While I like the N64 controller for what it is and felt compelled by it compared to the original controller of the PS1 due to the analog stick, I always thought the Dual Shock revision surpassed it in every way. The stick on the N64 controller wasn't precise enough, which I always felt like it restrained my capability at aiming with good accuracy in games like Jet Force Gemini, Turok, Golden Eye or Perfect Dark. The Diagonals are stiff. You have to over-exaggerate your movement for it to register as a diagonal movement, otherwise you will end up moving horizontally or vertically. Even when slightly moving the stick up or down, I have to correct and compensate every time because the movement ends up being not enough or too much. This was the exact same thing on every single original N64 controller I've bought and me and the people I've played with back in the days thought the exact same thing about this. I liked the stick but surely it was something that could easily be upgraded and Sony did just that with the DS. Much more precise stick and clearly more robust too.
... Not precise enough? What? Before they wear down, N64 analog sticks are as precise as anything. They do have a unique feel, but have absolutely no precision problems (unless worn down), certainly. I have no idea what you're talking about...
I also am a fan of the 6 buttons layout for fighting games. Excluding the genre though, bumper buttons are just as good to me. Can't remember of any game on the system where I thought that 6 buttons combination was an advantage over the DS.
Obviously most people don't care much about the loss of 6 button gamepads, given that no main controller from the last two gens, except for the original Xbox pad and even that one was modified later, has a standard 6-face-button layout, but I, at least, do.
On that note, I use one of those 6-face-buttons-and-normal-dpad Street Fighter Anniversary controllers with my PS1 (or 2) pretty much whenever I'm playing games that don't support analog. It's such a fantastic controller, I really love it. Six face buttons and a d-pad, on the Playstation? Awesome! Sure, in quality it's not quite up to the par of, say, a Saturn pad (model 2 or 3D), but still, it's good enough.
The D-Pad really is stiff but after hours of Killer Instinct Gold and MKT it got much more loose, which ended up as a better experience. I like the D-Pad on my N64 controllers. But I worked for it.
I didn't mind it a little stiff, but yeah, it loosens with use.
Other thing I didn't like was that many games had functions bind to L or the D-pad. I'm not talking about dramatic functions that you constantly use every other second, but for example in Turok 2 in order to zoom-in with the tek bow you have to press right on the D-pad. This is quite annoying to switch your left hand from the middle to the left side every time you need to access those functions. There are more examples I can give if needed. I've played around 10 N64 games tonight and I remember accessing the left side many times, which reduced my response time and felt handicapped as a result. Of course, this is not the case for most N64 games as they've been made with this restriction in mind. But this exactly what I would call it. A restriction. Which reduce the number of buttons you can quickly press at any time.
That's kind of odd, I've played a great many N64 games and only very, VERY rarely have to touch the d-pad or L button at all. Are you looking for just the games that require you to actually use it, or something? Most don't. N64 games with important functions you need to regularly use on L or the d-pad are extremely rare.
I believe the industry adopted the Dual Shock design simply because it is more ergonomic, versatile and productive. You can access every button on the controller with both hands planted on both sides. It is also much better at handling the button layout caprice of everyone due to accessibility. I feel very comfortable holding a N64 controller, but I can say the same thing for any controller similar to a DS design.
I really do think that they adopted it because the Playstation sold well, and because the idea of having a second stick for the camera was eventually agreed upon as a good one, even if it was irrelevant (and probably not really thought of) when the PS1 dual analog controllers had originally been released.
As for being able to access every button, you can do that in other controllers that are better than anything from Sony too, like the Saturn 3D Controller, or Microsoft's first Xbox controller (the large one)... but later on both Sega and Nintendo somewhat Playstation-ized their controllers (four face buttons, etc.), probably because they thought the market expected a more Playstation-like design because it'd been the winner, much like how most 2nd gen controllers are copies of the Atari 2600 controller, or how the NES is the prototype for most controllers since it. People emulate success, whether or not it's really better (yes, the NES controller is better than those 2nd gen things, though, so at least that one was an improvement.).
I understand the love the N64 controller receives by some and I admit it had a certain appeal, but to me the DS design is simply superior and history backs this opinion.
I think Sony's controllers are all pretty bad... terrible dpads, annoying button layout (just use numbers or letters, not your silly symbols...), it took me years to get over how much I hated dual-shoulder-button designs (I don't really mind it anymore, but I'd still prefer one per side if I had a choice... Xbox versus PS2, for instance.), I dislike the pressure-sensitive buttons on the PS2 that cause far more trouble than benefit (pressure sensitive face buttons should never, EVER be used as a speed control mechanism in racing games, but there are a few PS2 games that do that! It's horrible...), as I've said I've never loved dual-stick controller designs versus six face button ones, I dislike Sony's "dpad above buttons" left side... oh, and the controller's a bit small too. I prefer a slightly larger controller. The analog sticks lack Nintendo's eight-sided bound, too, making it more difficult to go in a straight line than it is on Nintendo; Nintendo has the better design. I dislike how free Playstation sticks are, too. They have almost no resistance, it's not a good feel...
I know that that's all just my opinion, but regardless, as I've said before, It think it's sales that was what gave the Dual Shock its victory, not design. And over time Playstation fans have convinced themselves that it's actually the great controller that it never was.
It's an okay game, but it's nowhere near as good as DKR or Mickey's Racing USA...
As most of all the people that owned both systems.
The problem with N64 library is that most of their top games where 3d plataformers, besides no matter how powerfull it was compared to PS1 people in general never noticed that difference or didnt care.
No, the N64 has lots of top games that aren't 3d platformers... and yes, people did notice, and care, that it is more powerful.
For me N64 best games :
Zeldas , MARIO KART, Perfect Dark, 007 , Turok 1.
There where also lame games as Quest 64.
... What, as if the PS1 isn't one of the all-time leaders for having mountains of terrible games?
Ah...
How can you possibly know this? Why cant you keep these comments on a personal level instead of broad statements you cant prove?
I owned both (still do) and I look back more fondly at my time spent with the N64
He knows it because he thinks it, and so it's a fact, right?
Shadowman is just an ugly ass game no matter where you run it.
I think it looks pretty good, particularly in high res mode... it is set in swamps and such, but it makes them look about as nice as could be expected on N64. It's definitely a game that requires a lot of time to play, because of its large size and somewhat nonlinear, confusing world, but if you do spend the time with it it is good. It's a game I've always meant to play more than I have, but what I have played of it has certainly been impressive.
This is why I think it was a revolutionary change, because such design was much ahead of its time. The introduction of the second analog stick was essential to play fps games, but this became apparent only when HALO opened the way to FPS on consoles. All current controllers own to the design of the Dual shock.
I don't need to mention how wrong that Halo comment is, it's already been very thoroughly proven that Goldeneye was that game that popularized FPSes on consoles, not Halo.
Even on that though, I do think it's worth noting that there had been some FPSes before Goldeneye, namely Doom and some of its clones, and Turok 1 of course which sold well too. Goldeneye wasn't the first successful console FPS. It was the first console FPS megahit, yeah, but not the first one released, or the first success.
Anyway though, on the point of dual analog, of course, as has been said (by me and others) the N64 C-buttons are the same thing, but buttons instead of a stick. It serves the same purpose. There are several controllers with two sticks that predate the Dual Shock and N64 controller, though.
First, there's the Nintendo Virtual Boy controller from 1995. Two d-pads, for better 3d control, or for additional functions in games. It's a good design and works well. The system has two triggerlike buttons too, before the N64 (though of course, you can find some triggerlike designs on old 2nd gen things like the Colecovision Super Action controller and an analog stick on the 5200 one, but Nintendo popularized those with the N64 controller, at least, even if they didn't truly invent them.)
Anyway, getting back on topic, second, there's the
Playstation Analog Joystick from 1996 (first shown in '95, sold in '96), Sony's twin-joystick flight stick for the PS1. The first Playstation Analog Gamepad had two sticks because it was backwards compatible with the joystick, so it had to have two sticks on it too. So why did the joystick have two sticks? Well, for better 3d control, I presume. Or at least, that has to have been the idea; I don't know about the joystick, but the Analog Gamepad and Dualshock don't have many games at all that actually support both sticks relevantly, not until the PS2 of course.
Of course, games were held back by the fact that they had to support the digital controller too, so you had to have some way for the game to work on that controller as well, for PS1 games... only Ape Escape actually requires the Dual Shock, and even there its use of the right stick isn't exactly amazing. It's nothing the N64 c-buttons couldn't have done, I think.
Oh, for one third pre-Dual Shock twin-stick controller, Sega's Mission Stick joystick for the Saturn, released in 1995, has only one stick by default, but it has a hidden twin-stick mode where if you buy two sticks and attach both to one base unit (the sticks and central base can separate), you can create a twinstick. Only one game, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, supports it in twinstick mode, but it does exist.
So much wrong here.
First of all, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark were the first dual analogue console FPS games by way of the two controller setups available. And the N64 controller already had a second dpad as the c-button section, so the idea of a 'camera stick' was predated by that, and put to great use in the N64's many hit FPS games. PS1 games were still doing crazy stuff like shoulder button strafing and face button shooting before the N64 came along with the c-buttons and trigger.
Secondly, the GCN, XB, 360, Wii (nunchuck) 3DS and Wii U controllers all have the left stick in the primary (upper) position, not in the secondary position like the PS controller.
Yeah, pretty much the only thing that copy's Sony's design are some PC gamepads (not xinput, I mean, directinput ones). No consoles do.
The GC controller was shown and released first of those, so I guess it's the originator of the dual stick functions of modern console controller in all non-Sony consoles. And once again, the c-stick was an evolution of the c-butons, so really it's the N64 controller again as the source. The modern controller is therefore irrefutably the SNES controller with the N64's innovations (analogue stick, distinct camera controls, trigger, rumble) added.
And I love how you say 'Halo opened the way to FPS on consoles' when Goldeneye sold more than Halo (9 million to 7 million), and was released more than four years earlier. If you mean originator of dual analogue, Goldeneye once again. And if you mean the first console FPS game to use dual analogue on a single controller (a very specific case), then that would be Timesplitters, by many of the Goldeneye team no less!
Goldeneye plus PD did sell less than Halo 1 plus Halo 2 because of how much less PD sold than GE, but yes, Goldeneye sold several million more copies than Halo 1, that's certainly true. And an important fact, too. Goldeneye was the game that really began moving FPSes over to consoles, even if PC ones were still better at that point and for years afterwards.
I think Sony just got ridiculously lucky with the Dual Shock design, they realised their controller was crap for 3d games and literally hacked on the N64's analogue stick and rumble to their existing SNES based design, and added a second stick for whatever reason (balance/symmetry?) that at the time they had no idea what to do with (no Ape Escape's gimmicky use of it doesn't count). Years later and on another console altogether the second analogue stick became indispensable. Not foresight - luck.
I agree with much of what you say here, but on the last point, I think you're forgetting about the Playstation Analog Joystick; see directly above, my reply to the last post. That joystick explains why the gamepad has two analog sticks. Also recall the VB controller too, as mentioned above. The idea that a second stick/pad could help with 3d games did exist by the mid '90s, and before the N64.
But yeah, I do agree that the Analog Gamepad/Dualshock are just mediocre hacks of the initially-poor PS1 controller, with those sticks pasted onto a similar shell. And yeah, some luck was involved in its adoption, certainly; had it been the N64 or Saturn that had won, we probably would have seen dual-stick designs anyway, but I think they would have looked differently from the ones we got, because people wouldn't have all wanted to copy Sony because of its victory.
Although the modern controller still requires the player to have 4 thumbs for everything to be usable at once. The Wii remote + nunchuk setup is the only controller to have mostly gotten around this.
Good point, this is true.
