The best way to set yourself apart is with exclusive software.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
The best way to set yourself apart is with exclusive software.
Glorified G
Member
umm, huh? What has no gpu? Did you read the op?
Chittagong
Gold Member
iceatcs
Junior Member
I think it was planning to have BC on old system plan (that crazy 16 cores). I suspect now they have to drop off because they change to AMD.
I believe we are fucked who want only one powerful console. Look like next gen will be 2 systems are very same than 360 vs PS3.
Its GB.
How do you know? The source might have written it that way to make it sound beefier than it is..and 256GB storage is wierd, but 32GB isn't.
Though if a devkit comes with 8Gb/1GB of RAM that isn't even an improvement over PS3 devkits.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
How does this compare to Durango or Wii u? If Durango is significantly more powerful than ps4 and it shows in multiplatform titles, Sony is finished IMO. The only thing that could redeem them is a controller more gimmicky than the upad or kinect 2.0.(and I doubt that will happen.) They can't get the dudebro/core because their console isn't strong enough and they can't get the casuals because their controller isn't gimmicky enough. Not to mention besides gran tourismo their first party titles aren't known system sellers. Launching the "middle" console would be the worst thing to do IMO. They could have the most powerful console and not cost 599.
jeff_rigby
Banned
3D and 1080P are going to be supported by Over The Air in the US in 2013. Till that point only blu-ray supported 1080P@24hz 3-D. Some cable and satellite boxes supported a half mode 3-D and games supported a 720P 3-D. The point is that 3-D will have more support going forward so it's premature to call it. Sony and others released 1080P and 3-D in advance of it becoming a standard and are releasing Smart TVs that can support OTA 3-D and 1080P as well as XTV in advance of standards that will be in place in 2013.
The PS3 with access to a tuner or video stream is able to support everything a 2011 Smart TV can and it's a ~2001 design released in 2006. The Xbox 360 to sell cheaper does/did not support 1080P and as a result did not have a blu-ray player did not need Java and did not have a browser as 1080P text is better than 1080i text. (All this is supported in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint). In the powerpoint a Xbox 361 was supposed to be released for the 2012 Nov-Dec season and addresses these issues.
$1,600 isn't viable.
And there is the rub.
Move is complete shit. A copycat wii remote that is worse in some ways. People will look at it and laugh if it is a feature of the console.
Nintendo will have had at least a year on the market with japan in their pocket, a reputation as market leaders and significantly increased first party resources (whereas sony seem to have less and third parties have abandoned them).
Microsoft will pursue tech vigorously. Have been doing a lot of first party expansion as well and are the current holders of the motion control throne.
Sony need to set themselves apart, even if it's by having a "traditional" controller. They also need much better launch software than the shitty ps3 stuff they had.
Things will get crazy and sony has to step up.
pieatorium
Member
-$300 alienware markup he mentioned
- retail markup, consoles at release are usually sold close to cost if not under
- lower cost of parts for bulk deals with the silicon providers
+ R&D
even using whats exactly in thay box to make a console Sony or MS wouldn't charge close to 1600 or even 1000
his point was about the form factor for that amount of power and nothing else
Killzone 4 will get me to buy a ps4. That sweet sweet nectar.
Depends. They could have a fair bit less power and still be ok. Gaikai + blu ray + no kinect processing/price overhead will do them well
I honestly see Orbis launching a few months later with an edge in performance. Sony's built a reputation with fantastic visuals, I don't expect them to skimp out on any thing.
Wolves Evolve
Member
It ... won't show in multiplatform titles. That's... the point. The publishers are telling the console makers to equalise.
test_account
XP-39C²
256GB of storage is actually normal regarding SDD harddrives. Some quick examples:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147193
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227792
You also have 128GB and 512GB SDD harddrives as well.
This is why I think comments about Sony being conservative are misplaced. N the vita sure, but this is their big ticket item. They need to go big or gone home with PS4.
And on the flip side, MS don't automatically get a blank cheque just because the parent company earns a lot.
8-core intel CPU doesn't have to mean sandy bridge or haswell. Wasn't one of the rumours around an 8-core atom variant?
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
An APU only system probably wouldn't be pushing 1080p 60fps with any significant increase in graphical fidelity, much less in 3D. And unless you expect something else to set it apart from the PS3 (new control type etc.) a leap that small isn't going to fly.
gundamkyoukai
Member
If Sony gets the best version of multiplatform titles they would be happy it does not have to be much better .
Only to get multi system owners to buy it on there system or use as another talking point for there system .
Showing off there hardware is what there first party is for , what devs want is easy hardware to work with more than anything else .
DaSorcerer7
Member
I think he means no discrete GPU in addition to the APU mentioned in the OP.
thehypocrite
Member
Those are worst than the equivalent ones offered by AMD.
There are two types of consumers. The first is the tech minded who purchases games based on their performance, and the second gravitate towards whatever platform their friends are on. With that said, Sony should at least attempt for the first group.
First off, moment of silence to honor this awesome Twitter post, lol.
https://twitter.com/yosp/status/212393696979730432
Secondly, I was initially happy with the possibility of Sony throwing in 4GB of RAM, but then I thought about how UN-future proof this gens consoles have been. And how devs have been complaining about the lack of memory for freaking years now. Corners had to be cut more than ever.
So I was thinking, these machines WILL NOT, be sold at a profit, there is no conceivable way with the route they're going. If the Wii U isn't even making profit, throw Sony and Microsoft into that boat as well. So they will be looking to gain profit in the LONG term, meaning these consoles will have to be more productive than these consoles if they make it this far into their cycles.
So I swung by the Gametrailers Forums (since I used to go there before I was a GAF'er, don't laught), and dug up a comment by a user on there. Lead me to believe that 8GB could be a real possibility, and more future proof than 4GB. I'd welcome this no problem. If we get stuck with 4, then fine, I'll embrace it, and trust in devs to go wild with it. But I am now on the overly ambitious, "fuck it, I want 8" boat.
His following reply is to someone claiming 4Gigs of RAM is all a console would ever need to do 1080p, and the only reason they'd need to add more RAM is to be able to run games at the higher resolutions that are bound to be available in the coming years.
One mistake he might of made was implying that console RAM and PC RAM are the same. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, nonetheless, I'm hoping Sony get it right with hardware this time. I think they'll make the move to be strong in the multiplatform department.
https://twitter.com/yosp/status/212393696979730432
Secondly, I was initially happy with the possibility of Sony throwing in 4GB of RAM, but then I thought about how UN-future proof this gens consoles have been. And how devs have been complaining about the lack of memory for freaking years now. Corners had to be cut more than ever.
So I was thinking, these machines WILL NOT, be sold at a profit, there is no conceivable way with the route they're going. If the Wii U isn't even making profit, throw Sony and Microsoft into that boat as well. So they will be looking to gain profit in the LONG term, meaning these consoles will have to be more productive than these consoles if they make it this far into their cycles.
So I swung by the Gametrailers Forums (since I used to go there before I was a GAF'er, don't laught), and dug up a comment by a user on there. Lead me to believe that 8GB could be a real possibility, and more future proof than 4GB. I'd welcome this no problem. If we get stuck with 4, then fine, I'll embrace it, and trust in devs to go wild with it. But I am now on the overly ambitious, "fuck it, I want 8" boat.
His following reply is to someone claiming 4Gigs of RAM is all a console would ever need to do 1080p, and the only reason they'd need to add more RAM is to be able to run games at the higher resolutions that are bound to be available in the coming years.
One mistake he might of made was implying that console RAM and PC RAM are the same. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, nonetheless, I'm hoping Sony get it right with hardware this time. I think they'll make the move to be strong in the multiplatform department.
Dedicated GPU. I read the OP, no specific mention of a dedicated GPU, just a combined CPU+GPU (APU).
Half the idle speculation in this thread is about whether or not there is a dedicated GPU.
If there is a dedicated GPU, then it makes the use of an APU a pretty good choice for CPU+GPGPU duties (i.e. it'll have physics acceleration on top of normal graphics).
It the GPU on the APU is the only GPU in the console, then it's not going to be a very powerful machine.
So if 2 consoles this generation are going to be relatively low in power, it's not a huge stretch to think that developers will use the lower power platforms as the target platforms... then scale up (higher AA, higher resolution, etc) for the more powerful platforms.
yurinka
Member
yosp is awesome and knows the difference between a farmer with a shotgun and Nappa
If they can get the 3D stacking shit together, 8 GB of RAM is a possibility. 6 GB dedicated to games, 2 GB dedicated to OS features / security.
I just hope Google helps them out in terms of OS. The last thing I want is Sony designing another OS.
Canis lupus
Member
Man no dedicated gpu would suck, this apu isn't that impressive.
yurinka
Member
The OP says:
- 'is based on the AMD’s A10 APU series.'
- 'PS4′s APU was described today as a “derivative” of existing A10 hardware. The hardware is “based on A10 system and base platform”.'
Which means that is a customized and not the normal available in the market. And if they customize it will be to make something new more powerful than the current family of hardware available in the market, as they did with Vita. They can overclock the CPU part of the APU and to put a fucking HD 7970 as GPU part inside of it if they want.
Doesn't make sense to consider that PS4 is going to be something equivalent to WiiU because PS3 is already close to it. So if they PS4 is at least a 4x or 5x PS3 ducktaped (the least of the options with normal A10 PC specs) will be way more powerful than WiiU. Considering that the devkits have 8/16GB, this leads to think that PS4 will have at least 4GB or RAM, which is 8X PS3 ducktaped.
These specs aren't made to play Mass Effect 3 and Batman AA, because PS3 already runs them. If WiiU gets multiplatform games will be with PS3/360/Vita, and not with Orbis/Durango.
Check what yosp thinks about the comparisions with farmers.
Assuming that it's going the good tech path (APU+GPU), that's going to mean we'll finally start seeing substantial physical simulation in games next gen.
Which is pretty goddamn awesome, when we've been shown stuff like hair + cloth + soft body deformation systems for the last 10 or so years in various tech demos.
But graphics can only be so much of a draw; bloody DS and Wii have trounced everything this gen.
What they need to start off with is a split dual shock motion controller and camera. Not just because it's obvious, and allows developers to mix motion and classic controllers from the get go...
But because that will allow the system to be forward compatible with VR (at least much more so). If they want this thing to last, then it'll need provision for potentially the biggest disruptive tech in gaming.
Even if VR doesn't become a world conquering champ in sales - the halo effect that it'll provide will be tremendous (assuming this is a competitive advantage, rather than just something all next gen consoles will do).
Like... when you're comparing a full field of vision, head tracking VR GT6, where it feels like you're in the car... versus Forza 5, where you're looking at nicer graphics, but still otherwise with a controller on a flatscreen... the difference will be night and day. The change in perspective will feel like a next-generation leap!
Which is pretty goddamn awesome, when we've been shown stuff like hair + cloth + soft body deformation systems for the last 10 or so years in various tech demos.
But graphics can only be so much of a draw; bloody DS and Wii have trounced everything this gen.
What they need to start off with is a split dual shock motion controller and camera. Not just because it's obvious, and allows developers to mix motion and classic controllers from the get go...
But because that will allow the system to be forward compatible with VR (at least much more so). If they want this thing to last, then it'll need provision for potentially the biggest disruptive tech in gaming.
Even if VR doesn't become a world conquering champ in sales - the halo effect that it'll provide will be tremendous (assuming this is a competitive advantage, rather than just something all next gen consoles will do).
Like... when you're comparing a full field of vision, head tracking VR GT6, where it feels like you're in the car... versus Forza 5, where you're looking at nicer graphics, but still otherwise with a controller on a flatscreen... the difference will be night and day. The change in perspective will feel like a next-generation leap!
Why would you think there wouldn't be a gpu?
There's no way they hit any of those target goals without one, best believe there will be a GPU in that thing.
To my understanding, the software engineers they have over in Japan were the shitty ones.
They have better ones in the US, but I agree, I'd like an outside party to aid them with their OS.
If not Google, then
Valve?
I don't think sony will come up with a 'different' controller for the orbis plus their market mainly consists of core gamers.
Canis lupus
Member
"Like putting a fucking HD 7970 inside the APU."
Hehe
Hehe
Can they really stick such a powerful (at this point) GPU inside of an APU?
From an economic perspective, I guess that makes a lot of sense (if they can achieve it)... it'll make the PS4 scale with fabrication processes extremely well.
Canis lupus
Member
I think they can, and might have.
That doesn't mean core gamers aren't willing to see extensions in how they interact with the console.
See DS and Vita. Plenty of core gamers on those machines that have innovated outside the existing control paradigm.
Whether they will or won't, I can't say. I'm just saying that it would definetly be a good idea for them to do so. Be the only platform that extends the control paradigm, rather than creating an awkward dichotomy between motion and core controls as has been the case this generation.
I'm not so sure about that. Sony's situation is much worse now than when they were developing the PS3. I don't think they are planning to sell the PS4 at such a loss like they did with the PS3 and want to break even much faster than last generations. I'm expecting good but not great hardware, and that they want to make a difference with quality first party software and good services.
A shame though because Sony has some of the best programmers in the business amoung their first party stable and it would be sad to see them stuck on "limited" hardware for the next generation.
IF they go with something 'special' as the orbis' primary control input they'll lose their current market whereas the casuals won't give a crap either way.Sony have built a reputation as the console maker primarily for core gamers,gimmicks like waggle etc. can be introduced later on the lifecycle.They have to first cater to the core gamer who is looking for that substantial leap over the ps3 and when the costs come down they can cater to the 'casuals'.
GhostTrick
Banned
I dont think they could. If this was possible, we would already see APU with much more powerful graphics processor.
They can afford to take a small hit even now,they sold the ps3 at a loss of $200+ if i recall correctly and going by the rumors that will simply not be the case for the orbis,the machine can come down in costs much earlier and software sales will help offset the early hit.
dragonelite
Member
This at least give me a 10 times plus jump and im happy i think.
Just want 1080p@60fps for games that can spend 2 times flops/pixel compared to this gen.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
No they cant.
The A10's internal GPU will be used as a low power part for the consoles OS and fancy graphical user interface...because that's all it's really fit for.
I find it unbelievable that they wont have a dedicated GPU as well ready to kick in when playing games.
JonathanPower
Member
We should consider that if the CPU and GPU are on the same chip, these can be connected with a super hi-speed bus allowing for a massive increase in performance. This advantage should not be understimated.
yurinka
Member
Yes, they can. For obvious reasons for the mass PC or mobile markets when designing chips they do small steps to get more profit from their manufacturing.
But if a console maker goes to them, this means that they will sell several millions of units of these chips, which justifies the manufacturing costs of something better with the current tech. Remember the Vita, it was the first device with this CPU and GPU in the market even if their family already existed.
So they can go and make the same with the A10 APU family, to release a new custom version for the console optimized for gaming that would mean some leaps compared to the other existing versions of A10 in the market.
And as I know to put the GPU inside the APU would help them with manufaturing costs, heat, power consumption and box size. They need power to make a substantial leap over the last gen and to make happy the hardcores that is their main market when launching a new console but they can't affor too high and will choose somethng powerful but affordable like they did with Vita. They can't afford huge looses as they did with PS3. So same goes with HDD (I think that even if it's a 256GB one will be a normal HDD) and controller (they can release some Move 2 stuff in the future once the console price goes down to appeal the casuals but I think that they will focus the hardcore at launch).
Canis lupus
Member
I find it astonishing that people think Sony would "do a Nintendo" and employ current gen capabilities for their next system - because their place in the market dictates them to do so?
Performing poorly by your previously sky-high standards doesn't require you to cheapen the product out the box next time around. Sony built their brand on a "high end" appeal. Whether or not you like their products is a matter of opinion and you're welcome to disapprove of them.
But they won't just throw out their whole MO out the window because of some (mostly early) blunders with the PS3. They'd fail miserably.
Both Sony and MS will be aiming to make their system the best looking but without sacrificing a reasonable price point. I expect the next Playstation and Xboxes to be on par with each other, graphically, like a +/-5% difference. The PS4 will probably be more expensive (but not by a large margin, probably a $25-$50 difference on the better SKU and an equally affordable lesser SKU).
Performing poorly by your previously sky-high standards doesn't require you to cheapen the product out the box next time around. Sony built their brand on a "high end" appeal. Whether or not you like their products is a matter of opinion and you're welcome to disapprove of them.
But they won't just throw out their whole MO out the window because of some (mostly early) blunders with the PS3. They'd fail miserably.
Both Sony and MS will be aiming to make their system the best looking but without sacrificing a reasonable price point. I expect the next Playstation and Xboxes to be on par with each other, graphically, like a +/-5% difference. The PS4 will probably be more expensive (but not by a large margin, probably a $25-$50 difference on the better SKU and an equally affordable lesser SKU).
Canis lupus
Member
Exactly, just because Sony is in a weaker position than it was in 2006 doesn't mean they'll cheapen their next console. They're a company driven by engineers.
They can make a console that'll cost them 349, but sell it at a loss for 299, they can make a console that'll cost them 399 and sell it at 449 and make money on every unit sold.