BeautifulMemory
Member
I think you are thinking we are talking about the author of the video. I am responding to Ezikeal's assessment about how terrible DMC4's design is
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DmC E3 Demo Walkthrough - Mission + Boss
- Thread starter lowhighkang_LHK
- Start date
What bums me out the most is pressing forward on the stick twice for stinger. That is always a horribly inaccurate and uncomfortable maneuver to do on an analog stick. Stinger is my bread and butter mayne. :/
Guns being even more usless than before and the autolock seeming awful is also not good. Right now really wishing they'd copy Bayonetta's option of having both manual and autolock. But I guess the whole angel/demon thing just fucks with the control layout in a major way.
Guns being even more usless than before and the autolock seeming awful is also not good. Right now really wishing they'd copy Bayonetta's option of having both manual and autolock. But I guess the whole angel/demon thing just fucks with the control layout in a major way.
But you wouldn't say that the game is not too easy with items, would you? Because it is, doesn't matter if it's a cheat code, someone said it's not that easy even with items, the guy showed it actually is, period. No one's claiming to be so skilled they don't need to move, only that the game with items is so easy he doesn't need to move, it's not the same at all.
Now, if the person who posted this video here is the one who made it, then it would change completely, otherwise, it's pretty nonsense to hate on the video.
I'm only talking about the "this video is a joke" response, if someone's using this video to prove that the DMC4 design is bad, then this person is a joke, the video is still legit for it's purpose.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
The manual lock system in Bayonetta worked fine. DMC1 had a manual lock system too, since pressing R1 didn't really give you control on who to target other than whatever the closest enemy was. It's main benefit was that it sort of cut the control plane allowing you to shift the analog stick in whatever direction without changing plane.
I think it could also be a matter of DMC fans needing to get used to things. If you notice, those who play the game without an extensive DMC background really have no qualms with the difference between auto and manual lock. The concept of pressing the analog stick in the direction of which enemy you want to attack seems natural to them. Not to those with a lot of DMC experience. Not going to lie, it's going to bother me a shit ton too when I realize pressing R1 isn't getting me my stingers and hightimes. DMC fans are use to pressing the analog stick in whatever direction they feel without necessarily targeting a different enemy because you had R1 depressed. Now, that's not the case. It would be a like lot God of War and Bayonetta (if you're rolling with it's manual lock-on)
Exactly.
I actually meant to say that posting that video as an example of anything other than you can use items to beat DMC4 was a joke. Sorry if I wasn't clear before, I just didn't want to invest anymore brain cells talking about DMC videos where items are involved.
I don't see why do forward twice as well, they could do like forward + hold Y, and drive being hold Y without the forward input. They can't think people are so stupid they cannot press buttons without moving the stick or holding them for some time.
But I disagree that it's the stances fault, it is a pretty good design IMO, the problem is again thinking people are so stupid they cannot learn to hold the left trigger and press LB at the same time so they need to give us 2 dodge buttons and no lock-on.
Tameem did said that "no one missed the lock-on so far", so maybe, just maybe, now they'll see that they just asked the wrong person if more people report the auto-lock is bad.
LMAO that was actually a godlike resply.
BeautifulMemory
Member
Gbraga said:
These two quotes from ezekial, which read like this video was supposed to be some proof of his assessment, of how horrible DMC4's design is, enemy/boss and overall wise - but it's not that, hence why the video is a joke. At least this is how I take it
I don't know, if the auto-lock works perfectly fine, then ok, but the report on CU says it doesn't. That's what I'm worried about.
They wanna get rid of hard lock-on? Give us a perfect auto-lock and I'll play before criticizing it. Give us a shitty auto-lock and WTF ARE YOU DOING?
FateBreaker
Member
It looks fantastic. I was never in the "hate" group.
I'm in love with this game from day one, but when they first announced it was by Ninja Theory I was like "Ok, it will be a great game, probably a better game than any other DMC, but the combat will suck, it will be a completely different focus". But since The Fight video when they showed the combat and it didn't seemed to suck, then I started to expect good combat as well, so I'm a bit worried >_>
Eh, it's not about learning, that is simply an extremely uncomfortable position to put your fingers in. I have DMC4's Blue Rose set to R2 on my DS3(to have it always charged to level 3), and my middle finger always hurts after even 15 minutes of game time. And in this game you'd have to use both middle fingers and index fingers in a constant basis. No, screw that.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Report on CU? Oh you mean that post by a capcom unity member on the unity forums. He also did mention what I think to be the two most important aspects, was the game felt responsive and it was fun to play.
He did have problems with the different god of war esque targeting system and the trickster on crack evade system. With the 8 or so months left till release hopefully these balance things will be addressed.
There also have been numerous reports saying the targeting system is fine.
I think it's just a matter of hardened DMC vets needing to readjust to a staple they've gotten accustomed to for over 10+ years. That, and what does all this matter? It's very likely we'll get a demo anyways. See for yourself if it's a matter of merely getting used to it.
Eh, it's not about learning, that is simply an extremely uncomfortable position to put your fingers in. I have DMC4's Blue Rose set to R2 on my DS3(to have it always charged to level 3), and my middle finger always hurts after even 15 minutes of game time. And in this game you'd have to use both middle fingers and index fingers in a constant basis. No, screw that.
Yup. I've already explained it down to the roots of basic anatomy as to why people cramp up when they play like that. I'm not surprised NT went with two evade buttons to avoid finger and forearm fatigue often associated with the "claw hand" grip.
Eh, it's not about learning, that is simply an extremely uncomfortable position to put your fingers in. I have DMC4's Blue Rose set to R2 on my DS3(to have it always charged to level 3), and my middle finger always hurts after even 15 minutes of game time. And in this game you'd have to use both middle fingers and index fingers in a constant basis. No, screw that.
I know, it does hurt, but you wouldn't have to keep the triggers pressed all the time in this game, I think it wouldn't be that much of a burden.
And even if it was, they could just let us change the button layout, so we could use like LT = Angel Stance, LB = Demon Stance, RT = Dodge, RB = Lock-on. I can see why they need the stances to be on opposite sides on the default control scheme, it makes a lot of sense really, but for people looking for a more hardcore take on the game it would be easy to adjust to a more comfortable button layout. I don't know, I wasn't too upset about the lack of a lock-on at first, I would probably agree with you a few days ago, but if the auto-lock is indeed terrible, than I can't help but think that it would be better to have that hurting finger one more time instead of a bad lock-on mechanism.
The guy on the forum clearly has played way more action games than just DMC games. Him saying that the soft lock on being more like Batman Arkham Asylum/City would be an IMPROVEMENT is alarming to hear.
DMC fans have no problem with different combat engines, they play various different action games like NG, Godhand, Bayonetta, GoW etc. I can adjust to any combat system and will play it the way it's supposed to be played. If something is off then I will judge it based on that game's mechanics. That is exactly what this guy is doing here, he was clearly fully adjusted to the DmC combat system and was doing stuff in the game that I didn't even think of (using the Angel Evade to get behind enemies). He figured out the timing for the parries too.
DMC fans have no problem with different combat engines, they play various different action games like NG, Godhand, Bayonetta, GoW etc. I can adjust to any combat system and will play it the way it's supposed to be played. If something is off then I will judge it based on that game's mechanics. That is exactly what this guy is doing here, he was clearly fully adjusted to the DmC combat system and was doing stuff in the game that I didn't even think of (using the Angel Evade to get behind enemies). He figured out the timing for the parries too.
Yes, I was pleased to see that he thought the game was really responsive and fun, even the stinger part I was like "ok, it's probably him not used to it", but the auto-lock has me worried simply because it cannot be bad, no matter what lol
Also lol @ trickster on crack
I really hope NT would give us some gameplay footage from that "DMC pro" they had testing the game, from what they said in one interview, the guy was really enjoying himself, I don't understand why not release gameplay footage from him, or even a more in-depth hands on so he can tell us more about the combat.
But yeah, you're right, the only thing that can be considered a fact is the amount of invincibility the evade has, but they'll probably tweak it before the final build.
I do hope they give us a pretty early demo so they can still take feedback before the game's release.
Well, but he does says that it would be "fantastic", not just "better", so he thinks it's a fantastic auto-lock, so I wouldn't get that alarmed by it.
And about the parries, I was pleased to read that the timing is pretty strict, but from the gameplay footage we have it really doesn't seem to be, there was stuff like mashing resulting in parry a lot of times, so I don't know...
The Trickster on crack comment has to be a joke. The guy clearly explained how the dashes and dodges were NOT like Trickster's Star Dash. You can get out of the air dash at any point and it has very limited i-frames making it a poor choice for evasion. The angel dodge seems to be like a "phase" dash and the normal ground dodge has way less recovery and more i-frames than a Trickster dash (ie way easier to abuse).
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
....hence trickster on crack...
I never said it was horrible, just not that impressive. You have my quote, you see me say it.
EDIT: I see now that there's a few responses to my earlier posts. Give me a few minutes to respond to them.
You can't link multiple dodges together and the angel dodge isn't a proper teleport. The air dash is also nothing like Star Dash. There isn't a wall run either that I have seen.
In what way is this Trickster on crack? The fact that it has a low risk/high reward ground dodge? Trickster's ground dash was balanced around the fact that while it had a lot of starting invulnerability it also had a lot of recovery after the 3rd dash in the case of DMC3.
The new dodge is basically just the DMC evasive roll with less recovery, more distance and more i-frames. Only it's a single button input so the execution requirement is even lower to pull it off.
The MAIN problem that I and the guy who wrote the impressions have with the ground dodge is that it's clearly not balanced even within DmC's OWN combat mechanics. Why would anyone use air dodge, air dash, parry, angel dodge/demon dodge when the normal vanilla ground dodge is so superior to other evasive/defensive options? It's a balance issue that should be addressed.
While I do agree the ground dodge must be nerfed, I can see myself using a lot the neutral air dodge to evade Stinger's shot without losing my combo even if the ground dodge is still broken in the final game.
Not that impressive based on a video of someone using items to beat bosses?
You claimed that Poison at least "encourages you to keep moving". There's no indication that Poison can't be beaten by stationary spamming and item usage aside from the forced context sensitive grapples. Frankly, I'd be surprised if someone couldn't beat Poison by literally staying right in its face after a few hours with the demo.
Berial encourages you to keep moving, too, and it doesn't need to use gimmicky platforms to do so. I don't really see how Poison is any more of an impressive design than Berial at all.
I think it's very valid. DMD mode is supposed to offer challenge and a true test of skill, yet he was able to play through the combat in that mission without moving and just hammering on the recovery items. Sure, the method he used probably scored pretty low in style points, but he was still able to do it. Which I find disturbing. If it had any proper design and balancing to it, then he should've been torn apart.
I understand what you mean, but the increase in challenge is supposed to up your game and skill. The harder it is, the better you play. Potentially, anyway. If you're not challenging yourself, with a game that should be relentless and adaptive to your play style, then what's the point?
Again, like i've said many times over; DMC4 is not a bad game. It's better than average, but ultimately, to me, it's a very lazy game. It's clearly resting on its laurels with the combat and it's not offering much in the way of proper challenge.
As for the complaints about the DmC E3 demo. I'm glad we're learning about them now. One of the benefits of doing a public demo is getting a feel for how people respond to it. Plus, they're spending the rest of the development time refining it, so it should be better once the game is out. Hopefully, anyway. I'm glad we learning about the issues now, instead of next year.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
I would imagine it's circle square. It only makes sense given the control schemes and the concept of the move.
What needs to be done about the roll then - is I'm glad they have i-frames. So hopefully they can balance it appropriately where it isn't too much or too little. I think that since the game is already made, they can spend the rest of development on balance, which is what is general done in the last quarter of development anyway.
This is not, nor was it ever, an issue that is exclusive to DMC. It's more an issue with games in general.
99% of all games can be beaten on the hardest difficulty with braindead mashing, and abuse of items or flexible checkpoints.
This makes a lot more sense to me.
Yeah, does make more sense to be 360 + Square.
So we could also have 360 + /\ (and equivalents for Osiris and Arbiter, plus other weapons) as well, and also a different ability for forward twice + square then...
They still didn't show the charge /\ with Arbiter, did they? With rebellion you get drive and with Osiris an area launcher, but I don't recall seeing the Arbiter version.
Lazy? No. There are design issues but DMC4 is far from lazy. The back-tracking was more a time issue as well as Dante's balance. But if you call DMC4 lazy, then you do not understand the depth of the combat. It's an unbelievably deep combat system which unfortunately is not tapped into enough in single player.
DMC is also about setting your own challenges. I do this in all action games. Like not using R2 + L2 in GoW on chaos. Or working on 100% aerial no damage Nero on Berial. [I was practicing that about a month ago but got distracted. Maybe will go back to it.] That's the brilliance of great games IMO. Replay-value for me if not just difficulty settings but having the depth to make my own difficulties. And DMC4 does that well. Though obviously DMC3 does it better. That game is so godlike it is ridiculous.
[] + /\ or [] + O could work too for Rainstorm.
I am pretty sure he was talking about lazy in terms of the level design, the story, the unlockables and general content in the game (number of weapons/moves compared to the last game) which would definitely be true. I don't think anyone here would really state that DMC4's combat is lazy.
He said it was "resting on its laurels with the combat." I disagree.
lol, I kind of expected the video to be like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTqjpFWP20w&t=23s
Doesn't that mean that he thinks all it really had going for it was gameplay.
Had to look it up cause I wasn't familiar with the idiom.
dictionary.com said:
rest on one's laurels
Fig. to stop trying because one is satisfied with one's past achievements. Despite our success, this is no time to rest on our laurels. We rested on our laurels too long. Our competitors took away a lot of our business.
Yeah. He saying it was a lazy game had good combat which they were content with and winged everything else right?
I read it as they stopped trying to push or innovate the combat because they'd gotten comfortable with the previous template and success of DMC3... thus, were lazy. "Resting on laurel's with the combat" makes it clear to me, anyway.
If you combine the terms it becomes "regarding the combat, Capcpom stopped trying because they were satisfied with their past achievements." Maybe he wrote it wrong, IDK.
^^^
That's how I read it. But Ezekial has been doing this DMC4 criticism thing every DmC thread. Like trying to validate the new titles existence or something... It's never reads constructively even if the wording suggests that is the aim.
Let me clarify; the combat itself is still great. It's the most refined in the series. But in regards to back and forth I had with Dahbomb, I felt the approach they had with making the boss fights more accessible (which isn't bad, per se), hampered parts of the experience. Also, I feel that they didn't experiment more and try some more new things. I'm not saying the combat is lazy in general, but certain important aspects of it (a big one being AI) are.
The rest of the game is still lazy, though. I'm not backing down from that.
The rest of the game is still lazy, though. I'm not backing down from that.
How important is combat to you? You regress back to DMC often trying to open up some gap. But you seem more focused on narrative, environments, and platforming then the actual core of the gameplay. I'm just curious because I personally don't criticize things I don't understand well.
These threads have just gotten weird TBH. Everyone is doing this "role thing." Like a bunch of politicians. lol
retcon:
Saw the second post. Eh, that's fine I guess. I don't want to put more energy into this.
BeautifulMemory
Member
Here it comes! Max's impression on the demo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpP1XbKym7E&feature=g-u-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpP1XbKym7E&feature=g-u-u
Isn't Max practically Capcom PR at this point?
BeautifulMemory
Member
No it does look a bit that way but he calls BS out when he sees it (Like SFxT).
I seem to remember he doesn't really know DMC at all, but in the video he says he has experiences with it - not to mention he is good at Marvel, so I think his feedback is important
and I thought his (well, not him, but his friends') impression on RE6 demo was pretty fair as well
He may be, but he did bash SF X Tekken a lot for it's problems
And he likes it. It's his game of E3.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The combat mechanics may in fact be solid, although I'm personally not a fan. But if the enemy design, AI, combat arena design and balance aren't tuned to be better than the floor demo the combat will still suck, and suck hard.
About enemy design they said there will be a lot more enemies in the game. Sure, they could be lying, but that's all we have right now.
AI I'm not too worried because they probably have the easiest settings since it's a demo for all kinds of audiences, and even so a lot of people were dying in the boss fight and some of them didn't even finished it because it was "too hard".
About the balance I'm worried about as well, and I would also ask for a better camera, I don't think they need to keep that part of the DMC-DNA lol
It probably wasn't on easy, since they admitted that they're fine tuning the earlier difficulties in relation to the hardest difficulty.
I sure hope they have other enemy designs because the current baddies are all from the Silent Hill Reject club.