H_Prestige
Banned
I'm surprised that comment isn't getting any attention. Instead everyone was drawn in by that BS from dual pixels.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
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I'm surprised that comment isn't getting any attention. Instead everyone was drawn in by that BS from dual pixels.
You actually think 2014 mobile GPUs will be as powerful as current gen consoles? Are you counting laptop GPUs or just what we see in tablets and phones?
The rest of your post is equally questionable. No matter what MS or Sony do, the PS4/720 will be obsolete out of the gate. However that doesn't really matter. PCs now are 10X+ more powerful than the PS360, but we don't see publishers leaving the consoles for PC exclusives.
It's no wonder why your posts are a bannable offense in other forums.
Tripolygon
Banned
The WiiU uses a gyro, an accelerometer, a magnetometer and infrared, the same sensors that are currently in the PS Move except infrared. The patent in question contains far more tracking sensors than both WiiU and PS Move. The patent shows an Accelerometer, Gyro, Magnetometer, Infrared, RBG Camera and Ultrasound. The ball on the PS Move helps PS3 know its position in Z space and can be eliminated if the PS Eye 2 can track the controller position or the person ala Kinect. The ball was needed because PS Eye is just an RGB camera and can track a defined color better. What's better to use than a glowing ball that can change color?
Graphics Horse
Member
The WiiU uses a gyro, an accelerometer, a magnetometer and infrared, the same sensors that are currently in the PS Move except infrared. The patent in question contains far more tracking sensors than both WiiU and PS Move.
1. Accelerometer
2. Gyro
3. Magnetometer
4. Infrared
5. RGB Camera
6. Ultrasound
I think the text [0119] suggests those might never all end up in a real unit together, they're just throwing in all the options and saying other implementations might use a subset of those features.
Anyway most of the patent has the hardware inside the controller rather than inside that attachable ball.
In terms of given GFLOPS numbers, weren't there console level notebook gpus about 2 years after the consoles came out? So I don't get it either. They will get superseded pretty fast, but that's just consoles for ya.
He just stating that the next gen systems will not be gpu heavy. Pretty much shooting down the nonsense that the ps4/720 would be like the wiiu. Putting in a weak CPU and then using the gpu to make up for it. Like that is a good option...lol.
I hope sony/ms see the massive backlash on the wiiu specs and dont cut back. Anything less than 2t will be a huge disappointment.
Tripolygon
Banned
Yes I know that, I was pointing out that PS Move has exact same sensors as WiiU bar infrared. One extra sensor, more likely an infrared sensor and least likely ultrasound and RBG camera can be added to further improve its accuracy while still using the new PS Eye which will most likely work like kinect to track the controller in Z space eliminating the need for the ball on top.
Graphics Horse
Member
The picture you posted is a ball on top. :/ it's a very strange part of the patent. I hope they don't end up with that though, sticking an infra red camera next to the ps eye and a few small I/R LEDs on the controllers (reverse wiimote style, or even a two way wiimote style) seems like a better idea to me.
User Name Here
Member
The WiiU uses a gyro, an accelerometer, a magnetometer and infrared, the same sensors that are currently in the PS Move except infrared. The patent in question contains far more tracking sensors than both WiiU and PS Move. The patent shows an Accelerometer, Gyro, Magnetometer, Infrared, RBG Camera and Ultrasound. The ball on the PS Move helps PS3 know its position in Z space and can be eliminated if the PS Eye 2 can track the controller position or the person ala Kinect. The ball was needed because PS Eye is just an RGB camera and can track a defined color better. What's better to use than a glowing ball that can change color?
That's not from the old patent? That looks like what was posted here a while before the Move released.
Who here agrees with this?
Edit: This is from a top rated comment on this video Next Gen Xbox Coming in November 2013? - Inside Gaming Daily 11/30/12
SniperHunter
Banned
Last of Us looks pretty good
At the end of the day, God of War Ascension will look better, maybe Beyond too
At the end of the day, God of War Ascension will look better, maybe Beyond too
Dat Unrealized Potential
So I guess that quote seems to have a bit of truth to it then
Last of Us looks pretty good
At the end of the day, God of War Ascension will look better, maybe Beyond too
Although those games look very good, they're not something far off from say Uncharted or God of War 3, except Beyond.
jeff_rigby
Banned
RE:
I think we need to re-read the Semiaccurate article on the PS4 again. I've already shown parts of it have support from multiple industry slide shows and PDFs. The only thing not supported in a meaningful way is the FPGA he mentions.
I suspect if he is accurate that FPGA will give the PS4 legs to compete with PCs even though they will be more powerful.
By no stretch can Jaguar CPUs be considered significant things happening with their processor architectures.http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44885833&postcount=1229 said:
Yeah, considering the next generation game engines will be CPU bound it's interesting.
I think we need to re-read the Semiaccurate article on the PS4 again. I've already shown parts of it have support from multiple industry slide shows and PDFs. The only thing not supported in a meaningful way is the FPGA he mentions.
I suspect if he is accurate that FPGA will give the PS4 legs to compete with PCs even though they will be more powerful.
Multiple jaguar cores plus decent GPU optimised for GPUPU activities being used for stream processing suited tasks like an extension of the PS3 SPEs, as suggested by StevieP, would be an interesting choice of architecture. I'd perhaps argue that it isn't necessarily unique, being more like a logical progression of CELL, but I think it'd suit consoles really well. You simply don't need significant standard processing capabilities like a normal computer - CELL has shown than optimising CPU architecture for the tasks commonly needed for games can reap benefits.
I don't think so. For all of its flaws, kinect was a massive leap forward in terms of commercial 3D motion tracking software. I don't think that sony's software engineers can compete, wich is why they will double down on something like move + VR type enhancements like eye tracking rather than go MSs route of controllerless gaming.
Canis lupus
Member
An engineer driven tech company like Sony can't compete?
jeff_rigby
Banned
leroidys: said:
I don't think he realizes the IR spot system of Kinect 1 will not work well with high resolution. Microsoft has to start all over again. Example; eye tracking requires high resolution IR video and detection not movement against IR spots. Lots of things were not possible because of the low bandwidth USB2 and lack of memory in Xbox 360 and PS3. Both are starting over with high resolution IR depth cameras. What I
FatalMuzza
Banned
While talking about pricing. It would seem to me MS have a hell of a lot more leeway to subsidise on the price of the console. Live will be subscription as expected, and on top of that the service has grown substantially and MS will be geting a good cut from video and music on demand services too boot.
Does Sony have the same flexibility?
At launch we may see a substantially better bang for the buck kit from MS. I.e. a more powerful console for the same price, similar specs for cheaper -or- similar specs + Kinect 2.0 for equivlent dollar. Things arn't going to be easy for Sony.
Does Sony have the same flexibility?
At launch we may see a substantially better bang for the buck kit from MS. I.e. a more powerful console for the same price, similar specs for cheaper -or- similar specs + Kinect 2.0 for equivlent dollar. Things arn't going to be easy for Sony.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I think everyone needs to read this: Cell is no longer HPC material Nov 2009
Sony cell Multi-Processor-Architecture patent August 2010
Sony filed a patent for a Method and apparatus for achieving multiple processing configurations using a Multi-processor System Architecture.
Let Me rephrase that; Sony patented a 1PPU and 4SPU module with cache that could be combined with Cache crossover switch into a 4 module HSA Cell (Figure 7). The PS3 cell design could NOT be included in a AMD HSA SOC but the 1PPU 4SPU modules in the patent could be, may still be in a PS4.
Now with AMD HSA and reading how the 4 X86 CPUs in a AMD fusion are connected to cache and memory we see the same crossover switch as in this patent to connect 4 (1PPU+4SPUs) modules. Further, it appears that Sony was taking the same approach with "Building blocks" that could be used in multiple applications and platforms as AMD is doing with the Consortium and 3D/2.5D stacking.
The Fusion APU rumored in Developer platforms is nearly identical in CPU performance to the 4PPU 16SPU (figure 7). That tells us that CPU performance for next generation was chosen early on (by both AMD and Sony) to support a CPU bound next generation (UE4) in addition to older GPU bound depending on the second GPU performance.
Edit: In reading the Sony patent, the "PPU is a new ground up implementation of core with extended pipelines to achieve a low FO4 to match the SPUs." IBM and Sony must have been working on improving the PPU to work with SPUs in 2010.
It's possible for SPUs to show up in the PS4 in some form but only if they have a advantage over Jaguar CPUs that could be used in a game console SoC and if it's economically practical. As of 2010 Sony was researching Cell for PS4, this is after IBM had decided GPUs were better for HPC.
Sony cell Multi-Processor-Architecture patent August 2010
Sony filed a patent for a Method and apparatus for achieving multiple processing configurations using a Multi-processor System Architecture.
Let Me rephrase that; Sony patented a 1PPU and 4SPU module with cache that could be combined with Cache crossover switch into a 4 module HSA Cell (Figure 7). The PS3 cell design could NOT be included in a AMD HSA SOC but the 1PPU 4SPU modules in the patent could be, may still be in a PS4.
Now with AMD HSA and reading how the 4 X86 CPUs in a AMD fusion are connected to cache and memory we see the same crossover switch as in this patent to connect 4 (1PPU+4SPUs) modules. Further, it appears that Sony was taking the same approach with "Building blocks" that could be used in multiple applications and platforms as AMD is doing with the Consortium and 3D/2.5D stacking.
The Fusion APU rumored in Developer platforms is nearly identical in CPU performance to the 4PPU 16SPU (figure 7). That tells us that CPU performance for next generation was chosen early on (by both AMD and Sony) to support a CPU bound next generation (UE4) in addition to older GPU bound depending on the second GPU performance.
Edit: In reading the Sony patent, the "PPU is a new ground up implementation of core with extended pipelines to achieve a low FO4 to match the SPUs." IBM and Sony must have been working on improving the PPU to work with SPUs in 2010.
It's possible for SPUs to show up in the PS4 in some form but only if they have a advantage over Jaguar CPUs that could be used in a game console SoC and if it's economically practical. As of 2010 Sony was researching Cell for PS4, this is after IBM had decided GPUs were better for HPC.
Knux-Future
Banned
Sony has a chance to provide a badass launch list.
Uncharted 4/ Naughty Dogs new game.
Suckerpunch's new game
LPB3
Some new exclusive
Of course not all of these will be there but they got a shot.
But then again so does Micrososft, since they have shut down current gen production it seems.
Whatever the system seller will be, is what going to be might decided who gets out the gates the fasted.
Would a next gen COD be what Microsoft will depend on? Halo 5 probably isn't ready. So it is interesting to see what Microsoft does here.
Sony can use established IPs and developers but are any of them a system seller? To be Square shat the bed this gen, because Versus(lol) could have been that.
E3 will be awesome.
But I wonder will better graphics be enough to sell these systems? Sure to us, it will but to Joe Blow out there.
Uncharted 4/ Naughty Dogs new game.
Suckerpunch's new game
LPB3
Some new exclusive
Of course not all of these will be there but they got a shot.
But then again so does Micrososft, since they have shut down current gen production it seems.
Whatever the system seller will be, is what going to be might decided who gets out the gates the fasted.
Would a next gen COD be what Microsoft will depend on? Halo 5 probably isn't ready. So it is interesting to see what Microsoft does here.
Sony can use established IPs and developers but are any of them a system seller? To be Square shat the bed this gen, because Versus(lol) could have been that.
E3 will be awesome.
But I wonder will better graphics be enough to sell these systems? Sure to us, it will but to Joe Blow out there.
Uncharted , God of war and gran turismo should do the job but obviously yearly mega sellers like fifa , cod etc will be promoted on the new box with new features and their 360/ps3 versions will be gimped, heck even pc version of fifa were ps2 ports for 4 years and lacked lots of feature etc.
Chuck Norris
Banned
You talk about bang for your buck while saying MS will be able to subsidize by charging for lIve? Come now son
dragonelite
Member
Joe Blow will just ride with the hype wave seeing gamers around him purchasing and hearing it at work. The hype will convert Joe Blow into day one adapter.....
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Interesting tweet by marcan. About Durango but I assume similar will be true for Orbis?
If this is true are we looking at it being underpowered or 16 cores or much better than expected GPU or what?
https://twitter.com/marcan42
marcan said:
If this is true are we looking at it being underpowered or 16 cores or much better than expected GPU or what?
https://twitter.com/marcan42
This lines up with a really old rumor. 8 cores at 1.6 GHz for Durango. I'm pretty sure they're using a more custom part for the CPU than the PS4 will.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
i don't doubt that the cpu will probably not be the main focus of these consoles, but the amount of ram and the gpu inside them will be key. i believe some sony exec already commented that bandwidth is key for them in the next-generation.
But, orbis/durango will have CPU's with modern architectures, optimized for greatness. 4 cores/8threads at ~1.5-2ghz will be enough to drive nextgen games which will most likely be GPU centric.
Is the Durago OoO as well? What's with the drop of speed?
jeff_rigby
Banned
1.6 Ghz is the Jaguar CPU clock speed in a Kabini SoC. Jaguar does not have to run at 1.6Ghz but I suspect to have the best energy efficiency the CPU packages will run at a base frequency of 1.6 but can run in turbo mode at something like 800 Mhz faster.
This is supporting a Kabini like SoC for a Notebook power range as least as far as the CPUs in the APU. Are their other CPUs that run at 1.6Ghz besides Jaguar?
UE4 is CPU centric, UE3 is GPU centric.DieH@rd said:
"The Fusion A8 APU rumored in Developer platforms is nearly identical in CPU performance to the 4PPU 16SPU (figure 7). That tells us that CPU performance for next generation was chosen early on (by both AMD and Sony) to support a CPU bound next generation (UE4) in addition to older GPU bound depending on the second GPU performance. "
And if Jaguar at 1.6 Ghz it's probably a low power wafer process which could be 20nm but could not include Cell SPUs at 3.2 Ghz unless they are made on SOI and 2.5 or 3D attached to the Kabini like SoC chip.
$799 US Dollars
For PS4 I'm expecting 4 cores, downclocked 8850 GPU integrated into an APU setup, and 4-6gigs of high bandwidth RAM.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Yeah I do think there is much ado about nothing re: the WiiU's 1.25Ghz furore.
If the CPUs do come in a lot lower Ghz than 360/PS3, forums are going to be a blood bath. Sony/MS will have to bring some juicy (real) demos/trailers to convince people specs really don't mean nothing.
If the CPUs do come in a lot lower Ghz than 360/PS3, forums are going to be a blood bath. Sony/MS will have to bring some juicy (real) demos/trailers to convince people specs really don't mean nothing.
The Wii U's situation isn't just the clock speed. It's also that it's only 3 cores and has an old architecture. I highly doubt we will see more than 2GHz per core in next gen systems.
So for processors that don't even reach 2Ghz, CPU centric engines are going to work out? How certain are you of this "turbo"? And would having 8 cores and modern design really "more than" compensate for a lack of speed, i.e. half of 3 core CPU at 3.2GHz?
As a layperson, this is beginning to sound more like WiiU situation.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
The only other APUs at that base I could find are A8-3520M and A6-3410MX. Those have turbo core mode of about 1GHz more. They are 32nm though, so probably nothing significant. If we are talking outside APU and SoC, there are of course many CPUs that run at 1.6GHz.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Even if the CPUs are lower it will be more modern .
I don't think people should be worry .
I think you are contradicting your self. Why would a cpu centric engine use an apu?
McHuj
Member
if it's true that the WiiU doesn't have a vector unit then that's terrible. People complain about Jaguar cores, but they can still execute 2 vector ops (8 flops total) per cycle. An 8 core 1.6 GHz Jaguar based CPU would be still have theoretical throughput north of a 100 gigaflops, probably a good order of magnitude over the WiiU CPU.
Basically at the same clocks the A6 is slightly slower than Wii U's CPU. This is the only benchmark I've seen of Wii U, but I don't think that more modern than Wii U's CPU is a valid point atm.
jeff_rigby
Banned
So if we are sure of the clock speed it looks like a low power wafer process and if AMD most likely a APU fusion using Jaguar CPUs. GCN next allows the GPU to do CPU duties better than older GPU designs so if Jaguar and GCN GPU no worries about most CPU code.Rösti;44949462 said:
Low power process wafers may be why Cell SPUs won't make it into next generation and why BC is not happening, same applies to Durango as the PPU CPUs in Xbox 360 also have to run at 3.2 Ghz and that is difficult for them if on low power/performance wafer process not SOI.
Probability of 20nm on low power goes up and BC goes down. Probability of more CU units (larger GPU) goes up as does 2014 full HSA SoC custom design.
Remember we are still guessing based on rumors.
We practically have nothing confirmed yet. Nothing except that AMD is making the most important parts of both consoles.
So far, it is belived that PS4 will have AMD APU [4core/8threads, gpu with around 2TFlops]. Ammount of ram is undecided. No dedicated GPU, no split ram pools, no multiple HDMI ports.
But... we dont know anything specific. Same goes for X720, who will have more complicated structure [low powered ARM SoC, High powered gaming APU, maybe even dedicated GPU, shitton of ram dedicated for OS].
So far, it is belived that PS4 will have AMD APU [4core/8threads, gpu with around 2TFlops]. Ammount of ram is undecided. No dedicated GPU, no split ram pools, no multiple HDMI ports.
er em... op? No seriously.
So far, it is belived that PS4 will have AMD APU [4core/8threads, gpu with around 2TFlops]. Ammount of ram is undecided. No dedicated GPU, no split ram pools, no multiple HDMI ports.
But... we dont know anything specific. Same goes for X720, who will have more complicated structure [low powered ARM SoC, High powered gaming APU, maybe even dedicated GPU, shitton of ram dedicated for OS].
thanks
Sorry i thought it was old and outdated.
gundamkyoukai
Member
So far, it is belived that PS4 will have AMD APU [4core/8threads, gpu with around 2TFlops]. Ammount of ram is undecided. No dedicated GPU, no split ram pools, no multiple HDMI ports.
But... we dont know anything specific. Same goes for X720, who will have more complicated structure [low powered ARM SoC, High powered gaming APU, maybe even dedicated GPU, shitton of ram dedicated for OS].
We had heard rumors that the PS4 will have a dedicated GPU .