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Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"

Foffy

Banned
I don't know, I mean, it's been a long time since I've played through the old ones, but King's Field III is definitely my favorite of the old school bunch. I think I'm totally due for replays of each game. If we're just talking about visuals/environments, King's Field III takes the cake. It's not as COMPLETELY grey and brown as the other two games, lol! I think more players could understand where they were in the third game because most areas had a distinct feel/look (from what I remember, at least). Wasn't there like a forest/hedge maze-like area in KF III? Also, there was that cool cliff area with the teleporters. Was King's Field II really more interconnected than III too? Man, I really need to revisit these games again.

And yeah, most (if not all) King's Field games had that metroidvania structure/style that everyone throws around these days. Ancient City, especially, is designed EXTREMELY well. The Ancient City itself acts as a central hub to all of the areas. There's SO many back doors and interconnected areas in King's Field IV, it's crazy cool. Honestly though, I actually always felt like Demon's Souls (especially) was more like Shadow Tower than King's Field. Shadow Tower was more zone/world-ish than "open world" or "metroidvania". Demon's Souls definitely reflects a more Shadow Tower-like philosophy than King's Field, but there's a lot of cross over too.

I do agree that visuals are a massive step up, but as the areas seem more like bridges that either lead to one previous area or one new area, it feels like a linear adventure. Sure, there's optional things to uncover and do, but so much of the game feels like a direct kind of journey, and I personally feel that the quotes made about Dark Souls II have me concerned if it's akin to King's Field III. KF III is good, but so much of the mystery and variety of just exploring is dampened knowing there's about one way forward, and one way back. I've not played IV, or the PSP games, or even the "spin-offs" like the Shadow Tower and Eternal Ring games, so I'm not sure if my issue was ever redeemed in later experiences.

Seeing as you like KF III, I'm not sure if you know this, but the Pilot Style edition of the game was fan-translated. It's actually a prequel adventure to the main game, so if you really want more of a fix of the third installment, you have a bit more to go on.
 

ElfArmy177

Member
IF they made the multiplayer drop in drop out Id be happy. I love Kings field, Demons Souls, and Dark Souls... and I love the difficulty. However, going through the whole game with a friend sounds like a blast. Couldn't they make it twice as hard if there was another player?

One can dream... haha
 

Whompa

Member
It's a shame to hear that they are catering to the people who avoid these games. I recall a few of the Giantbomb guys and some Gametrailers guys avoiding these games specifically because of it's difficulty. Bummer the companies are actually listening to comments like that.
 

Yuterald

Member
I do agree that visuals are a massive step up, but as the areas seem more like bridges that either lead to one previous area or one new area, it feels like a linear adventure. Sure, there's optional things to uncover and do, but so much of the game feels like a direct kind of journey, and I personally feel that the quotes made about Dark Souls II have me concerned if it's akin to King's Field III. KF III is good, but so much of the mystery and variety of just exploring is dampened knowing there's about one way forward, and one way back. I've not played IV, or the PSP games, or even the "spin-offs" like the Shadow Tower and Eternal Ring games, so I'm not sure if my issue was ever redeemed in later experiences.

Seeing as you like KF III, I'm not sure if you know this, but the Pilot Style edition of the game was fan-translated. It's actually a prequel adventure to the main game, so if you really want more of a fix of the third installment, you have a bit more to go on.

You haven't played IV? 0_0 ...get on that shit! lol!

The PSP games weren't localized, unfortunately. My brother imported them because he's as much of a fan (probably more so) of these games as I am. The PSP games are turn-based "Shining in the Darkness" kind of games. There's random encounters too, which feels totally weird in a King's Field game. They certainly live up to the title of a "spin-off". I never played them yet, but my brother said they were actually really well designed. The combat was cool too because it was one on one fights and you could actively bring up a shield to block enemy attacks (which was something that King's Field games never did and was only a feature in the first Shadow Tower game). The PSP titles sounded/looked pretty cool so it's a shame they weren't localized. A lot of the elitist King's Field fans hate those games though (the guys who used to hang out on the Agetec forums, some of them were hardcore purists).

Eternal Ring was more like King's Field III, I guess. Areas acted, as you say, like bridges, but the game was SUPER FAST compared to King's Field. It was also heavily magic based. Your primary arsenal were magic rings which you crafted into spells. There was only a handful of weapons and armor. Totally different kind of experience. We fucking LOVED that game though. It was our favorite launch PS2 title (next to Evergrace, of course).

Shadow Tower, as I've said, is also way more akin to Demon's Souls and NOT Dark Souls. It's very world/level based. There's almost a central hub point (almost like the Nexus) which leads into each "stage". Shadow Tower is way harder than King's Field too. HP is used to repair equipment, most gear is found by exploration, and there's no traditional leveling up. You just get stats for killing monsters and I believe there is a finite amount of enemies in a playthrough (they both have weird new game+'s).

Man, I just feel so frustrated with all of this sometimes. I loved all the weird King's Field-like spin offs and projects we used to get from From Software. Now that they've made it "big" with Demon's/Dark Souls, I wonder if we're ever see smaller, oddball/dark RPG-like projects from them ever again. =(
 
I did, and it was amazing. And that's the key. If the game had just led me to it I wouldn't have been nearly impressed, but the genuine sense of discovery I felt when I just stumbled across it on my own with no forewarning was incredible. I would hate for the series to lose that sense of discovery and mystery going forward.

Yeah I generally agree with this. This is what makes these games really cool, if accessible gets rid of the mystery, I would not like it.

Yup that's happened to me several times. You roll up to him and he still shoots another 1-2 arrows. You need to get pretty lucky in predicting his shots at that point.

And this is precisely what I was trying to say. I've played through DS probably 5 times now, and I still sometimes randomly die at that part, even when I feel like I execute perfectly. It feels random in a way that no other part of the game feels. And personally this is one thing I love about Dark/Demons Souls...the games are very difficult but very fair. If you learn what it takes to beat something and execute it properly, you will beat it. Random things like this really defeat that purpose.
 

Snakeyes

Member
Hmm. Well, I can't say that the comments aren't a bit worrying, but I'll give From the benefit of doubt for now.

One thing with new players is that they come into Souls swinging like in other action RPGs and start getting frustrated when this strategy constantly gets them killed. I feel that the game just needs to have an optional section that thoroughly explains the basics (take it slow, figure out the enemy patterns, every action counts, etc...) instead of watering down the overall difficulty.
 

QaaQer

Member
It's a shame to hear that they are catering to the people who avoid these games. I recall a few of the Giantbomb guys and some Gametrailers guys avoiding these games specifically because of it's difficulty. Bummer the companies are actually listening to comments like that.

I'm of the belief that game companies make games for critics so they can get the 85+ scores. Critics have a lot of games to play. They don't want deep hard games, not at all.

It's too bad they stopped making games for players.
 

Midou

Member
I'm of the belief that game companies make games for critics so they can get the 85+ scores. Critics have a lot of games to play. They don't want deep hard games, not at all.

It's too bad they stopped making games for players.

Both games got close to about 90% average across the board. Dark Souls sold more than Demon's Souls too. There is no reason to believe the trend would not continue, had they just continued along the same path. Increasing accessibility would allow the numbers to grow, but the core game can or even must remain the same for it to get those reviews. Pretty sure a lot of reviewers would be upset by a more dumbed down experience too.
 

params7

Banned
Meh 20th December is going to be a long wait. But I can just bet right now there is no easy-mode coming, no dumbed down experience regarding the challenge of gameplay. Given FROM Software's history in medieval games since 1995, one would automatically assume they would loath such things in their games just as much as us core fans of the Souls games.

We're probably going to see changes in storytelling, tutorials, friends list online co-op etc.
 

GenericUser

Member
Honestly? I'd play dark souls 2 if they provide an easy mode. I played demon's souls and was unable to enjoy it, because of the difficulty.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Honestly? I'd play dark souls 2 if they provide an easy mode. I played demon's souls and was unable to enjoy it, because of the difficulty.

Honestly? i'd play Baldur's Gate 2 if something awesome happened when i pressed a button. I played 1 and was unable to enjoy it, because of the lack of awesome happening.
 

Serra

Member
Honestly? I'd play dark souls 2 if they provide an easy mode. I played demon's souls and was unable to enjoy it, because of the difficulty.

There is just no way to implement a easy mode that does not detract from the game that the existing fans want.
 
Getting upset over the idea of accessibility is a bit ridiculous. I take that to mean they want to more intuitively explain systems and the style of the game to players. So much stuff in the series is obtuse. Sure, that's fun in ways, but there's definitely room for smarter design in helping players understand how to better approach the game from the start and to help get them on the path to play and enjoy the game. Sure, they could've meant something totally different, but a sequel builds off the success of its predecessor and I imagine that's the goal here. There's always room for smarter design in any game.
 

params7

Banned
The new guy worked on Monster Hunters, Resident Evil Outbreak and ULTIMA fucking Online.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh9auqHz2U0&feature=share&list=UUI6keWArpxmfeiuAATv7jZw

His portfolio so far consists of group-based hardcore games that really don't go against the values of challenge that FROM believes in.

Again, I think some changes are coming as in easier to group, but in terms of challenge factor we really shouldn't be worrying given this new directors history.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
This is completely untrue if there is still a "normal" mode to choose.
There have been arguments against this in this thread and in other threads. It will compromise the design of the game (difficulty options in general do this but one fight at a time...)
 

UrbanRats

Member
There is just no way to implement a easy mode that does not detract from the game that the existing fans want.
False.
Again, Dark Souls had plenty of ways to build your own "easy mode" they just weren't presented as such and people got discouraged.

They can be more upfront about said solutions, this time, and make everyone happy.

- put a difficulty rank next to classes fro example, so people will know to pick Pyromancer.
- sam with gifts, mention something about being good for beginners in the description of something like the master key.
- offer some optional loot at the beginning, at the cost of locking up some cool stuff later on (for example) so whoever wants can get that starting gear and warm up to the game, before getting advanced stuff in NG+.

Just random ideas, but it doesn't have to be an easy mode with 50% damage etc etc.
 

K.Sabot

Member
People who want EZ Mode Dark Souls should buy Dragon's Dogma and be off with it.

It's sorta like Skyrim and sorta like Dark Souls without the teeth.

Everybody wins!
 

params7

Banned
This is completely untrue if there is still a "normal" mode to choose.

Normal mode? And in this mode if the game is dumbed down, it will break and become into a extremely bland, generic RPG. With no strategy required in combat, Dark Souls might as well be booked under hack and slash.

Now if you are implying Dark Souls Normal mode be its current difficulty, and then Hard be NG+ or NG++ difficulty, that could work, but I see no point in it.
 

jimmypython

Member
Am I the only one expecting Miyazaki's doing something souls related on the Vita?

I have a question BTW. What is SCEJ's role in Demon's Souls in terms of developing the title? I remember the game also had a producer from SCEJ side.
 

QaaQer

Member
Both games got close to about 90% average across the board. Dark Souls sold more than Demon's Souls too. There is no reason to believe the trend would not continue, had they just continued along the same path. Increasing accessibility would allow the numbers to grow, but the core game can or even must remain the same for it to get those reviews. Pretty sure a lot of reviewers would be upset by a more dumbed down experience too.

I really think these two games were big exceptions, mostly because of the unrelenting hardcore fan support of Demon's Souls in the early days.

A hard deep game that doesn't have that is screwed. A typical game is put in the reviewers hands for what, a week maybe before launch? If a game is slow methodical and hard taking 100+ hourse to beat, well I just don't think critics have the time or energy to put into those kinds of games. That's in part why 'fun' games have taken over the triple A space.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
False.
Again, Dark Souls had plenty of ways to build your own "easy mode" they just weren't presented as such and people got discouraged.

They can be more upfront about said solutions, this time, and make everyone happy.
Why don't they just make those options more in your face and expand on them instead of defeatist cop-out crap like a braindead easy mode that you select in a menu?

I think there could be ways to lower the difficulty of the games somehow, but naturally within the game. A difficulty option is just a sloppy and lazy way out.
People who want EZ Mode Dark Souls should buy Dragon's Dogma and be off with it.

It's sorta like Skyrim and sorta like Dark Souls without the teeth.

Everybody wins!
Dragon's Dogma is cool man. It doesn't deserve to be compared to Skyrim :(
 

UrbanRats

Member
People who want EZ Mode Dark Souls should buy Dragon's Dogma and be off with it.

It's sorta like Skyrim and sorta like Dark Souls without the teeth.

Everybody wins!

I like both and there are similarities, but they're not the same thing, especially art-wise.
Dragon's Godma is far more traditional in its visual design.
EDIT: Dragon's Godma was one funny typo, so i'll leave it there.

Why don't they just make those options more in your face and expand on them instead of defeatist cop-out crap like a braindead easy mode that you select in a menu?

I think there could be ways to lower the difficulty of the games somehow, but naturally within the game. A difficulty option is just a sloppy and lazy way out.

Yup, check my edit. ;)
 

params7

Banned
People who want EZ Mode Dark Souls should buy Dragon's Dogma and be off with it.

People who want EZ mode Action rpg's can buy Skyrim, Dragon Age, Dragon's Dogma etc etc..the list is endless.

People who want hardcore action rpg's? You'd have to go old school on the PC. On current gen there's only Demon's and Dark Souls.

Really, Ez-mode lovers have no lack of games to play. Hardcore gamers have been starved this gen.
 

Sullichin

Member
Honestly? I'd play dark souls 2 if they provide an easy mode. I played demon's souls and was unable to enjoy it, because of the difficulty.

1-1 of Demons Souls is definitely a steep learning curve, but what would you suggest an easy mode would be? Cuz most enemies die in pretty much one hit with any weapon you start with, and individually they don't do that much damage. If enemy placement, numbers, or attack patterns change to make the game easier, those are changes that I feel would unfortunately easily seep into the 'normal' difficulty as well, less they have the time to balance two versions of everything.

Fortunately I don't think this will happen, I can only give FROM the benefit of the doubt after two excellent games.
 

K.Sabot

Member
Why don't they just make those options more in your face and expand on them instead of defeatist cop-out crap like a braindead easy mode that you select in a menu?

I think there could be ways to lower the difficulty of the games somehow, but naturally within the game. A difficulty option is just a sloppy and lazy way out.

Dragon's Dogma is cool man. It doesn't deserve to be compared to Skyrim :(

I was sort of reaching to appeal to the people who like their RPGs shallow and big.

Dogma is expansive alright, but I don't consider it shallow. Though I personally think it could use a little more depth.
 

UrbanRats

Member
As long as the implementation of an easier mode (as i said, without a straight out "easy mode" with 200% health etc) does not hurt the whole game, there are no reasons to be against it, aside from being elitist pricks.

When it starts to fuck with the main game, then there's an argument to be had, indeed.
I think one of the biggest issues is the multiplayer, altough a good player with shitty gear, is still gonna destroy a bad player with easily obtained amazing gear.
 

d0c_zaius

Member
"we can surely agree that we would all like to see Dark Souls attain as great a presence as The Elder Scrolls"


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnd now I'm worried. Keep your horse armor aspirations out of my Dark Souls.
 

vilmer_

Member
"we can surely agree that we would all like to see Dark Souls attain as great a presence as The Elder Scrolls"


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnd now I'm worried. Keep your horse armor aspirations out of my Dark Souls.

Don't worry, it wasn't FROM who made that statement ;)
 
I seen the twitch.tv streamer towellie play this game and shit on it if he's any indication of someone who tries to get into the game who is kind of casual i can see why their attempting it lol
 

Orayn

Member
You don't think From would like to have a 5-10 million selling franchise?

They already had an opportunity to sell out and they didn't take it. Why now?

Why doesn't Paradox Interactive drop their Grand Strategy lineup and start releasing more profitable Facebook and casual iOS games instead?
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
As long as the implementation of an easier mode (as i said, without a straight out "easy mode" with 200% health etc) does not hurt the whole game, there are no reasons to be against it, aside from being elitist pricks.

When it starts to fuck with the main game, then there's an argument to be had, indeed.
I think one of the biggest issues is the multiplayer, altough a good player with shitty gear, is still gonna destroy a bad player with easily obtained amazing gear.
Yeah, I've thought it over, and really I have no issue with making the game easier through natural in-game methods, so long as there is some compromise for people who choose that path. It's just the whole proposition of "stupid babby - normal - hard" difficulty options is... no.
 

Parakeetman

No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
I don't think anyone can say for sure. Don't forget, before Miyazaki created Demon's Souls, he was the director on Armored Core 4, which was completely different in pretty much every way.

AC4 was the game that normal humans couldnt comprehend due to the insane speed high level battles got lol. Which is why we would up with Front Missio... err Armored Core V. D: Personally took me a little bit to get used to AC4 from being a more old school AC fan, but when I did fights were pretty insane between good players as its totally even more about how good you are with piloting than previous titles, just due to the insane speed. Though I still never liked how the whole targeting system went from manual to auto as the series progressed. That was one thing which pissed me off.

For those who dont get what Im talking about, watch this and see if you can process what the fuck is going on in your head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6IpcH_HqzY

Anyways yeah on the topic of DS2 pretty good points you brought up about the folks who are currently in charge of the project vs. past work that they did. That compounded with Namco potentially sticking their finger in the pie so to speak Id say there is a good cause to be concerned.

The supervisor role is more a title slapped on so fans dont get scared off due to the fact someone new is taking over.
 

params7

Banned
Souls will reach the numbers of 5-10 million if they keep doing what they are doing, because they are literally the only AAA-tier developers who are doing it, and there *IS* a big market for such games, but they've been really overlooked and ignored.
Might take them multiple titles and into next-gen to get there, but look at how far they've come. Demon's Souls was a JP-only release title on one platform that received little to no ad support and hype.

All this franchise is today, is because of word of mouth.
 

QaaQer

Member
Souls will reach the numbers of 5-10 million if they keep doing what they are doing, because they are literally the only AAA-tier developers who are doing it, and there *IS* a big market for such games, but they've been really overlooked and ignored.
Might take them multiple titles and into next-gen to get there, but look at how far they've come. Demon's Souls was a JP-only release title on one platform that received little to no ad support and hype.

All this franchise is today, is because of word of mouth.

But what about the focus groups and marketing dept. metrics that say people want lots of slackjaw stories and mouthbreather 'I'm such a bad ass' combat?
I kid
 

Parakeetman

No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Wow that is fast.

Heres another example from a 1 vs 1 battle same guy who made the other vid. This one should be a little easier to track whats going on / whos shooting at who lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noET3565uUc


Souls will reach the numbers of 5-10 million if they keep doing what they are doing, because they are literally the only AAA-tier developers who are doing it, and there *IS* a big market for such games, but they've been really overlooked and ignored.
Might take them multiple titles and into next-gen to get there, but look at how far they've come. Demon's Souls was a JP-only release title on one platform that received little to no ad support and hype.

All this franchise is today, is because of word of mouth.

Exactly, they dont need to screw with anything or make it "more accessible" regardless of what all of those who are against those of us who are saying dont touch shit if it aint broke, the game will continue to sell due to word of mouth.

The whole diluting the formula to try to reach a larger audience really is a double edged gamble.

It could pay off and they go and get a whole new market of "casuals" (cant think of a better word to describe people who didnt want to put in any sort of effort with the previous titles and wants shit handed to them on a silver platter / have their asses wiped for them) and they continue to release games that cater to them. But then all together they just went and made a whole new game.

Personally if they do have someone smart on the business side they would realize that pretty much all of the sales are from the fans who want the game as it is and it has pretty much sold well from that formula alone which means dont change it up. They have all of the numbers and sales trend data so that should give em a pretty solid picture that the game doesnt really need a larger market.

As it performed beyond expectation and now has the PC market interested.

With all that being said really they just should not have said anything which would put doubt into the minds of fans. Dont pander to those who didnt care, because they are not the ones who will be buying the game on launch. Obviously they said something wrong otherwise there would not be this much concern from fans in the thread.

Also this game seriously does not need any marketing at this point as all the fans will know exactly when the game comes out and from there the new comers will too basically from word of mouth. Anyone whos too new to even know any of those things wouldnt be buying the game anyways most likely. So they might as well put all resources just to development and skip the whole marketing dick wagging as once again its not needed. This game will sell itself and has no need for some dumbshit in a suit with a piece of paper saying he knows what hes talking about and how to sell it to people (that dont even want it)
 

Derrick01

Banned
I don't have much of an emotional connection here because I'm not a big Souls fan and Dark Souls was only ok for me, but I do consider myself an expert in figuring out if a game in a respected franchise will be dumbed down.

I think as of right now both sides in this thread are right. Yes it's too early to know for sure yet since the game was JUST revealed, but people who are cautioning patience need to understand that this is how it all starts with games like Hitman Absolution, Invisible War, Skyrim and so on. It always starts with a quote from an interview or first impressions that sparks a lot of fear and it goes on from there. We'll see how it turns out.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
As much as these comments irk me, there are some things that give me hope that I am worrying too much about this:

1. Miyazaki is supervising to some degree and they make sure to highlight this in the PR. This means the new director will at least feel somewhat uncomfortable making any large revisions to the core of the series with him on the team. Unless he's a total dick which I highly doubt.

2. This is still From we're talking about here. It's guaranteed to have great art, character and monster design and atmospheric environments.

3. It's very clear from the press release that From/Namco understand why the series is popular and are fully aware they have a dedicated fan base they want to keep happy:

...Dark Souls II will continue a legacy of goading its passionate fan base with unrelenting challenge and suffering that are considered a hallmark of the series; while presenting new devilishly devised obstacles for players to overcome.

Built upon the foundation established by Souls series creator and Dark Souls II Supervisor, Hidetaka Miyazaki with development helmed by FromSoftware Director Tomohiro Shibuya, Dark Souls II will feature a new hero, a new storyline, and an unfamiliar world for players to survive in while delivering its signature brand of unrelenting punishment that players hunger for. Epic battles with gruesome enemies and blood-thirsty bosses await adventurers as they traverse through a devastated world filled with death and despair; only those who are strong willed or cunning can survive this journey to achieve great glory.

“Dark Souls II retains the core essence of Dark Souls while evolving to present new twists and challenges that are sure to please longtime fans and attract new comers to the series,” says Carlson Choi, Vice President of Marketing at NAMCO BANDAI Games America Inc. “FromSoftware is going to take a very dark path with Dark Souls II; players will need to look deep within themselves to see if they have the intestinal fortitude to embark on this journey.”

“The entire development team is striving to make Dark Souls II an experience that is fresh while not forsaking its roots in presenting players with challenging gameplay. Our goal is to surprise and delight our fans with new experiences and plot twists while enticing new players to join our dark journey

Unfortunately we have no idea what specifically the new director is talking about in EDGE. It could be anything at this point and we just have to wait until we see some gameplay to make any judgements.
 

nasos_333

Member
I smell an incoming disaster

Hype has gone down like 10.000%

Different creator and a random easy "accesible" game, this is not Dark SOuls 2, this is something totally different

Like FF13 compared to FF7-8-9 probably

When they say such things, they better have gameplay videos to show how the game is changed, otherwise i would rather burn my money than pre-order with such news
 

Riposte

Member
As long as the implementation of an easier mode (as i said, without a straight out "easy mode" with 200% health etc) does not hurt the whole game, there are no reasons to be against it, aside from being elitist pricks.

Why people think elitist is an insult, I'll never understand.

There is no way to implement an easy mode where I would not have to deal with it at some point. If I see it, I'll have to choose to not to pick it despite it being the strategically superior option (as relative to "reaching the end point") and then push the existence of it to the back of my mind. This is a hideous activity that I hate doing with every game (and boy do I have do it a lot): forcing myself to ignore a side of it that is abominable (in this case, restraining myself from power). The upside is that unlike a broken mechanic found within the combat system, it might be easy to ignore unless it is quite pervasive (don't get me started on games which force you to use quicksaves). I've become quite good at ignoring it, I think most people have if it ever bothered them (I think you would have to have some form of appreciation for arcade classics in order for that to develop), but I can still recognize that I'm doing it.

So here in a parallel universe I'm walking up to Dark Souls and it is going to be a testing and terrifying experience. Imagine it like a mountain, a true journey. But then I look to my left and there I see an escalator for dopes. Cue deflation. I'm suppose to take this game more seriously than it does? Well I have to if that's the case. I have to play pretend a little harder than I did before. I see this as a form of desecration to a piece of art, and it is distasteful to me. Adding an easy mode to Souls games would be a particularly egregious example too, backed by some despicable logic. Rather than to standing to see art eye to eye, people would pull it down to their lowness. But hey, they need to sell copies. I guess I can understand to some form and I've become quite good at adding rules to make a game fun. If the Souls games, among other games, can get away it would suck for them to spoil that opportunity to not have to pander.

You know that deflation I had for "Dark Souls with easy mode"? I still feel that to some extent when I look at the game-breaking co-op, the multitude of exploitative tactics, and GRINDING. So people want to take that feeling I have for Dark Souls now and make it harder to ignore. At this point I'm busy trying to ignore the fact that Dark Souls already has an easy mode.

Another problem that comes from this is that people (every reviewer, for sure) I communicate with about the game might have played a much worse version of the game. That is always confusing and, since I'm pretty invested in videogame criticism, concerning.

So this might be a small thing (and likely impossible for some people to "get"), but...

When it starts to fuck with the main game, then there's an argument to be had, indeed.
I think one of the biggest issues is the multiplayer, altough a good player with shitty gear, is still gonna destroy a bad player with easily obtained amazing gear.

Avoiding some crossover is very hard to do with 100% certainty and here in lies a more immediate problem. It doesn't take much thought to realize there is new found workload that comes with designing multiple versions of your game that have to be balanced to several skill levels (which is not exactly something that is concrete). Then you have priorities. Is the hardest difficulty going to be the most played? Well, it almost never is judging from stats I've seen. So why are going to focus on such a niche group, when you've already given gamers the easy way out? Does it matter if the hardest difficulty is well paced and balanced, when that safety net is always there and fewer people will be there to see it(not to mention the "achievements" thought process basically means people will allow themselves to be stepped on for a few gamer points)? How do you make certain, game-defining mechanics work consistently despite health, AI, etc differences? And don't get me STARTED on unlocking difficulties (fucking Bayonetta!). The best case scenario is that it is only very distracting to developers (actually the best case scenario would be easy mode being a trap for a 2 hour long BAD END route as I once wrote, sort of jokingly, in regards to how Dark Souls should add an easy mode).

History hasn't shown us that multiple difficulties is something to be jumping for joy over. I think the exception would be genres or series (Assassin's Creed, many western teams in general, JRPGs) which are so hopelessly caught up in pandering that a hard mode would be a relief. That's kind of where we are at with this unfortunate mechanism of game design: begging for scraps as it were to go along with the positives of modern gaming.

Another thing that concerns me that by not forcing gamers to rise up to a higher form, you are eventually allowing the medium to drop in standards. I don't have the facts to support it, so I won't lean too strongly on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the state of difficulty and punishment of games today can tied to the introduction of convenient, accommodating difficulty settings. Because "Normal" sure as hell isn't "Normal". If a good "easy" were to exist, it would be one that before the game is through there is no difference between players of different difficulties. If I was a game developer and someone put a gun to my head, this is what I would try to aim for. I'll add modes called "Child" which results in the main character being turned into a monster two hours in (basically a joke on the player, maybe one that comes back to haunt them), "Adolescent" which is a little more friendly, but stops being so by 2 hours in, and "Adult" which would be the game. And that would be a painful compromise.
 

kevm3

Member
The challenge is pretty much what makes the souls series what it is. Without that, it'd be another boring slasher. Actually being forced to use strategy and to play skillfully is what the series is all about. There are tons of other hand-holders out there for gamers to play. Don't make this into another one.
 

Clevinger

Member
Souls will reach the numbers of 5-10 million if they keep doing what they are doing, because they are literally the only AAA-tier developers who are doing it, and there *IS* a big market for such games, but they've been really overlooked and ignored.
Might take them multiple titles and into next-gen to get there, but look at how far they've come. Demon's Souls was a JP-only release title on one platform that received little to no ad support and hype.

All this franchise is today, is because of word of mouth.

I think you severely overestimate the market for this type of game. It could probably do a bit better than Dark Souls did, but nowhere near the almost Skyrim type sales you're thinking of. You're right that From is the only AAA developer doing it, but there's only so many people who want that "it."
 
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