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[Game-Biz]

Where has Ideaman gone lately ?, maybe his sources aren't talking anymore after the guy who leaked the controller changes was fired.

Looks like we are done for leaks, ah well just over a week to go now ! .

At this point, I don't want leaks. E3 is so close, I just want to surprised at the conference

 

[bgassassin]

Nintendo made such a big deal about the screen-switch feature, I'd bet it is a hard requirement, and nobody will be able to ignore it. But it can't be a firmware feature, because different games will have to act differently - for example, if a game put its HUD entirely on the second screen, it would have to move it to the game screen when the game was moved to the controller.

It's not a requirement.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/309959/wii-u-developers-dont-have-to-use-touchscreen-nintendo/

Nintendo EAD's Katsuya Eguchi says he hopes third-party developers only make use of the Wii U's touchscreen if it "makes sense" for the title they're working on.

Speaking in the latest issue of Edge, which is arriving with subscribers now and features an 8-page Wii U cover feature, Eguchi all but confirms developers aren't required to make use of the innovative screen - just like 3DS devs don't have to use 3D.

"I don't think it's necessary for any and all developers working on software for the Wii U to make use of all of its features, including the touchscreen," Eguschi-san told Edge.

"Regardless of whether it's a Nintendo developer or a third-party developer, if it makes sense for the game to make use of the touchscreen, I hope they take advantage of that. If it doesn't, I hope they don't.

"But it is one of the unique offerings among all of the consoles available out there, so if it does give a distinct flavour to the Nintendo version of a game, then I hope they utilise that to its fullest."

In the same interview Eguchi said Nintendo's very happy and excited about the first-person shooter possibilities on Wii U.

 

[antonz]

Where has Ideaman gone lately ?, maybe his sources aren't talking anymore after the guy who leaked the controller changes was fired.

Looks like we are done for leaks, ah well just over a week to go now ! .

At this point the leaks that could be talked about from people in the know are things that would pobably ruin surprises and fall into a more dangerous zone of possible discovery.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

It's not a requirement.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/309959/wii-u-developers-dont-have-to-use-touchscreen-nintendo/

I was talking more about streaming what's on the TV to the UPad. This seems to be talking more about using the UPad as a second screen. Of course I could just be reading it wrong and it's talking about both.

 

[bgassassin]

I was talking more about streaming what's on the TV to the UPad. This seems to be talking more about using the UPad as a second screen. Of course I could just be reading it wrong and it's talking about both.

I'd still say it's not because Vigil themselves said they didn't even bother with the stream till the last minute.

 

[HylianTom]

Alright! Time for a history check!

On the Monday before E3 2006, it was revealed that Nintendo had commissioned a survey regarding the Wii:

Shortly before that (~13 days before E3), the name change had been announced:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97127

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Imagine e3 gets cancelled and the industry stops.

 

[bgassassin]

Which takes us back to this survey.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37761622postcount=6817

Maybe $299 is becoming more likely after all.

 

[japtor]

Speculation of all kinds is what the WUST was founded on.

What I'm wondering is if there is a way they could efficiently do displacement maps without going for raw power and doing it through what's currently available.

Well I figure if there's standard known implementations of it (OGL/DX) then hardware can be tailored to it in some fashion rather than use general compute hardware.

I do look forward to seeing what kind of mainstream coverage the U gets, both positive and negative.

Also looking forward to news reports showing people lined-up around the country!

"It's a portable tablet home console!"
"It's a tablet that's anchored to a home console."

I still remember when the N64 came out.

I still remember getting the NES with two controllers, pack in games, and R.O.B.

I was talking more about streaming what's on the TV to the UPad. This seems to be talking more about using the UPad as a second screen. Of course I could just be reading it wrong and it's talking about both.

Well I'd just consider that another feature, so reading this:

"I don't think it's necessary for any and all developers working on software for the Wii U to make use of all of its features, including the touchscreen," Eguschi-san told Edge.

It sounds like another thing they could decide to use or not, while he threw out the touchscreen there as just an example of a feature to use/not use.

 

[Gahiggidy]

At this point, I don't want leaks. E3 is so close, I just want to surprised at the conference

I don't want leaks at this point, but reassurances would be be welcome. Vague insider reports of support from surprising names, that games looks amazing, the hardware produces eye- popping results that Nintendo has some cards they've yet to play.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

Imagine e3 gets cancelled and the industry stops.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

You know somebody is going to end up carting the console to a Starbucks and hooking it up to one of their complimentary outlets to play in the corner.

this is one of the reason I wanted one console to be able to use at least 4 uPads

I can see bars, sport bars, cafes, clubs using this for customers - the Wii had a wide uses in the mainstream

The Wii also had all the old retired community hyping it up... I think just this having the Wii name may see retirement homes upgrading to WiiU in the entertainment rooms

 

[bgassassin]

Well I figure if there's standard known implementations of it (OGL/DX) then hardware can be tailored to it in some fashion rather than use general compute hardware.

I think what's throwing me off is that I never brought up general compute hardware.

 

[Chaplain]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/309959/wii-u-developers-dont-have-to-use-touchscreen-nintendo/

"Regardless of whether it's a Nintendo developer or a third-party developer, if it makes sense for the game to make use of the touchscreen, I hope they take advantage of that. If it doesn't, I hope they don't."

I hope this also means Nintendo could possibly make the next Zelda with a classic controller type setup.

 

[japtor]

I think what's throwing me off is that I never brought up general compute hardware.

I'm tossing in normal shaders/standard GPUs as general compute hardware...granted they're optimized towards graphics but they're increasingly able to run random tasks these days. Like the "raw power" method I'm envisioning is just to throw more standard hardware at it, vs less power but aimed at particular tasks.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

I'm hoping that even though developers don't have to support streaming to the UPad that the entire base OS is designed to. So you can turn on the UPad in such as way that it doesn't even come on the TV just boots up the controller so you can check messages, chat, and whatever other base features end up being in the OS.

 

[Fantastical]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwhJs72qAjY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL403464E8AC222A8C

This interview reminded me that there was a separate event to show off Wii's OS features. Think that will happen for Wii U?

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwhJs72qAjY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL403464E8AC222A8C

This interview reminded me that there was a separate event to show off Wii's OS features. Think that will happen for Wii U?

Oh damn...totally forgot about Perrin Kaplan.

 

[antonz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwhJs72qAjY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL403464E8AC222A8C

This interview reminded me that there was a separate event to show off Wii's OS features. Think that will happen for Wii U?

I think they have to go for the kill this E3. They need to do more than just show games. They have to show why the Wii U is nextgen and how its going to compete with the other consoles services

 

[Penguin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwhJs72qAjY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL403464E8AC222A8C

This interview reminded me that there was a separate event to show off Wii's OS features. Think that will happen for Wii U?

Wow they both look so drained in that interview.

 

[Fantastical]

I think they have to go for the kill this E3. They need to do more than just show games. They have to show why the Wii U is nextgen and how its going to compete with the other consoles services

I would think so too, but Nintendo doesn't always think like that.

Oh damn...totally forgot about Perrin Kaplan.

I've been searching all these old IGN Wii videos and it's crazy the relationship Perrin and "Matty" have.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

I think they have to go for the kill this E3. They need to do more than just show games. They have to show why the Wii U is nextgen and how its going to compete with the other consoles services

I think their main focus needs to be on the OS and online capabilities. That's the main area that most gamers doubt them in. They need to flat out say that there will be no FCs.

EDIT: I remember back on the IGN boards everyone there used to think Matt and Perrin had a thing going on.

 

[bgassassin]

I'm tossing in normal shaders/standard GPUs as general compute hardware...granted they're optimized towards graphics but they're increasingly able to run random tasks these days. Like the "raw power" method I'm envisioning is just to throw more standard hardware at it, vs less power but aimed at particular tasks.

That's why it was throwing me off. I can't include them in that fashion especially since that's what would be tailored according to your previous post. But I was looking at the texture sampler and if it can be modified for efficient handling of displacement maps since it's unlikely the GPU will have a lot of them.

 

[ugoo18]

Nascar Wii-U Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZuURJKRfro&feature=related

Not sure if it's real or not.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

That's why it was throwing me off. I can't include them in that fashion especially since that's what would be tailored according to your previous post. But I was looking at the texture sampler and if it can be modified for efficient handling of displacement maps since it's unlikely the GPU will have a lot of them.

This is what I'm wondering about.

I agree that a hardware raytracer is not going to be there. Would you be able to fake GI/Radiosity though with a fixed function "thing" like a TEV 2.0? Is that something that could be built into hardware?

Like for instance could you have a fixed function sort of hardware solution, that says ok what geo is close to me, it's shader is this color, and based on distance adds a percentage of that color to it's self. I think I explained that right.

I know I'm screwing up some terms here so sorry about that, hopefully the idea comes across so it still makes sense to you.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

Nascar Wii-U Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZuURJKRfro&feature=related

Not sure if it's real or not.

It shows pretty much nothing so it's probably real.

 

[Roo]

Nascar Wii-U Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZuURJKRfro&feature=related

Not sure if it's real or not.

Looks legit.
I think the trailer is real
now, being for Wii U... that's a different story

 

[antonz]

Nascar Wii-U Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZuURJKRfro&feature=related

Not sure if it's real or not.

Trailer is real but its never been announced for Wii U so its a site/person running with the rumor release of it on WIi U and labeling generic trailer Wii U

 

[bgassassin]

This is what I'm wondering about.

Well I brought up a ray tracer/rasterizer hybrid as a joke because I came across that while searching for the other stuff I was looking up. Somehow that got more focus than my serious question.

I'd say that current pre-baked lighting is already doing fake GI/radiosity if I'm understanding what you are asking correctly.

Here are the posts that started this.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38184399&postcount=3989

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38213755&postcount=4880

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Which takes us back to this survey.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=6817

Maybe $299 is becoming more likely after all.

realistically, does nintendo have a choice? They could risk it by releasing it at 349 to milk the hardcore gamers and make some profits but the risk there is losing ALL momentum 3DS style . Also the competitors will be much cheaper.

If it's more than 299 I'll genuinely be surprised.

 

[StreetsAhead]

realistically, does nintendo have a choice? They could risk it by releasing it at 349 to milk the hardcore gamers and make some profits but the risk there is losing ALL momentum 3DS style . Also the competitors will be much cheaper.

If it's more than 299 I'll genuinely be surprised.

The "equivalent" in Yen, 29,990, is about the upper limit of what I could see being a successful mass-market price in Japan, too.

 

[bgassassin]

realistically, does nintendo have a choice? They could risk it by releasing it at 349 to milk the hardcore gamers and make some profits but the risk there is losing ALL momentum 3DS style . Also the competitors will be much cheaper.

If it's more than 299 I'll genuinely be surprised.

I think $349 is a breakeven point. $299 would definitely be a loss IMO.

 

[Boss Doggie]

You don't know this yet?

Wow, is that for real?

 

[antonz]

I think $349 is a breakeven point. $299 would definitely be a loss IMO.

Yeah I think they will be taking a bit of a loss and its one I dont think they have a choice on it. Microsoft and Sony do have a big advantage going into this fall with the price cut ability.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I'd say that current pre-baked lighting is already doing fake GI/radiosity if I'm understanding what you are asking correctly.

Right but I'm talking about it not being pre-baked. Like in the bird demo, there's color bleed between the bird and the tree right? Then when the bird leaves it's gone, and we get color bleed happening from other things. I don't think you can have change like that with a pre-baked map, though I could be wrong. I was just wondering if it's possible to have hardware that just compares proximity between pieces of geo and adds in some color from the one object to the other based on proximity. As another way of faking some radiosity.

I just don't know if that's something you could do in fixed function hardware, like can you have hardware that just does that. So it's not bouncing photons around, but we're getting another type of faked approximation. With out having to make pre-baked maps ahead of time, letting it be more interactive.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

Just got done re-watching Nintendo's 2006 E3 Conference and there's one thing I really really hope they stop doing when marketing the Wii U. Those stupid overacted trailers/commercials with people diving behind couches and jumping around the room. Make them straight and to the point with gameplay and if you need to show how a feature works on the UPad just cut to a CG one floating and demonstrate it there or explain it with text.

 

[bgassassin]

Yeah I think they will be taking a bit of a loss and its one I dont think they have a choice on it. Microsoft and Sony do have a big advantage going into this fall with the price cut ability.

I think it would benefit them more when compared to PS4 and Xbox 3 and establishing a base than whatever Sony or MS does with their current consoles.

Right but I'm talking about it not being pre-baked. Like in the bird demo, there's color bleed between the bird and the tree right? Then when the bird leaves it's gone, and we get color bleed happening from other things. I don't think you can have change like that with a pre-baked map, though I could be wrong. I was just wondering if it's possible to have hardware that just compares proximity between pieces of geo and adds in some color from the one object to the other based on proximity. As another way of faking some radiosity.

I just don't know if that's something you could do in fixed function hardware, like can you have hardware that just does that. So it's not bouncing photons around, but we're getting another type of faked approximation. With out having to make pre-baked maps ahead of time, letting it be more interactive.

To me it would seem that either they would go for actual GI/Radiosity or stick to what's used already. It would seem like a waste of transistors and silicon to have a portion dedicated to faking those things.

 

[antonz]

I think it would benefit them more when compared to PS4 and Xbox 3 and establishing a base than whatever Sony or MS does with their current consoles.



To me it would seem that either they would go for actual GI/Radiosity or stick to what's used already. It would seem like a waste of transistors and silicon to have a portion dedicated to faking those things.

That is also a key part of it. They need to offer an affordable console that people are willing to make the jump on and create a userbase. Particularly a userbase that likes core games

 

[Oddduck]

Just got done re-watching Nintendo's 2006 E3 Conference and there's one thing I really really hope they stop doing when marketing the Wii U. Those stupid overacted trailers/commercials with people diving behind couches and jumping around the room. Make them straight and to the point with gameplay and if you need to show how a feature works on the UPad just cut to a CG one floating and demonstrate it there or explain it with text.

I think the overacting in the E3 trailers is what helped sell Wii's controller technology to the casuals in 2006.

The casuals loved the idea of jumping around and swinging their remotes around.

It was the hardcore who hated the idea.

 

[japtor]

That's why it was throwing me off. I can't include them in that fashion especially since that's what would be tailored according to your previous post. But I was looking at the texture sampler and if it can be modified for efficient handling of displacement maps since it's unlikely the GPU will have a lot of them.

Going back and reading the posts again...I think the main difference is that I'm thinking of it in terms of existing standards vs another custom Nintendo thing. I think blu's post quoted here gets at what I'm thinking of:

Surely Thraktor is absolutely correct to say that whatever nintendo might have come up with, amd & nv must have already considered, or even implemented, into their current/future architectures. But let's not forget what nintendo are bargaining for here: they are not ordering some unheard-of tech integrated in an off-the-shelf part, no - they are bargaining for the best bang for transistor. To translate that into simple terms, you can think of nintendo cherry-picking from the amd gardens to a fruit basket that best suites nintendo's fruit salad (aha! and you thought bad metaphors were only cars-related ; ) What does that mean? Not any alien tech, that's for sure.

Granted that doesn't really answer your question but I don't think it's too crazy to think that AMD would know enough about whatever graphics techniques that they could possibly specialize hardware for them (at least in the realm of tesselation and mapping techniques that are already in use). Also just read that other post about Larrabee again, brings up something else I just thought of earlier, I wonder if there's a potential patent/IP minefield when it comes to this stuff. And if nothing else there's this part of the quote:

The key difference between Larrabee and all previous graphics chips is programmability. The latest DirectX 10 GPUs from AMD and NVIDIA may be much more flexible and programmable than their progenitors, but they retain a wide range of fixed function units for texture sampling, rasterization, geometry setup and more. Only the shader units are truly programmable and even those are much less flexible than a general purpose CPU.

I guess they could load up heavily on those units vs whatever a usual GPU would have balance wise, like maybe a powerhouse at texture sampling (or whatever features) but with relatively weak programmability.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

I think the overacting in the E3 trailers is what helped sell Wii's controller technology to the casuals in 2006.

The casuals loved the idea of jumping around and swinging their remotes around.

It was the hardcore who hated the idea.

Totally agree here the casuals ate that shit up. I think now though with Wii, Kinect and Move out there those commercials do little for selling a console or game to casual players.

I'd like to see Nintendo move away from that type of marketing for the Wii U but I honestly doubt they will. Now they will probably focus on the NFC features in their commercials.

 

[StreetsAhead]

I can already imagine the "Wii vs Wii U graphics comparison" threads


A precursor:

(bonus lighting fx)

I mean, this difference alone is pretty neat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wruBogE-AHE (Twilight Armogohma battle on Wii)
&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Lf4uVuE50 (Wii U tech demo)

Just remembered I wanted to respond to this post. That Link model is almost exactly the same in both shots - obviously based on the TP model.
Just think how amazing it *could* look when built from the ground up.
*drools*

 

[Gahiggidy]

That room wasn't actually in Twilight Princess, was it?

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Let's just hope the actual spider battle gameplay is better than TP's version. Hopefully the action will match the graphics.

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

That room wasn't actually in Twilight Princess, was it?

I don't remember seeing it myself. I'm pretty sure it was made just for the demo. I think they just used TP link so people could easily see the graphical jump.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

That room wasn't actually in Twilight Princess, was it?

Nope.

 

[japtor]

Let's just hope the actual spider battle gameplay is better than TP's version. Hopefully the action will match the graphics.

"And now a new Zelda...presented by Team Ninja!"

 

[CrAzYLeGzLU]

"And now a new Zelda...presented by Team Ninja!"

Poor Zelda...having to heft those double D's around...

 

[kami_sama]

"And now a new Zelda...presented by Team Ninja!"

After the backlash of Metroid Other M it would be the worst thing they could do.

 

[bgassassin]

That is also a key part of it. They need to offer an affordable console that people are willing to make the jump on and create a userbase. Particularly a userbase that likes core games

Especially if it does well enough to blur the lines of the graphical differences between it and the other two console coming out.

Going back and reading the posts again...I think the main difference is that I'm thinking of it in terms of existing standards vs another custom Nintendo thing. I think blu's post quoted here gets at what I'm thinking of:

Granted that doesn't really answer your question but I don't think it's too crazy to think that AMD would know enough about whatever graphics techniques that they could possibly specialize hardware for them (at least in the realm of tesselation and mapping techniques that are already in use). Also just read that other post about Larrabee again, brings up something else I just thought of earlier, I wonder if there's a potential patent/IP minefield when it comes to this stuff. And if nothing else there's this part of the quote:

I guess they could load up heavily on those units vs whatever a usual GPU would have balance wise, like maybe a powerhouse at texture sampling (or whatever features) but with relatively weak programmability.

Yeah I believe we've talked in the past about the GPU having more TMUs or ROPs than what you would see in a traditional GPU that would have the same amount of shaders. Though I don't know if doing so would be something that would be a "Nintendo-patented" feature. And at the same time I don't see an issue with other patents if Nintendo has their own for whatever these features might be.