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[Eurogamer\DF] Orbis Unmasked: what to expect from the next-gen PlayStation.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
Not currently, but it's something I wouldn't be surprised to hear about during the coming generation. I'm even thinking we will see the a first cloud exclusive game at some point.
On hybrid processing though, I do actually think it's possible the development platform can be extended so that developers have a local box + some pool of remote processing resources to work with. But the rules about how to use that remote processing resource would probably have to require a graceful 'scaling up' or degradation if the user isn't net connected and/or doesn't have a 'premium cloud' subscription, or whatever the business model supports.
Not all processing has to be same-frame. I think you'll see a lot of visual perception studies done to see what can lag slightly and what can't. For example, do reflections on every surface in a scene need to be per frame up to date? Is there some processing you want to spread over a number of frames, that you could fire off to remote processing instead and get back in a few frames time? Etc. etc.
I think it will be investigated, at least. The possibilities grow as the 'frame lag' between the local and remote processing reduce.
I think Gaikai people hinted at the possibilities of a 'Gaikai OS' with cloud features people could tap through a SDK. I would guess they've been looking at how local and remote machines can co-operate.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Bioware made MDK!?!?
Respect +100
Respect +100
it's tedious.
Brad Grenz
Member
His point about Bioware isn't even true. They developed MDK 2 for Dreamcast and PS2 years before KOTOR came around. Otherwise, his posts don't really indicate he knows any more than anyone else who has been paying attention to the speculation threads here and on B3D.
It's false.
gaming_noob
Member
considering that rumors suggest both will be on par with each other and since Sony has beast RAM, does that also mean Sony was short sighted on other aspects of the hardware? We can't answer anything because it's still all just rumors. Quite silly to take sides this early.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Just because he made a mistake, doesn't mean the whole thing is BS..jesus, just about about every article published by so called 'professional journalists' have some inaccuracy's in them..
It's really well known that MDK2 was Bioware's first big console game. And why would Sony put back in Linux after Hackerfest?
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Maybe he was thinking of Bioware's signature genre..RPG's, when he wrote it. Thats what i think of when Bioware is mentioned.
eso76
Member
hmm..
we can't draw conclusions until we know more about that secret sauce and ingredients both consoles seem to be using.
but it does seem that x720 is using a lot of resources for things other than gaming i don't care about.
In this case, i can see myself only buying a Ps4 next gen.
we can't draw conclusions until we know more about that secret sauce and ingredients both consoles seem to be using.
but it does seem that x720 is using a lot of resources for things other than gaming i don't care about.
In this case, i can see myself only buying a Ps4 next gen.
Vol5
Member
It looks like Sony are being smart with this design....probably forced to be after the Cell / BR shit storms.
A single die featuring both the APU and fast GPU equals:
Less R&D as AMD were already producing a fully integrated design, of sorts.
They are maximizing the 28nm process.
They are maximising bandwidth.
Overall price will go down per nm iteration.
A single die featuring both the APU and fast GPU equals:
Less R&D as AMD were already producing a fully integrated design, of sorts.
They are maximizing the 28nm process.
They are maximising bandwidth.
Overall price will go down per nm iteration.
Found this while using Google Fu:
Durango Combination ($14) BBQ pork tostada, crispy tortilla bottom layered with a mound of juicy, smoked pulled BBQ pork, topped with a light dash of sour cream sauce and pickled red onions. Skirt steak taco, soft tortilla filled with grilled skirt steak, lettuce, pico de gallo, cilantro, pickled red onions & cotija cheese (This cheese is so good!). Quesadilla con queso, tortilla filled with chihuahua cheese and grilled. Very delicious on its own, but top it with some guacamole and BBQ pork YUM!
I don't know if it has been addressed yet, but 512Mb for GDDR5 Ram reserved for the OS is too much RAM for a SONY console.
And i hope the AMD GPU won't be a gimped-featured GPU with lack of Directcompute, unlike that NVIDIA sham that lacked all the CUDA support in the one machine that could have used it.
Also I'm expecting nothing less than an ultra-mini tower case for both OrbiPS and DurangBoX
Android XMB?
And i hope the AMD GPU won't be a gimped-featured GPU with lack of Directcompute, unlike that NVIDIA sham that lacked all the CUDA support in the one machine that could have used it.
Also I'm expecting nothing less than an ultra-mini tower case for both OrbiPS and DurangBoX
That's my first impression, but I'm also incredibly curious what crazy stuff MS has planned to need that overhead.
The ultimate media centre would be something I'd have to have - nobody has cracked it yet.
dragonelite
Member
That must bring them to a negative 80 Respect right now.
eot
Banned
Yeah that was just a load of garbage, the guy obviously doesn't have any inside info.
The requirement could come down to something as 'simple' as windows rt software compatibility which would introduce a level of memory bloat on the app sandbox that would be unusual in an embedded/console context. (With headroom for continuing 'good experience' with windows app software over x years). We'll see.
nope, there will be no significant hardware processing on user side for sure...
1. Introduces lag that adds to already inevitable controller lag
2. Needs upload bandwith thats at premium everywhere
3. Main point of Cloud streaming is that you could use cheapest possible device to enable it, thus making money on profitable services and not subsidizing the hardware. For instance Sony could/should/will add gaikai on all of their TVs, BD Players, Phones, thus adding hundred million possible users, per year.
I am surprised that this question got asked in the first place. But I guess it makes sense in the thread where most people discuss special sauces.
Wrong on all accounts.Do you have a video? Downsampling truly does wonders for the visual mess that Gears 3, sadly is.
The only graphical effects worthy of mention that I see is the smoke. Which really doesn't look like I remembered it.
The lighting is baked, there's not shadow casting at all, really hard to see motion blur, no DoF, no noticeable AO (if at all), the light from the gunshot is nothing that Gears 1 didn't already do. First thing I noticed is the hilarious stun animation from Baird/Marcus?
It looks good, but it is what it is technically.
1) The global illumination is baked but there are a fair amount of real time lights that you'd come to expect from games these days (if you believe that Gears 3 has completely baked lighting then so does something like Halo 4, considering just how many lights in the game are actually just glows and pre baked onto textures.).
2) Shadow casting is everywhere (especially in campaign)
3) They have per object motion blur (quite subtle) which gets applied everywhere and not just on the outside edge of screen like Halo 3/reach.
4) There is DoF even if itś just a gaussian blur and not bokeh.
5) They've had AO since Gears 2 days, Also AO SHOULD NOT be noticeable, if itś noticeable then it's a bad implementation.
Gears 3 is technically amazing for the Xbox 360.
Yeah but WinRT mem requirements are x smaller than Windows 8 itself so it doesnt account for 3 GB. If you simply install Win8 and run all services, it wouldnt take up more than 1.5 GB.
It just doesnt make any sense. Most sense that could be made would be for web browsing, since those unoptimized web pages can take a lot of memory as we all know but who really cares about running 20 browser windows on your TV?
There was talk about 720 being media server to other devices... but that isnt especially RAM heavy at all... if it was to serve games to other devices sure, but that takes up CPU so not possible.
We're not talking about games requiring local processing resources.
Let's say you have a game like GT6. Let's say it's running on your PS4. Let's say it sees you've got a connection and are subbed up to PSCloud, or whatever, and then activates some optional cloud related features or enhancements. That's all nice, but that same GT6 could still run entirely off the cloud to thin devices.
Wolves Evolve
Member
You need 3GB of RAM to run
The 1.5GB for the Windows 8 in the console.
+
The 1.5GB to run the Windows RT on your new 'dumb' tablet controller streamed from the box.
Of course.
The 1.5GB for the Windows 8 in the console.
+
The 1.5GB to run the Windows RT on your new 'dumb' tablet controller streamed from the box.
Of course.
That's interesting to think about. You can fit almost all of Skyrim (3.8GB) into PS4 memory lol
Take Win RT, how much memory do you need for a decent Win RT experience today? Surface ships with 2GB, but people say that that might be overkill, that their typical usage doesn't go much beyond 1GB.
That's still 1GB, today, for a specific individual's typical session. But MS is putting 2GB in there for a reason - so that that Surface unit can still provide a decent experience into the future. I'm not just talking about the core requirements of the OS, I mean requirements for a typical session of having some apps open in the background etc.
The 720 is going to be a primary box for Microsoft in your living for maybe 7 or 8 years. Microsoft might acknowledge that 1GB is enough for a Windows app sandbox in 720 today, but might be looking down the line. They might also then be adding on top some 720 specific services around kinect etc. And then they might be looking at game memory requirements and thinking 'well, 5GB is a good bit for games anyway, so why not be safe?'
Now I'm not saying it's 3GB, I have NO idea. 1.5GB or 1GB is quite plausible. But I don't think there's 'no possible explanation' for 3GB if they're going to merge the xbox app ecosystem with windows or windows RT.
michaelius
Banned
jeff_rigby
Banned
FreeBSD like in the PS3 for the game side and a "simplier" Linux for the Application side of the PS4. That's what I understand.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/06/20/2046233/amd-to-open-source-its-linux-execution-compilation-stack said:
PS4 rumored to have other OS Linux support and at PS4 release a firmware update to the PS3 will enable Other OS Linux support.
http://sonyps4.com/os-support-feature-banned-and-the-ps4/
The first part, providing Linux support as Other OS in the PS4 makes sense as it did with the PS3, an effort to expose heterogeneous computing and Cell and with the PS4, to expose AMD's Open Source HSA and OpenCL to as many programmers as possible.
The second part, enabling other OS support for the PS3 would be a marketing (sales) effort or perhaps support for Linux.
Intel is behind Wayland/Westin 1.0 composition layer (using Cairo) instead of Xwindows due in a few months then GTK rewrites to optionally eliminate Xwindows GDK calls. Latest Linux kernel has now absorbed the Google Android Linux kernel changes that didn't use Xwindows (Tim Bird of Sony) and optimized to support embedded lower resource platforms. Latest Linux kernel is now smaller and faster. Rewrite for Glib to use Android D-Buss routines and more to make it faster and smaller. Combine them all and you have a smaller eLinux platform like Tizen or a optimized Gnome Mobile that can also be used for desktop.
In AMD presentations there are references to DRM (Blu-ray) and built-in control points. A special "simpler" Linux kernel could limit features. I don't know how this will play out.
Midnight Phoenix
Member
You always can use swap to put unused files to HDD. What game uses 3.5GB of resources? Do not forget, that more RAM you use, the more horsepower you need. Big amount of RAM good for production applications and multi-task.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
And has I said on a previous page, whatever the final RAM reservation is will be fixed for life has the 32MB was for 360.
No taking back RAM in the future.
No taking back RAM in the future.
he was asking about games requiring local processing though... and you wrote about reflections, etc, etc
.I am sure cloud features will be there... probably on all devices that support it, kind of how steam adds its features to all pc's.
Gaikai is actually the most important thing that Sony has right now. If they can make it work, thats their service to push and real differentiator between them and competition. Imagine paying $8 per month for streaming of +2-3 year old games + renting current ones. Or possibly paying $8 for streaming older games + ability to stream PS4 games that you have registered as owner, like on steam for instance where it allows you to have multiple devices but play one instance. So you can have it locally in PS4 but also continue gaming on the go with your phone.
michaelius
Banned
I think there must be a sane consious reason for putting that 8 gigs today and not just reserving some part of it for future proofing - even if 4 or 6 gb of ram would save them few bucks per console then it's half a bilion USD over the console lifetime in additional costs.
So are these next gen consoles going to be physically small or what? wsippel in the Wii-U not enough bandwidth thread described these specs as netbook and notebook hardware. Obviously it won't be as thin as a laptop but could we possibly see these next gen consoles launch with a smaller form factor than the current PS3 slim?
CadetMahoney
Member
Sounds like extreme reaching, exclusives can and will exist regardless of hardware parity.
So they should collude with each other on hardware specs because it "forces them to be more creative to differentiate themselves". . . Let's be as similar as poss hardware wise so we can be more different? Doesn't make sense. I don't see that being in their mandate when deciding on specs.
That only applies to the console manufacturer who is underpowered, not both of them. Which would be the point of releasing a more powerful machine - you know offering more than the competition. You can add caveats such as price, but we must assume they will both use the loss-leader model so it's just a matter of who has deeper pockets.
Brad Grenz
Member
Smaller than the Slim? Probably not. There's a lot of room between netbook level hardware (which you might compare the WiiU to) and Desktop replacement laptop hardware (which would be closer to the rumored Orbis/Durango specs).
specialguy
Banned
not true at all. you cant go bigger, you can go smaller. sony reduced the os footprint multiple times throughout the ps3 life.
ms likely had no need with 360 since they started with a svelte allotment.
Windows RT + the server functionalities for multiple users. A server needs RAM to run this all simultanously. Tablets are client devices for single users, so things can be moved into the background.
And then you still need some RAM for gaming related services.
We know from that powerpoint leak what they are envisioning.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62038
DVR, RT apps, SmartGlass, multiple users streaming media and gaming must be possible at the same time. One box to rule them all.
And then you still need some RAM for gaming related services.
We know from that powerpoint leak what they are envisioning.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62038
DVR, RT apps, SmartGlass, multiple users streaming media and gaming must be possible at the same time. One box to rule them all.
he was asking about games requiring local processing though... and you wrote about reflections, etc, etc
Well yeah, I don't think anyone is thinking of using local processing as a requirement for their cloud platform. Penetration to devices is important and you can't make assumptions, as you point out.
Yeah, preach. We'll see what comes of it, the extent of it and the business model will be interesting.
SirIgbyCeaser
Banned
Well microsoft has so many products under development that a 3gb reserve you know could let the xbox also work as a streaming server(even during gameplay), it could control the temperature in your home. Record tv shows and god knows what else. If they have users who use their xbox for almost everything. Microsoft can target a great selection of ads at their consumers and also get them all into the idea of paying for online game-play.
What intrigues me a little is with 3gb and 2 processor cores dedicated to other functions. Microsoft would have a super computer of every networked 360. Downloads with torrents function would be super fast. Game servers inside the network. Hardcore computing at the finger tips of the xbox devision.
It would actually be a pretty revolutionary idea if the super computer of ever xbox 720 networked together could be functional to consumers. There's things people could do with that that I can't imagine.
What intrigues me a little is with 3gb and 2 processor cores dedicated to other functions. Microsoft would have a super computer of every networked 360. Downloads with torrents function would be super fast. Game servers inside the network. Hardcore computing at the finger tips of the xbox devision.
It would actually be a pretty revolutionary idea if the super computer of ever xbox 720 networked together could be functional to consumers. There's things people could do with that that I can't imagine.
BrainZEROX
Member
PS3 didn't work like this. Its started with something like a 96 MB footprint and went down to around 64 MB. As the PS3 OS always reduced its footprint, backward compatibility with earlier games was maintained.
Regarding Microsoft I think they may look at all this the other way round. Instead of 3GB reserved to the OS, 5 GB max could be allocated to gaming. I agree with earlier reports and I think MS does not target a gaming console but a "box" with a gaming service running among other services for several users. Our approach is "what can 3GB bring to my gaming experience" when MS approach could be "How many resources allocated to the gaming services without gimping the whole box experience?".
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Exactly. In Microsoft's case whatever the RAM allocation ends up being will be fixed. That is what Bkilian said at B3D.
With Microsoft being the OS experts, it wasn't a surprise that Sony struggled in this area in comparison.
yeah all of that together will take up 100 MB. Torrents would take up 10 MB but that makes no sense nor will they give you that option.
Another thing is that PS4 will also have reserved part of CPU power for OS features - this is what PS3 is already doing, one SPU is doing OS! I cant believe all these "analysts" think that it can be done any other way.
PS3 can currently DVR TV shows in Japan and Europe while you play games. This is possible only because one SPU is reserved for OS and thus such features wont interrupt the gameplay.
PS4 will have to do the same thing.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
No, Shiny made MDK, then the team left to found Planet Moon Studios who made Giants: Citizen Kabuto and Armed and Dangerous before turning their attention to PSP, DS and Wii, and practically losing any relevance. Bioware just made the vastly inferior MDK 2.
Wat? MDK2 was incredible... And difficult.
michaelius
Banned
Even DDR1 ram is faster than hdds and optical drives.
shouamabane
Member
I want the simplest and fastest OS possible, with the fewest ads and distractions in my way.
Not going to happen.
Gemüsepizza
Member
If the PS3 and PS Vita is any indication, the PS4 will probably have such an OS, more or less .
As far as I know, the speed of mass storage (HDD or Blu-ray) is what's limiting loading times. Would be nice if we can swap the HDD for a faster one, now that SSDs with high capacities are getting really cheap.