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Dark Souls II (PS3/360/PC) - Edge Magazine details (Prepare yourself)

SerRodrik

Member
so who found the dragon covenant without a guide?

I totally found it without a guide, and it was one of the most memorable moments in the last few years, because I really felt like I was discovering something. Going from checking for false walls on a whim to the journey down the Great Hollow to reaching Ash Lake was amazing, and if the game had just lead me to it it absolutely would have killed that sensation. I wouldn't remember Ash Lake as this mindblowing place, it would be just another location.

And that's what I really don't want to lose from the series. That sense of discovery.
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
Who knew how the gravelord covenant worked without having to look it up?

Who knew about the deep insights of quantum physics without having to look it up?

This argument on "things should be spelled out completely, without me the player needing to do any real work" is lazy and no game design should be put in place to placate these people. There's a big kiddie pool of games that appeal to that level of intellect, go play those, why should every game be obligated to play by these single digit rules?

I mean hell, throughout the Wii generation (and somewhat GC) Nintendo stuck their heads in that trough and we haven't been able to pull them out since.
 

B-Genius

Unconfirmed Member
so who found the dragon covenant without a guide?
Who knew how the gravelord covenant worked without having to look it up?
Are you guys deliberately trolling? This is exactly the kind of thing that's getting people annoyed/worried about the new development.

As posted, the Dragon covenant can be found either by persistence or luck, and is an amazing pay-off after everything that leads up to it.

As for the Gravelord covenant, it depends what you mean by "how it worked". The Eye of Death item description gives a pretty detailed (not to mention interesting) account:
Online play item.
Lure phantoms from other worlds.
(Only Covenanter can use the item while Hollows cannot)

The dreadful Eyes of Death spread disaster
across neighboring worlds. Phantoms lured
to the host world may end up as victims,
allowing the Eyes of Death to multiply,
and leading to further proliferation of bane.
Figuring out what the "disasters" are would probably have taken some time without a guide (and were probably yet another amazing discovery for those who didn't give into temptation), but if you felt compelled to look it up early then why is that the game's problem?
 
Indeed, maybe even a good metaphor for gaming in general.

Fives years later, the ambiguity destroyed, their freedom of design gone, the last remaining members of FROM submitted to mainstream and commercial authority in Tokyo, Japan. The great dark fantasy RPG maker of exploration, depth and difficulty was gone, and the great gaming frontier as a whole was soon to pass into history.

Yikes, nah, I'm not ready to abandon all hope yet. I really just meant regarding all the internal politics, the price of success in determining the changes from part 1 to part 2, Miyazaki's side of the story, things added or removed from the design along the way, etc. You know, maybe a good Mama Robotnik thread. :p
 
How many people found the way back to the Undead Asylum without any help? I remember you didn't even have to look up a FAQ on that one, a lot of gaming news sites were writing stories about that. I didn't really intend to have that spelled out to me, but as I was making my way back I was thinking "damn this would be satisfying if I had found it on my own." There were plenty of hints, like the item on top of the roof by the cleric, the fact that the bird is still there, and that a door was left locked at the Asylum to indicate the way back, but that would have taken a lot of exploration of Firelink Shrine to figure out the exact way back.
 

Zaventem

Member
Are you guys deliberately trolling? This is exactly the kind of thing that's getting people annoyed/worried about the new development.

As posted, the Dragon covenant can be found either by persistence or luck, and is an amazing pay-off after everything that leads up to it.

As for the Gravelord covenant, it depends what you mean by "how it worked". The Eye of Death item description gives a pretty detailed (not to mention interesting) account:

Figuring out what the "disasters" are would probably have taken some time without a guide (and were probably yet another amazing discovery for those who didn't give into temptation), but if you felt compelled to look it up early then why is that the game's problem?

I'm specifically talking about it not working.The description is fine it's the work around that you have to do to use it isn't.Putting it to infect NG+ only people and not having dedicated servers hurt the covenant.
 

Dresden

Member
Secrets are fine. Poor documentation is not. A step towards more accessibility doesn't limit the former. Nor does fixing the latter involve pop-up screens or forced tutorials - someone mentioned Alvina & the Forest Covenant before, which is a good example of how to introduce someone to the functions of a Covenant.
 

Mort

Banned
Secrets are fine. Poor documentation is not. A step towards more accessibility doesn't limit the former. Nor does fixing the latter involve pop-up screens or forced tutorials - someone mentioned Alvina & the Forest Covenant before, which is a good example of how to introduce someone to the functions of a Covenant.

Secrets are by definition inaccessible.
 

Orayn

Member
Secrets are by definition inaccessible.

Dresden wasn't talking about removing or completely explaining secrets, but having clearer explanations available for the bread and butter mechanics of the game. Nothing patronizing like forced tutorials, just more understandable, easily accessed descriptions and better teaching than before. An example would be the orange sign soapstone: There was no good reason to require players to buy it from that undead merchant. Messaging is a cornerstone of the game's social side, and it doesn't do anyone any good to remove it from players who happen to miss a small detour early on.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Random thought: this one time someone invaded me in the original. I didn't want to be invaded. So I raced through the level for minutes, hid, and then slaughtered him. I could taste the virtual tears.

But yeah, next gen graphics on old gen hardware, nope.gif.
 
There's something I've always wondered about Dark Souls and messaging. Did people purposely leave messages next to ladders and levers just in the hopes they could troll someone getting chased by an enemy who ends up reading their message instead of climbing away/closing a gate? Or just to annoy people to have to go through the trouble of switching to the action they want to do? I always got pissed at the "Here!" messages when it was obvious that there was a ladder to climb down or an NPC to talk to.
 

Dresden

Member
It's weird because it was just a step back from the previous game. As a side note I hope messages have a vocal component (nothing recordable, just canned voice-notes ala the wooden carvings in Oolacile) in DS2 if they're kept for the game.

I wonder at the kind of shitstorm there will be if FROM announces the inclusion of voice-chat for the new game. It seems in line with some of their stated goals.
 

B-Genius

Unconfirmed Member
I'm specifically talking about it not working.The description is fine it's the work around that you have to do to use it isn't.Putting it to infect NG+ only people and not having dedicated servers hurt the covenant.
Even if something somewhere in-game said "Gravelording only works with players on NG+", I don't think that would have boosted its popularity, or made it "work". It was something put there as a new challenge - "a new sense of unexpected danger" I think one of the team put it - for those who still wanted to continue on the same character after finishing the main quest.

Incidentally, has it been confirmed that disasters only spawn in NG+ worlds?

Either way, what you seem to be saying now is that it's the implementation of some of these covenants that requires work. I don't think many people would argue with you there.
There's something I've always wondered about Dark Souls and messaging. Did people purposely leave messages next to ladders and levers just in the hopes they could troll someone getting chased by an enemy who ends up reading their message instead of climbing away/closing a gate? Or just to annoy people to have to go through the trouble of switching to the action they want to do? I always got pissed at the "Here!" messages when it was obvious that there was a ladder to climb down or an NPC to talk to.
Good point, but I'm pretty sure the most important action is selected by default. I.e. you have to switch in order to 'Read Message'. I can't remember ever getting mad at the positioning of a certain message (unless I couldn't get to it!)
 

Hypron

Member
Good point, but I'm pretty sure the most important action is selected by default. I.e. you have to switch in order to 'Read Message'. I can't remember ever getting mad at the positioning of a certain message (unless I couldn't get to it!)

That's not always the case. A bit earlier today I was fighting
Manus
(DLC Spoiler) and some idiot had put a message on top of
Sif's
invocation mark and the default action was to read the message (
which is pretty annoying when you need to do the summoning in the middle of the fight
)
 

Zaventem

Member
B-Genius yeah i posted videos if you look up of a Dark Souls player that did extensive working on figuring out how to successfully gravelord.
 

B-Genius

Unconfirmed Member
That's not always the case. A bit earlier today I was fighting
Manus
(DLC Spoiler) and some idiot had put a message on top of
Sif's
invocation mark and the default action was to read the message (
which is pretty annoying when you need to do the summoning in the middle of the fight
)
Damn, that's unfortunate. IIRC, that instance is weird because you don't need to confirm it like a usual summon sign.
I guess they thought confirming it would be fiddly in the middle of the fight, but didn't thoroughly test messages placed over it.

Gotta give the guy some props though, whether intentional or otherwise!
 
Choas Covenant get's you Chaos pyro spells - also Servant roster is just a leaderboard for who is the most devout member - do wish Sunbro's had a similar one to see who has had the jolliest co-operation

yeah I get that of course, it's just that the act of collecting humanity is so totally generic as an activity that it serves no real roleplay purpose. I mean, obviously if you really want to roleplay as a member of the daughter of chaos covenant then you can diligently collect humanity to feed to your deity given fleshly form, but doing so has no significance to roleplaying. sure, it has a lot of lore behind it but that's a different thing.

my point is basically that you can do any number of things to collect humanity and level up your reputation with the covenant, and that none of them really share a specific mode of behaviour. like you could farm rats in the depths (or the guys in the dlc area near the last boss), you could white soapstone a lot and collect it by doing co-op, you could red soapstone a lot and collect by defeating invaders etc. all very different, but all effective ways to level up with the covenant.

that's really different from, say, the darkwraiths or sunbros, where the former proscribes a malicious mode of behaviour and the latter a (jolly) helpful one in order to gain covenant levels.

That's an amazing amount of information to infer from three or four lines of dialogue, and a notice that you've joined a covenant, whose benefits you won't know at that point. The next covenant you'll come across as a player is the Warriors of Sunlight, who used to have a 50 faith requirement to join - but there is nothing on the location, or the broken statue, itself to indicate this. Some of the covenants were obfuscated to the point of non-functionality; stuff like the Gravelords weren't usable for the first few months of the game, and even now there are many who've never had their worlds infected or have had black phantoms spawn. They are poorly explained - the requirements are cryptic, the rewards even more so - and even worse, most of them are useless and thus go ignored.

it's not really that amazing!

look, I'll happily admit that the covenants can be really obscure, but I'd also point out that there is nothing stopping you from exploring the whole game and killing gwyn without ever joining a covenant. there's an argument to be made that this is in itself problematic, but it's not one that I really buy-in to.

perhaps it makes more sense when you know that alpha protocol is one of my favourite games. despite all the time I've spent playing that game I know of several things I've never seen, and it revels in creating quite convoluted sets of conditions under which certain events will occur. that to me is actually really good design, because it rewards seasoned players who enjoy testing the limits of the simulation in front of which they've been placed.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
yeah I get that of course, it's just that the act of collecting humanity is so totally generic as an activity that it serves no real roleplay purpose. I mean, obviously if you really want to roleplay as a member of the daughter of chaos covenant then you can diligently collect humanity to feed to your deity given fleshly form, but doing so has no significance to roleplaying. sure, it has a lot of lore behind it but that's a different thing.

my point is basically that you can do any number of things to collect humanity and level up your reputation with the covenant, and that none of them really share a specific mode of behaviour. like you could farm rats in the depths (or the guys in the dlc area near the last boss), you could white soapstone a lot and collect it by doing co-op, you could red soapstone a lot and collect by defeating invaders etc. all very different, but all effective ways to level up with the covenant.

that's really different from, say, the darkwraiths or sunbros, where the former proscribes a malicious mode of behaviour and the latter a (jolly) helpful one in order to gain covenant levels.
To be honest, that's kind of why I like that covenant the most. It is the "Chaos" covenant, after all, so it makes sense that anything goes in the name of the Fair Lady. I get what you mean with it not promoting roleplaying behavior (because really it's more of a behavioral thing, rather than getting into a character), but I guess I'm soft for women in distress, and I'm a leg man, so I can't say no to a lady with eight of them.

it's not really that amazing!

look, I'll happily admit that the covenants can be really obscure, but I'd also point out that there is nothing stopping you from exploring the whole game and killing gwyn without ever joining a covenant. there's an argument to be made that this is in itself problematic, but it's not one that I really buy-in to.

perhaps it makes more sense when you know that alpha protocol is one of my favourite games. despite all the time I've spent playing that game I know of several things I've never seen, and it revels in creating quite convoluted sets of conditions under which certain events will occur. that to me is actually really good design, because it rewards seasoned players who enjoy testing the limits of the simulation in front of which they've been placed.
It took me a while to think of things for which I actually needed outside help, and it was tough.

Dark Souls isn't obscure, it just requires thinking instead of flat out saying everything. If you wait a second and think things, they're pretty obvious and the hints are all there. It's not accessible either, specially by today's standards, but that's actually a good thing and it's sad they're relinquishing that as if it were a design flaw.
 

Dresden

Member
it's not really that amazing!

look, I'll happily admit that the covenants can be really obscure, but I'd also point out that there is nothing stopping you from exploring the whole game and killing gwyn without ever joining a covenant. there's an argument to be made that this is in itself problematic, but it's not one that I really buy-in to.

I've never been for the idea that players need to discover everything in a game, and I'm more than fine with people not discovering certain aspects of the game before they finish it. But for the things they do discover, it wouldn't hurt to clarify a bit more regarding its function and use.

perhaps it makes more sense when you know that alpha protocol is one of my favourite games. despite all the time I've spent playing that game I know of several things I've never seen, and it revels in creating quite convoluted sets of conditions under which certain events will occur. that to me is actually really good design, because it rewards seasoned players who enjoy testing the limits of the simulation in front of which they've been placed.

I'm pretty fond of Alpha Protocol and all, but the convolution there occurs in situations where the player knows the rules of the game & operate under a specific set of parameters that they can manipulate (as in, conversations and their permutations). It's just thoughtful writing and design. Poor documentation, I feel, isn't.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Dark Souls isn't obscure, it just requires thinking instead of flat out saying everything. If you wait a second and think things, they're pretty obvious and the hints are all there. It's not accessible either, specially by today's standards, but that's actually a good thing and it's sad they're relinquishing that as if it were a design flaw.

It is.
Whether that's a good thing or not is up to debate, but it is obscure.
It does ask you to read carefully every line of dialogue, but it also demands a lot of conjectures based upon those, and that's why a lot of people miss stuff, because most of the time, shit people say in a game doesn't matter to that degree.
So if we go by any gaming standard, it is an obscure game which is, imo, part of its charm.
 
Who knew about the deep insights of quantum physics without having to look it up?

This argument on "things should be spelled out completely, without me the player needing to do any real work" is lazy and no game design should be put in place to placate these people. There's a big kiddie pool of games that appeal to that level of intellect, go play those, why should every game be obligated to play by these single digit rules?

I mean hell, throughout the Wii generation (and somewhat GC) Nintendo stuck their heads in that trough and we haven't been able to pull them out since.
I'm all for keeping things subtle, but basic game mechanics like covenants should be explained. It doesn't have to hit you round the face with a wet fish, it can be in game and part of the story, but it needs explaining. People are still discussing how gravelording even works, it was only recently that it became apparent that it only works in NG+ (and even then there's conflicting information.)

This doesn't break the game, it doesn't make it easy mode.
 

SerRodrik

Member
That's not always the case. A bit earlier today I was fighting
Manus
(DLC Spoiler) and some idiot had put a message on top of
Sif's
invocation mark and the default action was to read the message (
which is pretty annoying when you need to do the summoning in the middle of the fight
)

Heh, that happened to me recently too. Boy was I pissed.
 

Serra

Member
Not difficult. I read a orange message on the ground who told me that was an hidden path.
No pop up, only player "cooperation"

Same here. I found the Gravelord covenant on my own too. In my countless hours of playing dark souls I have only seen 2 black phantoms, which is kind of bullshit though.

EDIT: I hope they don't put more practically useless covenants like the Princess Guard.
 
Seriously...people are complaining about a game that tells you right the fuck up front that it's difficult, but doable. The interpipes (especially if you're a GAFfer) will tell you exactly what you're getting into and ALL that you have to do is play the game and experiment a little bit to figure out the "difficult" game mechanics (humanity, attunement, etc.)

Christ's sake, I found the
Drake Sword
by screwing around. I farmed
humanities
very shortly after that. Am I still getting beat down on occasion? Yup. Is it because my dumb ass doesn't look backwards often enough? Yup.

I really hope that not much changes for DS2. If they want to pretty it up that would be stellar. If they want to add more classes or shit, add a few more bonfires or something, sure, go for it. But for anyone that wants an overhaul or handholding, get a different game.
 
I like the new changes they seem to be making. I need a more thane subtle story when playing games outside of platformers. Also, making the game more "accesible" sounds awesome.

Now, the two things that need to change in order for me to buy this game. Make being invaded an option, and let me pause the game.
 
I like the new changes they seem to be making. I need a more thane subtle story when playing games outside of platformers. Also, making the game more "accesible" sounds awesome.

Now, the two things that need to change in order for me to buy this game. Make being invaded an option, and let me pause the game.

tumblr_mc3uasAGRO1qa82d1o3_r2_250.gif
 
I like the new changes they seem to be making. I need a more thane subtle story when playing games outside of platformers. Also, making the game more "accesible" sounds awesome.

Now, the two things that need to change in order for me to buy this game. Make being invaded an option, and let me pause the game.

Being invaded is an option. Just play offline.
 

LegatoB

Member
Being invaded is an option. Just play offline.
Or hollow yourself. Unlike in Demon's Souls, where being in soul form meant that you had greatly reduced health, Dark Souls doesn't really penalize players for opting out of the multiplayer features by remaining hollow. Summoning phantoms to aid you is meant to counterbalance the risk of invasion in the Souls series, and I would not like to see that balanced changed. You can still read messages while hollow, so everyone wins.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
It is.
Whether that's a good thing or not is up to debate, but it is obscure.
It does ask you to read carefully every line of dialogue, but it also demands a lot of conjectures based upon those, and that's why a lot of people miss stuff, because most of the time, shit people say in a game doesn't matter to that degree.
So if we go by any gaming standard, it is an obscure game which is, imo, part of its charm.
With the exception of a few things (upgrade paths for weapons, rewards for ranking up on covenants), nothing in the game requires anything other than ten seconds of basic deduction and experimentation. Or things like The Great Hollow, that are meant to be hidden, and are completely optional. Same with the Darkmoon Covenant, the Izalith shorcut, etc.

You can go from the Firelink Shrine to Gwyn without looking in a guide with the information present in the game, and when that might not be enough, the messages left by other players usually suffice (say, using the Covenant of Artorias on New Londo). And I'm not saying just beating the game, you can learn how to summon and be summoned by people, using humanity and joining covenants, upgrading weapons through the basic paths, etc.

I really don't get where you come from with "carefully reading every line of dialogue" and making lots of conjectures, when that's necessary only for the optionalest of things (as it should). Thinking it by gaming standards is worthless because gaming standards are so fucking terrible that anything less than hand-holding and over-tutorializing (because that's what Dark Souls is, you even get huge popups saying "USE BONFIRES TO REGAIN HUMAN FORM") is considered "inaccesible" and obscure.
 
I like the new changes they seem to be making. I need a more thane subtle story when playing games outside of platformers. Also, making the game more "accesible" sounds awesome.

Now, the two things that need to change in order for me to buy this game. Make being invaded an option, and let me pause the game.
this is literally the worst post anyone has ever made about any from software game, ever.
 
You see it's a risk reward thing. The reward is seeing potentially helpful messages and co-op.

The risk is being invaded.

this is literally the worst post anyone has ever made about any from software game, ever.

Yep. Just go play another game really.

I get that. And I totally understand why players love this series for what it is, right now.

I'm only posting my wish list. If it didn't come true, it's not a big loss, and I will just pass on the game. Just one less sale. Not really going to hurt anyone.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
I don't really get why people want to play Dark Souls, but then want to take away half of what makes Dark Souls what it is, so in the end they end up with just another hack and slash game.

Not directed at you individually, just the general notion that some of the things that are core Dark Souls are flaws that need to be fixed.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
I don't really get why people want to play Dark Souls, but then want to take away half of what makes Dark Souls what it is, so in the end they end up with just another hack and slash game.

Half is really reaching here. Most of the complaints boil down to, "keep the difficulty, explain shit a little better."

Which is hardly an unreasonable request. Great as it was, Dark Souls wasn't perfect.
 
i'm going to pretend this is like the hobbit, i hear bad things about it and go in with a very low expectation and then i will be blown away.

PC version better be there at launch
 

SerRodrik

Member
I don't really get why people want to play Dark Souls, but then want to take away half of what makes Dark Souls what it is, so in the end they end up with just another hack and slash game.

Not directed at you individually, just the general notion that some of the things that are core Dark Souls are flaws that need to be fixed.

I'm a little baffled by it too. "I'd be interested in Dark Souls if it weren't for everything that makes Dark Souls interesting."
 
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