Support NeoGAF

[Triple U]

So you're saying if I build a system with 24GB of GDDR5 RAM and a 5450 that RAM won't go to waste?

An over abundance of ram is like the polar opposite of a bottleneck. Mostly proccessing elements get bottlenecked .They can be bottlenecked by insufficient caches, by insufficient memory, by a lack of bandwidth, etc.

But none of that applies here.

Where do you think game assets load from?

Developers had better master streaming everything during gameplay if they want to clamp down on load times.

With 8gbs of ram, there will be plenty of room for caching. I expect alot of games on both systems to stream from RAM. And that's without saying that we have no idea of what Sony has in place for HDD or what if any performance penalties it has.

I think the HDD comments are mostly people grasping for straws to say the guys wrong or just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, or both.

 

[cakefoo]

Despite several explanations it's still amazing some people in this thread still have no idea what a bottleneck is.

I say we put relevant definitions in the OP and ban anyone who doesn't read it

 

[LCGeek]

I say we put relevant definitions in the OP and ban anyone who doesn't read it

Funny you're talking about bans when you're breaking a big no no rule here. You're not new here and should realize what it is.

 

[Loofy]

what does the HDD bottleneck? the optical drive? the gpu? the cpu? the ram usage?

it's in it's own contained environment effecting load times, it's not a bottleneck as far as i can tell. also, you can always swap it out for an SSD.

Windows experience index says my harddrive speed is a bottleneck.

 

[cakefoo]

Funny you're talking about bans when you're breaking a big no no rule here. You're not new here and should realize what it is.

So why waste a post back and forth when you could have just said what it is I did wrong?

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Great, can't wait to hear about how inadequate it is in 18 months then. Well, from console gamers at least. I'm sure PC gamers cam already tell you a dozen ways it falls short of their $2500 rig. The only thing that's certain is that once people acclimate to the bells and whistles of yet another new generation their appetite for greater fidelity will grow as ravenously as ever. Oh well, here's to the eternal cycle!

 

[Triple U]

Great, can't wait to hear about how inadequate it is in 18 months then. Well, from console gamers at least. I'm sure PC gamers cam already tell you a dozen ways it falls short of their $2500 rig. The only thing that's certain is that once people acclimate to the bells and whistles of yet another new generation their appetite for greater fidelity will grow as ravenously as ever. Oh well, here's to the eternal cycle!

For fucks sake.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Isn't the new Killzone running at 30 fps?

 

[Valnen]

Great, can't wait to hear about how inadequate it is in 18 months then. Well, from console gamers at least. I'm sure PC gamers cam already tell you a dozen ways it falls short of their $2500 rig. The only thing that's certain is that once people acclimate to the bells and whistles of yet another new generation their appetite for greater fidelity will grow as ravenously as ever. Oh well, here's to the eternal cycle!

Why do people keep posting this in this thread. That's not what bottleneck means.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Why do people keep posting this in this thread. That's not what bottleneck means.

Because it's true of every piece of hardware, no matter how much people wank to the specs pre-release. I'm glad to hear that Sony has taken a balanced approach to power, but the point is that people will find a reason to be dissatisfied no matter what. Not to mention optimistic buzz and developer comments don't preclude some unknown hardware idiosyncrasy popping up somewhere along the line anyway. If you've been following games for more than a generation or two you've already seen this sort of unabashed praise in the honeymoon period of a system's hype a dozen times over by now.

 

[squidyj]

Isn't the new Killzone running at 30 fps?

and your point is?

 

[Betrayer of hope]

30 fps for a flagship console and yet say they there is no bottleneck.

Does not compute. The CPU will be the bottleneck

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Ask PC gamers now, they'll point out the CPU and GPU are already bottlenecks.

Try reading the OP.

 

[perineumlick]

30 fps for a flagship console and yet say they there is no bottleneck.

Does not compute. The CPU will be the bottleneck

Lol. This thread is priceless!

 

[Hydrogen]

Please stop mentioning "30 fps!!" it could play games at 1 fps and have no bottlenecks.

Page 8, gaf still thinks "no bottlenecks" means "infinite power". OP should clear that up.

 

[squidyj]

30 fps for a flagship console and yet say they there is no bottleneck.

Does not compute. The CPU will be the bottleneck

You clearly

a. don't understand what a bottleneck is
and b

b. don't understand how fucking grating it is to hear people whinging about 60fps all the time.

also c
c. don't understand that 60 fps was never going to be the standard and anyone who thought it would be was deluding themselves.

 

[cakefoo]

Because it's true of every piece of hardware, no matter how much people wank to the specs pre-release. I'm glad to hear that Sony has taken a balanced approach to power, but the point is that people will find a reason to be dissatisfied no matter what. Not to mention optimistic buzz and developer comments don't preclude some unknown hardware idiosyncrasy popping up somewhere along the line anyway. If you've been following games for more than a generation or two you've already seen this sort of unabashed praise in the honeymoon period of a system's hype a dozen times over by now.

You seem to know what a bottleneck is, and there IS of course the chance that the PS4 will indeed have SOME bottleneck... but what a lot of people poking at the "no bottleneck" claim aren't realizing is that this is not about the PS4 having unlimited power.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Holy fuck I wish people would get the fuck over 60 fps! It's not happening. Accept it and move on. Christ it's annoying.

 

[cakefoo]

Sometimes I wish GAF was structured like Reddit, where the most helpful and pertinent posts float to the top and stimulate quality discussion instead of this repetitive nonsense.

Holy fuck I wish people would get the fuck over 60 fps! It's not happening. Accept it and move on. Christ it's annoying.

You've just decided it? Oh, see, I missed the part where I wasn't invited to that discussion.

 

[Toxa]

30 fps for a flagship console and yet say they there is no bottleneck.

Does not compute. The CPU will be the bottleneck

60fps is everything

 

[Earthpainting]

Has there ever been an instance in the past where a first party developer didn't praise the specs of an unreleased console? Whether or not the system has any bottlenecks will become apparent enough in the course of its life cycle.

 

[perineumlick]

Has there ever been an instance in the past where a first party developer didn't praise the specs of an unreleased console? Whether or not the system has any bottlenecks will become apparent enough in the course of its life cycle.

Plenty of third party devs have voiced their praise for the PS4 also, which is why I don't understand why GG' opinion is being downplayed by some here. Actually, I do understand, but I'm not gonna go there.

 

[squidyj]

Sometimes I wish GAF was structured like Reddit, where the most helpful and pertinent posts float to the top and stimulate quality discussion instead of this repetitive nonsense.

You've just decided it? Oh, see, I missed the part where I wasn't invited to that discussion.

it didn't need to be decided because it was never going to happen. not ever.

 

[Triple U]

Has there ever been an instance in the past where a first party developer didn't praise the specs of an unreleased console? Whether or not the system has any bottlenecks will become apparent enough in the course of its life cycle.

Honestly, the thing about him being first party is cheap and irrelevant. Cherrypicking if you will. And most bottlenecks are found out immediately.

 

[childplease]

60fps is everything

It really is.

It is one of the major reasons why COD is so successful, along with crisper smoother images, 60 fps bring forth so much control responsiveness.

Remember the kz2 controller input lag ?

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Plenty of third party devs have voiced their praise for the PS4 also, which is why I don't understand why GG' opinion is being downplayed by some here. Actually, I do understand, but I'm not gonna go there.

C'mon, I'm sure this will be a revelation. No reason to dangle it out there if you don't want people to know what you think.

 

[Smash]

C'mon, I'm sure this will be a revelation. No reason to dangle it out there if you don't want people to know what you think.

No need, we all understand what he means thanks to posters like you for example who came in here to troll console gamers and tell us that hardware tends to get old (NO SHIT!) which are both completely irrelevant to the subject of bottlenecks.

 

[-tetsuo-]

and your point is?

I would think my point is pretty obvious.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

No need, we all know what he means and judging from posters like you for example who came in here to troll console gamers and tell us that hardware tends to get old (NO SHIT!) which are both completely irrelevant to the subject of bottlenecks, I'd say he's pretty spot on.

If you're so confident of what he means why be obtuse? Either say what's on your mind or stop intimating. Again, it'd be great to hear all about the shadowy conspiracy theory by "posters like me". Or maybe I've just touched a sore spot? And my point wasn't that hardware gets old, but I guess you'd have to see past your blind groping anger for the ol' reading comprehension to kick in.

 

[perineumlick]

I would think my point is pretty oblivious.

Fixed.

 

[-tetsuo-]

You can do better than that.

 

[Smash]

If you're so confident of what he means why be obtuse? Either say what's on your mind or stop intimating. Again, it'd be great to hear all about the shadowy conspiracy theory by "posters like me". Or maybe I've just touched a sore spot? And my point wasn't that hardware gets old, but I guess you'd have to see past your blind groping anger for the ol' reading comprehension to kick in.

Please, explain to us the point of that post and how it adds anything to the subject of bottlenecks.

 

[Ce-Lin]

great news, you wouldn't want a powerful CPU sitting idle waiting for the GPU to process the graphics workload... just to get frustrated and make the CPU do GPU stuff to speed up your performance (hi there PS3), I guess Guerrilla mean this time they can use hardware parts as they're supposed to be used, CPU for physics, AI, sound, collisions, network code and GPU for graphics and more graphics with an extra eye-candy layer of compute units-generated effects, for sure RAM won't be a problem this time either.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Please, explain to us the point of that post and how it adds anything to the subject of bottlenecks.

Own what you're thinking instead of making vague references and I'll be happy to elaborate further.

 

[perineumlick]

You can do better than that.

So can you. You mean to tell me that as much as you post on this board, you can't figure out that KZ being 30fps has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Why are so many of you drawing this line in the sand, and totally missing the point of the OP? It has to be trolling, since there is a lot of info in here to call upon.

 

[Toxa]

It really is.

It is one of the major reasons why COD is so successful, along with crisper smoother images, 60 fps bring forth so much control responsiveness.

Remember the kz2 controller input lag ?

60fps lead nowhere it's still the same game

 

[Smash]

Own what you're thinking instead of making vague references and I'll be happy to elaborate further.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Anyway, I'll stop wasting my time with a poster that came here to tell us that in (future) hindsight all hardware looks old so there no point talking about it and that we shouldn't.

 

[Earthpainting]

Plenty of third party devs have voiced their praise for the PS4 also, which is why I don't understand why GG' opinion is being downplayed by some here. Actually, I do understand, but I'm not gonna go there.

No need for tinfoil hats. I am not necessarily trying to cast doubt on their opinion since, like you already pointed out, third party developers already vouched the system's components quite strongly. However I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a first party studio would praise it regardless of what's inside the console. Hence why I was curious to see if there had been an instance of a first party developer coming out and discussing bottlenecks well in advance. There might be some value in framing your bottlenecks in the right way, seeing as they will be talked about sooner or later anyway.

 

[-tetsuo-]

It has to be trolling, since there is a lot of info in here to call upon.

I wouldn't dream of it.

Surely, if a game isn't running at least 60 fps it is being held back by hardware.

 

[Ce-Lin]

Remember the kz2 controller input lag ?

It was amazing, if that was a bug then it was the best bug ever, the weapons had a distinct feeling, the weight and the recoil so realistic for a console shooter, I played through KZ2 dozens of times and remember the patch that included the "alternate" (fixed) controls, I still preferred the buggy ones. KZ3 was way more COD-twitchy and the gunplay wasn't anywhere as rewarding as that of KZ2, but this is an opinion vastly different from that of most GAF users, which I understand.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Yeah, that's what I thought. No point discussing further with a poster that came here to tell us that in (future) hindsight all hardware looks old so there no point discussing about it.

Likewise, there's no point in talking with someone too cowardly to come out and say what's on their mind. I already said I'd be glad to elaborate upon my views, but I have no interest in engaging with people who speak in code and sprinkle in insinuations that they're unwilling to articulate or defend. Especially when they're tripping over themselves to ascribe opinions to me that don't even exist.

I guess you'll never get to know more about my super secret and totally wacky views on how hardware is perceived before release and how those perceptions shift as gamers acclimate to it, or how that could relate tangentially to the subject of performance bottlenecks. Mostly because I'm a shadowy troll working in cahoots with other dastardly posters "like me", and not someone just relating my thoughts when I read the OP.

 

[perineumlick]

I wouldn't dream of it.

Surely, if a game isn't running at least 60 fps it is being held back by hardware.

Alright, now we're getting somewhere. My opinion is, GG has made the design choice because yes, the hardware may not be able to handle their vision of the game at 60fps, so the compromise was made. This doesn't mean that the system is bottlenecked; it just isn't as capable as a high end PC might be. We have to be realistic in our expectations; no one wants to pay for an $800 console, but we all want pretty graphics, so there has to be a trade off. GG are known for their highly detailed graphics and textures, and KZ never played like a COD game, so 30fps is where they felt comfortable with the type of game they wanted to make. If you want a KZ at 60 fps, it will probably have to look more like COD. I would like to be proven wrong down the line, but if not I can accept it.

 

[Limit]

Perhaps given the price range all components are balanced out but I am speculative of the notion that the CPU won't hold back PS4's GPU in the long term. PS4's APU is basically a more efficient version of CPU and GPU pairing that can be found in MSI's GX60 laptop; and its performance results are a clear indication of AMD CPU bottlenecking the 7970M GPU.

 

[Perkel]

Perhaps given the price range all components are balanced out but I am speculative of the notion that the CPU won't hold back PS4's GPU in the long term. PS4's APU is basically a more efficient version of CPU and GPU pairing that can be found in MSI's GX60 laptop; and its performance results are a clear indication of AMD CPU bottlenecking the 7970M GPU.

1. It is APU so we don't know how it will work
2. Custom silicon to offload CPU (for example physic)
3. Closed box.

You can't compare it like that. Right now nr1 resource hog for CPU is physic. If physic will be done on GPU this will make CPU focus on different things.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

GG : "Our boss is the best !!1"

 

[squidyj]

I would think my point is pretty obvious.

well either you're suggesting that they somehow need to bow down and target 60fps for your pleasure or you're suggesting that there's not enough hardware for them to do it.

neither of these are points related to bottlenecks. so I ask again, your point is?

 

[iceatcs]

it might be true, even some people (most MS fans like me) said it is overkill and should have reduce then nothing waste.

I will wait and see if GDDR5 is way too much for lower GPU.

 

[Limit]

1. It is APU so we don't know how it will work
2. Custom silicon to offload CPU (for example physic)
3. Closed box.

You can't compare it like that. Right now nr1 resource hog for CPU is physic. If physic will be done on GPU this will make CPU focus on different things.

Let me put it this way. If (a theoretical "if") there was more budget available in improving the PS4 hardware, it would be a no brainer for sony to replace the A10 CPU with mobile i5 or i7 in order to maximize the potential of 7970M.

 

[Triple U]

Im pretty sure the CPU is more than sufficient enough to do to its job. If you're worrying about flops for a CPU them you're doing it wrong.

 

[mavs]

it might be true, even some people (most MS fans like me) said it is overkill and should have reduce then nothing waste.

I will wait and see if GDDR5 is way too much for lower GPU.

You don't need to wait. It's not. GPUs as modest as the 4870 back in 2008 were using GDDR5.