StoppedInTracks
Member
It is in Nintendo's best interest now that PS4 and 720 launch as late as possible. Spring 2014 would be ideal giving Wii U 1.5 years of unique games and PS360 downports.
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Wii U has 2GB of DDR3 RAM, [Up: RAM 43% slower than 360/PS3 RAM]
- Thread starter Horse Armour
- Start date
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Thanks, I must have missed those.
I can try to make a RAM metaphor about buckets of water. NeoGAF loves metaphors.
RAM is like an environmentally-friendly rain barrel. Rain water fills those up, and there's a valve on the bottom, so you can use rain water for various jobs around the house without wasting your supply of clean drinking water.
Well the rain barrel at WiiU's house is four times as big as PS360's! Yay! But the OS has claimed half of it. Let's just say that the wife put a plastic barrier down the inside of the barrel, because she wants to reserve some water for her flowers. Okay, I guess. Damn that's a lot of flower watering. But it's still a huge barrel, so who cares. But also, the opening for water catching at the top of WiiU's barrel is half as large as PS360's openings are, so for all it's capacity, it only collects water half as fast. And the valve at the bottom similarly undersized. It's like, instead of a cool fire hose attachment, or at least a garden hose like the other guys have, WiiU's impressive monolith of a rain barrel laughably pees water out of a drinking-straw-sized hole.
So now, if you're going to wash your car, instead of the usual way of just washing your car and then hosing it down to get the soap off, you have to set the WiiU's puny hose on top of your car, and let it dribble the soap away while you wash. By the time you're done, you won't need to rinse your car. And if you get good at washing your car this way, you might find that the WiiU's massive rain barrel lets you wash several cars in a row without running out of water like the other guys do, especially if you can find a way to have a steady source of water slowly refilling the barrel.
So basically, if you are Nintendo or you adopt the Nintendo way of doing things, then maybe it's good for you, but if you're not, then it's strange and bad.
Gillian Seed
Banned
Could the Wii U run Skyrim? One that plays as good as the 360?
As good as 360? Probably not likely.
I gotta admit my hype for the system has really been deflated. I never expected a beast but this news plus the state of the OS and lack of real account system has me close to cancelling pre-order.
The only reason I am still debating is down to getting the deluxe on amazon for £199.00. If I was paying full price I def would of cancelled.
I love Nintendo and Nintendo games give me memorable experiences but it feels like this will be the wii over again. No doubt we will get amazing Nintendo software but that software needs to be complimented by good 3rd party support and the worry I have is not really 3rd party games being released but the quality of those ports.
With my sons birthday and wii u dropping at the same time I have skipped recent 360 and 3ds releases for the Wii U but just not sure if its worth it right now.
I really thought Nintendo were looking to at a minimum have a system which made sure 3rd party support would on par with the competition.
The only reason I am still debating is down to getting the deluxe on amazon for £199.00. If I was paying full price I def would of cancelled.
I love Nintendo and Nintendo games give me memorable experiences but it feels like this will be the wii over again. No doubt we will get amazing Nintendo software but that software needs to be complimented by good 3rd party support and the worry I have is not really 3rd party games being released but the quality of those ports.
With my sons birthday and wii u dropping at the same time I have skipped recent 360 and 3ds releases for the Wii U but just not sure if its worth it right now.
I really thought Nintendo were looking to at a minimum have a system which made sure 3rd party support would on par with the competition.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
I can try to make a RAM metaphor about buckets of water. NeoGAF loves metaphors.
RAM is like an environmentally-friendly rain barrel. Rain water fills those up, and there's a valve on the bottom, so you can use rain water for various jobs around the house without wasting your supply of clean drinking water.
Well the rain barrel at WiiU's house is four times as big as PS360's! Yay! But the OS has claimed half of it. Let's just say that the wife put a plastic barrier down the inside of the barrel, because she wants to reserve some water for her flowers. Okay, I guess. Damn that's a lot of flower watering. But it's still a huge barrel, so who cares. But also, the opening for water catching at the top of WiiU's barrel is half as large as PS360's openings are, so for all it's capacity, it only collects water half as fast. And the valve at the bottom similarly undersized. It's like, instead of a cool fire hose attachment, or at least a garden hose like the other guys have, WiiU's impressive monolith of a rain barrel laughably pees water out of a drinking-straw-sized hole.
So now, if you're going to wash your car, instead of the usual way of just washing your car and then hosing it down to get the soap off, you have to set the WiiU's puny hose on top of your car, and let it dribble the soap away while you wash. By the time you're done, you won't need to rinse your car. And if you get good at washing your car this way, you might find that the WiiU's massive rain barrel lets you wash several cars in a row without running out of water like the other guys do, especially if you can find a way to have a steady source of water slowly refilling the barrel.
So basically, if you are Nintendo or you adopt the Nintendo way of doing things, then maybe it's good for you, but if you're not, then it's strange and bad.
LOL! Thanks. I think I understand now.
Well, I hope it can match PS3 version's perfomance at least.
IcyRhythms
Member
Damn, just got out of bed and looked through this thread a bit. What a mess
Some of you making the claims that 1080p WILL absolutely be the standard next generation are going to be very disappointed I'm afraid. Take a look around. A lot the best games from this generation run at resolutions below 720p, 640p, 540p etc....
Developers will once again sacrifice a higher resolution and 60FPS for 30FPS and higher poly counts. If you're a console ONLY gamer, I'm not sure how you can be disappointed with these Wii U specs. Consoles bring some great exclusives to the table, but the tech behind them is mediocre. If we buy a console, we have signed an unwritten agreement to accept mediocrity and hope for talented developers to take advantage of what's in front of them.
Some of you making the claims that 1080p WILL absolutely be the standard next generation are going to be very disappointed I'm afraid. Take a look around. A lot the best games from this generation run at resolutions below 720p, 640p, 540p etc....
Developers will once again sacrifice a higher resolution and 60FPS for 30FPS and higher poly counts. If you're a console ONLY gamer, I'm not sure how you can be disappointed with these Wii U specs. Consoles bring some great exclusives to the table, but the tech behind them is mediocre. If we buy a console, we have signed an unwritten agreement to accept mediocrity and hope for talented developers to take advantage of what's in front of them.
Can you give a breakdown of why you think this? I'm curious to know why Skyrim would be handicapped on the Wii U based on memory bandwidth alone.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Graphically the WiiU has everything needed to match or exceed the 360 version in terms of GPU and RAM, trouble is the WiiU has a weak CPU, weaker than the 360's, and the engine Bethesda uses is very CPU dependant.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
If the PS3 version was a slideshow, I have no clue what Bethesda would do with a WiiU port
Clip Art?
Dual channel is PC only and means that 2 DIMMs are working together to double the bus width.
Each DIMM is 64Bit, Dual channel means that they act as a 128Bit bus.
Basileus777
Member
This is overstated, most games this gen run at 720p.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
In terms of rendering? Not really.
IcyRhythms
Member
Sorry this is a bit off topic, but how does the Wii U's CPU compare to the 360s? Is it dramatically slower, or just a bit?
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Lol..it's only taken Microsoft 7yrs to deliver a HALO game that runs at native 720p with some AA thrown in.
Resolution was the first thing sacrificed by developers when delivering playable frame rates...and it will be the first thing to go on the next gen as well.
A lot of the problem with Skyrim, from what I understand, was how the PS3 ram was divided and used, and how Bethesda's use of Gamebryo was designed around the 360. So at least it can store more of the data it needs, but I half expect loading times for the whole game take much longer instead of the late game choking that's on PS3.
Actually they do. Just google 'B3D native rendering resolutions'.
It's true most games are 720p, despite the constant railing against that. Lots aren't, that doesn't mean most aren't though.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46241
so why do modern GPUs have massive bandwidth if optimal coding doesn't require it? Just to brute force some stuff?
We won't know specifically until someone does an x-ray of the CPU.
IcyRhythms
Member
Right, I've seen that list many times. As previously stated by myself and others, a lot of the best games this generation are at a lower resolution than 720p. I never made the claim of most. Only a lot
brain_stew
Member
All leaked internal documents refer to it as as "MEM1." Its always been my impression that the CPU had full access to the eDRAM pool.
I don't really understand all this "WiiU only has 2x RAM of 360 and PS3." It has 4x but people point out that the OS takes up half... yet they ignore the OS of 360 and PS3. "They have a small footprint especially now that they've been optimized over the years."
...Is it not possible for Nintendo to reduce how much RAM the WiiU OS uses? I thought they often "unlock the full power of the system" long after they launch a console.
In the same vein, is it possible for Nintendo to OC the WiiU to enhance power?
...Is it not possible for Nintendo to reduce how much RAM the WiiU OS uses? I thought they often "unlock the full power of the system" long after they launch a console.
In the same vein, is it possible for Nintendo to OC the WiiU to enhance power?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Opus Angelorum
Member
@SmokeMaxX
It's the speed of the memory that's the issue, not how much is available.
It's the speed of the memory that's the issue, not how much is available.
Sure they can reduce OS footprint, but for now you have browser access directly from games and that feature will always require more free ram than all the other features combined.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
No one can be sure until/if someone leaks the full and final specs, but it's seems certain that it isn't matching the 3.2Ghz clock rate and doesn't have 2 threads per core, and as we now know, slower RAM bandwidth.
The WiiU's CPU is basically a refined,higher clocked, 3 cores, design of what they've been using since the Gamecube.
grimshawish
Banned
So...higher RAM must have a benefit right? So whats the benefit of that 2GB of RAM if the speed is so fucking constrained?
Won't it basically be out of the box PS3 memory issues :/
Won't it basically be out of the box PS3 memory issues :/
Most as in mostly Call of Duty?
Quality is subjective, but okay, let's do Gamerankings' 15 highest rated 360 games.
The Orange Box - 720p
GTA4 - 720p
Mass Effect 2 - 720p
Skyrim - 720p
BioShock - 720p
Portal 2 - 720p
RDR - 720p
CoD4 - 600p
Batman AC - 720p
Gears 1 - 720p
Oblivion - 720p
Halo 3 - 640p
Street Fighter 4 - 720p
CoD:MW2 - 600p
Gears 2 - 720p
So no, not many of the best, at all.
Right now it is only 1 GB for games. That may change in future but still is weak as fuck imo.
Well the speed obviously can't be the only problem because then 512mb of a slightly faster speed would always be better than 16gb of a slightly slower speed and that doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, but will that really require 1Gb in the future? I think the code is just heavily unoptomized.
Also- shot in the dark here, but is it possible that the flash memory could play a part in the speed of the system? I don't know exactly how it works, but on PCs, you have the option of letting flash drives "readyboost" your computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost
Yeah, optimizing and shrinking the OS to the point games get most of the 2 GB definitely seems possible and HAS happened with the PS3 (I think it was 100+ MB originally?), but OCing the system? Closest you'll ever get to that is what the PSP did, UNDERclocking the system until Sony gave the word to use it at full speed. And that's more likely to be something on the 3DS no one knows about than on a console, where battery life optimization is a complete non-issue.
I think it's like having a DEEP fridge but small doors versus a very wide fridge that doesn't go as far back. You can get way more stuff in the former, but it'll take longer and be more of a pain to get stuff in the back out. If you arrange smartly however you can make really good use of that fridge.
Rising_Hei
Member
No. Just no, that only happened often with some big AAA 360 exclusives, and it looks like it that isn't happening anymore
What you missed in your statement is multitasking. Wii U is multitasking console which require a lot of Ram to do those things.
It doesn't mean OS is taking 1GB. It may be even small like 200mb but system need those unused ram because there must be empty space for all your apps you will switch on.
In same manner Vita is also devided. IT has 512mb ram memory for aps and os and 128vram for games. But it doesn't mean vita is is 512mb.
So your idea about shrinking OS is rather pointeless. 1GB is probably strickt system devide by firmware. So 1GB for system and apps and 1GB for games. In case when they will shrink OS they may increase MB for games but don't think it will be more than 50-100MB.
grimshawish
Banned
Thanks for the explanation, yeah I suppose that makes sense.
Basically this is the usual Nintendo suiting themselves then?
Thinking about Nintendo games its difficult to think of anything needing anything out the fridge quickly.
So basically you'd run a bunch of memory that can be fetched but only so much can be fetched at once? Am not sure of the pad has shown itself enough to make all this worth it frankly; guess we'll see what Retro's engine is like anyway.
Basically second party engines are out of the question; and devs will have to put a good effort in getting their own engines to work with it.
Certainly this is no porting machine. Whether it has third party support will come down to how successful it is, and ofc the profitability compared to the other consoles.
Nintendo really need to expand with a new studio though if their going to do this all themselves.
Since some people keep harping the eDRAM as the savior, how much will that help against the rumored specs of the Durango/Orbis?
I used to be a Nintendo fanboy up until the Wii came out. When I saw the "Revolution" I called it Madness and concluded that Nintendo left me, I didn't leave Nintendo. Since then I've been on the PS360PC bandwagon.
I used to be a Nintendo fanboy up until the Wii came out. When I saw the "Revolution" I called it Madness and concluded that Nintendo left me, I didn't leave Nintendo. Since then I've been on the PS360PC bandwagon.
The apps aren't actually kept in RAM though, as evident by the current load times. Only daemons are kept in RAM.
If you could store all you need in the 512MB, then yes it would be better.
LOLOLOL.
Readyboost is useless on anything other than the slowest systems and even then it is only good as slightly faster than HDD cache. Flash memory is much, much , much slower than RAM.
MadeInBeats
Banned
I do hope no one is listening to a word this guy says. Blu's flowers will be prize winning with all the rain water and horseshit flying round here.
Eteric Rice
Member
I really don't see them using slower RAM just because of costs. Nintendo always seemed to like fast RAM.
Is there any way they could offset the effect of the slower RAM?
Is there any way they could offset the effect of the slower RAM?
grimshawish
Banned
We'll see. Its not going to be what some expect but it'll be reasonably impressive.
I wonder though if PC will move ahead mainstream wise (e.g. not a £1,200 box
) quicker though than most gens. Depends if the PC market is able to replicate it quickly - we'll see.I think they should be alright though. Though this depends on lessons from last gen - and well Sony is Sony and Microsoft is all over the place atm busy having some weird mid-life crisis.