Rran
Member
This... so much this.The "gaming lynch mob mentality" bullshit cracks me up. What is Twitter but if not a place for egotists to court the very same effect?
This... so much this.The "gaming lynch mob mentality" bullshit cracks me up. What is Twitter but if not a place for egotists to court the very same effect?
David, why did you ruin Twisted Metal. It makes me sad.
I consider him being fired a side victory for online etiquette.
The whole emergence of the phrase 'trolling' that anyone can use to hide behind when they say something stupid has been painful to watch.
This should make some people think twice.
It must be true because that one guy said it and you replied.See?!?!? This is why I cry 'lynch mob' mentality!!! Attack someone without knowing the facts- just make sure the story you want to be true can seem true. COME. THE. FUCK. ON!!!!!!
How am I out of touch with consumer's concerns?!?!
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
A- they didn't. He resigned.
B- I'm not saying GAF got the guy fired. I just said I agree with Cliff about the negativity of gaming's lynch mob mentality.
Adam was just trolling his friend but you've still got a vast majority of folks who seem to simply ignore this aspect. Makes it pretty obvious to me that many folks are just piling on (aka lynch mob)
See?!?!? This is why I cry 'lynch mob' mentality!!! Attack someone without knowing the facts- just make sure the story you want to be true can seem true. COME. THE. FUCK. ON!!!!!!
How am I out of touch with consumer's concerns?!?!
I don't think you should take offence to someone pointing out the ridiculous use hyperbole; he made a valid point.Then it's an attempt to ridicule by mixing hyperbole with forms of speech and genuine that quoted alone and in their full context are not as harmful as in the way he depicted? Should one take it as a personal attack when your opinion is being mixed with the opinion of others for the sake of satire?
What about the comments not directed at Manveer? Were those trolling? Adam made a lot of statements well before Manveer stepped in, Jaffe. They seemed pretty aimed at his Twitter followers... he knew what he was doing when he posted those.
There's trying to save face immediately after the fact by saying, "I was trolling guys!" and there's actually apologizing to the public by explicitly saying, "I'm sorry to all those I offended, I was joking about everything I said". He chose to do the former, which everyone chooses to ignore it because of how immediate it was and because it wasn't a serious way to apologize the ones he offended. He didn't take any time at all to think about what he said and instead chose to scapegoat by saying he was trolling...
How do you expect anyone, Jaffe, to take that seriously and as fact after what he just said a few comments prior to everyone that wasn't Manveer?
I don't think you should take offence to someone pointing out the ridiculous use hyperbole; he made a valid point.
Instead, if you were offended by it, then I would think that it would probably be a wise idea to tone down the hyperbole when trying to make a point.
It wasn't satire either by the way.
Did I say you were one example of an out of touch man? I think it's pretty clear I was explaining why someone takes the opinions of people they respect in such high regard, and why they feel disappointed when such opinions ignore basic facts.See?!?!? This is why I cry 'lynch mob' mentality!!! Attack someone without knowing the facts- just make sure the story you want to be true can seem true. COME. THE. FUCK. ON!!!!!!
How am I out of touch with consumer's concerns?!?!
That's one guy, not a mob. It's most likely a misunderstanding of when you said you agreed with parts of Cliff's post.
There was some real anti-consumer stuff in that post.
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
Agree with all you say except:
#1- He didn't break an NDA.
#2- I agree with Cliff that there is a lynch mob mentality that the gamer hive creates when it doesn't like something and there's just such a rare opportunity for shades of grey and discourse with the hive when that happens.
Did I say you were one example of an out of touch man? I think it's pretty clear I was explaining why someone takes the opinions of people they respect in such high regard, and why they feel disappointed when such opinions ignore basic facts.
Nowhere did I mention that yours was the case, and I don't think it is. But you seem to be extremely susceptible tonight, and right now are hearing only what you want to hear.
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
Then again I think of the devs people seem to like, and they all seem to have quite a character, like Kamiya who tells people to eat shit and makes us crack up. Do we really want people to be only on the bounds of professionalism? Or do we only want them when they say something that doesn't meet our tastes?
He is being attacked for what he stands for. If you want to lend him aid and comfort against that animosity you can't reasonably divorce yourself from the position that provoked the animosity in the first place. To do so would be to take the entire exchange out of context.You are under the impression- as others on this thread seem to be- that I feel NEOGAF is the tip of the anti-Orth spear. Most of the anti-Orth sentiment I've tracked has come from Twitter.
And I do see a lynch mob mentality in this, mostly because there has been enough news of this story where it was made clear where Adam was just trolling his friend but you've still got a vast majority of folks who seem to simply ignore this aspect. Makes it pretty obvious to me that many folks are just piling on (aka lynch mob).
Related: I get folks attacking my views of ALWAYS ONLINE whenever I call out the WAY folks have treated Orth. Given I've NEVER expressed support of ALWAYS ONLINE it makes the lynch mob accusation that Cliff was calling out seem pretty accurate to me. Lots of folks looking to support their narrative - in this case when it comes to Always On, a narrative I tend to think I agree with- to such a degree they are willing to ignore and toss out the facts that don't suit the story they want to be true. Very witch hunty/lynch mob to me.
I mean you could have tried to make a good game like Twisted Metal Black, but I guess that just wasn't your agenda?
Don't know about this ,David. I have school in the morning and you live far away. Can we lynch you on Sunday?For every 10 people who have responded tonite since I started engaging in this discussion (on here and my twitter) and saying I agreed with SOME Of what Cliff said, at LEAST 5 for every 10 people attacked me for being anti-consumer and saying my views of ALWAYS ONLINE were wrong,bad,stupid,evil.
However, I NEVER said I supported Always Online. And you know what? I don't.
But that doesn't stop 50+% of the posters from attacking me because they- without actually taking the time to read/take in the facts- feel I am pro ALWAYS ONLINE.
To me, this equals 'lynch mob'.
A large group of folks attacking Orth for being elitist in saying 'why on Earth would I live there' and refusing to take in the REPORTED FACT that in saying this he was taking the piss out of his friend and clearly didn't mean it= 'lynch mob'.
NOTE: When you say 'lynch mob' I think of Frankenstein/Beauty&The Beast,Frankenweenie when the villagers grabbed pitchforks and attacked the monster without really realizing that the creature had NOT harmed the girl but didn't bother to discover the facts before attacking.
What about the comments not directed at Manveer? Were those trolling? Adam made a lot of statements well before Manveer stepped in, Jaffe. They seemed pretty aimed at his Twitter followers... he knew what he was doing when he posted those.
There's trying to save face immediately after the fact by saying, "I was trolling guys!" and there's actually apologizing to the public by explicitly saying, "I'm sorry to all those I offended, I was joking about everything I said". He chose to do the former, which everyone chooses to ignore it because of how immediate it was and because it wasn't a serious way to apologize the ones he offended. He didn't take any time at all to think about what he said and instead chose to scapegoat by saying he was trolling...
How do you expect anyone, Jaffe, to take that seriously and as fact after what he just said a few comments prior to everyone that wasn't Manveer?
A- they didn't. He resigned.
B- I'm not saying GAF got the guy fired. I just said I agree with Cliff about the negativity of gaming's lynch mob mentality.
Read the post I quoted again. I NEVER mentioned you two. The guy I quoted asked why people give so much attention to some person's comments on the internet, for example Cliff's and yours. I replied that people tend to care about the things people they respect say, and that they don't like seeing them out of touch with their own concerns. "They" as in "people they respect", not "CliffyB and David Jaffe".Well yeah, you did. You mentioned me and Cliff and said we were out of touch with consumers.
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?
And I can see people being angry at his VIEW. Good for them. But I'm suggesting they should be able to separate that anger from the part of the statement where he was joking with his friend. I got ZERO issue with people disliking Adam for his ALWAYS ON views. I just think a lot of folks are so anti ALWAYS ON that they are letting that carry over into personal attacks (and using what was a friend troll as justification for doing so).
Of course. I mean that sometimes they disregard those concerns without giving them a second thought. Not every critic is valid, but they should be listened to and refuted with proper arguments. Not that "gamers are so entitled, deal with it" bullshit we've seen a couple of times.It's impossible to expect every consumer to have reasonable concerns, therefore it is impossible to expect every creator to be 'in-touch' with their concerns.
I'm not saying that decrying always-online is an unreasonable concern, just that to make such a grand sweeping statement is to be completely out of touch with reality...
Hyperbole can be exaggerated statements that are usually intended to make things look worse than they are. Comparing some guy losing his job because of comments he made representing his company on twitter to anything that goes on in 1984 is ridiculous, hence it is hyperbole. This guy could have posted absolutely anonymously without punishment, in 1984, he'd be watched 24 hours around the clock regardless.At this point i'm starting to believe there must be cultural differences.
Also, i'd like to be pointed out by someone as expert as yourself seem to be as to what part of my comparison was hyperbole, aside from the obvious magnitude of using a recognized novel as the base of comparison in a tiny little aspect.
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
Good to know. Funny when we're explicitly saying that GAF is "individuals", not a "collective"... then we proceed to make an individual collective collage.
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?
The "gaming lynch mob mentality" bullshit cracks me up. What is Twitter but if not a place for egotists to court the very same effect?
People put together strawman arguments all the god damn time. Why are you so surprise it happened to Orth?
What is pissing most people here off is, you and Cliffy are lumping us all together as this one big mean entity which we are not. We are individual accounts, minds, people and just because we all may feel the same way about something doesn't mean we all act in the same way.
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?
And I can see people being angry at his VIEW. Good for them. But I'm suggesting they should be able to separate that anger from the part of the statement where he was joking with his friend. I got ZERO issue with people disliking Adam for his ALWAYS ON views. I just think a lot of folks are so anti ALWAYS ON that they are letting that carry over into personal attacks (and using what was a friend troll as justification for doing so).
Nobody on gaf fucking knew who Adam Orth even was or give two shits about him, gaf didn't invite Adam Orth to give his fantastic insight into "always-on", it was Adam Orth who decided he wanted to inject his own opinion into the issue, and instead of having a civilized dialogue, it was Adam Orth who proceeded to act all snarky and shit.
There's no "lynch mob" mentality when Adam Orth decided it was a good idea for him to insult a whole group of people (those rural people with shitty internet connection) then going "oops shit I meant to rag on only my friend, right friend? *wink wink*", don't stick your head into a hornets nest and go rararararar with your tongue sticking out. It wasn't like gaf called Steve Ballmer and like "hello this is dog fire Adam Orth", he resigned. Adam Orth is a big boy, he fucked up, microsoft got rid of him, the end. Let's not make him out into some kind of gaf lynch mob victim, however fucking all powerful gaf is on the internet.
#2- I agree with Cliff that there is a lynch mob mentality that the gamer hive creates when it doesn't like something and there's just such a rare opportunity for shades of grey and discourse with the hive when that happens.
...
A- they didn't. He resigned.
B- I'm not saying GAF got the guy fired. I just said I agree with Cliff about the negativity of gaming's lynch mob mentality.
Hyperbole can be exaggerated statements that are usually intended to make things look worse than they are. Comparing some guy losing his job because of comments he made representing his company on twitter can hardly be compared to anything that goes on in 1984, hence it is hyperbole. This guy could have posted absolutely anonymously without punishment, in 1984, he'd be watched 24 hours around the clock regardless.
Similar hyperbole would be me comparing online only gaming to 1984. The ever watchful eye.
And I do see a lynch mob mentality in this, mostly because there has been enough news of this story where it was made clear where Adam was just trolling his friend but you've still got a vast majority of folks who seem to simply ignore this aspect. Makes it pretty obvious to me that many folks are just piling on (aka lynch mob).
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?
Like a post a few posts above where a guy actually thinks Orth was attacking rural players who didn't live in big cities. I mean, come on! He. Was. Joking.
But folks who want those things are not who Cliff was talking about. He was talking about a general sense of piling on in this case and in other cases. If you are not one of those folks who does that, GREAT! I love that!
Okay, yes, there's a misinterpretation going on there, sure. So people are using the wrong comments he made as justification to be mad.
Would you, then, feel better at all if people used the actual comments that weren't directed at Manveer to justify their anger?
Like, here, the VERRRRY top statement.
He definitely used "deal with it" way before Manveer came in. That's what people are mad about, plus some of the other comments he made that weren't directed at Manveer. Couple the #dealwithit comment above and the analogies + other statements directed at the *public* (not Manveer, none of the analogy statements have @ManveerHeir) and thus can be taken seriously.
That's why there was all that #dealwithit going around.
Also, stop shouting always online, it's rude!
I am NOT lumping you all into anything.
You want to have an actual discussion about the facts? Cool.
You want to aid me in shifting my perspective and perhaps in doing so bring me over to your way of thinking? My mind is open.
But folks who want those things are not who Cliff was talking about. He was talking about a general sense of piling on in this case and in other cases. If you are not one of those folks who does that, GREAT! I love that!
But just because you are not, you must admit there IS a mob mentality among fans in general, be it games (XBOX VS PS), movies (STAR WARS V. STAR TREK) and SPORTS (if I was not a geek I could give you some team rivalries ...AUBURN v. ALABAMA?!? " and sometimes it can get very dirty and mean.
Like a post a few posts above where a guy actually thinks Orth was attacking rural players who didn't live in big cities. I mean, come on! He. Was. Joking.
Honestly, who gives a shit what one Microsoft employee said to a colleague on twitter?
Didn't have much respect for CliffyB, but if I did, I would have lost it by now.
Did he really just blame the Internet for Orth's idiotic missteps?
Did he really just call the people who don't like always-online pirates?
Yes and yes.
Again though, there's really no parallels to 1984; in 1984 he'd be disappeared and you'd never hear from the guy again because he'd be dead. The guy had the freedom to say whatever he wanted, and the public had the freedom to express their distaste at that opinion. The problem in this situation, is that Adam's free speech most likely broke one of the NDAs he had signed for his job.Yeah, but then again that was not my point. My point is that you have to be posting in a recognizable manner of course. The fact that I left out such an obvious detail is because I felt it was too obvious that I was talking about how a society based on freedom of speech is highly constrained when doing so as themselves (not anonymous).
And as I said before that one we've been talking about so much was made, I simply tried to explain that people are unaware that piling up all the leftovers from people that post as themselves you can probably get quite some information. And that some users seem to be making that detective work. Sometimes for bad, sometimes for good. That's obviously a subjective matter.
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
b- I get you can disagree with his FIRST statement. I get Orth was even being smarmy with the #deawithit hash and deserved some push back. But I don't think- if we are talking about the pre-Manveer comments- what he said and how he said it deserved anything more than a spirited discourse and push back against the guy. But not this.