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[Necromanti]

Oblate spheroid, actually. ^^

My religious text disagrees with you, heathen.

If there is just a little hint that the bible might be true, then do what the bible says

If even believers cannot come up with a compelling argument for why the Bible is true, how could non-believers possibly be persuaded when there are many, equally justifiable religions? If certain parts of the Bible are incongruent with reality as we know it today, why would we not hypothesize that the same could hold true for the other parts?

 

[imtehman]

... this guy is a troll, right?

I mean, he's not actually suggesting that we can figure out if we want to be Christians from a few posts on an internet forum, right?

uhhhh, no that's not what i'm suggesting.

 

[Log4Girlz]

come on dude, this was written 2000 years ago

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

thats a pretty big assertion to say that the absolutely insane things of the new testament would be preached around the whole world, but look at today, its happening!

If there is just a little hint that the bible might be true, then do what the bible says

Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

This is your eternal salvation at stake

imtehman

Why doesn't that prophecy states how many nations the gospel will be preached in? Why does it not specify an exact year for the end?

That's a pretty compelling reason to make sure you're right about it then

Hell fire does not exist. As humans we evolved to be superstitious so that such threats would actually scare us and we follow arbitrary cultural laws and not fucking kill each other off. Religion served a purpose, it evolved for a reason.

When science shares a prophecy, it tends to be extremely exact. The standard model is so exact (to billionths of a percentage point) that well, fucking computers work. We can estimate exactly where on the energy scale the must higgs boson reside when we use the LHC, for its existence to make sense etc.

So why so vague? Why is this the prophecy so incredibly vague?

 

[imtehman]

imtehman

Why doesn't that prophecy states how many nations the gospel will be preached in? Why does it not specify an exact year?

When science shares a prophecy, it tends to be extremely exact. The standard model is so exact (to billionths of a percentage point) that well, fucking computers work. We can estimate exactly where on the energy scale the must higgs boson reside when we use the LHC, for its existence to make sense etc.

So why so vague? Why is this the prophecy so incredibly vague?

There's whole books of the bible that deal with prophecy. Daniel and Revelation in particular, that already have happened so that when you study for yourself, you can either come to believe it or if you're already a christian and study it, it will reinforce your beliefs.

Its the same way Jesus spoke in parables

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Why is it meant to be studied? Because that's how you seek God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

the bible isn't somethign you read casually like a fiction novel. It's meant to be studied.

 

[Log4Girlz]

There's whole books of the bible that deal with prophecy. Daniel and Revelation in particular, that already have happened so that when you study for yourself, you can either come to believe it or if you're already a christian and study it, it will reinforce your beliefs.

Its the same way Jesus spoke in parables

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

the bible isn't somethign you read casually like a fiction novel. It's meant to be studied.

If any of the prophecies were accurate then I would of heard of them, as everyone and their mother would be pointing to them as absolute proof the christian bible is accurate.

"Parables" so vague wordage basically. The more vague you are, the more you can spin whatever meaning you wish onto them.

What is the purpose of the bible?

If god existed, and truly wanted you to believe in him, why not just appear before you? Why not give incredibly specific scientific knowledge only the christian bible contained so you would know, the whole world would know it was accurate?

Because it was not written by a god, it is not divine in nature. Over the millenia it has been altered and edited to try to cover itself. Somehow, someway you are just supposed to believe what it says and god somehow should not be questioned. The bible is not specific and gives you no conclusive proof of its accuracy...to fucking challenge you? To test your faith?

 

[Necromanti]

There's whole books of the bible that deal with prophecy. Daniel and Revelation in particular, that already have happened so that when you study for yourself, you can either come to believe it or if you're already a christian and study it, it will reinforce your beliefs.

Looking through the book you mentioned, it seems to deal with a range of topics such as the Whore of Babylon, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, The Beast, and a false prophet (among others). Where would you suggest someone should start? How would I be able to reach the conclusion that these prophecies have already been fulfilled?

 

[imtehman]

Not a joke unless he's been keeping up this troll for a few months.

guys like sir isaac newton must be uber trolls then. The guy is arguably the greatest scientist who ever lived but he spent more time studying the bible then studying science.

 

[Log4Girlz]

guys like sir isaac newton must be uber trolls then. The guy is arguably the greatest scientist who ever lived but he spent more time studying the bible then studying science.

I'm sure his obsession with alchemy had big pay offs.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

guys like sir isaac newton must be uber trolls then. The guy is arguably the greatest scientist who ever lived but he spent more time studying the bible then studying science.

That's not why people are calling you a troll.

I am sure that Sir Isaac Newton responded to everything with "it's in the Bible lol", too.

 

[Log4Girlz]

That's not why people are calling you a troll.

I am sure that Sir Isaac Newton responded to everything with "it's in the Bible lol", too.

For some reason, religion and its holy books do not need to stand up to scrutiny. Everything he posted can be scrutinized and it just doesn't hold up. Religious ideologues simply cannot understand how such passages in the bible cannot be recognized as evidence :/

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I just can't deal with "you're asking me these questions because you're an idiot" types.

That and it's 3am. What else am I gonna do this early.

 

[EliCash]

I wish a prophet like the boring prophet from the Life of Brian was deemed as the Messiah. Then Christianity (or whatever it would be called instead) might not have took off, or at the very least would have died an early death.

There shall in that time be rumors of things going astray, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base - that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before (at about eight o'clock.)

It is written in the book of Cyril.

 

[imtehman]

Looking through the book you mentioned, it seems to deal with a range of topics such as the Whore of Babylon, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, The Beast, and a false prophet (among others). Where would you suggest someone should start? How would I be able to reach the conclusion that these prophecies have already been fulfilled?

some have happened, some are yet to happen.

The bible itself tells you how to study these things.

Isaiah 28:13
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little

Taking this into account and being that Daniel and Revelation are littered with symbolism, you would use the bible itself to interpret its symbols.

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

It would be foolish of me to say that the Lamb Revelation is talking about is Hitler or some other name. But some where else in the bible it tells you what the Lamb is

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is how one would study bible prophecy. We know then that Revelation 5:12 is talking about Jesus by looking at John 1:29

I dont want to give my interpretation of it, i think it it something that, if it interests you, should study for yourselves. But, whatever you do, always look to the Bible as your ultimate source.

 

[imtehman]

I just can't deal with "you're asking me these questions because you're an idiot" types.

That and it's 3am. What else am I gonna do this early.

i do not think you're an idiot at all. we are just sharing each others beliefs. i'm sorry if i came off as such. its hard to keep up when i'm trying to talk to multiple people

 

[Necromanti]

The bible itself tells you how to study these things.

Taking this into account and being that Daniel and Revelation are littered with symbolism, you would use the bible itself to interpret its symbols.

This is how one would study bible prophecy. We know then that Revelation 5:12 is talking about Jesus by looking at John 1:29

I understand what you are saying, but wouldn't there need to be some sort of external proof to give legitimacy to the prophecies? Something we could see in the physical world, I mean. Otherwise, we'd just be taking the Bible's word for it. A valid prophecy can't be self-contained in the Bible, or we'd be making assumptions. The Bible can't both make the claim and then prove it at the same time. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[imtehman]

If any of the prophecies were accurate then I would of heard of them, as everyone and their mother would be pointing to them as absolute proof the christian bible is accurate.

"Parables" so vague wordage basically. The more vague you are, the more you can spin whatever meaning you wish onto them.

What is the purpose of the bible?

If god existed, and truly wanted you to believe in him, why not just appear before you? Why not give incredibly specific scientific knowledge only the christian bible contained so you would know, the whole world would know it was accurate?

Because it was not written by a god, it is not divine in nature. Over the millenia it has been altered and edited to try to cover itself. Somehow, someway you are just supposed to believe what it says and god somehow should not be questioned. The bible is not specific and gives you no conclusive proof of its accuracy...to fucking challenge you? To test your faith?

i will give an answer this tomorrow, its time for bed. it was fun though!

 

[OttomanScribe]

I find that avatar quite off putting.

 

[jdogmoney]

Hey, speaking of prophesy:

19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Essentially, the city of Tyre is prophesied in the Bible to never be rebuilt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

It was rebuilt.

What does a Biblical literalist have to say on something like this?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Science: Make as few assumptions as possible

Religion: Take all these assumptions as truth

 

[Sutton Dagger]

There's whole books of the bible that deal with prophecy. Daniel and Revelation in particular, that already have happened so that when you study for yourself, you can either come to believe it or if you're already a christian and study it, it will reinforce your beliefs.

Is someone else really pulling out the Book of Daniel as prophetic card? It's already been discussed at length ( though the person who was making the same claim never returned) mainstream scholars date 'Daniel' to the 2nd century BCE, well after the supposed fulfillment of the prophecies. So you're yet to produce any legitimate prophecies or evidence for your claims, I would like for you to keep trying though.

Just produce one unambiguous prophecy or piece of evidence, it shouldn't be difficult.

 

[phisheep]

The seven day week is literally BECAUSE of the Bible and the civilisations it influenced and got influenced by. An astral year isn't divisible by seven in its amount of days.

No, but seven days is almost exactly a quarter of the moon's phases - and it's the lunar rather than the solar calendar that dominated for much of history.

 

[KtSlime]

the bible is a history book. Jewish people are evidence.

They came from somewhere. They had a beginning. They recorded their beginnings in thier writings, that writings became the old testament.

You celebrate the 4th of July, why? Because its a tradition that been passed down from generation to generation of an event that happened in the past. There's evidence of the 4th of July such as the declaration of independence.

The Jews today still celebrate the Passover why? Because its a tradition that has been passed down from generation to generation of an event that happened in the past. There's evidence that it happened, it was written by a man named Moses who then passed it down to a whole nation of people who passed it down to successive generations which today is called the Old Testament.

Stop right there. Even ISRAEL doesn't agree with you that the Exodus occurred. Your evidence for why the Bible is a history book is based on an event everyone now knows didn't happen. What sense does that make?

 

[Mgoblue201]

There is very little evidence that Moses ever existed. In fact, the entire Pentateuch couldn't have been written by Moses, because it refers to places and things that weren't established until centuries later, and it's written in a style that would be awkward from Moses's perspective. Notable archaeologist William G. Dever writes:

The miraculous, larger-than-life story of the Exodus as it now stands in the Bible cannot be corroborated as factual history. Nor do we even need to presume such a series of events in a far off foreign land, given archaeology's recent documentation of the rise of early Israel within Canaan. To put it simply, there is no longer a place or a need for the Exodus as a historical explanation for the origins of Israel. The story, however dramatic, however central to the self-identification of later Biblical Israel—or even our own identity in the West—is best regarded as a myth. In this case, it is just the sort of origin myth that has characterized many other peoples past and present.

Also, atheist cat does not approve of the arguments for a historical Exodus:

 

[jp_zer0]

There should be a thread dedicated to atheism versus liberalism.

Sure, the god believers are still around, and rightfully should be owned, but they aren't the only ones espousing morals.

Liberals are the greatest moralists of this day, always stressing equality and ascetic living.

 

[The Technomancer]

There should be a thread dedicated to atheism versus liberalism.

Sure, the god believers are still around, and rightfully should be owned, but they aren't the only ones espousing morals.

Liberals are the greatest moralists of this day, always stressing equality and ascetic living.

Dude, what is with you lately?

 

[Rapstah]

No, but seven days is almost exactly a quarter of the moon's phases - and it's the lunar rather than the solar calendar that dominated for much of history.

Yeah, my point, poorly communicated over mobile GAF, was that the fact that we use it today doesn't have anything to do with how good it is.

 

[Buckethead]

Dude, what is with you lately?

What's with today, today?

 

[makingmusic476]

Dude, what is with you lately?

He's cracking me up.

 

[Orayn]

I find that avatar quite off putting.

I laughed when he ignored me pointing out the similarities between Kefka and certain nihilistic aspects of his own worldview.

 

[Raist]

guys like sir isaac newton must be uber trolls then. The guy is arguably the greatest scientist who ever lived but he spent more time studying the bible then studying science.

Newton, like many eminent scientists before and after him, started invoking god when he reached his limit. You won't find any mention of god in his establishment of the physical laws of motion or calculus.

 

[thoughthorizon]

The explanation for that would be how you will punish your kid if he/she tries to touch fire even after you educated them. Meaning, its your love as a father for his/her safety , that seems to look as anger and punishment. But instead is actually so much love that he cant see you hurt yourself.

That was the conclusion i came to when I use to believe in the fairy tale of God.

No that isn't an explanation: God's punishment is eternal and the same irrespective of the crime.

It's like me beating my daughter to death because she refused to say please and thank you then saying "oh - I was teaching her a lesson because I love her".

This doesn't teach a lesson

From what i'm reading its not that you guys don't believe in God, its just that you hate the God of the bible and choose to ignore him.

Seriously? That's what you get: we point out the inconsistencies and provable incorrectness of biblical scripture, ask for evidence for any of it, and your conclusion is "oh, you just hate God".

No, we don't hate God... we don't believe there is a God. By that logic I also hate unicorns, because I don't believe in them either.

the bible is a history book. Jewish people are evidence.

They came from somewhere. They had a beginning. They recorded their beginnings in thier writings, that writings became the old testament.

Now I know you're trolling. The Australian Aboriginals have myths of their history too - so presumably they're also factual accounts and everything in the world was created by the mother spirit's footsteps?

You realise that there is no evidence for many of the events in the bible, and often there is good evidence which directly contradicts it? Does this mean it's all fictional? No - some elements may have a root in oral histories, but these are mythologised - Spiderman comics tell us that he lives in New York - it's a real place, but that doesn't make Spiderman a real person!

Do we trust that everything in Herodotus' histories are true? Of course not - they are mythologised accounts!

Why would you presume otherwise for this single book (the Bible) when supernatural mythology is the norm for every other religious tale and scripture?

7 day week cycle? Yeah, its in the bible too. Even today you live your life according to a seven day week cycle. I wonder why that is? The bible writers must of gotten lucky on that one too.

...

Or maybe the bible got lucky when 2400 years before science figured out the earth was round that

Isaiah 40:20
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Firstly, the 7 day week predates Jewish culture (meaning they likely inherited it from earlier ones), and more importantly there is no inherent 7 day week in nature - ancient China, for example had a 10 day week. 7 days is a useful approximation because it fits into the 28 approximate days of the lunar cycle - this is not mystical in any way.

There is nothing in the bible about the earth as an oblate spheroid, nor even a sphere. The "circle of the earth" reflects the belief which stretches back to the earliest proto babylonian cultures who believed the earth was a disc in a hemisphere of "the heavens" - hence a circle in a "tent".

Likewise dinosaur bones are nothing new - finding a myth for bones exposed in rock is easy to explain.

There is no science here, just observation of the world and making up a nice story about it.

 

[Lafiel]

Newton, like many eminent scientists before and after him, started invoking god when he reached his limit. You won't find any mention of god in his establishment of the physical laws of motion or calculus.

Issac newton also came from a time where most scientists would have been religious.

Although some of newton religious beliefs would have been considered heresy by some sects of christianity back then.

 

[Lothar]

What happened to Game Analyst? Is he now an atheist since he couldn't respond to anyone's arguments?

 

[krioto]

I'm just impressed that this particular form of self-delusion has been debated for as long as it has.
First reply should have been - Bible is not true; you guys been scammed - jelly? = trolling the ultimate troll

 

[Chaplain]

What happened to Game Analyst? Is he now an atheist since he couldn't respond to anyone's arguments?

I am right here. I will respond on the weekend when I have a lot of free time to respond to all of the posts.

 

[Buckethead]

There's literally dozens of prophecies that were made in the OT that would be almost impossible to recton randomly.

When you understand how these texts where put together and why -- these types of things make a lot more sense.
I'd recommend "Who Wrote The New Testament" for starters.

Also not sure we're on the same page on the definition of "retcon".

 

[Canuck76]

When you understand how these texts where put together and why -- these types of things make a lot more sense.
I'd recommend "Who Wrote The New Testament" for starters.

Also not sure we're on the same page on the definition of "retcon".

What's your definition of retcon?

 

[DarthWoo]

People are ACTUALLY basing their faith on supposed Biblical prophesies? Even Biblical scholars who have stated that it is most likely that many of the supposed prophesies were retroactively written long after the events they predicted. This is to say nothing of the prophesies that are so vague that they look Nostradamus sound like someone with OCD, or the ones that were inevitable, or the ones that were just plain self-fulfilling.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Guys, Guys!!!!

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams

Faith (in the religious sense) is based on the premise that faith is God's proof that God's existence is truth {and does not rely on facts}.
I'd like to omit the last part but quoted it for totality

As a Christian, that would be soooooo temting to accept as the ultimate explanation. Veeeeeeery tempting. So good.

 

[JGS]

People are ACTUALLY basing their faith on supposed Biblical prophesies? Even Biblical scholars who have stated that it is most likely that many of the supposed prophesies were retroactively written long after the events they predicted. This is to say nothing of the prophesies that are so vague that they look Nostradamus sound like someone with OCD, or the ones that were inevitable, or the ones that were just plain self-fulfilling.

That reminds of the scholar who said the apostles were likely illiterate and so it was impossible for them to write Scripture lol.

Prophecies are not the only reason for faith, but Bible scholars en masse do not say the prophecies were retoactive. As usual it depends on who you listen to and what they're trying to sell you. If one is of the opinion that prohecies & miracles are impossible to begin with, only a time machine would satisfy them regarding it.

From a logical viewpoint, most prophecies regarding future invents need no retrofitting to begin with. They tend toward vaguery and symbolism since the writer didn't have a clue and pertinent only to the Jews or Christians to begin with. If they were retroactive, it would have been smart to simply spell it out so we could be in absolute awe.

 

[jdogmoney]

I am right here. I will respond on the weekend when I have a lot of free time to respond to all of the posts.

I'd love to get your opinion on how the city of Tyre exists when Biblically it was meant to never be rebuilt.

 

[JGS]

I'd love to get your opinion on how the city of Tyre exists when Biblically it was meant to never be rebuilt.

I am trying to find where it says this. It seems more significant the manner that it was destroyed back then, but the verse that says never rebuilt escapes my quick efforts. This isn't necessarily a challenge btw, just can't find it.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Why is it that when I open a bible the pages don't glow.

 

[Ashes]

Why is it that when I open a bible the pages don't glow.

I actually don't have time to answer this question, as I'm on my way out.

But I couldn't find the Q&A thread within the 15+evangelical atheist spam threads from a couple of months ago, in the ten seconds I just spent looking for it. So I'll just leave my two questions here, and I'll maybe read them at a later date. This thread is just a trolling dumping ground these days, so these two questions will at least re-direct the focus onto actual discussion again. Anyway,

1, Is atheism a more reasonable position than agnosticism?
2, What is the positive evidence for Atheism?

 

[JGS]

Why is it that when I open a bible the pages don't glow.

You're not at Chernobyl?
You ran out of matches?
You don't have one of those glow in the dark Bibles everyone is talking about?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I actually don't have time to answer this question, as I'm on my way out.

But I couldn't find the Q&A thread within the 15+evangelical atheist spam threads from a couple of months ago, in the ten seconds I just spent looking for it. So I'll just leave my two questions here, and I'll maybe read them at a later date. This thread is just a trolling dumping ground these days, so these two questions will at least re-direct the focus onto actual discussion again. Anyway,

1, Is atheism a more reasonable position than agnosticism?
2, What is the positive evidence for Atheism?

Agnosticism and atheism aren't neccesarily contrasting positions.

Atheism as a negative statement isn't really about positive evidence.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I actually don't have time to answer this question, as I'm on my way out.

But I couldn't find the Q&A thread within the 15+evangelical atheist spam threads from a couple of months ago, in the ten seconds I just spent looking for it. So I'll just leave my two questions here, and I'll maybe read them at a later date. This thread is just a trolling dumping ground these days, so these two questions will at least re-direct the focus onto actual discussion again. Anyway,

1, Is atheism a more reasonable position than agnosticism?
2, What is the positive evidence for Atheism?

1. I'm pretty sure someone can be an agnostic atheist
2. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. No evidence in Sasquatch? I dismiss him. Exact same amount of evidence of God? I dismiss him.

You're not at Chernobyl?
You ran out of matches?
You don't have one of those glow in the dark Bibles everyone is talking about?

I was expecting a text written by a god to shower me with divine light and a chorus of angels.

 

[JGS]

1. I'm pretty sure someone can be an agnostic atheist
2. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. No evidence in Sasquatch? I dismiss him. Exact same amount of evidence of God? I dismiss him.



I was expecting a text written by a god to shower me with divine light and a chorus of angels.

Well everyone knows expectations always equal reality.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Well everyone knows expectations always equal reality.

If I were a god I would blow people's minds, the books would have animated illustrations, holograms, the secrets of the universe and everyone would be happy, behave and get into heaven. The god of the bible couldn't even give it a glow, nothin.

 

[Ashes]

Agnosticism and atheism aren't neccesarily contrasting positions.

Atheism as a negative statement isn't really about positive evidence.

True. So what is the difference between an agnostic position, an agnostic-atheist position, and a purely atheist position re: God? Or does that not make sense?