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"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)

Noogy

Member
Captain N. Tenneal, Branduil, and Noogy, thanks for the responses. And in regards to your post Noogy, that was more info than I was anticipating, and was a particularly good read. Thanks again.

No problem. I should note that my post sort of assumes that a team is doing the work.

As an indie who has to do it all, the answer is much easier. CG is a piece of cake compared to traditional animation. I can pump out hours of CG animation in the time it takes me to do a minute of production-level traditional.
 

dLMN8R

Member
Ok, so I have no idea about programming, game development and so on but just comparing to other businesses and projects I am puzzled how it can take 8*10*50=400 man-days excluding additional outsourced work (!!!) to make a character. I don't even doubt the cost but the assumed man-days seem astonishing to me.

There's a really cool 11 page thread where people are asking questions like this and others with experience in the area describe in detail the answers to those questions.

You should read it. It's pretty neat.
 

Branduil

Member
As both a traditional and CG animator, it's hard to say one is easier than the other. I tend to believe that traditional animation is much more tedious and time consuming, but it's not like CG is a walk in the park. Here's a rudimentary breakdown of how each method would approach a scene in a film.

Prepping the backgrounds:
CG: A set is built and lit, once. The camera can be changed at any moment during production of the scene. This set can be used multiple times.
Traditional: The layout, lighting, and camera angle are agreed upon for each shot, and a background artists paint the scene. This needs to be done for every new shot.

Prepping the characters:
CG: Lots of time spent modeling, rigging, texturing and mapping a model. But you really only do it once at the beginning of the project, and it's usually not done by the animator.
Traditional: Not much to do here beyond the design of the character. Nothing created during this phase will ever be seen by the audience.

Animation:
CG: Animation takes time, but iteration is quick. And you only need to do keyframes.
Traditional: Animation takes time, and iteration means you might be redoing a number of frames, if not the whole scene. Depending on the complexity and speed of the motion, the lead animator could be roughing every frame. Even within a single frame, iterating something like a leg would require redrawing several joints, whereas you'd be moving a few dummies in CG.

Inbetweening:
CG: You watch the computer do it. The character is always perfectly 'on model' (looks exactly as he should.)
Traditional: You painstakingly tween every frame. This is normally handled by a team of animators who have to work very closely with the lead animator to make sure each drawing is on model. A single mistween can break the illusion of the motion, and depending on the amount of time between keys, could mean a lot of redrawn frames.

Rendering:
CG: Lighting artists prepare the scene, once, and then the computer renders it out.
Traditional: These days every frame is manually cleaned up and colored digitally, at least we aren't using cels and paint anymore. Well, us sane ones anyway. It's extremely tedious either way. An artist has to manually clean and color every line, fill character with appropriate colors, and through various methods apply shading, which itself had to be hand animated.

Compositing:
CG & Traditional: With digital tools, this is where the two are actually pretty similar. Just a matter of layering the artwork. There's more manual work with traditional, particularly if the camera is really dynamic, but otherwise the steps are nearly identical.

As you can see, CG requires more prep work (modeling, lighting, etc), but once those assets are done, it's relatively quick to push out scenes since the computer handles a lot of the dirty work. Traditional animation pretty much requires the same amount of work for every shot, it's not like you can create a set of assets and reuse them over and over again (without looking cheap.)

The biggest difference between the two, for me personally, is the ability to iterate after a sequence is complete. Don't like the camera angle used? Wish you had given your lead a bigger jaw? Decided to backlight this scene? If you had done it traditionally, there's no easy way to make these changes.

They are both great artforms. It's unfortunate that there's this perception that traditional is somehow cheaper and easier to do.
Another really good post.
 

dLMN8R

Member
I don't know how the kind of people who post on a forum like this DON'T already know this.....

People who would rather spend their time arguing about console specs they don't understand and sales figures they can't place in correct worldwide or relative context. And then they go on to call everyone with experience liars while they proclaim expertise from ignorance.

ib1usuY48ryOeN.gif
 

Copenap

Member
The guy that posted the character he drew said it took him 2.5 hours to draw. Now do that more than 1500 times...
If that's the process of creating a character, drawing the whole thing all over again 1500 times, I imagine there is a potential for optimisation.

Anyway, interesting to see nevertheless.
 

Irnbru

Member
If that's the process of creating a character, drawing the whole thing all over again 1500 times, I imagine there is a potential for optimisation.

Anyway, interesting to see nevertheless.

There is, but take into account you don't work 24 hour days, there is a deadline, errors happen, programming happens, they need to be implemented together, need to be redone and redone again in the q and a process, 1500 is the finished product of frames, so add a thousand that are thrown away. Yeah. That's just looking at it from an accounting prospective not an artists
 

Noogy

Member
If that's the process of creating a character, drawing the whole thing all over again 1500 times, I imagine there is a potential for optimisation.

Anyway, interesting to see nevertheless.

The problem is that you don't just draw it 1500 times.

You draw Frame 0. You draw Frame 10. Now you tween Frame 5. Hmm, Frame 10 would ease in better if changed. Ok, now Frame 5 needs to be retweened. The inbetweener eased in too fast drawing frames 6-9. Now Frames 11-14 have this weird pop, that needs fixing.

See how this can go on? My experience says that 1500 frames of FINISHED animation requires about 5000 rough drawings, and 1500 cleanup drawings, assuming the cleanup/inkers didn't mess up.

Another really difficult thing about animation is the loop. Loops have to be extremely tight otherwise the viewer will notice a pop, or be too aware of the loop. Animation in games are nothing but loops, for the most part, and these require special attention.

It's often said one of the hardest things to animate is the walk, just because there are so many overlapping bits, and it has to loop seemlessly.
 

dLMN8R

Member
There is, but take into account you don't work 24 hour days, there is a deadline, errors happen, programming happens, they need to be implemented together, need to be redone and redone again in the q and a process, 1500 is the finished product of frames, so add a thousand that are thrown away. Yeah. That's just looking at it from an accounting prospective not an artists

And then, of course, the little tasks of actually designing what the character is, what its purpose is, how it defines itself and fulfills something missing, and then the endless task of actually balancing it against every single other character.
 

dLMN8R

Member
why dont more devs do this then

most games nowadays cant realize their full vision because of budget constraints

seems the more in love with you your fanbase is the more you can milk them for funding

Or maybe the devs just made an awesome fucking game and through extremely hard work earned the good will of a devoted fanbase that trusts it to provide awesome content through up-front funding.


Jesus christ, such fucking ignorance combined with endless cynicism toward a developer like this has got to be one of the most depressing things that the Internet has ever cultivated.
 

Irnbru

Member
why dont more devs do this then

most games nowadays cant realize their full vision because of budget constraints

seems the more in love with you your fanbase is the more you can milk them for funding

You heard it first hear folks, $600 week with an 80+ hour work week is milking the fans.
Honestly I'm putting money down on this game just because of this. I just don't comprehend how people can't comprehend.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
why dont more devs do this then

most games nowadays cant realize their full vision because of budget constraints

seems the more in love with you your fanbase is the more you can milk them for funding

That is still a fairly young business model. Especially for games.
 
Or maybe the devs just made an awesome fucking game and through extremely hard work earned the good will of a devoted fanbase that trusts it to provide awesome content through up-front funding.


Jesus christ, such fucking ignorance combined with endless cynicism toward a developer like this has got to be one of the most depressing things that the Internet has ever cultivated.

is the game really awesome or do people just love looking at the sexy characters and high quality animations?

theres got to be some reason there is no competitive scene for it which is pretty much what determines a well put together fighter from all the rest
 
If that's the process of creating a character, drawing the whole thing all over again 1500 times, I imagine there is a potential for optimisation.

Anyway, interesting to see nevertheless.

Did you read the article in the original post? Did you see the part where an employee of Capcom, the company with absolutely the most experience in making this kind of game, said that the budget for this character seemed cheap? Don't you think that in 20-something years of making 2D fighting games that Capcom would have figured out pretty much every possible way they could think of to optimize the process? By the way, looking at Capcom, it seems like their answer was to not make those kinds of games anymore, and to switch to 3D animation.
 
I would love to know what the full budget of the game was. I'm guessing around $2 - 2.5 million. If that is true then they would have had to sell around 213,000 copies to break even at $11.20 a copy ($15 - 30% royalty). Sales like that would be able to run a sustainable company.

Really my gut tells me that a 2d fighter should actually be premium priced at around $30-$40. Niche gamers really should be paying more for what they like and it sort of holds true given the donations they received so quickly to support the game.
 

kurahador

Member
is the game really awesome or do people just love looking at the sexy characters and high quality animations?

Lol...this thread is going places. Can't wait for the argument of loli & sexism to come out now.

Thx to the ppl who responding. I love learning about other industry that far detached from my career.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Let's do some math here, it took you 2.5 hours to do this, and giving a super conservative only 2000 drawn frames to be made at a rate of 2.5, thats 5000 hours. Only for the drawings. And people are being ignorant about time and costs, jesus h christ

Yeah, this did dawn on me while drawing it.

Minor note though, consider that part of that 2.5 hours went into coming up with the design elements. I tried a few different shapes and erased things before landing on that one. Plus, each drawing is going to be based on the drawing that comes before it, which doesn't mean you get to just trace, but you do get a very close reference for your next drawing. So 1-1.5 hours is more what each frame would likely take. That's 3000 hours. Working 12 hour days gives you 250 days. Of course that doesn't count all the problems and redoing that you'll have to do along the way.

Of course I haven't ever done anything like this; RagingSpaniard has. As mentioned above, Capcom has and says this figure seems cheap. So I'm not doubting that the Skullgirls devs are hard working by any means, I'm confident they are very efficient. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it really.
 
Yeah, this did dawn on me while drawing it.

Minor note though, consider that part of that 2.5 hours went into coming up with the design elements. I tried a few different shapes and erased things before landing on that one. Plus, each drawing is going to be based on the drawing that comes before it, which doesn't mean you get to just trace, but you do get a very close reference for your next drawing. So 1-1.5 hours is more what each frame would likely take. That's 3000 hours. Working 12 hour days gives you 250 days. Of course that doesn't count all the problems and redoing that you'll have to do along the way.

And I haven't ever done anything like this; RagingSpaniard has. As mentioned above, Capcom has and says this figure seems cheap. I'm not doubting that the Skullgirls devs are hard working by any means, I'm confident they are very good. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it really.

moral of the story: just be a plumber

zero stress and great pay

and you get to let your dick hang out
 

Keikaku

Member
Okay but... Let's say I as a consumer love the game they make and want to support them so they can make more of it. What in the world can I do? Spend fifteen freaking dollars and walk away? I personally don't think they're seeing nearly as much of a return as they deserve, and yet I feel like I can't do anything about it

Basically, if I'm a fan, seeing these numbers kills me because I worry about the team in the long term. But they're doing it to themselves and I don't want them to! They/you seem to accept these salaries whether by fear of internet outrage or peer pressure or whatever, and I feel like that would only do more harm than good. There's got to be another way!
All you can do is buy the game on your end. Unless you're in the industry or have some deeper knowledge of dev costs it's hard to educate people about why their expectations are so astronomical sometimes.

I just got through re-tooling myself and changing careers to get into this industry (I was an accountant, now a 3D environment artist) and I can definitely say one thing: thank goodness I didn't get into this for the pay and thank goodness I saved up for a while before making the leap.

As an accountant, I started at $12,000/year and got to $34,000/year a little under a year later. That's no great shakes but I graduated college in 2006 and with the economy being the way it was back then, I was just happy to have some sort of job, regardless of how shit it was. I moved in with my parents, saved up, borrowed money (from parents and the government) and went back to college to learn all this 3D art stuff. While I was still in school, I shopped my small 3D portfolio around and was lucky enough to land a gig.

I was the primary environment modeler for a small indie studio that had been fortunate enough (hahahahah, yeah right) to land the rights to do the iOS/PC adaptation of a pretty major board game license. This was a new and quite popular board game but it's not like the licensing company was going to pay enough to have full-time pro artists working on this game so money was tight. I know for a fact that the 2 devs working full time on the game made about $20K each. The artist who did the high-poly sculpts for all the characters and enemies (about 40 characters total) got maybe $1000. I did all the environments (8 environments, many smaller props) and all the attack/idle animations for all of the characters in the game. I got $300 for what was about 8 months of work. The UI artist and the texture artist both got nothing. All of us promised jobs once the game came out. 2 months from release, the company went tits up when the licensing company lost interest in getting a digital version of the game made, stopped funding us and none of us had jobs any more. I can't even get in touch with anyone from the company to see if I can use the assets I created as part of my portfolio because they vanished.

Now, obviously this is only my experience but from talking my friends in the industry who do indie development, this is not unique. Pay on the lower end of the scale is abysmal. None of us is in this for the pay. Almost every artist I've ever met who works on video games does it for love of the art and the medium. Even now that I have a regular, paid, part-time position (I'm still going to school, so this works for now), I'll be lucky to clear $1000/month. That's enough to cover rent, food and maybe health insurance but I'm sure as shit not saving anything and, if I don't convert this to full time, I definitely won't be able to pay off student loans.

That's why every time I see people making wild ass assumptions on GAF (or anywhere else, for that matter) about dev costs, my blood starts boiling.
 

Servbot24

Banned
I know for a fact that the 2 devs working full time on the game made about $20K each. The artist who did the high-poly sculpts for all the characters and enemies (about 40 characters total) got maybe $1000. I did all the environments (8 environments, many smaller props) and all the attack/idle animations for all of the characters in the game. I got $300 for what was about 8 months of work. The UI artist and the texture artist both got nothing.

This is absolutely terrible, but pretty common. Inexperienced artists will do anything to get into the industry, they end up working for inexcusably shit rates , and as a result they drive the worth of artwork down and it affects the experienced artists because fewer clients become willing to pay their rates. Pretty serious problem.
 

Noogy

Member
This is absolutely terrible, but pretty common. Inexperienced artists will do anything to get into the industry, they end up working for inexcusably shit rates , and as a result they drive the worth of artwork down and it affects the experienced artists because fewer clients become willing to pay their rates. Pretty serious problem.

Yeah, this is the gamble indies make :p I worked nearly 4 years on Dust:AET and didn't make a dime during production. Fortunately sales were good and made it all worth it, but it was a gamble I couldn't afford to lose.
 

dLMN8R

Member
By the way, people should realize that those who understand the economics and support the idea of the Kickstarter aren't suggesting that the Kickstarter "deserves" to succeed or that the Skullgirls developers inherently "deserve" to make their money back on this game. If customers ultimately decide they don't want it, if the Kickstarter had failed, whatever, that's another story entirely.

It succeeded with flying colors, so great, but I don't think anyone thinks they were entitled to that success.



But no matter whether you think this thing should succeed or not, you can't just go and call them liars for stating these economic realities if you don't have a damned great reason why, and if you don't then go and propose an alternate budget they should be able to create this for with extremely crisp details of how you reached that number.
 

Branduil

Member
This is absolutely terrible, but pretty common. Inexperienced artists will do anything to get into the industry, they end up working for inexcusably shit rates , and as a result they drive the worth of artwork down and it affects the experienced artists because fewer clients become willing to pay their rates. Pretty serious problem.

And this is why I think Kickstarter and Indiegogo are such good things.
 
I would love to know what the full budget of the game was. I'm guessing around $2 - 2.5 million. If that is true then they would have had to sell around 213,000 copies to break even at $11.20 a copy ($15 - 30% royalty). Sales like that would be able to run a sustainable company.

Really my gut tells me that a 2d fighter should actually be premium priced at around $30-$40. Niche gamers really should be paying more for what they like and it sort of holds true given the donations they received so quickly to support the game.

The last official sales number for Skullgirls we ever got was 50,000 copies.
 

likeGdid

Member
3ZQ6Uif.gif

boom. dynamic attack animation and it only took me five minutes in photoshop. Where are my piles of money?

Seriously though, it's pretty amazing how much work is put into these games, and even more amazing how easily some people could write it off.
 

Cha

Member
The problem is that you don't just draw it 1500 times.

You Frame 0. You draw Frame 10. Now you tween Frame 5. Hmm, Frame 10 would ease in better if changed. Ok, now Frame 5 needs to be retweened. The inbetweener eased in too fast drawing frames 6-9. Now Frames 11-14 have this weird pop, that needs fixing.

.

Are you perhaps talking about how the animation of moves for fighting games need to be adjusted to effectively communicate "anticipation", "impact" and "follow through" within a certain number of frames? For instance, small hits animations are quick and have less anticipation, whereas heavy attacks, need to be animated in a way that clearly announces a move before executing and following through, so that players have time to react accordingly. Cos, I can see that as being a seriously tedious job for 2D animators. Insane (if that is what you're talking about).
 
The last official sales number for Skullgirls we ever got was 50,000 copies.

Yeah, 10 days after release. It would have dropped off after that. Hopefully it clawed it's way to 200k between all platforms. It is tough too as every month that goes by with descending sales is another month of overhead where you are struggling to catch up.

The economic realities of games outside the CoDs of the world make me depressed when people seem to want more content for less money.
 

Noogy

Member
Are you perhaps talking about how the animation of moves for fighting games need to be adjusted to effectively communicate "anticipation", "impact" and "follow through" within a certain number of frames? For instance, small hits animations are quick and have less anticipation, whereas heavy attacks, need to be animated in a way that clearly announces a move before executing and following through, so that players have time to react accordingly. Cos, I can see that as being a seriously tedious job for 2D animators. Insane (if that is what you're talking about).

It sort of applies to all traditional animation of decent quality, but you're right in that it's much more exacting in something like a fighting game.

The animators are trying to tell a little story with every move, and to reinforce what makes the character interesting. It's an incredibly tedious and deeply heartfelt process that takes a lot of iteration, and a bit of a tough skin.

These are also challenges with CG, but again, you can sort of slide keyframes around and it's a much easier process. Also take into account the technical limitations of fitting the artwork on a sprite sheet, having it fit and load into memory, and you see that it's an incredibly complex process beyond 'draw a pretty picture.'
 

wildfire

Banned
Ok, so I have no idea about programming, game development and so on but just comparing to other businesses and projects I am puzzled how it can take 8*10*50=400 man-days excluding additional outsourced work (!!!) to make a character. I don't even doubt the cost but the assumed man-days seem astonishing to me.

Newsflash. The character is the game. As someone mentioned earlier consider a character in a fighting game as a multiple full blown levels in your typical FPS game. There is a ton of work involved in making a fighting game character work that simply isn't required in other games.
 

danmaku

Member
is the game really awesome or do people just love looking at the sexy characters and high quality animations?

theres got to be some reason there is no competitive scene for it which is pretty much what determines a well put together fighter from all the rest

The main reason is that there are far too many fighting games out there, and it takes a long time to get good at one of them. Even expert / pro players have a limited amount of time. It's hard for a new IP AND a new dev to create a player base. That said, the game just came out in Japan and seems to be going well, and Japanese players play everything, even hilariously broken stuff like HnK. If they like Skullgirls, it'll have a scene.
 
Are the characters being given away for free or are they being sold? I would assume the donators would get it free either way. If they have non-donators pay, that seems a bit messed up to ask for $150k. It just seems wrong to ask for the fan base to pay for the development of something completely when you plan to sell it as well.

People are free to do it, and people obviously care enough to donate for some odd reason. But at that point, it's not so much "kick starting" as it is "online begging".
 

Chavelo

Member
X amount of money for Y piece of work? I'm pretty sure (my amateur ass) can make Y for 1/8 of the X amount in like Z amount of time! What a rip-off!

God damn, I love reading posts like that all around. :D

Are the characters being given away for free or are they being sold? I would assume the donators would get it free either way. If they have non-donators pay, that seems a bit messed up to ask for $150k. It just seems wrong to ask for the fan base to pay for the development of something completely when you plan to sell it as well.

People are free to do it, and people obviously care enough to donate for some odd reason. But at that point, it's not so much "kick starting" as it is "online begging".

Or like this one. Holy shit, do you even read, bro? I would quote the exact same part from the article right now but Giant Bomb is down for some reason. They'll be free from three months.
 
No problem, this thread has been all about confusion :)

All kidding aside, this thread has been very informative. It's really great that the Skullgirls team decided to be so transparent about the costs of development. I'm glad their fanbase responded so well.

Only one question still lingers - how the fuck do people think $600/week is a salary that needs to be reduced? I wouldn't get out of bed for $600/week.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Are the characters being given away for free or are they being sold? I would assume the donators would get it free either way. If they have non-donators pay, that seems a bit messed up to ask for $150k. It just seems wrong to ask for the fan base to pay for the development of something completely when you plan to sell it as well.

People are free to do it, and people obviously care enough to donate for some odd reason. But at that point, it's not so much "kick starting" as it is "online begging".
The DLC is free for everyone three months after release. After which it'll cost five dollars.

It says as much on the project's IndieGogo page.

Hardly the most insidious thing on the planet.
 
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