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Anita Sarkeesian’s First ‘Tropes vs. Women in Games’ Video May Come Out Next Month

honorless

We don't have "get out of jail free" cards, but if we did, she'd have one.
Can you suggest an appropriate remedy for this problem? I'm not okay with limiting artistic expression simply because some morons can't cut through the fog. All manner of things can be twisted into something other than their intended meaning.
Education. If nobody really thinks women with PCOS who want insurance companies to cover the birth control they're using to reduce ovarian cysts are just "sluts who want the government to pay them to have sex" (as an example) jokes about women being the latter become absurdist. "It's funny because it's so ridiculous and impossible!"
Unfortunately, right now there are people saying "It's funny 'cuz it's TRUE!" and using that opinion to inform their actions in the real world.

A hypothetical that is less about artistry and more about a real world thing: if a boy gets off on a catalog of women wearing conservative business suits, and if many boys get off on said catalog, then is the impact that catalog has on society negative? Despite the fact that the intention behind the catalog was to sell conservative business suits to women?
I would argue that a private act of masturbation, even if a lot of people do it, doesn't have much of an effect on society.
 

Jenga

Banned
what if we made a game where this male soldier fights a war against all female soldiers

and instead of them dying they just get KOed

and you can s.link your female soldier friends into dates


i think i've just thought up a million seller gaf
 
So what about all the men being beat and shot up in games?
If you think that's a genuine problem--and I would probably agree it is in some ways--maybe you should make a series of YouTube videos explaining why. I hear from some folks they don't cost any time or money to make so you really have no excuse.
 

SummitAve

Banned
I was generally offended and disgusted by the game Catherine (I only played the demo). People who are up-in-arms over Bayonetta or the Dead Island Riptide bundle need to focus their attention on taking down that game and its marketing as well as those with a similar attitude towards sexuality.
 

Casimir

Unconfirmed Member
Same thing that happens when white people complain about being the butt of racial jokes. Privileged class, so grin and bear it.

...wow. So your rebuttal is basically, discrimination is okay against certain people/genders. That's never okay and you're missing the entire point of every single equality movement. You need to think long and hard about your views, maybe pull your head out of your ass and listen to some actual civil rights leaders.


I was generally offended and disgusted by the game Catherine (I only played the demo). People who are up-in-arms over Bayonetta or the Dead Island Riptide bundle need to focus their attention on taking down that game and those with a similar attitude towards sexuality.

Like Anita you actually need to play the game before you can come to any conclusion.

Secondly, just because you're offended doesn't mean you have the right, morally or legally, to deny the right of others to either produce or consume that material. And I say this as someone who was told to go back to my country and leave America for 'real Americans™'.
 

Margalis

Banned
We can objectively say that The Man Show isn't sexist, because it's deliberately trying to lampoon the stereotypical boneheaded-way men look at women.

The fact that is had a "ain't men so silly?" tone does nothing to make it not sexist. The show was largely about hot women that the primarily male audience could ogle. Adam Carolla is a troglodyte that embodies most of those stereotypes you claim the show was lampooning.

This seems like classic case of having your cake and eating it too. Hell, this is how wikipedia described it:

The Man Show simultaneously celebrated and lampooned the stereotypical loutish male perspective in a sexually charged, humorous light.

As far as your use of the word "objectively" - uh no. Simply claiming you're doing something ironically doesn't mean that you are or that you're doing it well enough to distinguish it from a non-ironic interpretation. Being ironic is not a free pass. And let's get real, the show had hot women on because that's what men like, not as some sort of biting critique of men's psyche.

Edit: Calling The Man Show a "satire" seems fairly ridiculous. A comedic exaggeration? Sure. But regardless of semantics the idea that the show was fighting the good fight against sexism is absurd.
 
I was generally offended and disgusted by the game Catherine (I only played the demo). People who are up-in-arms over Bayonetta or the Dead Island Riptide bundle need to focus their attention on taking down that game and those with a similar attitude towards sexuality.

From what I played of it Catherine wasn't that bad, it reminded me more of a sitcom than anything.
 

SummitAve

Banned
From what I played of it Catherine wasn't that bad, it reminded me more of a sitcom than anything.


Catherine-Box-Art-Expanded.jpg


I mean come on...this shit is terrible.
 
Catherine-Box-Art.jpg

catherine_ps3_cover1.jpg


I mean come on...



I don't know to be honest if you are courting ladies do you want them to be beautiful or ugly?

Ill be the first to tell the truth. Shockingly I would rather they were pretty.

Does it matter if some games are created specifically for men? At the end of the day this game is about choosing whether to stay with your current lady or choose the new one. Men can immediately relate to such thing, women could also do the same (a lot easier) if it was the other way round.
 

pargonta

Member
I mean come on...this shit is terrible.

i think it's pretty amazing actually. the game deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated way underneath the weirdness and animation, with the underlying message that cheating is bad. but i'm sorry you were offended.

I hope sarkessian goes after catherine (if she can find something to fight), i would enjoy that discussion.
 

Riposte

Member
Ah, so we've already reached the part where the intention to censor things one doesn't like has been revealed?
 
Oh, the words I could say against Sarkeesian despite throwing all my weight behind #1ReasonWhy and other things.

All I can is this had better be worth it.
 

Casimir

Unconfirmed Member
Ah, so we've already reached the part where the intention to censor things one doesn't like has been revealed?

More or less. But god forbid if they are the one's being censored/not catered to. Everyone will need to hear about the moral outrage and stories of victimization and it will be delivered without an ounce of hypocracy.
 

SummitAve

Banned
i think it's pretty amazing actually. the game deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated way underneath the weirdness and animation, with the underlying message that cheating is bad. but i'm sorry you were offended.

It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.
 

Casimir

Unconfirmed Member
It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.

You admitted that you have no knowledge of the product yet stand here and see fit to declare judgement? Your being intellectually dishonest and are insulting everyone else who actually wants to have an intelligent conversation.


Edit: I'll throw you a bone, the underlying message of the game is not that cheating is bad. Try again.
 

pargonta

Member
It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.

it's been more than a year since i played it so i've lost my formal argument lol, i'm just saying vincent being lost in their feminine form has thematic significance from within the game.

the advertising is for sure meant for that attention grabbing. tropes v advertising indeed.
 
Can someone explain why this was actually funded? Beyond the shit storm and beyond all the drama, this program will not bring any insight into anything video game related because it simply doesn't have complex enough structures to support such critiques. I'm obviously hoping to be proven wrong, but this simply has no chance of being good enough to warrant such insane investment.
 
It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.

I mean this Dali painting is clearly just to excite immature people. Who's to say there isn't an underlying meaning to it all that you didn't quite catch?

 

SummitAve

Banned
You admitted that you have no knowledge of the product yet stand here and see fit to declare judgement? Your being intellectually dishonest and are insulting everyone else who actually wants to have an intelligent conversation.

I do have knowledge of the product, I played the demo and looked at the box/bundle. I was replying to a poster who was informing me even more about the game.


^^^That Dali comparison is absurd. It is not beating me over the face with how sexy that lady is and how much I just want to slip between her cleavage. There is a reason you can post art with nudity, and you can't post pics of porn. There is a huge difference in the focus of that piece.
 
I do have knowledge of the product, I played the demo and looked at the box/bundle. I was replying to a poster who was informing me even more about the game.


^^^That Dali comparison is absurd. It is not beating me over the face with how sexy that lady is and how much I just want to slip between her cleavage. There is a reason you can post art with nudity, and you can't post pics of porn. There is a huge difference in the focus of that piece.

I would argue she is naked for a reason and therefore one of the focusses in the painting, the semi-abstractness of it all leaves it to subjectivity. The same way Catherine is in general. Maybe I give people too much credit sometimes but a lot of the times creative decisions are made for a reason. Sometimes people get them other times they don't.
 

Shinta

Banned
Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.
The whole game is about Vincent being utterly terrified and helpless, caught between two women. It's a game about female sexuality dominating him.

Look at the cover, he's terrified and trying to escape. Neither of them are "overly exposed" either. There's no nudity at all. And as far as the climbing part, the entire game is a puzzle climber, so it's not for no reason.
 
I don't believe Anita deserved all the cyber bulling she got, nor do I think it is a topic that shouldn't be discussed. However, I don't believe she's the right person for the job. She misses key issues in some things, and tends to focus on the wrong problems and just twist them to fit her agenda.

600full-the-nostalgia-chick-screenshot.jpg


If there were someone whom I think could tackle this issue, Lindsay Ellis would be it (AKA the Nostalgia Chick). Her videos address problems in media without sounding like an angry man hater. I'm a much bigger fan of her editing style and how she keeps the videos entertaining to drive her point home.

Seriously, check out her video on early 90's doll marketing, it make sher point far better than Anita's Lego video.
 

Mononoke

Banned
I do have knowledge of the product, I played the demo and looked at the box/bundle. I was replying to a poster who was informing me even more about the game.


^^^That Dali comparison is absurd. It is not beating me over the face with how sexy that lady is and how much I just want to slip between her cleavage. There is a reason you can post art with nudity, and you can't post pics of porn. There is a huge difference in the focus of that piece.

Wait, you only played the Demo?

lol
 
It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.
The marketing for the game was total garbage but the actual game underneath was a lot more thoughtful (and thought-provoking) than you're giving it credit for. It was certainly not as shallow or simplistic as "cheating is bad" and leaving it at that.
 
I don't believe Anita deserved all the cyber bulling she got, nor do I think it is a topic that shouldn't be discussed. However, I don't believe she's the right person for the job. She misses key issues in some things, and tends to focus on the wrong problems and just twist them to fit her agenda.

600full-the-nostalgia-chick-screenshot.jpg


If there were someone whom I think could tackle this issue, Lindsay Ellis would be it (AKA the Nostalgia Chick). Her videos address problems in media without sounding like an angry man hater. I'm a much bigger fan of her editing style and how she keeps the videos entertaining to drive her point home.

Seriously, check out her video on early 90's doll marketing, it make sher point far better than Anita's Lego video.

Thats a worry I was having, I don't think I can take a piece seriously if I have a doubt that it could be contorted in her own favour. There needs to be some kind of mediator in there maybe having her and another bloke in order to get two possible sides to issue.
 
I don't know to be honest if you are courting ladies do you want them to be beautiful or ugly?

Ill be the first to tell the truth. Shockingly I would rather they were pretty.

Does it matter if some games are created specifically for men? At the end of the day this game is about choosing whether to stay with your current lady or choose the new one. Men can immediately relate to such thing, women could also do the same (a lot easier) if it was the other way round.

Yeah, I think some people look at this as marginalizing women when it's really just appealing to male sexuality.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.

Bro are you for real?

You gotta let some things just exist. It's one game in a world and history of games. You want people to "take it down" and games like it? It can't exist because it has sexual appeal toward men?

I... well I thought you were joking when I first read your posts.
 
The fact that is had a "ain't men so silly?" tone does nothing to make it not sexist. The show was largely about hot women that the primarily male audience could ogle. Adam Carolla is a troglodyte that embodies most of those stereotypes you claim the show was lampooning.

... As far as your use of the word "objectively" - uh no. Simply claiming you're doing something ironically doesn't mean that you are or that you're doing it well enough to distinguish it from a non-ironic interpretation. Being ironic is not a free pass. And let's get real, the show had hot women on because that's what men like, not as some sort of biting critique of men's psyche.

Edit: Calling The Man Show a "satire" seems fairly ridiculous. A comedic exaggeration? Sure. But regardless of semantics the idea that the show was fighting the good fight against sexism is absurd.

Your criticisms of the show are largely incorrect, and are, again, based on you having watched probably no more than one or two episodes, if even that. (And that would still be more than some other professional feminist writers have watched before criticizing it.) I can't know that for sure, but I'm going to assume that. Before anything else, you're being intellectually dishonest because you haven't properly engaged with the text in question.

Beyond that, the artists have stated their intention, and that is all that matters -- they clearly intended it to be satire. The show was primarily written by Jimmy Kimmel, who has repeatedly stated that it was all satire, but Carolla has also affirmed this. That gives them license to do precisely what they were doing. Your unstated major premise is clear from your tone: you find it in poor taste; perhaps you even find it offensive. That in itself is irrelevant. It is satire, no bones about it, and it achieves precisely what it is gunning for.

Integral to the very definition of satire is to produce something that appears to be real. Some of our greatest comedic works are satirical. The British comedian Chris Morris developed an entire series of satirical documentaries, one advocating the abuse of animals, another the use of drugs. While I'm not interested in putting words in your mouth, I cannot abide by anyone who would limit satire as a technique simply because some dullards can't distinguish it from reality.

And though I've cut it out from the quote here, I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as a source, so I won't address that point seriously.

I happen not to be a tremendous fan of The Man Show -- I'm a much bigger fan of Loveline -- but your reliance on ad hominems against Carolla and the show reveals what you actually think about it. Even operating on the premise that you intend your charges seriously, you're simply incorrect in your analysis of the show, and I substantively disagree with you about what classifies as satire.

Finally, I never claimed that The Man Show was "fighting the good fight against sexism," but I certainly can't stop you from imagineering what other people are saying.
 

SummitAve

Banned
The marketing for the game was total garbage but the actual game underneath was a lot more thoughtful (and thought-provoking) than you're giving it credit for. It was certainly not as shallow or simplistic as "cheating is bad" and leaving it at that.

The marketing and the tone/attitude it portrays is what I have a problem with. I never discredited the story and content of the game because I only played the demo because the garbage marketing left me with no desire to play more.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Bro are you for real?

You gotta let some things just exist. It's one game in a world and history of games. You want people to "take it down" and games like it? It can't exist because it has sexual appeal toward men?

I... well I thought you were joking when I first read your posts.

Also laughable, considering he only played the Demo and knows for himself how bad it really is.

EDIT: To be fair, I think you can not have played the game - and still take issue with boxart/ campaign ads. I was more so talking about how he said the actual content doesn't matter. I disagree, the content is all that matters.
 

Casimir

Unconfirmed Member
I do have knowledge of the product, I played the demo and looked at the box/bundle. I was replying to a poster who was informing me even more about the game.


^^^That Dali comparison is absurd. It is not beating me over the face with how sexy that lady is and how much I just want to slip between her cleavage. There is a reason you can post art with nudity, and you can't post pics of porn. There is a huge difference in the focus of that piece.


No you don't, stop pretending that you do. You have enough information from the demo to visually identify the main and supporting characters and that the gameplay of Catherine is a call back to PS1 era puzzlers. You know nothing of the overarching storyline or anything about the real personalities/back story/desires nor development thereof of any character. And that poster who was 'informing you' also didn't play the game.

But hey I could be wrong so, use your trancendent powers of deduction to analyze this game:

Here's a gameplay demo/cutscene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81gCxvUo-dg

And here is the box art:
1466-shadow-of-the-colossus.jpg


And here is an uninformed summary:
The game is about death and destruction.

From the information provided, please wow us with a well thought out analysis of the games storyline, just as you insist to claim about Catherine.
 
It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine. Regardless of the actual content of the story or gameplay the box alone is pure objectification. Men are literally climbing over her overly exposed body parts for absolutely no fucking reason but to excite immature gamers who's interest and buying power is actually peeked by that.

I mean...the whole climbing/falling thing is actually quite terrifying in the game, so I think it's kind of funny that they're climbing/falling all over women on the box.

It felt to me like the message was more about societal pressure on people to "settle down" versus the inherent, animalistic desire to explore new frontiers, sow those wild oats, etc. The fear of growing older and settling into a pattern and not really "living" life, as it were, that young adults have to come to terms with as they get older. Is this struggle a uniquely male phenomenon? I don't think so--but even if it were, does that mean it's one that shouldn't be explored in media? Isn't that a bit unfair?

But whatever, it's got titties on the box so cry foul.
 

sleepykyo

Member
...wow. So your rebuttal is basically, discrimination is okay against certain people/genders. That's never okay and you're missing the entire point of every single equality movement. You need to think long and hard about your views, maybe pull your head out of your ass and talk to some actual civil rights leaders.

I'm sorry, you took that at face value.

My honest views:

1. Feminism is a horrible name. Black supremacy was a terrible name. Imagine if affirmative action was poor, minority job aid or the Patriot Act was called the Military State act.

2. I actually think my earlier post is terrible for building consensus. It essentially makes light of the concerns of the group that is losing their privileges. A better response would be "If that is something concerns you, you're free to start a separate discussion of it." It deals with people using it to deflect from concerns about sexism or misogyny without belittling anyone that is sincerely concerned about it.

3. Rape on a purely philosophical will never be a worse offense than murder in my eyes. Death is permanent and the victim doesn't have to choice to recover from it. In the case of rape, the person can climb the long, hard road to recovery or kill themselves. Though I'll concede the logic is rather cold.

4. If I don't care about jokes about murder (which I generally don't find care about, although I do tend to be averse to gore) unless their specifically toward someone one I know, it is only natural that I apply the same rule to rape (even if more often than not those jokes fall flat).

5. I have a hard time seeing sexism as widespread as others when Bayonetta is called widely popular, ditto for DOA, etc.

6. In regards to censorship, I'm squeamish but I don't expect all horror movies to be bloodless. I just accept that there are some movies I won't watch. As the demand for metal bikinis decreases the prevalence of it will decrease to reflect that just like sexploitation cinema came and went in every country. To a certain extent we are already seeing this. eg. DNF was criticized for excessive misogyny.
 
itt: people compare "The Man Show" with art consider "The Man Show" art, defend softcore anime porn dating sims and generally drop MRA logic bombs like its going out of style
 
itt: people compare "The Man Show" with art...

The Man Show is artistic in the same sense as electronic music is artistic, or an advertisement is artistic, and so on. It is all the fruits of someone's talent, writing ability, imagination, and all the things that make up art. I can't believe you are so naive as to actually stand behind that statement.

Better you reply with some critiques that legitimately contribute to the discussion.

@Burgess_101
-- It's an old Comedy Central show from around 2001 hosted by Adam Carolla and Jimmy Kimmel. I raised it here because it's often used as a whipping boy by feminist writers, and I largely take issue with their analyses of the show.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Romance novels objectify men into mindless stereotypes that only serve to appeal sexually to women, and are far dirtier than any porno you will watch.

Could it just be, that both genders love sex, and products appeal to them by...sexual objectification?

Sex just sells etc.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
Also laughable, considering he only played the Demo and knows for himself how bad it really is.

EDIT: To be fair, I think you can not have played the game - and still take issue with boxart/ campaign ads. I was more so talking about how he said the actual content doesn't matter. I disagree, the content is all that matters.

Exactly. It's a video game.

Romance novels objectify men into mindless stereotypes that only serve to appeal sexually to women, and are far dirtier than any porno you will watch.

Could it just be, that both genders love sex, and products appeal to them by...sexual objectification?

IMPOSSIBLE!

Really though, part of understanding the issue isn't just understanding what a game contains, but the business that surrounds it. What is the market? Who buys which kinds of games, and at what age? These things are all important factors that seem to be left out quite often.
 
Romance novels objectify men into mindless stereotypes that only serve to appeal sexually to women, and are far dirtier than any porno you will watch.

Could it just be, that both genders love sex, and products appeal to them by...sexual objectification?

That doesn't make any sense, only women can be objectified. Everyone knows this! Please try to reply seriously in the future.
 

Margalis

Banned
Your criticisms of the show are largely incorrect, and are, again, based on you having watched probably no more than one or two episodes. I can't know that for sure, but I'm going to assume that.
...
Your unstated major premise is clear from your tone: you find it in poor taste; perhaps you even find it offensive. That in itself is irrelevant.
...
While I'm not interested in putting words in your mouth...

A ha ha ha.
 
The Man Show is artistic in the same sense as electronic music is artistic, or an advertisement is artistic, and so on. It is all the fruits of someone's talent, writing ability, imagination, and all the things that make up art. I can't believe you are so naive as to actually stand behind that statement.

Fixed, thanks
 
The marketing and the tone/attitude it portrays is what I have a problem with. I never discredited the story and content of the game because I only played the demo because the garbage marketing left me with no desire to play more.
Well, in the post that I responded to, you wrote: "It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine," which I read as a criticism of the game's content, beyond the packaging. The marketing/box art was terrible, no doubt about that. I was also very put off and had no interest in the game as well, but a few particular reviews encouraged me to look past the cover and give it a try in the end.
 
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