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The Wii U Speculation Thread V: The Final Frontier

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B

BurntPork

Banned
z0m3le said:
That 35watt TDP also includes memory right? it's also a 40nm chip, will be interesting to see how they could tweak something similar to that... just a gut feeling though, I think that they would choose 640 stream processors, it fits nicer to the original dev kits of project cafe and the bump in performance rumor also comes with what you were told about them finishing the chip in december/janurary... so maybe it's similar to something like a e6760 in design, but based on a slightly larger mobile gpu (the e6760 is based off of the 6700m series)

I'm really interested to hear if they are building the GPU on a 32nm or 28nm process, both are avalible to NEC and I would imagine that Nintendo is taking an approach to the chip similar to the Xbox 360 Slim which, if I'm not mistaken allowed for sharing the 10MB cache of Xenos with Xenon (though that isn't used as to allow compatibility to original 360s)

A little speculation: a 640sp 700mhz GPU with 32MB embedded memory share-able to a 3 core 6 thread ~3ghz IBM power7 related CPU all on a 32nm/28nm chip, would be a pretty strong performer, especially with 2GB ram. The chip could probably fit under 80watts TDP as well.

I also think Iwata might have increased the specs of the machine around the beginning of the year to match his "deeper" targets of Wii U.
Click to expand...

700MHz is too high for that many SPs. 400-550MHz would be more likely.

z0m3le said:
Two very important things about that chip should be noted.

1. It's 40nm and the Wii U GPU could very likely be made on NEC's 32nm process, or their 28nm process, which will drastically drop it's TDP to ~25watts.

2. The e6760 is embedded with memory and other unnecessary parts, so that chip would likely work under 20watts.

If that wasn't cool enough, it's based on the HD6570/HD6670 and the wattage needed to go from 600mhz to 800mhz on that chip was only 7 watts on the 40nm process, so using a similar chip at 32nm for instance (with only the GPU chip) you could assume 640sp @ even 800watts should be doable for 35watt TDP today, and that would give you 1024Gflops, Or the just over 1Tflop that we have heard from rumors and even BG in the past.

If Nintendo did this, it would be very interesting, but if they used only 480sp with some fixed functionality shaders, I could see them producing some really cool effects, but I'd rather have them create a SoC that is under 80watts that uses the 640sp @ 800mhz and a 3 core CPU ~ 3ghz on the 32nm chip with some fix functionality shaders, and 32MB embedded memory shared between the GPU/CPU.

Fantastic console specs even if they don't look amazing on paper, the Wii U wouldn't show it's age for years with the rumored PS4/720 specs where they are.
Click to expand...

Assuming you mean 800MHz, no, it can't. You need to calm down a bit. Your expectations are getting out of hand.
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
BurntPork said:
700MHz is too high for that many SPs. 400-550MHz would be more likely.
Click to expand...

If you do the math, it's actually correct... 25 watts / 480 is .052 X 640 is 33.28 watts.

That is assuming that if you strip the e6760 of it's memory, it would shed about 5watts, and shrinking it to the 32nm process would again shrink the power draw by 5 watts... leaving you with the 25watts I assume (it should be a bit below this actually, and if it used 28nm it would be ~20watts.

This means that you'd only use about .052 watt TDP per stream processor, 640sp's @ 800mhz should only consume 33 watts at that point.
 
T

TunaLover

Member
Gahiggidy said:
Guys, if the box really is limited to one and only one wuc, than anyone who ever wants to play a multiplayer game will have no choice but to pick up a wiimote. You're argument is akin to saying... "developers will never support multiplayer games on N64 due to there only being one controller in the box."

p.s. - I can't sleep.
Click to expand...

I think it was confirmed that it will support at least 2 Wii U controllers.
Also, is not the same situation, people could be confused if found they need a controller from previous gen for multiplayer, having a Wiimote right into the box is a wise way of make people aware of the system features for multiplayer, also secure that developers can chose make a game around upad or wiimote, without worry about potential wiimoteless consumers.
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
z0m3le said:
If you do the math, it's actually correct... 25 watts / 480 is .052 X 640 is 33.28 watts.

That is assuming that if you strip the e6760 of it's memory, it would shed about 5watts, and shrinking it to the 32nm process would again shrink the power draw by 5 watts... leaving you with the 25watts I assume (it should be a bit below this actually, and if it used 28nm it would be ~20watts.

This means that you'd only use about .052 watt TDP per stream processor, 640sp's @ 800mhz should only consume 33 watts at that point.
Click to expand...

The problem is that those estimates are based on TDPs of mobile chips, which have much lower yields, with high clocks lowering them even more, so Nintendo would need to give more headroom to ensure that they can make enough consoles. In addition, TDP doesn't scale like that and there are other factors to consider.
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
BurntPork said:
The problem is that those estimates are based on TDPs of mobile chips, which have much lower yields, with high clocks lowering them even more, so Nintendo would need to give more headroom to ensure that they can make enough consoles. In addition, TDP doesn't scale like that and there are other factors to consider.
Click to expand...

BurntPork said:
Assuming you mean 800MHz, no, it can't. You need to calm down a bit. Your expectations are getting out of hand.
Click to expand...
I am talking about an embedded part based on Turks mobile or HD 6770M which can do those numbers, here for instance is the HD 7870M which uses the much bulkier GCN architecture, that Wii U shouldn't be using. 640sp @ 800mhz with a TDP of 40watts. (28nm but using a bulky graphics compute core, the 6000 series is a faster performer per sp per watt for that reason.)

The 35watt TDP wouldn't need to be held to, I would rather them do a SoC that is 80watts or so that includes the CPU so they both have access to that 32MB of embedded memory. The Wii U box might be small, but it should be able to push out a much larger TDP, remember the original PS3 was something like 255 watt TDP. (I think)

EDIT: I was wrong. Sony says the launch PS3's power supply is 380 watts, the TDP wouldn't be that high, most people get 170 from the wall from launched consoles, and you'd have to design for a bit higher than that, so ~200 TDP is probably a safe bet. http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/sony_playstation_3_further_details.php

o_O
 
aeroslash

aeroslash

Member
z0m3le said:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it would have one, even Xenos has tessellation, and the rumored HD 4800 series for the original dev kits, had tessellation, also even the HD 6670 (a very mainstream AMD chip from last generation) had tessellation and is also what BG's e6760 is based on. I just don't see a reason why they would possibly not have one.
Click to expand...

Thanks, i wanted to say if it has a modern and good performance tessellator, as in last year GPUs...
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
aeroslash said:
Thanks, i wanted to say if it has a modern and good performance tessellator, as in last year GPUs...
Click to expand...

Yeah, it should do some modern tessellation, I would guess that developers will be using it a lot more in games this next generation, and while it won't do it as well as a top end HD 6900, it should allow for a much nicer looking game than we are use to.
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
z0m3le said:
I am talking about an embedded part based on Turks mobile or HD 6770M which can do those numbers, here for instance is the HD 7870M which uses the much bulkier GCN architecture, that Wii U shouldn't be using. 640sp @ 800mhz with a TDP of 40watts. (28nm but using a bulky graphics compute core, the 6000 series is a faster performer per sp per watt for that reason.)
Click to expand...

There are no embedded 640SP parts, though, so your calculations are meaningless. Even then, the embedded parts are based on mobile parts, so everything I just said still applies. Plus, high clocks make chips HOT, even with what appears to be a low TDP. Frankly, I don't even see Sony or Microsoft using chips with clock speeds over 700MHz. I actually had a conversation with Alstrong, and he said that 480SPs @ 775MHz sounds too high. That's the thing about clock speeds. If heat is a concern, it's actually better to go with more ALUs and a lower clock than less ALUs and a higher clock.

z0m3le said:
EDIT: I was wrong. Sony says the launch PS3's TDP was 380 watts. http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/sony_playstation_3_further_details.php

o_O
Click to expand...

No, that was just the size of the power supply. It didn't consume anywhere near that.
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
BurntPork said:
There are no embedded 640SP parts, though, so your calculations are meaningless. Even then, the embedded parts are based on mobile parts, so everything I just said still applies. Plus, high clocks make chips HOT, even with what appears to be a low TDP. Frankly, I don't even see Sony or Microsoft using chips with clock speeds over 700MHz. I actually had a conversation with Alstrong, and he said that 480SPs @ 775MHz sounds too high. That's the thing about clock speeds. If heat is a concern, it's actually better to go with more ALUs and a lower clock than less ALUs and a higher clock.



No, that was just the size of the power supply. It didn't consume anywhere near that.
Click to expand...

That is why my (granted) rough calculations/estimations are doable, the 6770m has a TDP of 30watts and runs at 725mhz with 480sp, so Alstrong, who might be very intelligent, probably doesn't make mobile GPUs.

All I'm saying is that expecting these sort of numbers isn't that crazy, when perfectly sane people expect Xbox3 and PS4 to have GPUs with 2Tflops of performance, that is basically not going to happen unless they are 1000sp @ 1ghz... the HD 7850 for instance is 1024sp @ 860mhz and does 1761Gflops.

They are basically only sane if they expect Pitcairn mobile 7970m inside these boxes... 1280sp @ 850mhz for 2176Gflops (TDP 65w)
 
A

AGITΩ

Member
Gahiggidy said:
Guys, if the box really is limited to one and only one wuc, than anyone who ever wants to play a multiplayer game will have no choice but to pick up a wiimote. You're argument is akin to saying... "developers will never support multiplayer games on N64 due to there only being one controller in the box."

p.s. - I can't sleep.
Click to expand...

Unless they focus on *gasp* ONLINE MULTIPLAYER!
But that would be a turn off for the Family players introduced in this generation.
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
Gahiggidy said:
Guys, if the box really is limited to one and only one wuc, than anyone who ever wants to play a multiplayer game will have no choice but to pick up a wiimote. You're argument is akin to saying... "developers will never support multiplayer games on N64 due to there only being one controller in the box."

p.s. - I can't sleep.
Click to expand...
Clowns will eat you?
 
Portugeezer

Portugeezer

Member
Mario Kart Wii U...

7Rpxj.gif


SO REAL!

1699533-dutycalls_2011_02_03_21_45_13_84_super.png
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
Hopefully Nintendo really plans on pushing downloadable games on the Wii U. They should really take advantage of their relationships with Japanese devs and go to them to produce exclusive sequels to some of their classic franchises. 2D versions of Ninja Gaiden, Streets of Rage, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius etc. Similar to what Capcom did with Mega Man 9 and 10. They could even reuse sprites from those early games as the retro look is very much accepted with downloadable games. It instantly give their network an identity.
 
F

fabricated backlash

Member
SolidSnakex said:
Hopefully Nintendo really plans on pushing downloadable games on the Wii U. They should really take advantage of their relationships with Japanese devs and go to them to produce exclusive sequels to some of their classic franchises. 2D versions of Ninja Gaiden, Streets of Rage, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius etc. Similar to what Capcom did with Mega Man 9 and 10. They could even reuse sprites from those early games as the retro look is very much accepted with downloadable games. It instantly give their network an identity.
Click to expand...

It would also be a perfect fit for the tablet controller as the retro assets would look lovely on that screen.
 
S

squid

Member
Sorry if this has been covered before (who am I kidding, it's the 5th thread, of course it's been covered), but do we expect all of the wii's virtual console games to be available to buy on wiiu's virtual console from the start? Would really suck if it isn't.
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
squid said:
Sorry if this has been covered before (who am I kidding, it's the 5th thread, of course it's been covered), but do we expect all of the wii's virtual console games to be available to buy on wiiu's virtual console from the start? Would really suck if it isn't.
Click to expand...

No idea. Probably, though.
 
H

Hot Coldman

Banned
You guys are nuts.

So... given all the broo-ha-ha about Nintendo doing DD for their first-party games, does that mean their launch games will be available to download? I haven't been keeping up.
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
Green Scar said:
You guys are nuts.

So... given all the broo-ha-ha about Nintendo doing DD for their first-party games, does that mean their launch games will be available to download? I haven't been keeping up.
Click to expand...
They said they'd have it from day one. So I'd assume that would mean launch games.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Not directly Wii U related, but several middleware providers have started adding support for an unannounced new platform over the last few days, so either Xbox3 or PS4. That usually happens around 10 to 18 months before a platform launches, so it really looks like Nintendo will have a significant head start.
 
D

Disorientator

Member
wsippel said:
Not directly Wii U related, but several middleware providers have started adding support for an unannounced new platform over the last few days, so either Xbox3 or PS4. That usually happens around 10 to 18 months before a platform launches, so it really looks like Nintendo will have a significant head start.
Click to expand...

Mmm...interesting.
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
z0m3le said:
That is why my (granted) rough calculations/estimations are doable, the 6770m has a TDP of 30watts and runs at 725mhz with 480sp, so Alstrong, who might be very intelligent, probably doesn't make mobile GPUs.

All I'm saying is that expecting these sort of numbers isn't that crazy, when perfectly sane people expect Xbox3 and PS4 to have GPUs with 2Tflops of performance, that is basically not going to happen unless they are 1000sp @ 1ghz... the HD 7850 for instance is 1024sp @ 860mhz and does 1761Gflops.

They are basically only sane if they expect Pitcairn mobile 7970m inside these boxes... 1280sp @ 850mhz for 2176Gflops (TDP 65w)
Click to expand...

Meant to say not over 800MHz for Sony and Microsoft.

Sony: 1152 @ 800MHz = 1843GFLOPs
Microsoft: 1280 @ 750-800MHz = 2048GFLOPs

Sony ends up a bit below, but not that much. Certainly not enough to bottleneck it. Nintendo, however? Unless the final box is much bigger, don't count on such high clocks.
 
J

JoshuaJSlone

Member
Freezie KO said:
The only real outliers are Super Mario Strikers and Paper Mario, which is defined by being a different art style.
Click to expand...
Also Mario & Luigi.
idwl said:
I would actually be annoyed if nintendo packed in a wiimote and nunchuck , I'd rather they not include them and use those saved few dollars(no idea how much) to increase the consoles power rather than give us controllers most people have many of already.
Click to expand...
Hardware design decisions probably came waaaay before finalizing what's in the box.
 
R

Rösti

Unconfirmed Member
wsippel said:
Not directly Wii U related, but several middleware providers have started adding support for an unannounced new platform over the last few days, so either Xbox3 or PS4. That usually happens around 10 to 18 months before a platform launches, so it really looks like Nintendo will have a significant head start.
Click to expand...
Intriguing. Do you know what this unannounced new platform is labeled as, does it have a code name or is it just "next generation platform"?
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Rösti;37800403 said:
Intriguing. Do you know what this unannounced new platform is labeled as, does it have a code name or is it just "next generation platform"?
Click to expand...
Just says "future unannounced platform", or nothing at all in some cases (confidential/ censored changelogs).
 
B

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
peter said:
But the site is also placing a big questionmark who the blond lady is in the blue outfit.
Click to expand...

I know it is getting old pointing out gaming sites that lack even the most basic gaming knowledge, but not knowing who Samus Aran is really pushing it.
 
H

Hot Coldman

Banned
Kinda odd how those GMod pictures are mostly dudes in space armour, and Samus (a character with one of the most well-known suits in gaming) is conveniently left in the Zero Suit.
 
L

Luigison

Member
squid said:
Sorry if this has been covered before (who am I kidding, it's the 5th thread, of course it's been covered), but do we expect all of the wii's virtual console games to be available to buy on wiiu's virtual console from the start? Would really suck if it isn't.
Click to expand...
Will all my Wii VC games transfer to my Wii U account? Would really suck if they don't.
 
tkscz

tkscz

Member
Green Scar said:
Kinda odd how those GMod pictures are mostly dudes in space armour, and Samus (a character with one of the most well-known suits in gaming) is conveniently left in the Zero Suit.
Click to expand...

Yeah that bothers me about it too, considering I have Gmod and there are a TON of suited Samus models.
 
S

stupidvillager

Neo Member
BurntPork said:
The problem is that those estimates are based on TDPs of mobile chips, which have much lower yields, with high clocks lowering them even more, so Nintendo would need to give more headroom to ensure that they can make enough consoles. In addition, TDP doesn't scale like that and there are other factors to consider.
Click to expand...

Doesn't really matter if its based on a mobile part. The Wii U gpu isnt based on a desktop part its its own design, so its just as fair to speculate on mobile parts as it is on desktop parts. They both use the same tech. Nintendo could do whatever they want. They have to concentrate on one gpu, not several.
 
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