• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Man Edits Wind Waker so 3-Year Old Daughter Doesn't Feel 2nd Class

Kazerei

Banned
EDIT: Why wow? Why would that girl think she's a girl? At 3 does she know she doesn't have a penis? Of course not. Where would the difficulty even lie in convincing them of that? They believe what you tell them. And since they really don't have much of a memory at that age, it could be accomplished in a few weeks tops. Now, I'm not condoning or suggesting this...but a 3 year old girl only knows they're a 3 year old girl because you tell them they're a 3 year old girl.

I'm not even sure why you brought this idea up.

I won't respond to all of these, but what do you think gender typing means? Do you think it means a 2 year old becoming aware of their own genetics and sexuality? Or do you think it means a child associating with a sex because of how they're referenced and treated by family?

Gender typing means assigning traits, roles, behaviours, etc. to the different genders. So, what were you saying about 3-year-olds being gender neutral?

The point is, if a girl wants to play as a girl, that's normal. It's not a result of bad parenting. You can't expect a 3-year-old to treat boy heroes and girl heroes the same.

EDIT 2: Onus on me for proving he wanted attention for what he did? lol...really? If he didn't want attention he wouldn't have blogged it. Unless of course he was just trying to satiate the demand.

He's an attention whore for blogging in the first place, got it.
 

Nicktals

Banned
The point is, if a girl wants to play as a girl, that's normal. It's not a result of bad parenting. You can't expect a 3-year-old to treat boy heroes and girl heroes the same.

I can and I will!

The point is, if a girl wants to play as a boy, that's normal too.

EDIT: I don't like the word normal. Acceptable, or fine, would work better.

EDIT 2: And on the gender typing, that's what I've been talking about. And is essentially what this father is doing. You should want to play as a girl because you're a girl and girls like to play as girls. I'm surprised it starts as late as age 2. Girls are taught their favorite color is pink before then, aren't they?
 

Kazerei

Banned
I can and I will!

The point is, if a girl wants to play as a boy, that's normal too.

EDIT: I don't like the word normal. Acceptable, or fine, would work better.

I thought the point you were making was that a 3-year-olds are supposed to be indifferent to gender if raised properly, but anyways.

I agree, if a girl wants to play as a boy, that's fine. But maybe this girl wanted to play as a girl in Wind Waker. Or maybe her father is a selfish dumbass. Believe whatever you like.

EDIT 2: And on the gender typing, that's what I've been talking about. And is essentially what this father is doing. You should want to play as a girl because you're a girl and girls like to play as girls. I'm surprised it starts as late as age 2. Girls are taught their favorite color is pink before then, aren't they?

Wait what? Weren't you saying earlier that 3-year-olds are gender neutral? Now you're surprised gender typing starts as late as age 2?

Anyways, you're assuming again that the father is forcing his daughter to play as a girl, when the far more rational scenario is that the girl wants to play as a girl. It actually seems counter-gender typing for her to imagine herself as a kid who swings a sword and goes on adventures.
 

Nicktals

Banned
I thought the point you were making was that a 3-year-olds are supposed to be indifferent to gender if raised properly, but anyways.

I agree, if a girl wants to play as a boy, that's fine. But maybe this girl wanted to play as a girl in Wind Waker. Or maybe her father is a selfish dumbass. Believe whatever you like.



Wait what? Weren't you saying earlier that 3-year-olds are gender neutral? Now you're surprised gender typing starts as late as age 2?

Anyways, you're assuming again that the father is forcing his daughter to play as a girl, when the far more rational scenario is that the girl wants to play as a girl.

Gender typing is a result of the parents, not the children.

And, as I see it, the truthful scenario is that the father made an issue out of something that didn't exist. I really doubt the 3 year old girl asked her father if Link could be a girl. It's something that the father....wait for it....wait for it.....wait some more because this goes all the way back to the first thing I said....projected this. Because a girl wants to play as a girl. SHE'S THREE! I played koroninpa (however it's spelled), with the 3 year old I cared for, and the marble was a cow who had to make it's way back to the farm. And the next time we played it was a rocket shooting through the solar system. We used this time to review animals, letters, and planet.

She's three.
 

Kazerei

Banned
Gender typing is a result of the parents, not the children.

And, as I see it, the truthful scenario is that the father made an issue out of something that didn't exist. I really doubt the 3 year old girl asked her father if Link could be a girl. It's something that the father....wait for it....wait for it.....wait some more because this goes all the way back to the first thing I said....projected this. Because a girl wants to play as a girl. SHE'S THREE! I played koroninpa (however it's spelled), with the 3 year old I cared for, and the marble was a cow who had to make it's way back to the farm. And the next time we played it was a rocket shooting through the solar system. We used this time to review animals, letters, and planet.

She's three.

Gender typing is also the result of all sorts of media. But look, the father is working against gender-typing by casting Link as a girl, who swings a sword and goes on adventures. Yay!

So in Kororinpa, your 3-year-old pretended a marble was a cow. In Wind Waker, the other 3-year-old pretended Link was a girl. Yay!

Seriously though, why do you doubt the 3-year-old wanted to imagine herself as the main character in a videogame? That seems completely intuitive, in a videogame where the main character is fairly human. I can't see a kid relating to a marble, but to Link? Sure. It's not that hard.

I guess in the end, you're free to assume the father wasted his time, forced his daughter to play as a girl against her will, and has a blog for the attention. It's just a really far-fetched narrative man.
 

Scapegoat

Member
Though gender roles and stereotyping come in part from parents and media as a whole, one has to keep in mind that there is a great deal of pre-disposition going in. Can you make a girl a tomboy? Can you make a boy effeminate? From the limited case studies, e.g. a boy whose penis was accidently destroyed as a baby and subsequently raised a girl, suggest that broad gender roles may be set in stone from birth. When raised as a girl with "her" sibling brother, she was given pretty dresses and encouraged to be nice and kind and sweet, and play with dolls. The child grew up thinking he was a girl, and such was a tomboy, preferring to play with her brothers trucks and action figures in secret, wearing pants and shorts and hating dresses.

This implies that a tomboy is going to want to be a tomboy, and an effeminate boy is going to be an effeminate boy, regardless of what kind of media or direct messaging you expose them to. As children grow there can be clear differences in behaviour between boys and girls, e.g. boys tend to enjoy rough and tumble play, while girls do not. Though a large part of this would be parent directed (encourage boys to take risks, discourage girls from doing so), I would go back to my point that a child is unlikely to take on these gender roles if they do not wish to. Not all boys like to play rough or play fight. Not all girls hate it either! I don't think these cases are the result of parents encouraging the kids otherwise, rather these are child driven preferences.

I do agree it is important that children are raised without a strong sense of gender specific roles, e.g. all doctors are men, all woman do the cooking and the cleaning. However I do also think that kids will tend to seek out the kinds of heroes and media and games that they like. So in this specific case I fall into the "great! But really what's the point...?" group. In this case I feel like the father is probably getting more out of the exercise than the daughter will be, lol.
 
I do agree it is important that children are raised without a strong sense of gender specific roles, e.g. all doctors are men, all woman do the cooking and the cleaning. However I do also think that kids will tend to seek out the kinds of heroes and media and games that they like. So in this specific case I fall into the "great! But really what's the point...?" group. In this case I feel like the father is probably getting more out of the exercise than the daughter will be, lol.
Exactly what I think... and my post was so bad written I don't think anyone understood my point.
 

Lime

Member
really, there is nothing better than being a white male and i'm glad that there is an entire media dedicated to letting me live out my fantasies.

But Vidcons, you're being so insensitive! What about people who don't share your fantasies and want to have their heritage/culture/appearance represented in this media?!

Fuck you, got mine, pussy pretenders.

Gonna close my eyes and dream!

Goob job. You just summed up every gender debate in gaming and on GAF.
 
No, kids read into gender roles at a much younger age than they are intelligent enough to understand them.

I am back.

...

While true, I feel this is more of a result of watching their parents. That and their parents making clear their gender differences with the toys they buy and the like.
 
It'd be more disconcerting if a parent is mainly teaching their child to read through The Wind Waker.
Who said he's mainly using WW? Maybe he's using it as one text among many others, you know, like every parent? Do you think it's OK for him to read "he" aloud as "she" for any number of texts when she's learning how to read?

Gender typing is a result of the parents, not the children.
And this parent is trying to actively correct that. That makes him a bad parent? It's kind of incoherent to state that a problem is solely within the domain of parents to solve, and then criticize the parent for trying to solve it.

And, as I see it, the truthful scenario is that the father made an issue out of something that didn't exist.
So now you're saying gender typing isn't an issue? Which is it? There's a wealth of sociological evidence that indicates that kids do learn gender roles unconsciously from a very early age, from the media and other external sources, and these preconceptions from a lot of their thinking early on. Are you saying all that evidence is wrong?
 

Le Singe

Neo Member
The father should teach by doing, by showing that he can relate to a female character just as his daughter should be able to relate to a male character, changing the gender might show that the father is lacking in the understanding of this trait.

I would imagine it's easier to relate to playing female characters when you're older and comfortable with the gender rules of the culture you're in and also a member of the gender that is continually pandered to. And the basic lesson is that a person's gender doesn't or shouldn't matter.

And it's disingenuous to say that gender doesn't matter when so many of the hero characters in a medium are all one gender.

I would love to see a switch where female heroes became hugely prevalent. I wonder if many male gamers would find no need for male heroes and if they would just insist everyone related more with the female characters.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Where I come from on this.


On modifying the game and 'violating IP': No.

I've made a couple of games myself. I wrote the story outline (my partner did 90% of the actual dialogue, being the English major and all), set it up a certain way with a male lead. What if someone edited the game to replace the main character with the female co-lead, and put the male lead in it's place?

Well, I couldn't do anything really, and it wouldn't harm my original creation. The laws and understanding of copyright applies to making copies, not altering personal versions. The original game remains downloadable and available, and no other user copies are affected. This right is what allows parodies to exist in media, for example, which are entirely dependent on being able to remix content. While they would have to spend quite a bit of time re-arranging the dialogue in my game to make it work, it'd still be well within their right. Could they re-distribute it as the "intended" game? No, copyright law protects my vision. You can't take a game, change the character, then claim it as the intended work. The father in this scenario is not saying you should play his copy.


On Link needing to be male:

Wind Waker's story has no reliance on Link's gender. There are no love scenes or direct requirements that Link be male or female. Link's appearance in the game is competely androgynous and in the chibi style. The game already allows you to change Link's name to something else, so nobody currently has an issue with the male Hero of Time being named Sue. Why not go the rest of the way and have people refer to the player in the gender pronoun they identify as?


On "losing" Link as a male hero:

This is the silliest reason I've seen, but one I've suspected and one finally mentioned in this thread. You do not lose Link as a male hero; your copy of Wind Waker remains unaltered. It seems people are more scared of the thought that changing Link to a female via a simple text mod makes him 'weaker' as a male character. This isn't a zero sum action. Now there's a tiny branch off everyone's interpretation of Zelda where Link is a female. Much like crossplayers ALREADY do. Nobody is saying women crossplaying Link are being mean to Nintendo, are they?


On "just go play ____ , it has a female lead"

Look guys. We have thousands upon thousands of male heroes and male leads in fiction. We have such an embarassment of wealth of being able to play male heroes, we don't even realize it. Not only are a lot of your suggestions outside of her age group and understanding, but this is what I describe as a "glass ceiling" type of response. This is telling women they don't need anything else to cater to them, "they already got a few heroes, isn't that enough?" Unless he wants her to play Super Princess Peach (ugh) or a Disney Princess / Barbie shitware game, the amount of female heroes for her age group in gaming are virtually non existent.

Male heroes for kids in gaming in actual GOOD games that NeoGAF would play: Mario. Link. Spyro. Banjo. Jak (1). Crash. Donkey and Diddy Kong. Tony Hawk. I could go on and on.

Female heroes: Nondescript female character in Pokemon.

Yeah.

"It modifies the original game, therefore it's bad"

In fact, this was already done to Zelda (since we're on the topic), WITHOUT any outside programs, just with inputs to the controller. Amongst other glitches that allow you to change the game's sequences or story. Someone has now modified the game to have Young Link be the victor at the end of the game of Ocarina of Time, not Adult Link. Other gamers figured out that a certain sequence will modify Halo 2's scripts and memory to prevent the second station from blowing up in the first level - a notable plot point, and one you can repeatedly execute to now alter the game to your taste each time you play it.

Or in less dramatic instance: Fan translations modify an original game, much farther than the father did. Ports done by an outside developer often change significant parts of a game, with no involvement from the original creator. Gamers often use Gamesharks, Action Replays, or trainers on PC to fly around a level, play as a different cutscene only character, or let you kill unkillable NPCs. In no way is the original creation harmed (it still exists and does not affect the owners of that copy). Especially in PC gaming, where there's a base rule that a PC game will at minimum have at least one mod available for it. Like Just Cause 2's flying mod, it's infinite rope mod, or say.. Counterstrike, an entire game made out of modding Half Life 1. Half Life and Just Cause IPs don't seem to be in shambles or burned to the ground, so I think they survived. (In short: everyone has the right to modify their copy of a game. But developers aren't also required to make it easy to modify, nor are they required to allow you to connect to their servers with your modified copy - that's their rights in play)


"What if someone changed Jade to a male so their boy wouldn't have to play as a girl? Wouldn't you be mad?"

It'd be interesting, but I couldn't be against it, since that would make me a hypocrite. But in the realistic sense, this is very unlikely to happen - males of that age group have plenty of male heroes to play as. They already have Link, they already have Gruff McBuff in Teen rated shooters. As males, we have so many heroes to play as that we DON'T need to modify anything to get access to a male fantasy. In a realistic scenario, and what actually happens: the parent just doesn't buy Beyond Good and Evil, or the boy gets disinterested and goes back to Zelda because he has a wealth of male avatars to use.


"Play as Samus!"

One of the more notable things about Metroid is that it was a "twist" at the end that the character you were playing as was a female. That should tell you right there that it's kind of a flimsy game to note as female-centric.

"Play Super Princess Peach"

Shut your goddamn face.
 

SMT

this show is not Breaking Bad why is it not Breaking Bad? it should be Breaking Bad dammit Breaking Bad
Good job pops, but there's no use talking to the conservative Japanese company that is Nintendo of Japan.
 

Kinyou

Member
ITT: people who assume 3-year olds have no concept of the world around them.
m3zUE.png


just joking ;) I know that a 3 year olds inability for conversation of mass doesn't directly relate to what you mean
 
I'm more surprised that the dad is letting his daughter watch him play Wind Waker than anything else. I mean as bright and colorful as it is, there's also a lot of stuff in the game that I imagine would terrify a three year-old. It's his child and therefore he would obviously know better than any of us what's best for his daughter, but still...


Ya know, for kids!
 

Scapegoat

Member
Most 3 year olds don't actually have a very solid construct of gender. Mostly they will attribute differences to gender, i.e. the doll with long hair or a skirt is a girl, the doll with short hair and pants is a boy. If you swapped the dress onto the male doll they are likely to then say the doll is now a girl.
 

JordanN

Banned
From what I see it's a lot less about the publishers being sexist and more about the audience not wanting to play as women.
While I can definitely see this as a cause, is there an actual market research behind this?

I've been on forums and seen this question asked if males want to play as females and while there was some (or was it one?) person who thinks girl protagonist = unicorn fantasy land, the majority didn't have much objection to it.

I hope publishers aren't going on a limb and not greenlighting every girl protagonist game because of what one John Dudebro has to say.
 

vidcons

Banned
I don't know how to feel about the whole issue. Or rather, how I should feel, because right off the bat I feel it was kind of cute. But should I?

I realize I'm applying a double standard here. I know full well what I would think of anyone that did the opposite, i.e. alter one of the painfully few female main characters to make her a him, in order to not "confuse" his/her son. How would any of you feel if Alis Landale, Terra, Celes, Jade, Samus, Chell, were replaced by a dad who was concerned about his son playing as a female character? I know I would be livid. :/

Is it because there are so painfully few half-decent female main characters that I feel what he did was not only acceptable, but adorable in a way, while I think the opposite would have me screaming bloody murder? Is alteration of a work acceptable to me only when it is in the direction of balance? I'm not sure what to think about my own opinion. :/

As a side, depressing point, listing as many as seven female main characters that aren't a complete insult to women not only took the most time out of this whole post, but several of them are already interchangeable with a generic male character (I also did leave out Bayonetta, if only because making her look even remotely male would probably take a bit more than edition pronouns...).

The sex of those characters is very well defined in 'who' they are. Link is a Ken doll, no balls but still a dude.

Changing Link is such a nonissue. Swapping the sex of characters that are not androgynous is pretty fucking insulting.
 

Eusis

Member
On "just go play ____ , it has a female lead"

Look guys. We have thousands upon thousands of male heroes and male leads in fiction. We have such an embarassment of wealth of being able to play male heroes, we don't even realize it. Not only are a lot of your suggestions outside of her age group and understanding, but this is what I describe as a "glass ceiling" type of response. This is telling women they don't need anything else to cater to them, "they already got a few heroes, isn't that enough?" Unless he wants her to play Super Princess Peach (ugh) or a Disney Princess / Barbie shitware game, the amount of female heroes for her age group in gaming are virtually non existent.

Male heroes for kids in gaming in actual GOOD games that NeoGAF would play: Mario. Link. Spyro. Banjo. Jak (1). Crash. Donkey and Diddy Kong. Tony Hawk. I could go on and on.

Female heroes: Nondescript female character in Pokemon.

Yeah.
There's Drill Dozer! And Gurumin come to think of it. Probably a few more too if we keep digging, and while not ideal SMB2's way better to suggest than Super Princess Peach since that doesn't have horrifically misguided MOOD POWERS.

But, yeah, I prefer those games being brought up IN ADDITION to Wind Waker (though he's probably aware of 99% of them) rather than instead of Wind Waker, and half of that's so she or other parents with daughters can have some good game heroines that were there from the start too. Acting as if she can't have girl Link in the version her dad made for her (to watch for now) is ridiculous, kids like to play pretend with things like this and should be allowed to.
 
As a dad of a 5 Yo boy, this has made me contemplate gaming with my son. Bar a few ios joints and some wii & classics, I haven't really gamed much with my son.

Is there a parentGAF thread anywhere? Gaming is a big part of my life I'd love to share more, but am unsure of the right direction.

It'd never even enter my head for example to sit down for some major play sessions with a 3 Yo and go through a Zelda plot for example. We were playing with duplo, lego playmobil and happytown at that age with my boy.
 

jimi_dini

Member
Male heroes for kids in gaming in actual GOOD games that NeoGAF would play: Mario. Link. Spyro. Banjo. Jak (1). Crash. Donkey and Diddy Kong. Tony Hawk. I could go on and on.

Female heroes: Nondescript female character in Pokemon.

First of all more than half of your male heroes are animals. They aren't HUMANS. Why should a gender of an ANIMAL matter? I mean really? Some time ago a little girl played Croc on PSX with me. Did she care about the gender of croc? She enjoyed the game and even I personally didn't even want to know if croc had a gender in the game. It's a sweet little crocodile. That's all that matters.

Secondly you have listed one female hero. Although you even listed all sorts of other females in your post.

What about Princess Peach?
What about Samus?
What about Jade? Those are all human female-like characters unlike the animal characters, that you listed.
Why did you "forget" about Dixie Kong, although you listed Donkey and Diddy? Did you just want to not list any female characters or didn't you think about it that much?
What about Lena from Super Valis IV?
What about Lara Croft?
What about Monica from Dark Cloud 2?
What about Tamber from Children Of Mana?
What about Giana and Maria from the Giana Sisters?
What about Emmy and Flora from Professor Layton?
What about Yoshis in Yoshi's Island for example? Yoshis have to be female, they produce eggs. (they are described as asexual somewhere, but one is for sure: they aren't male)
What about MeeMee from Super Monkey Ball series?
What about Sayaka/Yumi or Haruka/Helga from Ape Escape?
What about Cream from Kuri Kuri Mix?
What about Ulala from Space Channel 5?
What about Kate Walker from Syberia series?
What about Ashley Mizuki Robbins from Another Code series?
What about Morgane Castillo from Captain Morgane and the Golden Turtle?
What about Jill from Jill of the jungle?

And that's just the ones that come into my head from my own game collection (and I didn't include several genres like Survival Horror for example). I also didn't list all the games with a character creation, where you could choose gender.

Also I don't know for sure, but is the gender of Link even specified in the games Zelda 1+2 on NES? I played through Zelda 2, when I was a child and I can't remember one single conversation in that game that specified the gender of Link. If it was in the instruction booklet only, wouldn't that be perfectly fine as well?

It'd be interesting, but I couldn't be against it, since that would make me a hypocrite. But in the realistic sense, this is very unlikely to happen - males of that age group have plenty of male heroes to play as.

So it matters in one case, but the other case is "very unlikely to happen", because there are "plenty of male heroes to play as". But you see above, this change here wouldn't "have been needed" as well, because there are platformers (Giana Sisters) and Zelda-like games (Super Valis IV / Dark Cloud 2 / etc.) as well, that feature a playable female character. And if you just say that the daughter or the father just WANTED to play Zelda (which is perfectly fine of course), then why don't you also agree that a son or his father would WANT to play Space Channel 5 or something. Space Channel 5 for example is something special, I don't know another game that is "like SC5" (and I don't mean some music game of some sorts, I mean aliens combined with music game with funky music) but with a playable male character.
 

-KRS-

Member

Or perhaps americans teenagers just have the mental capability of a 7 year old:
603.jpg


Edit: I just realised this thread is 12 pages long. Someone must have mentioned the 7+ rating on the PAL box before in this thread, so I appologize for my useless post.
 

Eusis

Member
First of all more than half of your male heroes are animals. They aren't HUMANS. Why should a gender of an ANIMAL matter? I mean really? Some time ago a little girl played Croc on PSX with me. Did she care about the gender of croc? She enjoyed the game and even I personally didn't even want to know if croc had a gender in the game. It's a sweet little crocodile. That's all that matters.

Secondly you have listed one female hero. Although you even listed all sorts of other females in your post.
The point as I took it was for games generally considered friendly to <10 children, so definitely NOT Lara Croft at the least, nevermind that he explicitly addressed Samus (I consider the horror undertones more of a problem than being a last minute reveal since being a woman's more clear earlier on in post-Metroid 2 entries) and to a lesser extent Peach (only the RPGs to an extent and SMB2 are really flattering, SPP undermines it). And many of those animals are anthropomorphic so they matter equally as much as Mickey or Minnie, you're SUPPOSED to relate to them. It's the likes of Amaterasu where it arguably doesn't matter and is an admittedly iffy example for it.

So it matters in one case, but the other case is "very unlikely to happen", because there are "plenty of male heroes to play as". But you see above, this change here wouldn't "have been needed" as well, because there are platformers (Giana Sisters) and Zelda-like games (Super Valis IV / Dark Cloud 2 / etc.) as well, that feature a playable female character. And if you just say that the daughter or the father just WANTED to play Zelda (which is perfectly fine of course), then why don't you also agree that a son or his father would WANT to play Space Channel 5 or something. Space Channel 5 for example is something special, I don't know another game that is "like SC5" (and I don't mean some music game of some sorts, I mean aliens combined with music game with funky music) but with a playable male character.
I don't know of another game that is like SC5 PERIOD, but that's beside the point. Depending on the game I would actually find it problematic if they tried to reverse this for their sons: the likes of SC5 (probably require swapping with Michael Jackson or something) or Cooking Mama (entirely new game) could be good, maybe he isn't really interested in typical boy or gender neutral stuff, not exclusively anyway, and would like a game about cooking with a boy as the main character. But replacing an action game's heroine with a hero does seem to be trying to dodge the issue that girls pretty much have to deal with: that you can't always get a character that matches YOU. I guess it's case by case, but it seems it'd be a good lesson in tolerance or empathy to have to roll with it.
Or perhaps americans teenagers just have the mental capability of a 7 year old:
603.jpg


Edit: I just realised this thread is 12 pages long. Someone must have mentioned the 7+ rating on the PAL box before in this thread, so I appologize for my useless post.
... Ah hahaha. But seriously, this is a fantastic example for why ratings should be taken with a grain of salt and not treated as the final say. Every board is considering for different values in different regions, and possibly most importantly evaluated by different people. The ESRB may well have had some who thought the game looked too dark or scary and so it got a T on that alone, or were SUGGESTED that for boosted sales, whereas those with PEGI paid more attention to what REALLY happens in the game or how it is relative to other titles, and gave it a 7+ instead. Same for SMT:Nocturne, it got 12+ in Japan but 17+ in the US, and you could very easily make a sound call to let your 12 year old play it if the most offending material is deemed a non-issue.
 

gunstarhero

Member
"I'm not having my girl grow up thinking girls don't get to be the hero."

Young kids are impressionable and it gives her something to look up to.

I'd think it's awesome if I learned my dad did this.


Agreed - that's pretty awesome.

One of the reasons I got my daughter into Korra, and not the princess crap. I want my daughter to kick ass, not rely on some dude to do it for her.
 

Oersted

Member
Such a sad list.

What about Princess Peach?
Damsel in distress. In her only own game she constantly cries and is pretty weak.
What about Samus?
Her sexuality exists to be objectified.
What about Jade?
A welcomed rarity.
Those are all human female-like characters unlike the animal characters, that you listed.
Sly, Conker and alike are all the sudden asexual?
Why did you "forget" about Dixie Kong, although you listed Donkey and Diddy? Did you just want to not list any female characters or didn't you think about it that much?
The other one.
What about Lena from Super Valis IV?
Not really prominent, don´t you think?
What about Lara Croft?
Serious?
What about Monica from Dark Cloud 2?
Pretty oversexualized for a kid.
What about Tamber from Children Of Mana?
Same thing like Lena and Monica.
What about Giana and Maria from the Giana Sisters?
Dead series, but yeah.
What about Emmy and Flora from Professor Layton?
From Professor Layton.
What about MeeMee from Super Monkey Ball series?
Dead series, not lead character in a character pool.
What about Sayaka/Yumi or Haruka/Helga from Ape Escape?
Such a huge title.
What about Cream from Kuri Kuri Mix?
Same here.
What about Ulala from Space Channel 5?
Dance game.
What about Kate Walker from Syberia series?
Less known than Vita.
What about Ashley Mizuki Robbins from Another Code series?
Even though pretty good, dead series.
What about Morgane Castillo from Captain Morgane and the Golden Turtle?
from Captain Morgane

What about Jill from Jill of the jungle?

jillofthejungle.png



Lets think again:

256px-Sands_of_time_cover.jpg


MarioSMBW.png


File:Layton_and_Luke.jpg


220px-GoW_Blood_and_Metal_300.jpg


250px-Dante_transparent.png


Nathan_Drake_Uncharted.jpg


Master_Chief_in_Halo_4.png


150px-MGS1_Solid_Snake.jpg


This could go on endless.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I'm more surprised that the dad is letting his daughter watch him play Wind Waker than anything else. I mean as bright and colorful as it is, there's also a lot of stuff in the game that I imagine would terrify a three year-old. It's his child and therefore he would obviously know better than any of us what's best for his daughter, but still...



Ya know, for kids!

And the ending is heartbreaking. Most heart-breaking ending in any Zelda ever.

Also Oersted, regardless of Samus' sexuality being a reward to the player, the fact remains that for 90% of any given Metroid game she's a woman in a not at all revealing suit of armor engaged in a life-or-death struggle with aliens. By saying Samus is a bad example of a female character simply because she's sexy or that her sexuality is used as a thirty second reward for a player at the end of the game she's somehow not good is to say that a character's accomplishments are all negated by the fact that they're pretty somehow.

Essentially, you've just said that the fact that Samus is a strong-willed woman who can commit genocide and show mercy on the same day, buck the entire federation and save it in the same fell swoop is somehow LESS than the fact that she wears a skin-tight flight suit for, again, less than a portion of a fraction of a part of the game.

Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but if that IS what you're suggesting, then you're wrong. Suggesting that a woman's accomplishments are obliterated because of the way she looks is NOT the kind of message I would like to be sending.


And for the millionth time: This is one guy modding a game for his kid. This doesn't effect any of us, and it is so harmless that it makes the gender-flipped episode of Adventure Time look sinister by comparison. Why does GAF always have to boil over on topics like this?
 

Jackson

Member
And the ending is heartbreaking. Most heart-breaking ending in any Zelda ever.

Also Oersted, regardless of Samus' sexuality being a reward to the player, the fact remains that for 90% of any given Metroid game she's a woman in a not at all revealing suit of armor engaged in a life-or-death struggle with aliens. By saying Samus is a bad example of a female character simply because she's sexy or that her sexuality is used as a thirty second reward for a player at the end of the game she's somehow not good is to say that a character's accomplishments are all negated by the fact that they're pretty somehow.

Essentially, you've just said that the fact that Samus is a strong-willed woman who can commit genocide and show mercy on the same day, buck the entire federation and save it in the same fell swoop is somehow LESS than the fact that she wears a skin-tight flight suit for, again, less than a portion of a fraction of a part of the game.

Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but if that IS what you're suggesting, then you're wrong. Suggesting that a woman's accomplishments are obliterated because of the way she looks is NOT the kind of message I would like to be sending.


And for the millionth time: This is one guy modding a game for his kid. This doesn't effect any of us, and it is so harmless that it makes the gender-flipped episode of Adventure Time look sinister by comparison. Why does GAF always have to boil over on topics like this?

zerosuit_samus.jpg


image.jpg


I dunno, her official Zero Suit seems pretty exploitative to me.
 

KTGarda

Member
Wow, neat. Cool thing to do, dad.

I don't know how to feel about the whole issue. Or rather, how I should feel, because right off the bat I feel it was kind of cute. But should I?

I realize I'm applying a double standard here. I know full well what I would think of anyone that did the opposite, i.e. alter one of the painfully few female main characters to make her a him, in order to not "confuse" his/her son. How would any of you feel if Alis Landale, Terra, Celes, Jade, Samus, Chell, were replaced by a dad who was concerned about his son playing as a female character? I know I would be livid. :/

Is it because there are so painfully few half-decent female main characters that I feel what he did was not only acceptable, but adorable in a way, while I think the opposite would have me screaming bloody murder? Is alteration of a work acceptable to me only when it is in the direction of balance? I'm not sure what to think about my own opinion. :/

As a side, depressing point, listing as many as seven female main characters that aren't a complete insult to women not only took the most time out of this whole post, but several of them are already interchangeable with a generic male character (I also did leave out Bayonetta, if only because making her look even remotely male would probably take a bit more than edition pronouns...).

Emphasis mine.

You're kind of answering your own question here. It's not likely to happen because of the plethora of male characters age-appropriate for a little boy, but on it's own it wouldn't hurt anything. It probably wouldn't be very flattering to be thought of as the kind of person who would need to do such a thing though.

A good post people should read.

Anyone looking for a good summary of the issues brought up in this thread should click the arrow next to FyreWulff's name up there. I'd repost it, but it's kind of long.

...
And for the millionth time: This is one guy modding a game for his kid. This doesn't effect any of us, and it is so harmless that it makes the gender-flipped episode of Adventure Time look sinister by comparison. Why does GAF always have to boil over on topics like this?

It's because whenever videogames are subjected to any kind of critical inquiry (especially regarding social issues like gender or race), lots of people feel the need to come rushing out shouting "EVERYTHING'S FINE, SHUT UP!"
 

Oersted

Member
Also Oersted, regardless of Samus' sexuality being a reward to the player, the fact remains that for 90% of any given Metroid game she's a woman in a not at all revealing suit of armor engaged in a life-or-death struggle with aliens. By saying Samus is a bad example of a female character simply because she's sexy or that her sexuality is used as a thirty second reward for a player at the end of the game she's somehow not good is to say that a character's accomplishments are all negated by the fact that they're pretty somehow.

Essentially, you've just said that the fact that Samus is a strong-willed woman who can commit genocide and show mercy on the same day, buck the entire federation and save it in the same fell swoop is somehow LESS than the fact that she wears a skin-tight flight suit for, again, less than a portion of a fraction of a part of the game.

Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but if that IS what you're suggesting, then you're wrong. Suggesting that a woman's accomplishments are obliterated because of the way she looks is NOT the kind of message I would like to be sending.


And for the millionth time: This is one guy modding a game for his kid. This doesn't effect any of us, and it is so harmless that it makes the gender-flipped episode of Adventure Time look sinister by comparison. Why does GAF always have to boil over on topics like this?

First: Don´t get me wrong, because I love the Metroid series. But you can´t deny their sexuality is only there to be objectified. Inside the game, her sexuality is a non-issue. Yes, Other M makes sure we won´t miss her ass, but lets pretend that game never existed with all of its exploitative attitude towards a female character. Her sexuality only comes into play at the very end. And you know how.


Lets us not focus so much on Samus. The picture is bigger and sadder than just her in the bikini.
 

Durante

Member
I've mostly been arguing on the "side" of the "feminists" in this thread, since denying the impact of early impressions is clearly wrong. But that's no reason to make up stupid arguments in order to dismiss the games brought up by others.

Pretty oversexualized for a kid.
What? How?

Dead series, but yeah.
Dead series? I could have sworn I just got a new game in the series 2 weeks ago! Series die quickly these days.

Such a huge title.
Same here.
Dance game.
Less known than Vita.
I wasn't aware that only hugely popular games were allowed.

Oh, and while we are at it, there are great female lead characters in pretty much every single of the dozen or so Atelier games.
 

KTGarda

Member
Some of the arguments seem to be "If a female character is remotely sexually attractive, that is exploitation."

Given that "sexiness" is often the primary/exclusive design concern for female characters as opposed to conveying information about the character like most male characters, it usually is. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions, but they don't exist in a vacuum .
 
Given that "sexiness" is often the primary/exclusive design concern for female characters as opposed to conveying information about the character like most male characters, it usually is. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions, but they don't exist in a vacuum .

i.e. sexy is good, objectified is bad
 

CorvoSol

Member
zerosuit_samus.jpg


image.jpg


I dunno, her official Zero Suit seems pretty exploitative to me.

But barring three games, you almost never see Samus in anything but her armor, save a thirty second run in the end of the game. Otherwise she is covered from head to toe in armor, and the games don't do anything exploitative at all. It's asinine to suggest that Samus isn't a good female character when you weigh a thirty second still of her in a bikini against the several hours she spends in heavy armor kicking ass, showing compassion for defenseless creatures, refusing orders and saving the galaxy.

First: Don´t get me wrong, because I love the Metroid series. But you can´t deny their sexuality is only there to be objectified. Inside the game, her sexuality is a non-issue. Yes, Other M makes sure we won´t miss her ass, but lets pretend that game never existed with all of its exploitative attitude towards a female character. Her sexuality only comes into play at the very end. And you know how.


Lets us not focus so much on Samus. The picture is bigger and sadder than just her in the bikini.

My point is that Samus shouldn't be judged based on sexuality, because it is by far the smallest aspect of her character and is relevant to only a small portion of every game. Barring Other M and Brawl, you only play in the Zero Suit once, and that part of the game is more about portraying her as vulnerable and on the run, which is fair because her ship just got shot down. After like, twenty minutes of vulnerability at max, she gets her new suit and goes on a rampage again.

It's unfair to dismiss Samus as an example of how women in video games are just supposed to be sex-objects because that is barely Samus at all. The whole point in the beginning was to subvert the idea that women were damsels to be rescued. Samus is a woman who goes out and hunts monsters every bit as terrifying as Link, and for her it's just business. But she can show mercy, as she does in Metroid II and Super Metroid, and she has a willful side, like in Metroid Fusion.

You can't compare Samus to the overly sexualized women in gaming because Samus' looks aren't a defining part of her character nor of Metroid games in general.
 
This thread has been good reading. IMHO I think it's rather silly this man went out of his way to do this. I mean if he was just figuring out a programming project then fine but the direct quote "Dad's favorite pastime shouldn't treat girls like second-class citizens". That's some projecting male guilt right there. Falls in line with the recent "feminism" push in video games.
 

zoukka

Member
This thread has been good reading. IMHO I think it's rather silly this man went out of his way to do this. I mean if he was just figuring out a programming project then fine but the direct quote "Dad's favorite pastime shouldn't treat girls like second-class citizens". That's some projecting male guilt right there. Falls in line with the recent "feminism" push in video games.

And what's wrong about either of those in a world clearly unblanaced in gender issues?
 
Top Bottom