No, kids read into gender roles at a much younger age than they are intelligent enough to understand them.
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Man Edits Wind Waker so 3-Year Old Daughter Doesn't Feel 2nd Class
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
No, kids read into gender roles at a much younger age than they are intelligent enough to understand them.
WrenchNinja
Member
What part of Wind Waker hinges on Link being a boy?
Apparently, a father who cares so deeply about this aspect of his child's upbringing that he goes to the trouble (though not an extraordinary amount) of working on a personal project he knows his daughter will enjoy and which will lead to more bonding time between them is a bad parent. He'd be a better parent if he took the path of least resistance and just did everything the easy way. Also, his working on this project for a few weeks entirely precludes him from ever doing anything else with his child in the future.
The mind boggles.
umm..The daughter absolutely would not know the difference. Who is arguing the path of least resistance? And what exactly is that path?
I certainly applaud parents caring, but I will question the method of how this parent cares...and in fact I feel it ultimately has very little to do with the daughter, and much more to do with the parent.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
What part of Wind Waker hinges on Link being a boy?
The part where Link and Tetra play 'House'.
umm..The daughter absolutely would not know the difference.
Umm yes, the daughter absolutely would know the difference between a boy and a girl...
I guarantee the daughter doesn't care
Great assumption. I'm sure you know the daughter better than her father.
faceless007
Member
If wishes were horses...So, where does this argument end? Call me Carli? A parent should be able to empower their children without their view of themselves being manipulated by media (books, movies, video games, television, etc...)
I assume you're also against all mods for PC games (texture mods, cinematic mods, difficulty mods) then?The media should be consumed as it is made, and dissected for how it is made.
Kids become aware of gender roles well before they are able to use those words meaningfully.If the daughter is of age and intelligent enough to read anything into gender roles, then she is intelligent enough to discuss and understand those themes.
You can't seem to get your argument straight as to whether this was so dumb because it was such a trivial exercise that took no effort, or because it was such a work-intensive project that it precluded him from doing anything else with his daughter.Because this is a non-issue. You replace one word with another, and you're done. You don't make a spectacle of it.
But if you had bothered to read the article, you would have seen that it wasn't quite as simple as a find-and-replace for pronouns, as it also required him to modify substantially more text to keep it consistent. As for spectacle, he blogged about it and Ars Technica wrote it up. The nerve of them.
....Wait, now you're denying that building things with construction toys has any educational value for kids? Like, you don't think engineers are often the kids who spent a ton of time playing with Legos as a kid?It just seems to me like building the Sistine Chapel out of Legos, in order to teach your child the natures of architecture. No, you're doing it because you love legos and you have too much time on your hands.
And I mostly disagree because if that was his real issue his time could have been spent MUCH more efficiently.
Is your objection really just "He isn't doing this in the optimal manner" or do you have some deeper objection to him doing this?
If it's just the former, I don't really get the strength or the insistence of your objections. It's his time; if he felt it was worthwhile for him and his daughter, what does it matter to you?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It really does seem, after 20+ pages, that the core argument for those who generally dislike this story, or react negatively to it, is this:
The sanctity of the story as written by the creators is worth more than the enjoyment provided by changing/manipulating the story for a specific audience.
There are ancillary concerns (exploitation of the act for the purpose of media attention) but for the most part, the majority of arguments AGAINST what this guy did seem to boil down to the idea that instead of changing the story/mythology of Wind Waker for the sake of his 3 1/2 year old daughter, he should have just chosen another story.
The sanctity of the story as written by the creators is worth more than the enjoyment provided by changing/manipulating the story for a specific audience.
There are ancillary concerns (exploitation of the act for the purpose of media attention) but for the most part, the majority of arguments AGAINST what this guy did seem to boil down to the idea that instead of changing the story/mythology of Wind Waker for the sake of his 3 1/2 year old daughter, he should have just chosen another story.
WrenchNinja
Member
My memory must be fuzzy, I dont remember that part.The part where Link and Tetra play 'House'.
No, kids read into gender roles at a much younger age than they are intelligent enough to understand them.
Fine? And at what age are they able to un-read into those things?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Fine? And at what age are they able to un-read into those things?
Never? I don't understand the question. Is your concern now that you feel the daughter has been unfairly indoctrinated into a view of gender heroics that is imbalanced somehow?
faceless007
Member
There are ancillary concerns (exploitation of the act for the purpose of media attention) but for the most part, the majority of arguments AGAINST what this guy did seem to boil down to the idea that instead of changing the story/mythology of Wind Waker for the sake of his 3 1/2 year old daughter, he should have just chosen another story.
And yet not a single person making that argument has been able to name a viable, age-appropriate substitute.
If wishes were horses...
I assume you're also against all mods for PC games (texture mods, cinematic mods, difficulty mods) then?
Kids become aware of gender roles well before they are able to use those words meaningfully.
You can't seem to get your argument straight as to whether this was so dumb because it was such a trivial exercise that took no effort, or because it was such a work-intensive project that it precluded him from doing anything else with his daughter.
But if you had bothered to read the article, you would have seen that it wasn't quite as simple as a find-and-replace for pronouns, as it also required him to modify substantially more text to keep it consistent. As for spectacle, he blogged about it and Ars Technica wrote it up. The nerve of them.
....Wait, now you're denying that building things with construction toys has any educational value for kids? Like, you don't think engineers are often the kids who spent a ton of time playing with Legos as a kid?
Ummm...Read again. If this thread isn't locked by morning, I'll happily come back and point out the reading comprehension you missed out on. (PROTIP: the solution of replacing man with woman was trivial, the effort it took to hex-hack was entirely unnecessary and could have been time better spent._
Fine? And at what age are they able to un-read into those things?
Well not at 3 years old, so for now the father modded a story to make the hero a girl.
It also seems like you're assuming the daughter somehow won't ever hear stories where the hero is a boy. Don't worry, she'll be exposed to reality. For now, let her imagine Link is a girl.
And yet not a single person making that argument has been able to name a viable, age-appropriate substitute.
Tell your own. SHE IS THREEEEEEEE
Well not at 3 years old, so for now the father modded a story to make the hero a girl.
It also seems like you're assuming the daughter somehow won't ever hear stories where the hero is a boy. Don't worry, she'll be exposed to reality. For now, let her imagine Link is a girl.
You're not making much sense. They can learn something at an age, but they can't unlearn something? Can they learn the opposite?
EDIT: Maybe it would help if I said the one three year old I know closely had very very little media in her life while I was her care-taker. Of course, if you allow a three year old to be exposed to a ton a media, they will learn certain things. And if they live in a traditional household, they will learn certain things. As long as you talk to them when they're capable of logic it doesn't make much of a difference if they enjoy playing barbie, cooking, baseball, or sniping.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
, the effort it took to hex-hack was entirely unnecessary and could have been time better spent._
Again, this assumes that the sort of guy who WOULD spend the time hex-hacking Wind Waker for the edification of his 3 1/2 year old daughter ISN'T doing other things (things you might likely approve of) with his time. To which I again ask (you haven't answered too many of my questions) what about this guys actions would lead you to believe he isn't also reading to his kid/talking to his kid/teaching his kid about all manner of life experience, including gender roles?
You're not making much sense. They can learn something at an age, but they can't unlearn something? Can they learn the opposite?
What exactly is so difficult to grasp? Toddlers subconsciously learn gender roles, but you can't sit them down and discuss gender roles intelligently with them to "un-learn" them or whatever.
faceless007
Member
Tell your own. SHE IS THREEEEEEEE
She likes video games. The dad likes to play video games with her. Why should they not be able to enjoy that pasttime together?
Well not at 3 years old, so for now the father modded a story to make the hero a girl.
It also seems like you're assuming the daughter somehow won't ever hear stories where the hero is a boy. Don't worry, she'll be exposed to reality. For now, let her imagine Link is a girl.
That's fine...As long as she can pick up on, and identify with, the qualities that made him or her a hero, I don't care if he has a diddly or don't.
She likes video games. The dad likes to play video games with her. Why should they not be able to enjoy that pasttime together?
Why couldn't they before the hex-hack? Ohhhh yeah, the hypersensitivity to gender roles on behalf of the father.
EDIT: Like, do you really think the effort he went through impacted the enjoyment for his daughter? Would there have been any difference if he had just read 'she' instead of 'he'?
I can't hate the effort, I just feel it could have been better placed. I also feel it was an attention grab.
What exactly is so difficult to grasp? Toddlers subconsciously learn gender roles, but you can't sit them down and discuss gender roles intelligently with them to "un-learn" them or whatever.
So if the daughter grows up watching the father cook and clean, should I hex-hack this hex-hack to make link a stay at home dad?
EDIT: Keep your kids away from media and the way they view the world will ultimately be dictated by you.
EDIT: Like, do you really think the effort he went through impacted the enjoyment for his daughter? Would there have been any difference if he had just read 'she' instead of 'he'?
Obviously he thought it was worth the effort. I'm sure he knows the impact on his daughter's enjoyment alot more than we do. But please, feel free to judge based on nothing.
So if the daughter grows up watching the father cook and clean, should I hex-hack this hex-hack to make link a stay at home dad?
EDIT: Keep your kids away from media and the way they view the world will ultimately be dictated by you.
Do whatever you think is best for your kids. That's what this father is doing. Parents dictate what media they expose their kids to, anyway. You seem to care an awful lot about this little girl and how she's being raised for some reason.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I can't hate the effort, I just feel it could have been better placed. I also feel it was an attention grab.
But you're hating the effort. Explicitly. Also, lets say it is an attention grab - is there anything inherently wrong with trying to garner attention for this particular issue regarding gender and gaming? Or do you simply believe he was trying to garner attention for himself as a means of making himself feel better?
EDIT: Keep your kids away from media
This is not only damn near impossible, but potentially unhealthy/unnecessarily stunting.
Obviously he thought it was worth the effort. I'm sure he knows the impact on his daughter's enjoyment alot more than we do. But please, feel free to judge based on nothing.
Do whatever you think is best for your kids. That's what this father is doing. Parents dictate what media they expose their kids to, anyway. You seem to care an awful lot about this little girl and how she's being raised for some reason.
If my discussion on a topic involving someone correlates to my care of that person, then your argument is just as effective against yourself.
But you're hating the effort. Explicitly. Also, lets say it is an attention grab - is there anything inherently wrong with trying to garner attention for this particular issue regarding gender and gaming? Or do you simply believe he was trying to garner attention for himself as a means of making himself feel better?
This is not only damn near impossible, but potentially unhealthy/unnecessarily stunting.
All media entirely? somewhat. Media you don't want them exposed to? Not at all.
And yes, I feel this was purely self-fueled. Whether the game said he or she had no impact on his daughter. It had an impact on him, and how he viewed himself. Replace words and there is virtually no difference. But there still would be to him. Because I believe he's the type of person who needs this. If you feel this is the right thing to do, then do it. It's your kid and your choice.
If my discussion on a topic involving someone correlates to my care of that person, then your argument is just as effective against yourself.
Uh huh.
Uh huh.
You've replied more than I have in this topic. wasn't your logic that I care so much about this girl because I was responding so much? Or did I miss something?
You've replied more than I have in this topic. wasn't your logic that I care so much about this girl because I was responding so much? Or did I miss something?
Yep.
Fine? And at what age are they able to un-read into those things?
I think you underestimate the extent to which kids absorb the messages that media (books, games, movies, news they happen to see, and who is represented and what roles they tend to play) and use them to frame their view of the world. It is why these children make assumptions about the gender of whether the baker is a boy or a girl and whether the mathematician is a boy or a girl. It is also why even today children express the same racist beliefs about black and white dolls as they did.
If he wants to give us daughter a full fledged video game in which the hero is represented as a girl, good for him. I'm sure there's other things relating to this issue that he could do with his time, but that doesn't mean this was time poorly spent.
Is your objection really just "He isn't doing this in the optimal manner" or do you have some deeper objection to him doing this?
If it's just the former, I don't really get the strength or the insistence of your objections. It's his time; if he felt it was worthwhile for him and his daughter, what does it matter to you?
I'm not very capable of arguing something half-way. I don't think his daughter is damned, or worse off, because of his actions...but I think making sure to talk about these issues when they are capable of logically understanding them is really all that matters. Link could be an alien unicorn and it wouldn't make a difference if they've been raised well to this point. If she has strong-founded gender roles by age 3, you haven't done a great job, and hex-hacking a game she couldn't care less about won't make a difference.
EDIT: And yeah, if my kid starts calling all plumbers 'Fat Italians', we'll have a talk. Like I said, they can think whatever they want until they're capable of logic. That's when parenting gets real. Keep them away from as much media as possible until then.
Yep.
Good talk!
Chû Totoro
Member
If his girl can understand gender differences and more importantly discuss it, then he should have just explain things to her.
I have a little girl and I don't think such a thing would be that hard to explain.
Also the world is what it is with its good and bad ways so she'll have to learn that (even if I really don't see what is bad here...).
There's plenty of games where the hero is a girl and he shouldn't learn his daughter to think this way in the first place (without trying to understand or explain things but only by seeing the first "part" and most visible thing).
And to conclude my post I will never do that just because I'm not here to hide things or manipulate my daughter (and don't say Santa because it's really not the same...).
I have a little girl and I don't think such a thing would be that hard to explain.
Also the world is what it is with its good and bad ways so she'll have to learn that (even if I really don't see what is bad here...).
There's plenty of games where the hero is a girl and he shouldn't learn his daughter to think this way in the first place (without trying to understand or explain things but only by seeing the first "part" and most visible thing).
And to conclude my post I will never do that just because I'm not here to hide things or manipulate my daughter (and don't say Santa because it's really not the same...).
Good talk!
Hey, you're the one who bailed out on our string of discussion. Shall we get back to it?
Whether the game said he or she had no impact on his daughter.
If she has strong-founded gender roles by age 3, you haven't done a great job, and hex-hacking a game she couldn't care less about won't make a difference.
Your analysis is predicated on the assumption that the girl didn't care, that she already had strong-founded gender roles, and that girl Link had no impact on her. Therefore, the father wasted his time, did it for himself, is an attention whore, and whatever.
It's far more plausible that the girl enjoys Wind Waker, and imagining Link as a girl made her happy, which completely validated her father's efforts. Instead you're really stretching to some far-fetched conclusion. I guess if you really want to criticize the father, you can believe what you want, but you have to realize how crazy it sounds.
Hey, you're the one who bailed out on our string of discussion. Shall we get back to it?
Your analysis is predicated on the assumption that the girl didn't care, that she already had strong-founded gender roles, and that girl Link had no impact on her. Therefore, the father wasted his time, did it for himself, is an attention whore, and whatever.
It's far more plausible that the girl enjoys Wind Waker, and imagining Link as a girl made her happy, which completely validated her father's efforts. Instead you're really stretching to some far-fetched conclusion. I guess if you really want to criticize the father, you can believe what you want, but you have to realize how crazy it sounds.
And rather than hex-hacking every instance referencing link as a male, what else could the father have done? There really was only one solution!!
Yeah, I do realize how crazy it sounds.
EDIT: And most of your assumptions were wrong. The girl shouldn't be happier whether he is a boy or a girl at 3, if the parent had done a good job until then. She should be completely indifferent.
Also, to the mod that responded, those kids aren't 3, and that's really anecdotal.
But then when she finds out that link is actually a boy, and the father changed it, then what?
The father said he did it so that the daughter would see a girl hero. But what she actually sees is a father covering up the reality which is that most games' hero's are male. Rather that teaching a girl that women can be independent he's telling her that men are better placed to decide what she sees.
(Of course she's three and probably won't care that the link in the next game is a boy, but it just feels a silly thing to do. There are games with female heroes, or just read her a story or watch a movie with a strong female lead)
The father said he did it so that the daughter would see a girl hero. But what she actually sees is a father covering up the reality which is that most games' hero's are male. Rather that teaching a girl that women can be independent he's telling her that men are better placed to decide what she sees.
(Of course she's three and probably won't care that the link in the next game is a boy, but it just feels a silly thing to do. There are games with female heroes, or just read her a story or watch a movie with a strong female lead)
And rather than hex-hacking every instance referencing link as a male, what else could the father have done? There really was only one solution!!
Yeah, I do realize how crazy it sounds.
Nobody's saying it's the only solution. Just that it's one nice solution.
EDIT: And most of your assumptions were wrong. The girl shouldn't be happier whether he is a boy or a girl at 3, if the parent had done a good job until then. She should be completely indifferent.
Kids preferring characters of their own gender is completely natural. You're making ridiculous shit up.
I guess all those parents whose daughters like Cinderella and whose sons like Batman are complete failures.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I wonder if they react as harshly to any old romhack or localization quirk as well.It really does seem, after 20+ pages, that the core argument for those who generally dislike this story, or react negatively to it, is this:
The sanctity of the story as written by the creators is worth more than the enjoyment provided by changing/manipulating the story for a specific audience.
Nobody's saying it's the only solution. Just that it's one nice solution.
But it's somehow far fetched that I think this is an attention grab when he could have functionally accomplished the same thing with literally zero time spent? Does wasting a ton of time on a personal hobby make him father of the year? Does trying to get your name out there for your time wasting warrant praise? All of it is silly. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this, and the fact that it ended up as a story makes me think this was simply something HE wanted to do.
I guess it could go two ways. One is that she completely overreacts, spurns the cisterhood and makes out with the first woman she comes across while burning the American flag. The other is that, unlike some here, she's able to appreciate the gesture while understanding the feeling that went into it from her father.But then when she finds out that link is actually a boy, and the father changed it, then what?
Nobody's saying it's the only solution. Just that it's one nice solution.
Kids preferring characters of their own gender is completely natural. You're making ridiculous shit up.
Source for age 3?
And how much of that is parents forcing them into gender roles? If your dad buys you batman shit at age 3, you're going to like it. If your dad buys you barbie shit at age 3, you're going to like it. 3 year olds are essentially gender neutral, if you haven't steered them one way or the other. Have you been dressing them in pink constantly? Are they aware of the word 'princess'? If so then yeah, of course they'll identify with other characters who share the same interests as them...but it has everything to do with what you've given and taught them, and nothing to do with gender.
But it's somehow far fetched that I think this is an attention grab when he could have functionally accomplished the same thing with literally zero time spent? Does wasting a ton of time on a personal hobby make him father of the year? Does trying to get your name out there for your time wasting warrant praise? All of it is silly. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this, and the fact that it ended up as a story makes me think this was simply something HE wanted to do.
Yes, it's far-fetched because you assume he submitted his blog article to Ars Technica, you assume there was no reason for him to do this (eg: wouldn't make a difference to the girl), and you assume he was selfish and only wanted to do for himself. Seriously, the narrative you're trying to paint of the father relies on so many assumptions, it's far-fetched.
Source for age 3?
Seems pretty obvious. You really think a 3-year-old would naturally look at boy heroes and girl heroes the same way?
faceless007
Member
But it's somehow far fetched that I think this is an attention grab when he could have functionally accomplished the same thing with literally zero time spent?
It's a little disconcerting that you think it's OK for a parent teaching his child to read to say aloud the words on the screen differently from what they appear.
It's a little disconcerting that you think it's OK for a parent teaching his child to read to say aloud the words on the screen differently from what they appear.
It'd be more disconcerting if a parent is mainly teaching their child to read through The Wind Waker.
Yes, it's far-fetched because you assume he submitted his blog article to Ars Technica, you assume there was no reason for him to do this (eg: wouldn't make a difference to the girl), and you assume he was selfish and only wanted to do for himself. Seriously, the narrative you're trying to paint of the father relies on so many assumptions, it's far-fetched.
Seems pretty obvious. You really think a 3-year-old would naturally look at boy heroes and girl heroes the same way?
Yes, I do. The father could have just as easily convinced his daughter that she's a boy in the time it took him to do this.
EDIT: Again, at that age, they are gender neutral, outside of the stereotypes parents often force on them.
And go ahead, ask Ars Technica how they stumbled upon this gem.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Good for the man i say. Some reactions on gaf used to surprise me, but not anymore. The man did good thing for his daughter. Good for him.
It'd be more disconcerting if a parent is mainly teaching their child to read through The Wind Waker.
Why would the parent be mainly teaching their child to read through Wind Waker? The more reasonable picture is that the parents are also reading books to their child. You seem determined to suggest the parent is incompetent.
Yes, I do. The father could have just as easily convinced his daughter that she's a boy in the time it took him to do this.
Convince his daughter that she's a boy? Really? Wow.
EDIT: Again, at that age, they are gender neutral, outside of the stereotypes parents often force on them.
No, they're not gender neutral. Gender typing begins around age 2. And to a certain extent, gender differences can be attributed to biology.
And go ahead, ask Ars Technica how they stumbled upon this gem.
Onus is on you to prove this guy is an attention whore.
Why would the parent be mainly teaching their child to read through Wind Waker? The more reasonable picture is that the parents are also reading books to their child. You seem determined to suggest the parent is incompetent.
Convince his daughter that she's a boy? Really? Wow.
No, they're not gender neutral. Gender typing begins around age 2. And to a certain extent, gender differences can be attributed to biology.
Onus is on you to prove this guy is an attention whore.
EDIT: Why wow? Why would that girl think she's a girl? At 3 does she know she doesn't have a penis? Of course not. Where would the difficulty even lie in convincing them of that? They believe what you tell them. And since they really don't have much of a memory at that age, it could be accomplished in a few weeks tops. Now, I'm not condoning or suggesting this...but a 3 year old girl only knows they're a 3 year old girl because you tell them they're a 3 year old girl.
I won't respond to all of these, but what do you think gender typing means? Do you think it means a 2 year old becoming aware of their own genetics and sexuality? Or do you think it means a child associating with a sex because of how they're referenced and treated by family?
EDIT 2: Onus on me for proving he wanted attention for what he did? lol...really? If he didn't want attention he wouldn't have blogged it. Unless of course he was just trying to satiate the demand.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
This seems like a good idea at first, but then I remember that there are good games with strong female protagonists already.
Beyond Good and Evil
Any Metroid game that isn't Other M
Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones
Mirror's Edge
Even any Pokémon game from Crystal onwards (except don't actually pick Crystal, because it sucks)
And I'm sure there's a whole bunch more that I'm forgetting or have never heard of. Needing to edit Wind Waker is more a failure on the father's end than anything.
really now? Doing all this work for his little girl makes it a failure on his part? What a ridiculous post.
Weltall Zero
Member
/shrug
It's par for the course to see such backlash against the modding of a game for someone else's daughter because of the lack of female heroes targeting her demographic. Cry about generalizations all you want, it's definitely an issue with gaming.
I don't know how to feel about the whole issue. Or rather, how I should feel, because right off the bat I feel it was kind of cute. But should I?
I realize I'm applying a double standard here. I know full well what I would think of anyone that did the opposite, i.e. alter one of the painfully few female main characters to make her a him, in order to not "confuse" his/her son. How would any of you feel if Alis Landale, Terra, Celes, Jade, Samus, Chell, were replaced by a dad who was concerned about his son playing as a female character? I know I would be livid. :/
Is it because there are so painfully few half-decent female main characters that I feel what he did was not only acceptable, but adorable in a way, while I think the opposite would have me screaming bloody murder? Is alteration of a work acceptable to me only when it is in the direction of balance? I'm not sure what to think about my own opinion. :/
As a side, depressing point, listing as many as seven female main characters that aren't a complete insult to women not only took the most time out of this whole post, but several of them are already interchangeable with a generic male character (I also did leave out Bayonetta, if only because making her look even remotely male would probably take a bit more than edition pronouns...).