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[Chairmanchuck]

What is a damsel in a refrigator?


And can anyone explain to me why Ico could be the most sexist Game for anyone? I mean, yeah. You rescue her. But there is a reason, why she is so weak and the end of the Game clearly shows that player was kinda "deceived" by her.

Spoiler

She carries him the whole way to the boat, rescuing him, while the castle collapses.

And her weakness comes from being imprisoned for some years in the same cell.

In contrast her mother, also a female, is a strong powerful woman. But could it be bad, that she is, because she is the villain?

Is it just because of what Ueda said once?

 

[MG310]

"Damsels in Refrigerators" is part of the whole "Women in Refrigerators" thing from comic books - named after Green Lantern's girlfriend who was chopped up and stuffed in the fridge by one of his villains. Basically female characters that only exist for horrible things to happen to them as a motivating force for a male character. See: the random woman about 1/3 of the way through Castlevania: Lords of Shadow.

 

[K.Sabot]

Excited to see this, hope it's better than the bayonetta thing she did.

And by that I mean I hope it's good.

 

[akidnamededdy]

"Damsels in Refrigerators" is part of the whole "Women in Refrigerators" thing from comic books - named after Green Lantern's girlfriend who was chopped up and stuffed in the fridge by one of his villains. Basically female characters that only exist for horrible things to happen to them as a motivating force for a male character. See: the random woman about 1/3 of the way through Castlevania: Lords of Shadow.

This is funny to me because in No More Heroes 2, Travis's whole motivation is revenge for the death of the video store clerk, who

Spoiler

he later admits he didn't really know all that well or care about that much anyway.

Not that that's supposed to be some kind of commentary or retort to the whole "damsel in refrigerators" thing. Or maybe it is, but I'm not in the state of mind to do it right now.

 

[Grand Funk Carwash]

Why are tropes considered bad? They're just story telling devices that don't deserve any thought. They fill in the gaps so you can focus on the parts of the story you want to tell.

 

[bigboss370]

Why are tropes considered bad? They're just story telling devices that don't deserve any thought. They fill in the gaps so you can focus on the parts of the story you want to tell.

iunno >_>

i never even thought of the damsel in refrigerator thing before, to me it was never about a female dying for the sake of the main character, but just someone important to the main character dying. happens alot with mentor type figures that main characters have as well. so i never saw it as devaluing women...

 

[akidnamededdy]

iunno >_>

i never even thought of the damsel in refrigerator thing before, to me it was never about a female dying for the sake of the main character, but just someone important to the main character dying. happens alot with mentor type figures that main characters have as well. so i never saw it as devaluing women...

My problem with these cut-and-dry categorizations is

Spoiler

Mother 3.

I suppose technically Hinawa would be classified as a "damsel in the refrigerator," which, to me, would almost be disrespectful to that game's story.

I dunno. It's like someone on here keeps saying--I think there's a bit of a problem with this stuff in gaming (or in media in general), but I don't think Anita's the person to do something about it. I guess we'll see whenever she puts a video up.

 

[Carcetti]

any reason why people couldnt use the $158,000 to fund some games that DO appeal to them instead of a dramatic reading of tvtropes?

Newsflash: people can use their money to wipe their arses if they so wish. Apparently they can even use them on video projects that they like.

Frankly, the necessity of the Sarkeesian video project is highlighted every time she's brought up on GAF. The amount of outrade and teeth gnashing it produces even before the first video is out amazing. Though some of it is probably from the typical geek reaction of defending their loved hobbies from evil attacks of the outsiders.

 

[scar tissue]

Great lesson. Know we know that the next time a woman in a game is in distress we shouldn't save her. Because that would be sexist.

I what world is Dead Rising a damsel in distress game? The escort missions encompass both women and men.
What about Gears 2, I honestly can't remember a damsel in distress there? The people you (try) rescuing are

Spoiler

Thai, Carmine 2 and Baird.

I'm amazed people gave her this amount of money for something other people would make for free (we all know it's going to be one of those long youtube rants about stuff that's partially true but exaggerated beyond belief)

 

[akidnamededdy]

I what world is Dead Rising a damsel in distress game? The escort missions encompass both women and men.
What about Gears 2, I honestly can't remember a damsel in distress there? The people you (try) rescuing are

Spoiler

Thai, Carmine 2 and Baird.

I'm amazed people gave her this amount of money for something other people would make for free (we all know it's going to be one of those long youtube rants about stuff that's partially true but exaggerated beyond belief)

Pssssssst about Gears 2....

Spoiler

Dom's wife.

And agreed on your point about people doing this for free normally.

 

[sleepykyo]

I what world is Dead Rising a damsel in distress game? The escort missions encompass both women and men.
What about Gears 2, I honestly can't remember a damsel in distress there? The people you (try) rescuing are

Spoiler

Thai, Carmine 2 and Baird.

I'm amazed people gave her this amount of money for something other people would make for free (we all know it's going to be one of those long youtube rants about stuff that's partially true but exaggerated beyond belief)

It isn't a damsels in distress game. It is a game that has damsels in distress.

 

[Grand Funk Carwash]

Newsflash: people can use their money to wipe their arses if they so wish. Apparently they can even use them on video projects that they like.

Frankly, the necessity of the Sarkeesian video project is highlighted every time she's brought up on GAF. The amount of outrade and teeth gnashing it produces even before the first video is out amazing. Though some of it is probably from the typical geek reaction of defending their loved hobbies from evil attacks of the outsiders.

Idea 1. Games Promote Violence: WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
Idea 2. Games Promote Sexism: BRAVO ANITA! YOU TELL 'EM! DAMN THOSE SEXY NERDS!

 

[Shosai]

Idea 1. Games Promote Violence: WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
Idea 2. Games Promote Sexism: BRAVO ANITA! YOU TELL 'EM! DAMN THOSE SEXY NERDS!

This is a perfectly accurate summary of the eight million forum posts have been written on both subjects bravo A++ would subscribe to your channel

 

[akidnamededdy]

Great lesson. Know we know that the next time a woman in a game is in distress we shouldn't save her. Because that would be sexist.

Looking at that board, I have to admit I am curious what she has to say about FemShep over there on the right, since the only real difference between her and ManShep is which characters you can bump uglies with.

 

[Lizardus]

Why isn't someone coming forward on behalf of all the black people dying first in horror movies?

 

[Funchameleon]

Looking at that board, I have to admit I am curious what she has to say about FemShep over there on the right, since the only real difference between her and ManShep is which characters you can bump uglies with.

Unrelated to video 1 but I hope she touches on the facebook event where they let you vote for your dream FemShep for the cover.

 

[Shosai]

Looking at that board, I have to admit I am curious what she has to say about FemShep over there on the right, since the only real difference between her and ManShep is which characters you can bump uglies with.

I think FemShep had more lesbian options than maleShep had gay options. That's the only thing I remember. Make what you will from that.

 

[Carcetti]

Idea 1. Games Promote Violence: WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
Idea 2. Games Promote Sexism: BRAVO ANITA! YOU TELL 'EM! DAMN THOSE SEXY NERDS!

Games, especially those that cater to the lowest common denominator, tend to be sexist and violent. I have no problem seeing both of those problems. It's problematic though that I happen to enjoy violent games, that's for sure.

On the other hand, it's harder to quantify what kind of effects those games will have. Will Little Jimmy shoot up the mall after playing Call of Duty? Probably not. Will Little Jimmy grow up the be a bit more dickish guy after playing a ton of games with T&A galore and learning how to teabag n¤%#¤%r f"#%"#%ts on Live? Possibly.

Also, anyone with eyes can see that games are violent as fuck. As proven by Sarkeesian, a lot of people seem to think there is no actual sexism in games at all or that it's no problem at all even if it exists.

And what comes to geek social fallacies and the bloody defense of our hobbies, I'm well familiar with all that because I happen come from that culture. The problem is that when I grew older, I started seeing problems that are not going away. EDIT: And started to become more worried about those problems when I had kids who are going to become gamers one day (I hope).

 

[akidnamededdy]

Games, especially those that cater to the lowest common denominator, tend to be sexist and violent. I have no problem seeing both of those problems. It's problematic though that I happen to enjoy violent games, that's for sure.

On the other hand, it's harder to quantify what kind of effects those games will have. Will Little Jimmy shoot up the mall after playing Call of Duty? Probably not. Will Little Jimmy grow up the be a bit more dickish guy after playing a ton of games with T&A galore and learning how to teabag n¤%#¤%r f"#%"#%ts on Live? Possibly.

Also, anyone with eyes can see that games are violent as fuck. As proven by Sarkeesian, a lot of people seem to think there is no actual sexism in games at all or that it's no problem at all even if it exists.

And what comes to geek social fallacies and the bloody defense of our hobbies, I'm well familiar with all that because I happen come from that culture. The problem is that when I grew older, I started seeing problems that are not going away. EDIT: And started to become more worried about those problems when I had kids who are going to become gamers one day (I hope).

The question here is: why is the violence answer "probably not" and the dickish answer a "possibly" for you? If media consumption does indeed have a measurable effect on one of those, why not the other?

I mean, you said it yourself--you grew up and realized there was maybe something off about the whole thing. Why should you assume that other children won't do the same?

 

[UrbanRats]

Games, especially those that cater to the lowest common denominator, tend to be sexist and violent. I have no problem seeing both of those problems. It's problematic though that I happen to enjoy violent games, that's for sure.

It's not problematic, unless you go to incredibly morbid lenghts, i guess.
Most people on the planet enjoy violent movies, be it Terminator or Friday 13th; videogames are no different.
--

That said, the only problem i have with these videos, it's how fucking polluted videogame websites/boards will become with these discussions, because people get their panties twisted incredibly quickly, when it comes to this subject matter.

There are thousands of videos just on youtube every second, no one is forcing you to see these Tropes vs Women ones, stop giving them attention if you really think they're worthless.
Seeing hundreds of people spend their days trying to either prove how these videos are shit or defend them, is mindboggling to me, if you don't care about them, ignore the fucking thing.

And yes, i entered this thread just to say this. Peace.

 

[KissVibes]

Great lesson. Know we know that the next time a woman in a game is in distress we shouldn't save her. Because that would be sexist.

Wait, how is Maria in Gears of War 2 a disposable damsel? I mean shit, her disappearance was a central part of the Gears of War 1 storyline and more importantly, her capture and death was something that plagued Dom all the way into the third game. Unless she's going to say Anya was the disposable damsel...in which case doesn't really make sense either as she didn't need to be rescued and in the third game was portrayed just as capable and "bad ass" as the rest of the crew.

 

[Carcetti]

The question here is: why is the violence answer "probably not" and the dickish answer a "possibly" for you? If media consumption does indeed have a measurable effect on one of those, why not the other?

I mean, you said it yourself--you grew up and realized there was maybe something off about the whole thing. Why should you assume that other children won't do the same?

I'd rather not assume. Education to give kids capacity for media criticism is the better answer. That also includes digging at these issues which is what Sarkeesian happens to be doing which is why I like this project even if I'm not a huge fan of her videos myself.

I'd also give more focus on the sexism just because of this: games wear their violence proudly and a lot more attention in the past has been given to it. Sexist stuff on the other hand tends to be more 'insidious' in the sense that's it's always in the subtext. Most people don't make a game featuring 'visceral, exciting sexism' on the cover blurb.

It's not problematic, unless you go to incredibly morbid lenghts, i guess.
Most people on the planet enjoy violent movies, be it Terminator or Friday 13th; videogames are no different.

I meant it's problematic in the sense that it's harder for me to discuss 'objectively' about the relative risks game violence and video game sexism if I'm happily slicing people into sausage in Hotline Miami.

 

[akidnamededdy]

I'd rather not assume. Education to give kids capacity for media criticism is the better answer. That also includes digging at these issues which is what Sarkeesian happens to be doing which is why I like this project even if I'm not a huge fan of her videos myself.

I'd also give more focus on the sexism just because of this: games wear their violence proudly and a lot more attention in the past has been given to it. Sexist stuff on the other hand tends to be more 'insidious' in the sense that's it's always in the subtext. Most people don't make a game featuring 'visceral, exciting sexism' on the cover blurb.

Fair point. We definitely need some kind of standardized media consumption education, in the US anyway (do other countries have anything like that?)

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

I still think her issue was blown out of proportion and got more attention than she needed, I am aware of that her intentions are good but I don't think she will change anything going in the industry.

 

[thebaroness]

iunno >_>

i never even thought of the damsel in refrigerator thing before, to me it was never about a female dying for the sake of the main character, but just someone important to the main character dying. happens alot with mentor type figures that main characters have as well. so i never saw it as devaluing women...

You might not have noticed a problem with it, but it's there. It definitely was something that bothered me a lot when I was younger. Girls were always the ones getting kidnapped or killed, which is why I latched onto Samus so much.

It was a bigger deal a decade ago, this have gotten somewhat more progressive these days. That is why Gail Simone started the site Women in Fridges. It was focused on comic books, but it was still a problem in all kinds of media. Try to put yourself in the place of liking the geeky media you like, but never seeing yourself properly represented. If you always saw your gender as being weak and dying, never doing anything cool or heroic; it would get annoying after a while. It's true that the older mentor dying is another common thread, but a girlfriend/sister/mother being violently attacked or kidnapped is far more common. It's a lazy and damaging way of creating tragedy for your main character.

Tropes are a sign of bad writing and they're promote undesirable gender separation. Which is why I don't think this video series is a bad thing. But again, I think Anita is not the person to do it, and her research is fundamentally skewed and flawed.

 

[thebaroness]

Why isn't someone coming forward on behalf of all the black people dying first in horror movies?

Oh believe me, this is another trope that I feel very strongly about. Racism is just as big, if not bigger, problem than sexism. I can whine all day about women being portrayed as weak but black people are treated even worse by the media. They're all either thugs, or dead. It's quite disgusting.

 

[Carcetti]

Fair point. We definitely need some kind of standardized media consumption education, in the US anyway (do other countries have anything like that?)

That's also what I'd like to know. In these days, a class featuring media consumption skills would be a useful way more often than a class of 'how to carve wood into something'.

 

[Lich_King]

Fair point. We definitely need some kind of standardized media consumption education, in the US anyway (do other countries have anything like that?)

In other countries we have a thing called thinking. People would usually consume some media and then think for themselves (process voices in the head) and come up with some ideas. (does US have anything like that or you need to be told by government about everything that can possibly happen beforehand?)

My parents certainly had standardized media consumption education back in Soviet Union though. This is why they grew up watching illegal copies of banned for being degenerate western movies.

 

[Roman]

You might not have noticed a problem with it, but it's there. It definitely was something that bothered me a lot when I was younger. Girls were always the ones getting kidnapped or killed, which is why I latched onto Samus so much.

I apologize for being off topic but surely you can't accuse DC Comics for a lack of trying.
Among their peers I can't think of anyone else who strove to feature strong women. I'm reading a lot of comics from that time period and Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Doctor Fate, Talia Al Ghul, Lady Shiva, Death of the Endless, Amanda Waller, and Oracle are only few among the ones I wouldn't describe as 'damsels' by any stretch.

Marvel was in their Liefeld/McFarlane period so there's way less I can think of - She-Hulk, Storm, Rogue, Binary and Psylocke are decent examples.

 

[Pezking]

We definitely need some kind of standardized media consumption education, in the US anyway (do other countries have anything like that?)

I don't like the assumption that most people are unable to draw the right conclusions from their own media consumption without some education regarding that matter. Seems very self-righteous to me.

I'm all for more variety when it comes to the depiction of anyone or anything, but I don't see why already established tropes need to be condemned at the same time.

 

[Burgess_101]

I don't like the assumption that most people are unable to draw the right conclusions from their own media consumption without some education regarding that matter. Seems very self-righteous to me.

I'm all for more variety when it comes to the depiction of anyone or anything, but I don't see why already established tropes need to be condemned at the same time.

I've said it throughout the thread give the average person their credit, they know not to draw their morals from media.

Also I couldn't sleep.

 

[thesolidshark]

I have no desire to weigh in on this subject, but it sure is fun to observe.

I'm about to weigh in on this anyway, but save me a seat in the observe section.

I've been keeping up with the Tropes threads, and I'll say I support what (I think) Anita wants, which is what I want too: more games with more varied (repsectable?) females and less stereotypical characteristics to them. I'd go further in asking for more non-humans, aliens, animals to play, basically more variety. If she just wants to comment on things, then that's fine too. I just wish more people trying to do what she's doing was in the spotlight, because after watching several videos on this, she really isn't someone I'd want to give that much attention to. Despite it being taken down, the Bayonetta vid she made especially gave me lots of pause.

I know that she asked for around $6,000 originally, and got $152,000 more than she asked for, I'm guessing just as a response to what happened to her, and those looking for changes in gaming. If a lot of her supporters were backing her as a representative voice for where women stand inside games, and where they should stand, that's a lot of eggs to be putting in a questionable basket. Even if it's just the Kickstarter structure that allowed so much money to go her way.

Personally, since she's focusing in on gaming, the gamer in me wishes that she would play some of these games she'd talk about but might not have an interest in playing. Though they'd be a small number of sales by comparison, some people could be swayed into buying/trying some games based off of what she says about it, and even if it's not her focus, I'd like to hear something like this:

"while Bayonetta as a character in design and some actions I found questionable, I can at least say the design is unique, and indeed fun in a lot of ways. Had the developers centered the gameplay around a more sensible, relatable woman (as relatable as you could get out of that world), I'd label this experience as a big positive."

Little things like (if this was really true) Anita not even being aware that Bayonetta's clothing was essentially her hair was off-putting.

It might've been Anita herself, or someone from Feminist Frequency who said she had no plans to play the new Tomb Raider either. As much as people aren't looking forward to that game, I would've been interested in her opinions on that one, even if horrible.


This is a big "we'll see" project to me. My hopes aren't high, but I'm willing to be surprised. My bias side will write her off completely if she writes off some women in games I do think are awesome and/or positive.


P.S. Since this is pretty much current news, I wonder if they'll be any comment from her on possible expectations in the future for military shooters now that women are closer than they've ever been to having active roles in combat.

 

[sTeLioSco]

any reason why people couldnt use the $158,000 to fund some games that DO appeal to them instead of a dramatic reading of tvtropes?

why do you have a problem with how people spend their money?!?!

it really seems that anyone that wants women as slaves has a bit of fascism in him.

 

[thebaroness]

I apologize for being off topic but surely you can't accuse DC Comics for a lack of trying.
Among their peers I can't think of anyone else who strove to feature strong women. I'm reading a lot of comics from that time period and Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Doctor Fate, Talia Al Ghul, Lady Shiva, Death of the Endless, Amanda Waller, and Oracle are only few among the ones I wouldn't describe as 'damsels' by any stretch.

Marvel was in their Liefeld/McFarlane period so there's way less I can think of - She-Hulk, Storm, Rogue, Binary and Psylocke are decent examples.

When did I accuse DC of anything? Never once did I ever single out Dc comics. I just linked to Gail's site from 1999. I've always been more of a DC girl than Marvel. Power Girl is my favorite super heroine, followed by Hawk Girl and Diana. I only brought up the site because she was one of the first ladies to speak up about in in geek media and gather some industry attention.


Also, the government regulation everything is a bad, bad idea. Shame on whoever suggested it.

 

[Carcetti]

I don't like the assumption that most people are unable to draw the right conclusions from their own media consumption without some education regarding that matter. Seems very self-righteous to me.

I'm all for more variety when it comes to the depiction of anyone or anything, but I don't see why already established tropes need to be condemned at the same time.

Only on GAF can teaching young kids critical thinking and not swallowing everything they see in the tv be seen as a bad thing.

Media criticism as a whole is looking at how advertisement, news and entertainment are made and how they can affect us. When we are bombarded by all of them 24/7, how can it be bad to prepare kids for that in early age?

Also, the government regulation everything is a bad, bad idea. Shame on whoever suggested it.

... yeah.. except nobody on this page at least suggest any 'government regulation on everything'. Thanks Obama!

What was suggested is that media criticism could be added to school curriculums. What fascism!

 

[Roman]

When did I accuse DC of anything? Never once did I ever single out Dc comics. I just linked to Gail's site from 1999. I've always been more of a DC girl than Marvel. Power Girl is my favorite super heroine, followed by Hawk Girl and Diana. I only brought up the site because she was one of the first ladies to speak up about in in geek media and gather some industry attention.

Well no, you didn't mention DC but the Kyle Rayner example is theirs, also I quoted the part where you wrote 'girls were always [...]'

It might have been an extrapolated figure of speech, and my point was in regards to DC I don't think they weren't trying.

If you're a fan of Power Girl I figure you're not happy with current Worlds' Finest...

 

[Pezking]

Only on GAF can teaching young kids critical thinking and not swallowing everything they see in the tv be seen as a bad thing.

Media criticism as a whole is looking at how advertisement, news and entertainment are made and how they can affect us. When we are bombarded by all of them 24/7, how can it be bad to prepare kids for that in early age?

I never said that teaching anything would be a bad thing.

I just don't see the necessity, since I'm very confident that most people are very able to handle their own media consumption perfectly fine without any sort of additional education.

By the way, I'm German and have been taught about sexual key stimuli in advertising over 20 years ago in biology lessons at school. And I think that's exactly the right place for education regarding those matters. Media criticism as a school subject would always be in great danger of being a platform for personal views and opinions of the teacher, and that shouldn't happen at school.

 

[Carcetti]

I never said that teaching anything would be a bad thing.

I just don't see the necessity, since I'm very confident that most people are very able to handle their own media consumption perfectly fine without any sort of additional education.

By the way, I'm German and have been taught about sexual key stimuli in advertising over 20 years ago in biology lessons at school. And I think that's exactly the right place for education regarding those matters. Media criticism as a school subject would always be in great danger of being a platform for personal views and opinions of the teacher, and that shouldn't happen at school.

Ah, I hear you. I think the difference here is that in this issue you're an optimist and I'm a pessimist. Fox News is one of the best modern examples of how pure propaganda reaches and actually seems to affect a huge number of people.

I agree that media criticism could be inserted into other school subjects though, like history, biology, geography, own language etc. I just think it would be better if it was guaranteed to be there instead of left to the teachers' discretion.

 

[Shinta]

Haha, some countries are worse than others, but the "others" still have a good dozen clones of "King of Queens" with fat dumb funny guy and his stunningly attractive wife.

I'd love to see your research akidnamededdy.

I think you've got this one backwards. The sitcoms with smart, attractive women and dumb, fat guys are usually catering to women. Lots of guys list these kinds of shows as examples of shows that push stereotypes that men are dumb. In most of these shows even the kids are portrayed as smarter than the dad. Everybody Loves Raymond is another classic example.

This is supposed to be anti-women, because the women come out looking better and smarter?

 

[Kelas]

I'm surprised Dante's Inferno is on her list at all. Beatrice is a character inherited from the fiction on which it is based, and her story goes far deeper than "damsel", and Dante's story goes far deeper than "guy who saves the girl". Though it could be argued that the game somewhat ignores that basis and tells it's own (worse) story, or doesn't provide the proper context for it, I think it's a bit of a stretch to boil it down to that trope without at least going a little bit beyond the surface.

The inclusion of Zelda is also intriguing. I'm not the biggest LoZ story buff, so she should do her own reading about it, but there is again a lot more to her story than simply "damsel in distress". There are reasonable story purposes for who she is, what she does, and what happens to her in most Zelda games I've played. By all accounts, her gender is never the reason she is captured and it is never the reason that she must be saved; rather, it's who she is (odd that this seems to be something those who cry foul about sexism don't see first - they don't see the person, they see the gender). The fact that she is often portrayed as incapable of saving herself is not because she's a woman, it's because she's a royal child (read: not a monster killing hero child) who is captured by an incredibly powerful man/monster hybrid. I would find the games equally plausible if you swapped the genders of Zelda and Link, or just swapped one of them. I suppose an argument there is "well, that's the point, why don't they swap the genders?". I'd suggest that this was a design decision that was made for the story by people who had the creative freedom to make whatever decisions they wanted to make for their own game. I don't think it's fair to criticise a game for not being the game that puts people in the roles you want to see them in - or at least, it's not fair to call it sexist.

 

[NotLiquid]

Great lesson. Know we know that the next time a woman in a game is in distress we shouldn't save her. Because that would be sexist.

Shadows of the Damned is a really odd one for her to break down considering Paula serves some Silent Hill 2-ish purposes; i.e dying a ton of times to torture and screw with Garcia's mind. It's certainly not a subtle game but I think that's a neat story aspect that they went with.

This isn't even accounting the end-boss and the end-game twist.

 

[akidnamededdy]

In other countries we have a thing called thinking. People would usually consume some media and then think for themselves (process voices in the head) and come up with some ideas. (does US have anything like that or you need to be told by government about everything that can possibly happen beforehand?)

My parents certainly had standardized media consumption education back in Soviet Union though. This is why they grew up watching illegal copies of banned for being degenerate western movies.

Yeeeeahhhh that's not really what I was talking about, but thanks for weighing in.

Also, the government regulation everything is a bad, bad idea. Shame on whoever suggested it.

Since when does education = regulation?

Only on GAF can teaching young kids critical thinking and not swallowing everything they see in the tv be seen as a bad thing.

Media criticism as a whole is looking at how advertisement, news and entertainment are made and how they can affect us. When we are bombarded by all of them 24/7, how can it be bad to prepare kids for that in early age?

Carcetti knows what's up.

 

[Funchameleon]

I think you've got this one backwards. The sitcoms with smart, attractive women and dumb, fat guys are usually catering to women. Lots of guys list these kinds of shows as examples of shows that push stereotypes that men are dumb. In most of these shows even the kids are portrayed as smarter than the dad. Everybody Loves Raymond is another classic example.

Look at the context I said this in. Women on television are mostly regulated to eye candy and the ridiculous pairing of Kevin James and Leah Remini is a famous symptom of the problem. KoQ's target demo is pretty gender-neutral otherwise.

 

[Lizardfolk]

High quality primetime and drama tv like HBO or BBC tends to avoid this.

Look at Lily in AMC's Hell on Wheels she's very "feminime" without being sexist exactly.

 

[Tain]

I'm not particularly interested in the results of this (the premise is pretty boring), but I think it's super weird that so many people take issue with her getting 150k for this.

 

[7Th]

I'm not particularly interested in the results of this (the premise is pretty boring), but I think it's super weird that so many people take issue with her getting 150k for this.

People taking issue with her is what made her get 150k, even. If she had gone ignored by the hivemind haters she would have gotten the 5~10k she originally asked for and that would have been the end of it.

 

[EagleBurnn]

any reason why people couldnt use the $158,000 to fund some games that DO appeal to them instead of a dramatic reading of tvtropes?

but then she wouldn't have it??

Spoiler

I don't care about this, but she could have donated the money she didn't need, just sayin

 

[Platy]

Why is Super Meat Boy on the "Ironic/Retro Damsel"?

Didnt McMillan even say, that the Meatgirl is just the Skin of Super Meatboy and he is just rescuing her, not because she is a damsel in distress, but because he needs her for him to be complete?

She is still a girl who gets kidnapped since the begining of the game.
It is not called "love interest in distress" =P
Also the game uses ths (see retro cutscenes) because lots of games used before

Why are tropes considered bad? They're just story telling devices that don't deserve any thought. They fill in the gaps so you can focus on the parts of the story you want to tell.

Tropes are NOT considered bad.
Overused tropes are bad, specialy overused tropes that by their overusing denotes a way of thinking by the media for a certain group of people

The inclusion of Zelda is also intriguing. I'm not the biggest LoZ story buff, so she should do her own reading about it, but there is again a lot more to her story than simply "damsel in distress". There are reasonable story purposes for who she is, what she does, and what happens to her in most Zelda games I've played. By all accounts, her gender is never the reason she is captured and it is never the reason that she must be saved; rather, it's who she is (odd that this seems to be something those who cry foul about sexism don't see first - they don't see the person, they see the gender). The fact that she is often portrayed as incapable of saving herself is not because she's a woman, it's because she's a royal child (read: not a monster killing hero child) who is captured by an incredibly powerful man/monster hybrid. I would find the games equally plausible if you swapped the genders of Zelda and Link, or just swapped one of them. I suppose an argument there is "well, that's the point, why don't they swap the genders?". I'd suggest that this was a design decision that was made for the story by people who had the creative freedom to make whatever decisions they wanted to make for their own game. I don't think it's fair to criticise a game for not being the game that puts people in the roles you want to see them in - or at least, it's not fair to call it sexist.

Again, she is not criticising specific games, she is criticising the fact that praticaly THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION

Also, Zelda is captured even on Ocarina of Time, where she CAN defend herself

 

[Kelas]

Again, she is not criticising specific games, she is criticising the fact that praticaly THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION

I'm responding to her inclusion of Zelda on her whiteboard list. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but she doesn't seem to have gone into any real detail about how she's going to be presenting her arguments. I don't see her explaining the specifics of what her criticism will entail on her Kickstarter page/video, so I'm curious as to where she mentioned that she won't be criticising specific games, as you say? I'd find it a bit counter productive to list a load of specific games if she's not going to be criticising them.

Also, Zelda is captured even on Ocarina of Time, where she CAN defend herself

But she couldn't in that instance (as we could assume any character being caught in a magical crystal couldn't), because otherwise she wouldn't have been caught and the story wouldn't play out the way the writer's wanted it to? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Her being caught in the manner that she's caught doesn't really undercut her strength or worth as a character in the game at all. It's certainly a plot device, but not really a gender issue.

 

[Jharp]

Did anyone else get a hearty chuckle out of Gears of War 2 under 'Disposable Damsel'?

I mean, she's totally right. That scene was just so laughably bad, seeing Sarkeesian sincerely label it that way is funny to me. I think it's pretty clear that that wasn't Epic's intention, but Epic failed so stupendously at getting the whole Maria story across, that they not only made a sad scene genuinely funny, but they got their testosterone-ridden series lumped in with sexist games for their piss poor treatment of her. I'm certain this treatment is born more out of their horrendous use of roid-apes as heroes, but it makes for some unintentional hilarity when they try throwing an otherwise normal lady into the mix.