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DmC: Devil May Cry - Demo Thread [Demo out now on XBL & PSN]

D

Dahbomb

Member
The combat IS simpler and the style ranking system IS broken. There is overall less depth to the system and less execution requirement. The lack of lock on system is a problem, the floaty mechanics are indesirable and there are fundamental balance issues with the game even at its most basic form.

These are objective faults with the game and thus will be reiterated. You don't need a PhD in DMC to recognize some of these faults, as long as you played the previous DMC games past the standard difficulty setting you would realize this.
 
S

somesplace

Neo Member
Dahbomb said:
Stylish combat is one of the core pillars of the series. Even the original DMC was described by the director as a stylish action game. If you think that's "besides the point" then you are out of touch with the franchise in general and people can't really take your opinion on DMC seriously.
Click to expand...

i probably am. i liked DMC 3 (only one I played fully through), but i always felt like the enemies were a bit like test dummies, and it seemed a bit as if one was perpetually playing the "practice mode" of a fighting game, just to see what crazy moves they could throw down on a hapless opponent.

of course, i dont disagree that the combat should be stylish and look cool. this is a big part of the reason i still like the DMC series more than ninja gaiden. but i don't think combat should be performed just for the sake of looking cool... first and foremost, it should be about beating a challenging opponent, which is where DMC loses touch.

but this has departed somewhat from my original point.
 
G

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
somesplace said:
i think most people who speak out on internet forums hold your viewpoint, but here's something i find odd. anywhere i look, this game seems to be getting mostly (and early on, before people had played it, drastically) trash talked. most of the criticisms seemed, to me, to be about the combat being more simplistic. i wonder though, how many people really play the game in the "super stylish" manner depicted in some expert players' videos?

and i don't think your 3rd person analogy is a good one, unless DMC is actually so much simpler than its predecessors that it's actually like playing, for example, gears of war with no cover or items. i don't think this is the case. of course, i could be wrong.
Click to expand...

The other thing that you should consider is that not everyone can play DMC in a super stylish, input heavy way, but might still appreciate the fact that they can try to reach a similar level of control/timing with practice. I find stuff like that fun. It's a similar principle applied to fighting games.

My analogy to third person shooters isn't a direct comparison to DmC, but rather addressing your statement about how things that aren't necessary for beating a game are "besides the point" for you. Sometimes it's not about winning, it's about looking good while winning. Frankly, even most DmC supporters would agree about that.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
hypernima said:
I'm a DMC novice whose played DMC4
Is there that much a difference between this and DmC because I'm really not noticing it.
Click to expand...
You didn't notice that in DMC4 you have to lock on to do most special moves in the game? Or that there are no dodge buttons in DMC4?? Or that there are no modifiers attached to triggers in DMC4?
 
S

somesplace

Neo Member
Dahbomb said:
The combat IS simpler and the style ranking system IS broken. There is overall less depth to the system and less execution requirement. The lack of lock on system is a problem, the floaty mechanics are indesirable and there are fundamental balance issues with the game even at its most basic form.

These are objective faults with the game and thus will be reiterated. You don't need a PhD in DMC to recognize some of these faults, as long as you played the previous DMC games past the standard difficulty setting you would realize this.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it.

I really haven't seen too much of the game. But from what i have seen, I'm surprised there is such a negative reception. I would have expected more people to react like hypernima, for example.
 
L

lowhighkang_LHK

Member
You can beat any action game with standard combos as long as your defense is good enough.

Also, can we stop saying Ninja Gaiden had good A.I? Because it doesn't. It just has enemies with more frequent attack cycles. Which would not make sense in a DMC game considering there is no fucking block button. If you actually "LOOK" at the A.I being demonstrated by the enemies in the NG games, you'll see that it's just as dumb. They simply rotate around Ryu and have more frequent attack cycles and block more often. DMC would pretty much be broken as a game if the enemies behaved the same way.

somesplace said:
Fair enough, I'll take your word for it.

I really haven't seen too much of the game. But from what i have seen, I'm surprised there is such a negative reception. I would have expected more people to react like hypernima, for example.
Click to expand...

Most people outside of our hardcore bubble (posters on a video game forum) within a bubble (hardcore devil may cry fans within a video game forum) probably do think like hypernima.

It's pretty shocking to know that most people can't wrap the heads around R1+direction stick back according to dante's relative position+/\ = hightime. From a general perspective, it's no wonder why Capcom opted to simplify the controls. It's the same reasoning why Capcom simplified the controls for Marvel vs. Capcom 3 from Marvel 2, what seems so easy for those already adept in competitive fighting games can't relate to the fact that the mechanics of these fighting games is simply too difficult for your average gamer.

I'm not even saying casual Wii-fit soccer mom gamer, but your regular joe. The kind of guy who couldn't get past Cerberus in DMC3, but probably still likely beat DMC1 on easy auto if you want to give him a classification.
 
S

somesplace

Neo Member
GuardianE said:
The other thing that you should consider is that not everyone can play DMC in a super stylish, input heavy way, but might still appreciate the fact that they can try to reach a similar level of control/timing with practice. I find stuff like that fun. It's a similar principle applied to fighting games.

My analogy to third person shooters isn't a direct comparison to DmC, but rather addressing your statement about how things that aren't necessary for beating a game are "besides the point" for you. Sometimes it's not about winning, it's about looking good while winning. Frankly, even most DmC supporters would agree about that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I argue, though, that DMC is still quite a good looking game -- even the basic moves look awesome. So, even with regard to those obsessed with style, it succeeds on a basic level, just maybe not an advanced level.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
somesplace said:
i probably am. i liked DMC 3 (only one I played fully through), but i always felt like the enemies were a bit like test dummies, and it seemed a bit as if one was perpetually playing the "practice mode" of a fighting game, just to see what crazy moves they could throw down on a hapless opponent.
Click to expand...
So you beat DMC3 on DMD? Regular enemies are usually easily trounced but sub bosses and bosses provide a solid challenge on the highest difficulty in a DMC game. And there is always Bloody Palace if you want the challenge.

Also I should reiterate once again that I do think that DmC is a good action game and the combat in general is solid. All this talk is just in reference to previous DMC games. If this is your first DMC game or you just dabbled in DMC games before you are likely to come away impressed with the game. The system is such that a novice can start playing the game and perform combos that normally look like it would take skill to do in previous DMC games
 
H

Hypron

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
That reminds me of a friend who bitched about God of War 2 being boring because you can just do Square-Square-Triangle the whole time

I mean hey, you like playing in the most boring way possible, that's fine, but there a lot of other interesting/fun options you left on the table there.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.

In a DMC game, the main objective is not to simply finish the game, it's to enjoy the combat system. Spamming the same combo all the way through a game is boring any way you look at it, but it can be understandable when you are playing through a heavily story-focused game with sub par combat, because you just want to know what happens next in the story and don't care about the fights.

The Devil May Cry franchise is the absolute opposite of this, the scenario is not important, the meat of the game is the combat system. Just finishing the game is easy, even on the highest difficulties. What's harder (and far more rewarding) is trying to make the best combo you can, finishing a level without dying (and later on without getting hit once you're good enough). If you are disappointed because you can cheese your way through the game, you're playing the wrong game. Seriously, there are heaps of other games out there for you.
 
S

somesplace

Neo Member
lowhighkang_LHK said:
You can beat any action game with standard combos as long as your defense is good enough.

Also, can we stop saying Ninja Gaiden had good A.I? Because it doesn't. It just has enemies with more frequent attack cycles. Which would not make sense in a DMC game considering there is no fucking block button. If you actually "LOOK" at the A.I being demonstrated by the enemies in the NG games, you'll see that it's just as dumb. They simply rotate around Ryu and have more frequent attack cycles and block more often. If the enemies acted like that in a DMC game it would fundamentally be broken because Dante can't block. It's Devil May Cry not Devil May Dodge with the occasional stylish combo that you can pull off once in a blue moon because the enemies attack so often.
Click to expand...

I would argue that this is better AI. Of course adjustments would have to be made in other areas of the game to support more aggressive enemies. This is somewhat beside the point, though.
 
G

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Supermanisdead said:
wow, did not know dmc hd price had gone so low. might pick it up when my current games are finished.
Click to expand...

Yep. $15.99 on Newegg and $16.99 on Amazon. It's still around $30 most everywhere else.


somesplace said:
I would argue that this is better AI. Of course adjustments would have to be made in other areas of the game to support more aggressive enemies. This is somewhat beside the point, though.
Click to expand...

Honestly, it's really not better A.I. DMC3 and 4's enemies have attack patterns as expansive as NG's enemies. NG enemies are not especially reactive enemies, they simply spam attacks and patterns. The key difference, as LHK mentioned, is that Hayabusa has more defensive options made available to him at any given time. It's a design choice, not a flaw.
 
S

somesplace

Neo Member
Dahbomb said:
So you beat DMC3 on DMD? Regular enemies are usually easily trounced but sub bosses and bosses provide a solid challenge on the highest difficulty in a DMC game. And there is always Bloody Palace if you want the challenge.
Click to expand...

No, I think I only played it on normal. I agree though, the bosses are excellent, and definitely the best part of the game, in my opinion.

I guess I missed ViewtifulJC's post, which was a good one. I would make that exact criticism of God of War, actually. To me, it's always more fun to beat a hard opponent, even in the ugliest way possible, than to trounce an easy one in the most spectacular way possible. I believe DMC, and all action games, really, should aim for both -- challenging opponents and spectacular attacks. I think DMC has always been too skewed towards flash, but it seems most feel this is the series' "signature", as many seem quite ready to remind me.
 
B

BeautifulMemory

Member
Hypron said:
Pretty much.

In a DMC game, the main objective is not to simply finish the game, it's to enjoy the combat system. Spamming the same combo all the way through a game is boring any way you look at it, but it can be understandable when you are playing through a heavily story-focused game with sub par combat, because you just want to know what happens next in the story and don't care about the fights.

The Devil May Cry franchise is the absolute opposite of this, the scenario is not important, the meat of the game is the combat system. Just finishing the game is easy, even on the highest difficulties. What's harder (and far more rewarding) is trying to make the best combo you can, finishing a level without dying (and later on without getting hit once you're good enough). If you are disappointed because you can cheese your way through the game, you're playing the wrong game. Seriously, there are heaps of other games out there for you.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Might just be me, but I still find it hard to believe that someone can just cheese through DMD. Like you said, maybe with the regular enemies (but even that requires fundamentals on offense and defense). But against boss fights? The player doesn't do enough damage if we don't know what we are doing. Also, while I will admit this is a very far distant goal of mine, besides stylish combat I also look at DMC as trying to beat it with no health items, on normal, on hard, on DMD - and again, I am sure it's possible, but with that in mind I find chessing to be quite improbable unless it's intentional (aka someone has a deeper understanding of the game and trying to different combat appraoches)
 
I

Infinite Justice

Member
Remember now

1355015669218l7icy.gif


Do it with Style
 
fi1ip

fi1ip

Member
GuardianE said:
Honestly, it's really not better A.I. DMC3 and 4's enemies have attack patterns as expansive as NG's enemies. NG enemies are not especially reactive enemies, they simply spam attacks and patterns. The key difference, as LHK mentioned, is that Hayabusa has more defensive options made available to him at any given time. It's a design choice, not a flaw.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree that these two combat systems should not be compared like this. But I would just like to add that DMC4 Dante has a lot of defensive options available to him at all times. He has block, perfectly timed block, royal release (his most badass move if you ask me), trickster style dashes and teleport plus his standard rolls and jump (a lot of people don't realize that simple jump has invisibility frames). That is A LOT of defensive options. It's just that the whole combat system is so different compared to NG that direct comparison doesn't make any sense.

DMC3 Date has all of this but not at the same time depending on the style you choose.

Bayonetta as well has pretty much all the defensive options you can imagine but that combat system also does not require you to use defense as much as NG does.

New Date is limited as there are no royal guard moves. Perry mechanics are good addition but they seem way to random, except on bosses...
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Parry has always been in DMC games ever since the original. The best way to beat bosses like Nelo Angelo and Agni/Rudra is by parrying. Its not a new addition but they have glorified it now so its easier to perform and spot. Plus its more useful now against a wider range of attacks.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Glass Rebel said:
b2mkq.png


he's an expert
Click to expand...
The problem is that DmC is balanced around 30FPS game play unlike the previous games so even if you play it at 60FPS it's going to have the same level of responsiveness and speed. It's actually going to look slower when played on 60FPS. This was evident when playing the demo, everything had a much more lenient requirement to it.

I don't really care about what they call the style accolades because they have been different in every game but just for the sake of unison they should've labelled SSS "Stylish" just like all the previous games.
 
B

bounchfx

Member
Just played the demo, was pleasantly surprised. Combat was fun, art was amazing, Dante was a complete douche but he actually has a lot of character, and the world was trippy as shit. Demo definitely got me interested.
 
Glass Rebel

Glass Rebel

Member
Dahbomb said:
The problem is that DmC is balanced around 30FPS game play unlike the previous games so even if you play it at 60FPS it's going to have the same level of responsiveness and speed. It's actually going to look slower when played on 60FPS. This was evident when playing the demo, everything had a much more lenient requirement to it.

I don't really care about what they call the style accolades because they have been different in every game but just for the sake of unison they should've labelled SSS "Stylish" just like all the previous games.
Click to expand...

obviously but the same user said in an earlier comment that the current 30fps DmC has the same responsiveness as the old DMC, which is... eh.
 
C

CosmicGroinPull

Member
So I finally gave this demo a try, and surprisingly, I managed to finish it without getting turned off. It's no Devil May Cry, but it's a decent knockoff. I'd definitely rent it or play it if I got it for free.


(PS3 version)

Pros:

-Combat is quite smooth despite 30fps. I was never bothered by the framerate while playing
-I like the L2 to pull yourself towards, R2 to pull towards you mechanic
-Hooded girl's ass in hotpants... yumm
-In terms of presentation, it definitely offers a fresh change from Devil May Cry
-The giant bug boss fight was fun


Cons:

-Framerate chugs in the cutscenes (well, at least it's not during gameplay)
-Graphics look.... rough. The game doesn't look HD, and on top of that, I hate the oversaturated color scheme.
-Played on normal, and the enemies are too easy. Unlike Devil May Cry, I don't even have to pause a moment to figure out how to kill it, I can just do it with brute force.
-No more lock-on and single-button for dodging? Might become an annoyance for tougher enemies
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I am pretty embarrassed for the entire DMC community for not figuring this out sooner.

Just like there are "Just" charges for Gilgamesh in DMC4... there is at least one Just charge move in DmC that I have found. The one that I have found is with Drive LVL2 (the fully charged up version). If you release the charge at the moment the sword flashes it releases the perfect Overdrive. The normally fully charged version is white with a hint of red but a perfect Overdrive is all red. As you would imagine it hits harder and gives more style boost, hits more times too. I am 90% sure this applies to Osiris' Raze move as well... gonna test this in a bit.

Maybe someone figured it out before but I just did today and didn't know about this.

Edit:

Looked up on IGN boards and someone made a video about it with all the moves. Confirmed "Just" charges apply to all chargeable moves in DmC (Drive, Ricoshot and Raze) and potentially will apply to Eryx as well (just like Gilgamesh in DMC4):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=97STmgmJiXU

So basically Devil Trigger -> Demon Dodge -> Eryx Perfect Charge LVL2 is going to be the next "Godfist".
 
E

ezekial45

Banned
Dahbomb said:
I am pretty embarrassed for the entire DMC community for not figuring this out sooner.

Just like there are "Just" charges for Gilgamesh in DMC4... there is at least one Just charge move in DmC that I have found. The one that I have found is with Drive LVL2 (the fully charged up version). If you release the charge at the moment the sword flashes it releases the perfect Overdrive. The normally fully charged version is white with a hint of red but a perfect Overdrive is all red. As you would imagine it hits harder and gives more style boost, hits more times too. I am 90% sure this applies to Osiris' Raze move as well... gonna test this in a bit.

Maybe someone figured it out before but I just did today and didn't know about this.

Edit:

Looked up on IGN boards and someone made a video about it with all the moves. Confirmed "Just" charges apply to all chargeable moves in DmC (Drive, Ricoshot and Raze) and potentially will apply to Eryx as well (just like Gilgamesh in DMC4):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=97STmgmJiXU

So basically Devil Trigger -> Demon Dodge -> Eryx Perfect Charge LVL2 is going to be the next "Godfist".
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I'm glad to see people are uncovering more stuff about the demo.

Anyway, this is late, but Lens of Truth did a comparison between the demos.
http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-dmc-devil-may-cry-demo-screenshot-comparison/2/

Surprising, the PS3 version has got some rather large strengths over the 360 version (which still performed better). Hopefully it'll all be ironed out before release.
 
E

Eusis

Member
CosmicGroinPull said:
-Combat is quite smooth despite 30fps. I was never bothered by the framerate while playing
Click to expand...
The lack of v-sync bugged me more to be honest. I could deal with no v-sync if it meant 60fps, or 30 FPS if it was reliable and v-sync'd like what little I played of Ninja Gaiden Sigma Plus, but non-v synced 30 is lame. Maybe it'll be a solid 30 on 360 with v-sync? I know their PS3 port of Enslaved was rather hideous.
ezekial45 said:
Surprising, the PS3 version has got some rather large strengths over the 360 version (which still performed better). Hopefully it'll all be ironed out before release.
Click to expand...
... I guess it's a case of "be careful what you wish for". :/
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Swedish LEVEL game this game a 9/10...
 
U

ultim8p00

Banned
lowhighkang_LHK said:
You can beat any action game with standard combos as long as your defense is good enough.

Also, can we stop saying Ninja Gaiden had good A.I? Because it doesn't. It just has enemies with more frequent attack cycles. Which would not make sense in a DMC game considering there is no fucking block button. If you actually "LOOK" at the A.I being demonstrated by the enemies in the NG games, you'll see that it's just as dumb. They simply rotate around Ryu and have more frequent attack cycles and block more often. DMC would pretty much be broken as a game if the enemies behaved the same way.


Most people outside of our hardcore bubble (posters on a video game forum) within a bubble (hardcore devil may cry fans within a video game forum) probably do think like hypernima.

It's pretty shocking to know that most people can't wrap the heads around R1+direction stick back according to dante's relative position+/\ = hightime. From a general perspective, it's no wonder why Capcom opted to simplify the controls. It's the same reasoning why Capcom simplified the controls for Marvel vs. Capcom 3 from Marvel 2, what seems so easy for those already adept in competitive fighting games can't relate to the fact that the mechanics of these fighting games is simply too difficult for your average gamer.

I'm not even saying casual Wii-fit soccer mom gamer, but your regular joe. The kind of guy who couldn't get past Cerberus in DMC3, but probably still likely beat DMC1 on easy auto if you want to give him a classification.
Click to expand...

Oh hell fucking no. This shit is on now.

You obviously don't know shit about the AI in the NG series, more specifically NG Black. The AI in that game runs circles around DMC, and not just because they block more often (btw that's a hallmark of good AI - aka not being cabbage heads) or have more attack cycles (oh shit really, you mean they don't stand around waiting to get killed?).

The AI actually reacts to what you do. Take for example the rocket launcher soldiers. If you've played the game, you'll notice that they don't actually shoot at you randomly. They wait for you to let your guard up or be in vulnerable frames to attack. Go a head and test it. Boot up NGB and hold the block button. They rarely shoot at you. Now do a wind roll. The minute you recover from the roll, they WILL shoot you. The minute you let go of the block button or move around, they will shoot you. If you jump, they won't shoot at you until you actually land again.

The soldiers in general will block all of your attack strings and punish you with a throw during recovery frames.

Cats will FS you more often if you try to abuse air combos.

Some enemies have moves to specifically counter yours.

Super purple fiends will do their underground teleport air combo attack as soon as ANY ENEMY guardbreaks you.

I could go on and on about how fucking awesome the enemy AI in NGB is. DMC's AI is complete garbage in comparison. Not even close. I understand your point about DMC kind of needing the enemies to be cabbage heads. It's true, otherwise you'd be constantly getting hit out of combos. But don't shit on NG's AI when you clearly don't know anything about it.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
ezekial45 said:
Oh sweet. Is it in your possession? If so, can you share any details about the review itself? What they liked, disliked, etc.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'll go and grab it. Gimme a moment.
 
C

crazyjah2003

Member
Those review scores indicate that this will not be in the Ninja Gaiden 3 range of suckness.
I am assuming the scores for NG3 were low from the get go.
 
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