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[Mononoke]

EDIT:

Don't want to derail the thread.

 

[thebaroness]

My god, this thread has derailed.

I'm going to start posting this image in all the threads that get derailed into cyclical feminist arguments.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Catherine had marketing?

 

[Margalis]

ZanzibarBreeze is an idiot and his posts are garbage.*

* = Satire

Seriously though, his posts are super dumb. *

* = Still satire

This post can objectively be called not rude, because it satirizes rude posts!

Also I know what "objective" means.*

* = Now this is definitely satire.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Well, in the post that I responded to, you wrote: "It deals with sex and relationships in a very strong sophisticated manner and all it has to say is that cheating is bad? It's a shallow message underneath the real product, which is Catherine," which I read as a criticism of the game's content, beyond the packaging. The marketing/box art was terrible, no doubt about that. I was also very put off and had no interest in the game as well, but a few particular reviews encouraged me to look past the cover and give it a try in the end.

Sounds just like someone else this thread discussed.

heh

 

[Burgess_101]

Its 6am and I have college in 3 hours, I should go to bed. This thread has been interesting to say the least

 

[ZanzibarBreeze]

I wonder how some of you feel about Models that do advertising on billboards etc. Are they like the house n**** of the feminist movement? The sell outs, with no sense of shame? Or is it no longer objectification, because they don't have an issue with it? Make money off it...

A response that is common (and that has even been expressed here) is that they don't understand they're being exploited; a variation being that they just don't know any better. (A similar argument is deployed in the case of oppressed women in the Middle East that stand by their religion.) Those lines of argument make me uncomfortable because the basic premise is that person A is too stupid to understand what person B is doing to them.

ZanzibarBreeze is an idiot and his posts are garbage.*

* = Satire

Seriously though, his posts are super dumb. *

* = Still satire

This post can objectively be called not rude, because it satirizes rude posts!

Also I know what "objective" means.*

* = Now this is definitely satire.

Have I angered you?

I'm just trying to have a discussion here. I think I've raised some good points. I'm afraid your petulance might betray the fact that you have no valid response toward mine. Either that, or you can't be bothered. But keep in mind that I'm not ridiculing you, and I'm not interested in doing such a thing. That's okay though -- you do what suits you.

 

[Mononoke]

A response that is common (and that has even been expressed here) is that they don't understand they're being exploited; a variation being that they just don't know any better. (A similar argument is deployed in the case of oppressed women in the Middle East that stand by their religion.) Those lines of argument make me uncomfortable because the basic premise is that person A is too stupid to understand what person B is doing to them.

There must be a lot of in-fighting within the feminist movement.

 

[Nert]

My god, this thread has derailed.

Heh, derailed from what? People (including myself, to be fair) stopped talking about the actual update and the Tumblr page detailed in the original post after the first page or two

I'm guessing that these topics continue to get locked because they get so heated even when there's really not anything new to talk about.

 

[Funchameleon]

All of that might work if models were doing anything inherently wrong and it wasn't the male dominated fashion/cosmetics/advertising industry skewing body image that was the damaging part. Nobody blames models for doing the job.

Not all women are feminists by a long shot, either.

 

[Burgess_101]

All of that might work if models were doing anything inherently wrong and it wasn't the male dominated fashion/cosmetics/advertising industry skewing body image that was the damaging part. Nobody blames models for doing the job.

Not all women are feminists by a long shot, either.

I was going to bed but then I read this... Sheesh. Honestly women have minds of their own and if they honestly feel like they have to look a certain way then its a self confidence problem.

 

[jgminto]

Hopefully it'll be good. But I feel that a lot of the focus is going to be on sexism itself, or at least the discussions around the videos. I'm not a fan of sexism or any form of discrimination, but it's just not that interesting to discuss. It's such a black and white topic. I hope the focus is more on how we write these characters and methods of achieving "better written" characters.

 

[Kazerei]

I was going to bed but then I read this... Sheesh. Honestly women have minds of their own and if they honestly feel like they have to look a certain way then its a self confidence problem.

I'd say it's more of a cultural problem that men and women feel pressured to look or act a certain way.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

The thread I made 1-2 days ago about analyzing this situation and wondering where the videos are, was locked almost immediately. It didn't even devolve into arguing or anything of the sort. Let's see how this one does.

And yeah, if the videos are her sitting in front of a screen and talking, the people who donated got had. Plain and simple. Also, Damsel in Distress? Really? I was hoping for something more multi-faceted or complex.

 

[Castle Doctrine]

If "having babies" is what you mean by "sexual value", then maybe you should've used a different term. Women's sexuality isn't explored because they have babies, it's because that's what people do when they're after straight men's money.

Anita is trying to show that games have characteristics that can appeal to women as well as men, but when you're playing Bayonetta (just an example) and the camera gives a ridiculous close-up to her crotch, the subconscious message sent to a straight woman (and as you know, the vast majority of women are straight) playing it is: "This game is not made with you in mind".

Yes, sex does sell. To everyone, not just straight men, but they're the majority of consumers in the video game industry so that is the reason they're targeted (depending on the game). An action game like Bayonetta or Devil May Cry has historically attracted more male players than females, in my observation. I doubt creator Hideki Kamiya had any of this in mind when he initially began thinking about Bayonetta. He probably likes sexy women and wanted to create a sexy female lead, it's what inspired him, and female character designer Mari Shimazaki probably created a female she idealized, a "female power fantasy" for her. Guys are usually made fun of for that.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with restricting your audience, nothing wrong with male sexuality or the male gaze (female gaze is also recently getting popular in YA books and Twilight movies). But in some medias, like games and comic books, the male gaze is so disproportionate compared to everything else that it alienates a considerable potential audience (girls and women) from their markets.

I've never been a fan of the term "male gaze". It sounds creepy and spooky like men have some sort of psychosexual weirdness going on. Men like to look at women, in every form, whether in real life, pictures, artwork, pixels, and even nice boobs on a fox in Sly Cooper. No hyperbole, female sexuality is the most powerful social force on Earth, and probably the universe lol. Sometimes men look too much, I agree, but women enjoy the male gaze depending on who is doing the gazing.

I don't think it's the male gaze or that video games are created with men in mind, I think women and girls have historically been less interested in video games than men regardless of the subject matter of the game. Whether it be Pac-Man, Bayonetta, Gran Turismo, and even a game like Uncharted. I don't believe video gaming is a "boys club" loaded with sexists guarding the fence keeping women out.

It's not hard for Anita to mention the "biological facts", if that's what you're interested in. But in these days, with such a demand for strong women, that argument is just a poor defense of the status quo.

In the end i would agree, I would like to see more interesting female characters in games. And this discussion is worthy, and the Damsel in Distress trope is overused. But my premise about female sexual power and general physcial weakness dilutes the narrative that the Damsel in Distress trope originated from sexism.

One caveat though, it's annoying that in entertainment, "female empowerment" often comes at the expense of men. Television commercials are a prime example. I also saw this move called Haywire with former MMA fighter Gina Carano, and she beats the shit out of a bunch of men throughout the movie. I'm saying to myself: "how come she doesn't fight any female bad guys?"

Hope this doesn't happen with video games. But I know it will.

 

[Funchameleon]

I was going to bed but then I read this... Sheesh. Honestly women have minds of their own and if they honestly feel like they have to look a certain way then its a self confidence problem.

Haha yeah, there's no problem at all. Girls just need to get over the constant barrage of body-image distorting images and rhetoric fed to them at every opportunity in every single medium, entertainment or otherwise. "Man up", as I always say.

 

[sleepykyo]

Heh, derailed from what? People (including myself, to be fair) stopped talking about the actual update and the Tumblr page detailed in the original post after the first page or two

I'm guessing that these topics continue to get locked because they get so heated even when there's really not anything new to talk about.

Up until the 7th page. There was discussion about her past work and whether her newer work would be higher quality due to the increased funding and media exposure. Or maybe, she'll stick with what has worked so well in the past.

 

[Burgess_101]

I'd say it's more of a cultural problem that men and women feel pressured to look or act a certain way.

Fair enough, maybe I was a tad harsh.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Haha yeah, there's no problem at all. Girls just need to get over the constant barrage of body-image distorting images and rhetoric fed to them at every opportunity in every single medium, entertainment or otherwise. "Man up", as I always say.

ITT: there is no such thing as body-image distorting images and rhetoric of men in every single medium, entertainment or otherwise.

 

[Kazerei]

Fair enough, maybe I was a tad harsh.

You should seriously go to sleep man

 

[idlethreats]

There must be a lot of in-fighting within the feminist movement.

Um, yes? I take it your not really that well versed in feminism then, because otherwise you'd know that this is obviously and absolutely the case. XD This is why it's so ridiculous when some people try and paint all feminists with the same brush in these sorts of threads.

 

[Mononoke]

I'd say it's more of a cultural problem that men and women feel pressured to look or act a certain way.

Pressured by who?

Seems to me, more of an issue of companies making money off everyone, than the opposite sex bullying the other sex to look a certain way. Because men certainly feel the pressure to be ripped, and be in good shape. To look a certain way.

Sex sells, and companies tell you how to be sexy (by of course, buying their products).

 

[Mononoke]

Um, yes? I take it your not really that well versed in feminism then, because otherwise you'd know that this is obviously and absolutely the case. XD This is why it's so ridiculous when some people try and paint all feminists with the same brush in these sorts of threads.

Was being semi-sarcastic.

But truthfully, I would not call myself "well versed".

 

[Burgess_101]

Haha yeah, there's no problem at all. Girls just need to get over the constant barrage of body-image distorting images and rhetoric fed to them at every opportunity in every single medium, entertainment or otherwise. "Man up", as I always say.

Right so as a bloke I get this too. I buy a pair of boxers and there is a muscular bloke on it, I don't look like him, I buy a game and there is a tank of a guy as the protagonist I don't look like him either. I dont beat myself up over it. It applies to both genders but it doesn't effect everyone. I guess my point is that it isn't a female exclusive problem. Discard my self confidence thing I admit that was wrong though obviously if you do it plays a part.

With that Ill take Kazerei's advice, good night

 

[Funchameleon]

ITT: there is no such thing as body-image distorting images and rhetoric of men in every single medium, entertainment or otherwise.

Where did I say that? It's huge a problem for both sexes but you will find a hell of a lot more objectified, perfectly formed and scantily clad women than men absolutely anywhere you choose to look.

Young women are told they are worthless for anything but their looks all of the time. You'll find a lot of fat ugly male entertainment personalities but not many women for instance. Page through some teen magazines aimed at girls then look at similar for boys sometime. It's so endemic it's actually hard to see unless you're conscious of it.

 

[Mononoke]

Where did I say that? It's huge a problem for both sexes but you will find a hell of a lot more objectified, perfectly formed and scantily clad women than men absolutely anywhere you choose to look.

Young women are told they are worthless for anything but their looks all of the time. You'll find a lot of fat ugly male entertainment personalities but not many women for instance. Page through some teen magazines aimed at girls then look at similar for boys sometime. It's so endemic it's actually hard to see unless you're conscious of it.

Got you. I agree with that.

 

[idlethreats]

The thread I made 1-2 days ago about analyzing this situation and wondering where the videos are, was locked almost immediately. It didn't even devolve into arguing or anything of the sort. Let's see how this one does.

And yeah, if the videos are her sitting in front of a screen and talking, the people who donated got had. Plain and simple. Also, Damsel in Distress? Really? I was hoping for something more multi-faceted or complex.

Your thread was probably locked because at that time there was no more new information about the project to discuss. Since then she has posted an update on her Kickstarter page, launched an accompanying tumblr and given an update to at least one media outlet. Now there's an actual conversation to be had about the state of her project that's not dependent on rehashing old news.

And I don't know why you were hoping for something other than damsels in distress. It was always going to be the first video in her series, says so right in the Kickstarter description.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

ITT: there is no such thing as body-image distorting images and rhetoric of men in every single medium, entertainment or otherwise.

No, you don't get it. You're a man! Those things aren't supposed to bother you.

One of things I feel watching her videos, is that she wouldn't be completely happy until there were no genders in games at all. Well, not that, but just an absolute complete blur between men and women. To her, if there's a girl who gets kidnapped, it's stereotyping right off that bat. Yes, that is a trope though.

You have to incorporate at least some forms of gender identity in the quest to uphold and promote feminism. Men and women are not the exact same. Arguing superiority of one gender over another though, in any medium, is inappropriate.

And I don't know why you were hoping for something other than damsels in distress. It was always going to be the first video in her series, says so right in the Kickstarter description.

I was hoping that after this length of time, she decided to tacklr something more complex. Oh well, maybe it'll be more fascinating than my expectations. Or maybe the episodes will get better as they go. Here's to hoping.

 

[Margalis]

Have I angered you?

I'm just trying to have a discussion here. I think I've raised some good points. I'm afraid your petulance might betray the fact that you have no valid response toward mine.

The point you raised was that if someone claims they are performing satire of something then they "objectively" are not guilty of that thing and totally immune to criticism regarding it. That intention is "all that matters" and if you declare your intention you have total license.

The fact that you believe I am now angry and petulant means you don't even believe your own logic. My post was a satire of a belligerent post from a petulant person - no? That is my claimed authorial intent. (I am in fact claiming that right now) So how can I be angry or petulant? I can't!

I could write a "valid response" by pointing out that you don't seem to know what "objectively" means, that your responses to me are full of baseless assumptions (that are in fact false), that you string together non-sequiturs and assertions as if those compose an argument, sure. But this is more fun.

So I think we've established that I can abuse you as much as I want as rudely as I want and still be "objectively" not abusive, because satire! Although I will refrain from doing that, because quite frankly this is far more discussion than The Man Show deserves and I think the point has been made.

 

[Funchameleon]

I was hoping that after this length of time, she decided to tackl something more complex. Oh well, maybe it'll be more fascinating than my expectations. Here's to hoping.

It's complex as hell, dude. Young girls growing up consuming games are bombarded with games whose only women have NO agency, and exist only as a pretty young reward to be persued by the male heroes of the story. A commodity.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Where did I say that? It's huge a problem for both sexes but you will find a hell of a lot more objectified, perfectly formed and scantily clad women than men absolutely anywhere you choose to look.

Young women are told they are worthless for anything but their looks all of the time. You'll find a lot of fat ugly male entertainment personalities but not many women for instance. Page through some teen magazines aimed at girls then look at similar for boys sometime. It's so endemic it's actually hard to see unless you're conscious of it.

Yeah I've done research on the subject, actually. The disparity between men and women was actually not that great. Granted, I conducted it myself (with the aid of a few coders) so my sample size was perhaps not as large or varied as it could have been, but the results I got don't agree with your certainly not vague "a lot of fat ugly male entertainment personalities."

I'm not trying to pass my results off as fact, of course, but there is the tiniest possibility that maybe, just maybe, it's not quite as terrible for women as it's made out to be by some?

Of course, if we're talking about strictly VIDEO GAME related media, then yeah, it's pretty bad. Another study I did on video game advertising depictions of males and females was a pretty clear blowout in the number of sexy objectified female characters versus male.

 

[Margalis]

You'll find a lot of fat ugly male entertainment personalities but not many women for instance.

Every Spanish-language daytime show is hosted by hot 20-something woman and a morbidly obese 50-year-old man. At least that's what I gather from channel-flipping.

 

[Funchameleon]

Every Spanish-language daytime show is hosted by hot 20-something woman and a morbidly obese 50-year-old man. At least that's what I gather from channel-flipping.

Haha, some countries are worse than others, but the "others" still have a good dozen clones of "King of Queens" with fat dumb funny guy and his stunningly attractive wife.

I'd love to see your research akidnamededdy.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

She better. I got 30 bucks riding on her not being a money stealing hack.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Haha, some countries are worse than others, but the "others" still have a good dozen clones of "King of Queens" with fat dumb funny guy and his stunningly attractive wife.

I'd love to see your research akidnamededdy.

I'll see if I can find it...I know I've still got the video game advertising research on an external, but I did the general advertising research a bit earlier than that one and I'm not 100% on its whereabouts.

I may be coming off a bit more combative than I mean to, so sorry about that. Things just always heat up fairly quickly on both sides whenever this topic comes up, haha.

 

[Castle Doctrine]

Pressured by who?

Seems to me, more of an issue of companies making money off everyone, than the opposite sex bullying the other sex to look a certain way. Because men certainly feel the pressure to be ripped, and be in good shape. To look a certain way.

Sex sells, and companies tell you how to be sexy (by of course, buying their products).

I see this a lot but I don't think it's a good counter-argument. It's a false equivalence and pretending the sexes are easily interchangeable. Men don't feel as much pressure as women to be good-looking and in great shape. Men feel more pressure to be productive, to make money, to be socially powerful, and to have status.

There is much more imagery in media that present women as sexual entities. Often doing the presenting are women themselves, not only because they feel pressure, but also because they enjoy being sex objects and the power derived from that.

Aaaaand the reason for all this is, because female sexuality is much more powerful..... never mind.

 

[bigboss370]

A response that is common (and that has even been expressed here) is that they don't understand they're being exploited; a variation being that they just don't know any better. (A similar argument is deployed in the case of oppressed women in the Middle East that stand by their religion.) Those lines of argument make me uncomfortable because the basic premise is that person A is too stupid to understand what person B is doing to them.

eh, men in the middle east have clothing restrictions too based on their religion. Ever seen a middle eastern guy wear shorts?

why is it so hard to accept that some/most women knowingly and consciously present themselves the way they do because they genuinely want to?

 

[Pau]

eh, men in the middle east have clothing restrictions too based on their religion. Ever seen a middle eastern guy wear shorts?

why is it so hard to accept that some/most women knowingly and consciously present themselves the way they do because they genuinely want to?

There's a difference between wanting to present yourself a certain way and being reduced to just that presentation and nothing else. Or at "best" having your looks still widely considered to be the most important aspect of your worth.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Great lesson. Know we know that the next time a woman in a game is in distress we shouldn't save her. Because that would be sexist.

Why is Super Meat Boy on the "Ironic/Retro Damsel"?

Didnt McMillan even say, that the Meatgirl is just the Skin of Super Meatboy and he is just rescuing her, not because she is a damsel in distress, but because he needs her for him to be complete?

I dont know. Maybe she just tried to find a game, where you have to "save" a female character. So would everyone you need to rescue in a videogame in some sort of rescue-mission be a damsel?

 

[idlethreats]

why is it so hard to accept that some/most women knowingly and consciously present themselves the way they do because they genuinely want to?

No more difficult to accept than the fact that none of us live in a vacuum and our wants are influenced heavily by a variety of external factors outside of our control.

 

[jgminto]

Why is Super Meat Boy on the "Ironic/Retro Damsel"?

Didnt McMillan even say, that the Meatgirl is just the Skin of Super Meatboy and he is just rescuing her, not because she is a damsel in distress, but because he needs her for him to be complete?

I dont know. Maybe she just tried to find a game, where you have to "save" a female character. So would everyone you need to rescue in a videogame in some sort of rescue-mission be a damsel?

Yeah, I don't get Machinarium either.

 

[Etzer]

Every Spanish-language daytime show is hosted by hot 20-something woman and a morbidly obese 50-year-old man. At least that's what I gather from channel-flipping.

Haha. Funnily enough, one of the more popular ones is actually called "El Gordo y La Flaca", or "The Fat Man and The Skinny Woman".

 

[bigboss370]

There's a difference between wanting to present yourself a certain way and being reduced to just that presentation and nothing else. Or at "best" having your looks still widely considered to be the most important aspect of your worth.

i'm not sure i understand what you're saying. who is reducing who to what presentation? if you're talking about general looks of people being considered when it comes to social and professional interaction, guys have the same 'pressure' to present themselves a certain way. everyone is a victim of first impressions. and what do you mean at best having your looks considered most important?

No more difficult to accept than the fact that none of us live in a vacuum and our wants are influenced heavily by a variety of external factors outside of our control.

well yeah, but it is a matter of choice when it comes to which external factors each individual decides to be adhere to.

 

[Trey]

It makes sense for her to take her time. Only a vocal few are still up in arms over this, she can release it around the time the gaming industry has the spotlight upon it (next gen) for maximum exposure, and she can thoroughly build her argument to withstand the intense scrutiny it will undoubtedly be subjected to upon release.

 

[Neff]

I've always viewed the damsel as an allegory for what you are actually saving. Mario saves the princess not because she is a woman but what she represents in that world, peace.

I don't think Sarkeesian is intelligent enough understand such themes. Her general view is that anything publicly perceived to be politically correct is good, and anything publicly perceived to be politically incorrect is bad, and she goes to rather silly, extreme lengths to compound it.

 

[bigboss370]

It makes sense for her to take her time. Only a vocal few are still up in arms over this, she can release it around the time the gaming industry has the spotlight upon it (next gen) for maximum exposure, and she can thoroughly build her argument to withstand the intense scrutiny it will undoubtedly be subjected to upon release.

maximum exposure? i think she'll just get buried under all the next gen stuff. better to release it now early in the year when nothing much is really going on in gaming. all news sites will probably pick up on it. later may be too late.

 

[thebaroness]

Heh, derailed from what? People (including myself, to be fair) stopped talking about the actual update and the Tumblr page detailed in the original post after the first page or two

I'm guessing that these topics continue to get locked because they get so heated even when there's really not anything new to talk about.

Because the last page has become people arguing about whether or not specific things offend them or not; turning into heated finger pointing. As soon as that happens a discussion ends.

I mean honestly, bringing up Shadow of the Collossus in a feminism debating is practically making it the Godwin's Law of gaming.


The entire issue that most people miss in equality in the sexes is supposed to be about distancing the importance of a person's appearance from their value. Does the person do important things? Is the woman relevant to what's going on? Does she have anything of value to add to the story? Those are the questions that should be talked about, not how they are marketed. The damsel in distress is a good trope because it is lazy story writing. "We have this character, he needs a motive. Kidnap or kill his love interest." However, I stand by my statement that Anita is not the right person to do this.

It doesn't matter if the woman has huge breasts, small breasts, is pretty, short, fat, thin, beautiful, ugly, etc. Non of these things matter when talking about someone's merit. And That is the goddamn point of feminism.

 

[Coxy]

any reason why people couldnt use the $158,000 to fund some games that DO appeal to them instead of a dramatic reading of tvtropes?

 

[bigboss370]

I've always viewed the damsel as an allegory for what you are actually saving. Mario saves the princess not because she is a woman but what she represents in that world, peace.

I don't think Sarkeesian is intelligent enough understand such themes. Her general view is that anything publicly perceived to be politically correct is good, and anything publicly perceived to be politically incorrect is bad, and she goes to rather silly, extreme lengths to compound it.

I wonder if she'll use Raiden rescuing Emma Emmerich in MGS2 as an example of damsel in distress. Because context is so important in something like that, which is leagues different from say..Mario. Will she focus on the fact that its a case of a guy rescuing a helpless girl, or will she realize he's rescuing a 12 year old kid, who also happens to be the genius that saves the day.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

any reason why people couldnt use the $158,000 to fund some games that DO appeal to them instead of a dramatic reading of tvtropes?

C'mon, y'all. That's some funky logic.

People know that you can like a thing and still criticize it, right? I mean we'll all see when Anita *finally* actually releases a video in this series, but seriously. I would wager that most people who contributed money to this project own and enjoy one or several games that are going to be discussed. It's possible to love Super Mario Brothers and recognize that, hey, the whole rescuing-a-princess-from-the-tower shtick plays into some age-old gender role stuff.