their lives for their fellow man (The ultimate test of concern imo) including ones they don't know and never met. Nearly every social service has been as a result of a religious person's concern for their fellowman not to mention charities. They apparently can get to heaven doing far less after all.

I just think you presume too much to think that eternity is the primary focus of a religious person. That may have been for you, but overall living in harmony with the religious standards are the primary purpose and life isn't worth living much if you don't have your fellowman to hang around with.

 

[slidewinder]

If you are brave enough to chastise ones for their religion anonymously, why in the world wouldn't you have the guts to tell your family? Are they psychos? You should be preaching to them abbout your views to save them from their own idiocy.

I get the idea that a fair number of people try not to make waves against their parents' religious views just because they don't want to make their parents WORRY. It seems pretty common for certain kinds of Christians to worry that their (now known to be) atheist kids are going to go to hell. Is that untrue, or not something that "apostates" should take into consideration?

 

[captainnapalm]

If you're passive-aggressively responding to me, you should just go ahead and directly tell me where my sweeping, generalized statement was incorrect.

If not, carry on.

I wasn't responding to you specifically, though it does appear as if you qualify.

Do you not think it's a good idea to know as much as possible about something before you condemn it? Mention to an atheist, for example, that spiritual philosophies/religions like Buddhism and Taoism do not even have supreme beings and you'll usually get a puzzled expression. Yet they're happy to lump them in with all the other religions they judge and dismiss, despite knowing next to nothing about them.

In fact, the majority of atheists really only act in opposition to christianity, and even then it's just the kind of christianity they grew up with. All they're rejecting is the idea of God and the Bible they had as kids. A kind of 'F you' to whoever tried to make them believe in all that stuff literally.

 

[Timedog]

I wasn't responding to you specifically, though it does appear as if you qualify.

Do you not think it's a good idea to know as much as possible about something before you condemn it? Mention to an atheist, for example, that spiritual philosophies/religions like Buddhism and Taoism do not even have supreme beings and you'll usually get a puzzled expression. Yet they're happy to lump them in with all the other religions they judge and dismiss, despite knowing next to nothing about them.

In fact, the majority of atheists really only act in opposition to christianity, and even then it's just the kind of christianity they grew up with. All they're rejecting is the idea of God and the Bible they had as kids. A kind of 'F you' to whoever tried to make them believe in all that stuff literally.

Did you read the thread title? Feel free to reread my reply and respond to my use of the term "religion" in the context of the discussion we're having.

Anyways, I consider Buddhism and Taoism more philosophy than anything else.

 

[Dude Abides]

You're not suggesting atheists clue themselves up on things they dismiss in sweeping, generalised statements, are you? Perish the thought.

I wasn't responding to you specifically, though it does appear as if you qualify.

Do you not think it's a good idea to know as much as possible about something before you condemn it? Mention to an atheist, for example, that spiritual philosophies/religions like Buddhism and Taoism do not even have supreme beings and you'll usually get a puzzled expression. Yet they're happy to lump them in with all the other religions they judge and dismiss, despite knowing next to nothing about them.

In fact, the majority of atheists really only act in opposition to christianity, and even then it's just the kind of christianity they grew up with. All they're rejecting is the idea of God and the Bible they had as kids. A kind of 'F you' to whoever tried to make them believe in all that stuff literally.

Quoted for irony.

 

[Dice]

So if you have one kid, you love them more than parents who have 5 kids?

Taking the concept to extremes does nothing to disprove it. What if someone could have 1000 kids? Yes, I think they would individually care less for their children individually. See, this is how stupid it is to play extremes.

If someone is religious, they have less concern when their neighbors die as opposed to someone who thinks the limit is man?

Possibly. Do they believe they'll end up seeing them in the afterlife? If not, then was the effort to try and ensure that a distraction from just caring for the person for what they were and appreciating the times shared because there wasn't even a possibility of an afterlife?

Time and again, people have sacrifced their lives for their fellow man (The ultimate test of concern imo) including ones they don't know and never met.

There are biological factors that go into this. Actions in a crisis are not based on how well you cherish others in day to day life.

Nearly every social service has been as a result of a religious person's concern for their fellowman not to mention charities. They apparently can get to heaven doing far less after all.

I just think you presume too much to think that eternity is the primary focus of a religious person. That may have been for you, but overall living in harmony with the religious standards are the primary purpose and life isn't worth living much if you don't have your fellowman to hang around with.

Perhaps you missed what I said before...

Religion was meant for this purpose originally, offering transcendent ethics and compassion

I didn't say religious people are apathetic about others, I said the conviction that the limited moments right here and now are all you get and will ever get, it pushes one to accept what they are given with gratefulness.

Now before you fly off the handle with extremes again, obviously this is a commentary on someone who is philosophically well adjusted, hence what I said before:

...offering transcendent ethics and compassion, but if you already get those basic principles down, religion is only an obstruction.

As for the notion that atheism separates people, the rise of atheism is alongside more changes in all aspects of life than in all of human history. You can't do anything to show selfish individualism is the result of atheism and not any of thousands of other factors.

 

[Dice]

Do you not think it's a good idea to know as much as possible about something before you condemn it? Mention to an atheist, for example, that spiritual philosophies/religions like Buddhism and Taoism do not even have supreme beings and you'll usually get a puzzled expression. Yet they're happy to lump them in with all the other religions they judge and dismiss, despite knowing next to nothing about them.

Those two both incorporate a ton of folk mythology and superstition in many areas of the world, and those things are every bit as groundless as theism. If you remove the mythical spiritual elements just because they weren't in the very beginnings of them (which is as ridiculous as saying a liberal "historical" view of Christianity is the only thing that counts as Christianity) then Taoism is ancient philosophy and Buddhism is ancient psychology. I think they are nice, but limited and ignorant of much that we know now.

Also, don't you think there are atheists in China who would know about these things? What you're pointing out is a common ignorance westerners have of eastern culture more than an ignorance that atheists specifically/especially have of eastern religions.

 

[Buckethead]

A lot of religious people don't have respect for other religions. And even most of the ones that have respect for other religions don't have respect for other forms of unfalsifiable bullshit. The only difference between Religion and the meanderings of a modern cult leader or the intent musings of someone locked in a mental hospital is an appeal to tradition. There's not even really an argument to be had.

This is something I struggled with as a Christian.

Paul says that people would leave the truth and turn aside to myths.
Besides being entirely dismissive other religions - are we to assume Paul knew of them? Intimately or vaguely?

How can one take Christianity seriously when it has roots in known mythology such as the Epic Of Gilgamesh and Zoroastrianism, etc.?

I've also seen plenty of religious folk bash other religions of which they had little or no knowledge of which certainly lends credence to comments that most Christians only convert out of regionalism, group-think, and peer pressure.

 

[Lothar]

This doesn't make sense. Cruelty is not the reason you don't come out. Cowardice is. I'm amazed that this is spun into something noble.

If you are brave enough to chastise ones for their religion anonymously, why in the world wouldn't you have the guts to tell your family? Are they psychos? You should be preaching to them abbout your views to save them from their own idiocy. You're honest with strangers and a liar with family. That's a twisted concept to me.

Lmao, what is it about you that makes you unable to comprehend extremely simple sentences? Your question was already answered in the post you responded to. I said it's harder to come out to family because they'll feel bad for us. If a parent believes there is a god and that he sentences people to nonexistance or hell and that's where their kid will end up, they will consider themselves to be complete failures of a parent. And they should. Because if hell is a real place, the one goal in life should be avoiding it and saving people you love from it. Your kid going there would be way worse than your kid going to jail for life. You are quite the fool if you even this explained to you and if you even contemplate for one second that it's twisted.

I get the idea that a fair number of people try not to make waves against their parents' religious views just because they don't want to make their parents WORRY. It seems pretty common for certain kinds of Christians to worry that their (now known to be) atheist kids are going to go to hell.

Exactly, it's unbelievable that this even needs explaining. I'm flat out stunned. Like if your mind can't even grasp this which is common sense, how can you expect to be taken seriously when arguing about deeper concepts?