Support NeoGAF

[mrklaw]

I don't see how they can pull off eye tracking. At normal living room TV distances, the angle of movement of the eye would be tiny. Add in dark rooms (especially for cameras), dark coloured eyes and its just difficult.

And for what benefit? Kinect style navigation? 'Stare at this area of the screen to select options'? No thanks.

 

[gofreak]

And for what benefit? Kinect style navigation? 'Stare at this area of the screen to select options'? No thanks.

That'd be a bit silly.

Presumably we're not talking about an eye-tracking-only, controller-less system. "blink twice to select!"

For navigation it could presumably be used to look at something and then hit a button on your controller to select it. Like a mouse, in terms of fast aim and select.

I share skepticism about the state of the art for living room distance tracking of very subtle and fast movements, though. IF it did work ideally though, I think it could be pretty awesome. Big if though.

 

[yurinka]

I don't see how they can pull off eye tracking. At normal living room TV distances, the angle of movement of the eye would be tiny. Add in dark rooms (especially for cameras), dark coloured eyes and its just difficult.

And for what benefit? Kinect style navigation? 'Stare at this area of the screen to select options'? No thanks.

Sony had a great eyetracking tech thanks to their photocameras division. In PS3 it was used for head tracking, useful to tweak the camera in racing games by moving your head (Gran Turismo 5) or to track where your head is if needed in Move games.

Other than that I wouldn't know where to use it.

 

[gofreak]

Sony had a great eyetracking tech thanks to their photocameras division. In PS3 it was used for head tracking, useful to tweak the camera in racing games by moving your head (Gran Turismo 5) or to track where your head is if needed in Move games.

Detecting where an eye is (ala their cameras), and what an eye is looking at, are two different kettles of fish though.

It would be easier to do if a HMD was standard, of course But doing it passively, from a distance....well, I don't know, I'm not au fait with the domain, but it seems like you'd need some voodoo for that.

 

[yurinka]

btw in the leaked x720 doc appeared something like this:
http://www.gizmag.com/sony-holodeck-playstation-move-eyetoy/20721/
Knowing Sony's tech demo work in markerless AR stuff, can we expect to see it in PS4 too? Or to include a low res projector would be too expensive? Maybe as an optional add-on?
It would be cool, even considering that our rooms aren't a white canvas.

I really hope not

If they make one that gives you the same power than a dedicated one but with lower cost, lower heat and lower consumption why not?

Detecting where an eye is (ala their cameras), and what an eye is looking at, are two different kettles of fish though.

It would be easier to do if a HMD was standard, of course But doing it passively, from a distance....well, I don't know, I'm not au fait with the domain, but it seems like you'd need some voodoo for that.

True

You misunderstand me. Move is my favorite motion control method this gen and seriously impressive. I'm saying that Sony can't/shouldn't compete with Microsoft on 3D motion tracking technique that they have plowed resources into.

There's a PS2 age video where the Eyetoy/PSEye/Move guys were testing a 3D camera with tech demos they made, and perfomed there all the main Kinect and Move tracking stuff.

They discarted to use it basically because it was too expensive, it required too much CPU so it wasn't possible to use it with big normal games and still needed buttons. So they choosed to use instead a better 2D camera (PSEye) and Move to replace Eyetoy.

 

[i-Lo]

Will we see an end to PS3's incapability of properly rendering alpha textures with PS4? The best example of it is GT5 (during rain): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuViKgCO3PA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m10s

 

[Graphics Horse]

Will we see an end to PS3's incapability of properly rendering alpha textures with PS4? The best example of it is GT5 (during rain): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuViKgCO3PA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m10s

Yes, this won't be a big issue with a faster gpu.

The alpha textures draw fine but are just slow, so they choose to draw all the smoke/rain sprites on tiny 256x144 frame and then overlay it on top of the rest of the image, that's what causes the blocky outlines.

 

[RoboPlato]

Will we see an end to PS3's incapability of properly rendering alpha textures with PS4? The best example of it is GT5 (during rain): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuViKgCO3PA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m10s

Guaranteed. Alpha effects processing was something that was dramatically cut down for the RSX because they didn't think it would be used much (same reason stencil shadows have a huge performance hit on modern GPUs). There are already several production ready engines to cross referrence needs with so any GPU nips and tucks will be more thought out this time around.

 

[i-Lo]

Yes, this won't be a big issue with a faster gpu.

The alpha textures draw fine but are just slow, so they choose to draw all the smoke/rain sprites on tiny 256x144 frame and then overlay it on top of the rest of the image, that's what causes the blocky outlines.

Guaranteed. Alpha effects processing was something that was dramatically cut down for the RSX because they didn't think it would be used much (same reason stencil shadows have a huge performance hit on modern GPUs). There are already several production ready engines to cross referrence needs with so any GPU nips and tucks will be more thought out this time around.

Ah, I see.

Btw, does ROPs have any part to play in this? And talking about ROPs in general RSX had 8, half the number of 7800GT. At present most cards have either 48 or 32. Will we see an increase for PS4?

 

[Ravage]

That'd be a bit silly.

Presumably we're not talking about an eye-tracking-only, controller-less system. "blink twice to select!"

For navigation it could presumably be used to look at something and then hit a button on your controller to select it. Like a mouse, in terms of fast aim and select.

I share skepticism about the state of the art for living room distance tracking of very subtle and fast movements, though. IF it did work ideally though, I think it could be pretty awesome. Big if though.

I think it can be quite useful for UI interaction/magnification e.g. magnifying the minimap (at the corner of the screen) when the camera sense you staring at it

 

[jeff_rigby]

Interesting; sweetvar26 posts have been deleted and Proelite who started this thread about NukeZilla Durango leaks has been banned and there are no links in the NeoGAF database if you try to find his posts.

Using NukeZilla as a starting point I found the site that had the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and posted as the last post a link to that find. It was taken down within days of bgassassin starting a thread on NeoGAF about the leak.

Is speculation getting too close to the mark? Will bgassassin and I be next.....Stay tuned

 

[androvsky]

If I were to guess, Proelite was likely banned due to bumping an old thread to gloat over being right about something. That's based on his recent post history, that I had no trouble loading.

edit: and not an epic right about something like the Mortal Kombat vs. DC thread was.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Proelite[/B] who started this thread about NukeZilla Durango leaks has been banned and there are no links in the NeoGAF database if you try to find his posts.

huh? works for me. Can't find sweetvar26's posts so you might be right there, may have asked them to be removed.

 

[jeff_rigby]

If I were to guess, Proelite was likely banned due to bumping an old thread to gloat over being right about something. That's based on his recent post history, that I had no trouble loading.

edit: and not an epic right about something like the Mortal Kombat vs. DC thread was.

When I tried it there was a database error, I should have waited and tried again. OK, likely you are correct.

 

[LastNac]

Interesting; sweetvar26 posts have been deleted and Proelite who started this thread about NukeZilla Durango leaks has been banned and there are no links in the NeoGAF database if you try to find his posts.

Using NukeZilla as a starting point I found the site that had the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and posted as the last post a link to that find. It was taken down within days of bgassassin starting a thread on NeoGAF about the leak.

Is speculation getting too close to the mark? Will bgassassin and I be next.....Stay tuned

That is some X-Files shit right there...

 

[Reiko]

If I were to guess, Proelite was likely banned due to bumping an old thread to gloat over being right about something. That's based on his recent post history, that I had no trouble loading.

edit: and not an epic right about something like the Mortal Kombat vs. DC thread was.

Yep. It was for the bump:/

 

[Averon]

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20121203PD207.html

AMD reportedly to launch Radeon HD 8000 in 2Q13

AMD reportedly plans to release its Radon HD 8000 series GPUs in the second quarter of 2013 as the company is currently going through a business reorganization to aid its poor performance in the third quarter, according to sources from the upstream supply chain.

AMD originally planned to release the GPU series at the end of the fourth quarter to compete against Nvidia's products.

 

[phosphor112]

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20121203PD207.html

AMD reportedly to launch Radeon HD 8000 in 2Q13

Seriously? I said damn... We'll probably see those 8000's then!

 

[onQ123]

I have a feeling that we will have some new Next Gen Leaks by the end of next week.

 

[Ashes]

I have a feeling that we will have some new Next Gen Leaks by the end of next week.

Is that because of the awards?

 

[onQ123]

Is that because of the awards?

if it's at the awards it's not a leak unless it leak before the awards lol.

 

[pottuvoi]

Ah, I see.

Btw, does ROPs have any part to play in this? And talking about ROPs in general RSX had 8, half the number of 7800GT. At present most cards have either 48 or 32. Will we see an increase for PS4?

If bandwidth isn't a problem the next bottleneck is ROP throughput. (IE. x360)
Yes, we certainly should see improvement on fillrate on ps4.

 

[phosphor112]

I have a feeling that we will have some new Next Gen Leaks by the end of next week.

I hope you're right. You seem to get solid information somehow even though you aren't (from what I know) an insider.

Also, I'm still annoyed that you're a junior.

 

[Ashes]

if it's at the awards it's not a leak unless it leak before the awards lol.

Drunk developers spill more beans.

 

[onQ123]

I hope you're right. You seem to get solid information somehow even though you aren't (from what I know) an insider.

Also, I'm still annoyed that you're a junior.

I've gotten over the junior thing & nope not a insider.

 

[Ashes]

From the wii u technical discussion thread:

I'm pretty sure that on simple task Cell can get near it's maximum performance.


Certainly doesn't sound that bad and would indicate a quite decent throughput. (I would bet that it gets over 50gflops, at least in some cases..

---

It really is a shame there are no rumours on what is to happen to the spus except to suggest that they have been abandoned.

 

[Reiko]

Will we see an end to PS3's incapability of properly rendering alpha textures with PS4? The best example of it is GT5 (during rain): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuViKgCO3PA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m10s

Of course. That was the fault of the RSX.

 

[onQ123]

From the wii u technical discussion thread:


---

It really is a shame there are no rumours on what is to happen to the spus except to suggest that they have been abandoned.

GPGPUs is what happened to the SPUs.

 

[shinobi602]

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20121203PD207.html

AMD reportedly to launch Radeon HD 8000 in 2Q13

So what does this mean for next gen consoles?

 

[Ashes]

GPGPUs is what happened to the SPUs.

Yeah. I guess so.

 

[pottuvoi]

Of course. That was the fault of the RSX.

Lack of bandwidth to RSX was bigger problem than the RSX itself.

 

[Log4Girlz]

So what does this mean for next gen consoles?

It means the hardware will be obsolete even before it releases. But that's ok.

 

[z0m3le]

So what does this mean for next gen consoles?

Depends, GCN might be better with GPGPU tasks than HD 8000 series, so it might be a good thing that Microsoft and Sony are avoiding it. One of the reasons Nvidia's 600 series performs so well with graphics in a smaller package is because it's horrible for GPGPU, their 500 series was much better at those tasks.

That is to say that if AMD wants to out perform HD7000 in wattage and die area, they might need to pull back on GPGPU, and wait for the die shrink before moving beyond GCN's capabilities, this is just my guess though. They might of found a way to bring both graphics performance and compute performance forward inside the same wattage and die area, but I've seen no Sea Islands breakdowns yet, so I can only assume they will tilt the balancing act that GCN has, to increase one over the other.

 

[phosphor112]

It means the hardware will be obsolete even before it releases. But that's ok.

What makes you say that? If it is ready for market by Q2 2013, why can't it be in consoles by Q4 2013?

 

[subversus]

What makes you say that? If it is ready for market by Q2 2013, why can't it be in consoles by Q4 2013?

obsolete =/ the latest gen omg

 

[Ashes]

What makes you say that? If it is ready for market by Q2 2013, why can't it be in consoles by Q4 2013?

It's log.

 

[leroidys]

I hope you're right. You seem to get solid information somehow even though you aren't (from what I know) an insider.

Also, I'm still annoyed that you're a junior.

Agreed, always thought onQ123 made good topics. Modding on the gaming side can be maddening.

 

[z0m3le]

What makes you say that? If it is ready for market by Q2 2013, why can't it be in consoles by Q4 2013?

It could be, but PS3 lacked Nvidia's 8000 series even though that card launched in the same year. So there is little reason at the moment to assume these consoles will move away from HD 7000's GCN and what they currently have in their dev kits are HD 7000 cards, but that indeed could change.

 

[jaosobno]

What makes you say that? If it is ready for market by Q2 2013, why can't it be in consoles by Q4 2013?

Well if that Semiaccurate leak is to be trusted, for X720 to make it Q4 2013. launch date, production has to start by late February 2013. If they can modify and fit Sea Islands (presuming there will be a discrete GPU) inside the system until then, it's a done deal. However, I doubt this will happen (unless AMD has Sea Islands ready for Microsoft and Sony much much sooner, before commercial launch) and we will probably have Southern Islands (7xxx series) inside.

 

[Razgreez]

It could be, but PS3 lacked Nvidia's 8000 series even though that card launched in the same year. So there is little reason at the moment to assume these consoles will move away from HD 7000's GCN and what they currently have in their dev kits are HD 7000 cards, but that indeed could change.

It's difficult comparing Nvidia's support with AMD's though. One is the market leader and makes its own terms. The other is struggling and trying to please its customers are much as possible

 

[z0m3le]

It's difficult comparing Nvidia's support with AMD's though. One is the market leader and makes its own terms. The other is struggling and trying to please its customers are much as possible

Yeah, those consoles could end up with HD 8000, right now they are using HD 7970 and at the beginning of the year, they should have final silicon done, and could start putting out final dev kits before E3, but as I mentioned HD 7000 might have a GPGPU advantage over HD 8000, and just because it's newer, doesn't mean HD 8000 is guaranteed for the consoles either.

At this point, it's easier to assume that it is HD 7000 or some custom part that fits somewhere inbetween (this would fit with Xenos better btw)

 

[RaijinFY]

Lack of bandwidth to RSX was bigger problem than the RSX itself.

Well, the RSX itself wasnt all that good to be honest...

 

[bigtroyjon]

So Arthur Gies has been making some posts over the last week dropping info that he knows about future consoles. Thought it would be interesting to discuss in here as opposed to the Wii U threads these posts are buried in. Probably a good idea to not make a new thread about this and risk having him just stop posting on GAF because his spot got blown up.

The next Xbox and PlayStation are not "GPU-centric." There are pretty significant things happening with their processor architectures. And at least for Durango, it's not using off the shelf kit, contrary to what many GAF posters have insisted. Even more troublesome for the Wii U, they have much more dedicated GPGPU capabilities which aren't happening on the dedicated GPUs they're packing.

I am almost one hundred percent positive that Microsoft at least will own the design to their silicon. They did with the 360 after getting burned on the Xbox. Also, the chipset in Durango is not off-the-shelf kit.

I've spent the last year talking to publishers and developers off the record. They've been waiting for Durango in particular. There are things they want to do that they haven't been able to pull off, and many feel that the shrinkage in the market is due to hardware stagnation. The big guys and popular developers that haven't already gone iOS are hitching their wagons to Durango in a big, big way. Which terrifies them, by the way. They are not in any way sure that it's going to turn things around, business wise.

I'm not saying the next Playstation isn't part of the equation, but they've seemed much less clear as to what it will even be. Granted, I haven't talked to everyone, obviously.

And I'm telling you that i'm of the opinion that Durango launch games will look better than just about anything that ever comes out for the Wii U from a technical perspective (I can't account for differences in taste). And your estimation of the power difference between the next Xbox and the Wii U is considerably lower than the estimates of the tech inside of Microsoft's next console that I've heard. It's not going to be a quad-core system, and the GPU will in all likelihood run circles around the GPU in the Wii U.

I know that if Durango is under-powered this will look stupid in a year, but I wouldn't be posting about it unless I was very, very sure.

 

[Reiko]

Lack of bandwidth to RSX was bigger problem than the RSX itself.

It was a dumb thing to take away bandwidth coming from the PS2.

 

[systemfehler]

AMD is not really known for a earlier than planned launch. I do hope they did not have to make amends to the initial HD8000 design just to launch earlier to compete with NVIDIA.

 

[jaosobno]

So Arthur Gies has been making some posts over the last week dropping info that he knows about future consoles. Thought it would be interesting to discuss in here as opposed to the Wii U threads these posts are buried in. Probably a good idea to not make a new thread about this and risk having him just stop posting on GAF because his spot got blown up.

I'm not saying the next Playstation isn't part of the equation, but they've seemed much less clear as to what it will even be. Granted, I haven't talked to everyone, obviously.

So could we interpret this as Microsoft having clearer direction in both hardware and service design than Sony?

 

[hodgy100]

I will truly laugh in despair if sony goes from having a 3.2 ghz processor to a one that is less than half that.

I hope the team at polyphony and kaz somehow have a say on the specs of the system instead of the clowns who run SCEI

it doesn't work like that! This should be in ever tech thread OP!!

Clock speed for the most part doesnt mean much when comparing different CPU architectures for example the Wii U's 3 core Out of order 1.2ghz CPU is roughly on par with the Xbox 360's 3 core 3.2Ghz CPU this is because of the difference in architecture.

you can however compare CPU's of the same architecture using clock speed a 3.5ghz Core i5 is definitely faster than a 2.4ghz i5 for example.

it is highly likely that Sony will go with a clock speed between 2 -3 ghz to save on power usage and to lower heat dissipation it may mean that we get reliable consoles again when compared to this gen!

even if sony went with a really slow cpu, its quite possible that it could outperform the cell

 

[Reiko]

So could we interpret this as Microsoft having clearer direction in both hardware and service design than Sony?

Hardware design is a no brainer... They are the brainchilds behind DX11...

And also the guys behind RROD.

 

[gofreak]

So could we interpret this as Microsoft having clearer direction in both hardware and service design than Sony?

I'd interpret it as Sony's schedule in getting information and tools out to all developers lagging Microsoft's. The comment talks about things he heard 'over the past year' - so depending on who he was talking to and when, different people might well have been in the loop on 720 at certain points but not PS4, assuming PS4 is a little behind 720 in terms of dev kit distribution, 'education'/training etc.

 

[z0m3le]

So could we interpret this as Microsoft having clearer direction in both hardware and service design than Sony?

You can take it as a repeat of this generation from Microsoft's perspective. If you want the definitive version of all of these games, XB720 is the console to buy, at least unless you own a high powered PC.

It likely means that they will then port (sort of as an afterthought) to PS4, which means an extension of your experience with the PS3.

Also he is likely referring to the 8 core rumor from before, which means PS4 might have a hard time getting ports if CPU is intensively used... A lot of this is unclear but these consoles might not be much like each other. Especially if Microsoft is going with 8 cores at 1.6GHz and 16 threads, while PS4 is going with a quad core with 4 threads (AMD's designs limit them to 1 thread per core) But if they really do stick with A10, they could at least have possibly more powerful cores.

We will likely know a lot more soon, I've been starting to hear rumors of announcements coming, there is CES soon, and that could be a place where they announce their consoles, GDC is not too far beyond that, but for certain by E3 we should know a lot more than we did about Wii U last year at that time.